--- Log opened Mon Jun 26 00:00:14 2017
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20170626 01:39:56< irker101> wesnoth: Allefant wesnoth:master c17d556016a2 / data/tools/ (unit_tree/update-wmlunits wmlunits): [units.wesnoth.org] fix eras with all eras in an addon https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c17d556016a28dd58b9d4efeb737c7a20415fce7
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20170626 01:53:16< celticminstrel> shadowm: Eh? Why not?
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20170626 01:55:37< shadowm> There's only supposed to be one top-level heading in wiki pages, and that's the page title.
20170626 01:55:48< shadowm> It's also uniquely styled accordingly.
20170626 01:56:04< celticminstrel> shadowm: So then it's a design flaw.
20170626 01:56:22< celticminstrel> If you're not supposed to use H1, them surely =foobar= should produce H2.
20170626 01:56:24< celticminstrel> ^then
20170626 01:56:40< shadowm> Sure, but I'm the wrong person to complain to about it.
20170626 01:57:37< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: For the first, my thought was that it should be postponed, but whether that means 1.14.1 or 1.15.0, I'm not sure. For the second, yes I did.
20170626 01:57:42< celticminstrel> shadowm: Yeah, of course.
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20170626 16:52:30< zookeeper> ""You may now recruit Cavalrymen. They are fast and deadly on grassland, but weak in forests and hills." ... well actually they have the exact same defense on hills as on flat -.-
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20170626 17:31:26< irker567> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 0330304e4faa / data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/03_A_Desparate_Errand.cfg: TSG S03: Improve hint about Cavalryman movement and defense https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0330304e4faadf379787d5553e6e629fcfc5927a
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20170626 20:52:08< zookeeper> oi. the leader of an ai_algorithm=idle_ai side still moves.
20170626 20:54:08< zookeeper> essentially breaking EI:11 as per https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46472 and no one has reported it before for at least 2 releases
20170626 20:56:07< DeFender1031> :o
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20170626 22:03:41< DeFender1031> I think I found an odd bug (in latest master) and I'm not sure what to make of it. I have a [message] followed by a [remove_shroud] with a filter for a specific unit, followed by an [animate_unit] with a custom animation on that unit, followed by a [remove_shroud] with no filter, folowed by another [animate_unit] on the same unit. If the message is dismissed immediately, everything works as expected, but if the message is 
20170626 22:03:42< DeFender1031> left on the screen for a while, the entire shroud is removed immediately and only the second animation plays. In addition if the message is left for less time than the first animation takes to run, then it will show part of the first animation. It seems as though for some reason, the first animation's timing is somehow being performed while the message is still onscreen (and despite not actually appearing). This sounds 
20170626 22:03:44< DeFender1031> somewhat similar to the bug vultraz_iOS had in the AR branch, but like I said, this is in master.
20170626 22:04:10< vultraz_iOS> which bug?
20170626 22:05:23< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, where actions were continuing during dialogs.
20170626 22:06:03< zookeeper> possibly the message bug; if it is, then adding a [delay] time=1 right after the message will fix it
20170626 22:06:06< DeFender1031> though here, only two of the actions continue, then the rest wait for the dialog to be dismissed, and obviously are not actually animating behind the dialog, since the rendering doesn't allow for that in master.
20170626 22:06:17< DeFender1031> zookeeper, "the message bug"?
20170626 22:06:18< zookeeper> that is, animations and stuff which come after a message get mangled
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20170626 22:06:53< zookeeper> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1617
20170626 22:07:14< zookeeper> or it might be something else. but sounds like your problem more or less fits the description.
20170626 22:07:18< DeFender1031> ugh. I don't like having to put in extraneous code to work around engine bugs.
20170626 22:07:26< DeFender1031> I'm testing that now...
20170626 22:07:39< zookeeper> that was just for confirming, not as a permanent workaround :p
20170626 22:07:42< DeFender1031> yep, that fixed it.
20170626 22:07:47< DeFender1031> ah
20170626 22:08:01< zookeeper> let us rejoice and blame vultraz
20170626 22:08:08< DeFender1031> well, we could always modify the [message] tag to automatically do a delay 1 afterward :P
20170626 22:08:14< vultraz_iOS> with the new message implementation there's a weird side effect where two messages by the same speaker display without any "flash" between them
20170626 22:08:20< vultraz_iOS> which I think is good
20170626 22:08:31< vultraz_iOS> but it sounds like a side effect of whatever this issue is
20170626 22:08:48< zookeeper> which is why you don't want to add the automatic delay, but neither have you suggested how to fix the problem in other ways :p
20170626 22:09:04< vultraz_iOS> because I know everything :|
20170626 22:09:41 * DeFender1031 joins zookeeper in the rejoicing, and levies strong rebukes upon the evil vultraz, Breaker of Things.
20170626 22:10:07< vultraz_iOS> also I no longer intend to fix any such bugs in master
20170626 22:10:42< vultraz_iOS> graphical bugs will be fixed on a_r as appropriate
20170626 22:10:45< DeFender1031> Oh dear. I think I've created a monster.
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20170626 22:11:27< zookeeper> uh... so are you now somehow magically planning on having a_r in 1.14?
20170626 22:11:41< vultraz_iOS> I'm leaning towards it, yes
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20170626 22:12:12< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, when I sent you what I've done and said that we needed graphical performance fixed, I didn't mean that bugs with the current graphics engine should be ignored...
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20170626 22:12:44< vultraz_iOS> but my branch will fix those bugs ;_;
20170626 22:12:46< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, if that's the case, do you have any idea when AR will be stable enough to merge back in?
20170626 22:13:04< vultraz_iOS> dunno
20170626 22:13:14< zookeeper> well, i guess that means you won't object to someone else adding in an automatic delay after a message as an interim solution, then
20170626 22:13:24< DeFender1031> this is a common problem.
20170626 22:13:31< vultraz_iOS> I'm right now on a tangent to convert the main game UI to GUI2 because it's easier than working with the old code
20170626 22:13:41< zookeeper> DeFender1031, "dunno" is a common problem? :>
20170626 22:14:24< DeFender1031> zookeeper, no, I'm referring to the balance between maintaining old code and doing a large rewrite which will obsolete that old code.
20170626 22:15:21< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I've learned the hard way that in ^^^^ case, you can't just ignore the old code unless you really know that the rewrite will be done in a reasonable enough amount of time to make fixing the bugs in the existing code not worth it.
20170626 22:15:36< vultraz_iOS> It will be done.
20170626 22:15:50< vultraz_iOS> I've already made much progress
20170626 22:16:12< DeFender1031> I'm not doubting that. I'm saying that the amount of time such a thing takes is also a factor in whether to maintain the old code or not.
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20170626 22:16:43< Soliton> 80% of progress is done in 20% of the time.
20170626 22:16:46< DeFender1031> Quite frankly, I see this issue on the larger scale in the form of 1.12 not being maintained anymore.
20170626 22:17:07< vultraz_iOS> No one wants to work with the absolute mess that is the 1.12 codebase
20170626 22:17:25< vultraz_iOS> SDL 1.2 :(
20170626 22:17:57< Soliton> sometimes one wonders how wesnoth got this far. it's a miracle it doesn't crash every 5 minutes.
20170626 22:18:28< DeFender1031> In general, it's a good idea to have whatever your current stable release is continue to be maintained until the next stable release is put out. Leaving a trail of unmaintained code in your wake as you push toward perfection sounds nice in theory, but experience has taught me that in practice, it ends up creating a lot of technical debt and unhappy users.
20170626 22:19:03< DeFender1031> Soliton, depending on which commit, sometimes it does.
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20170626 22:19:56< Soliton> sure.
20170626 22:20:00< vultraz_iOS> DeFender1031: now, is this bug present on my branch?
20170626 22:20:01< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, yeah, so that's the other problem. Cleaning up ugly code is... ugly.
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20170626 22:20:36< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I can switch and see, but your branch had so many graphical glitches the last time I checked that I may not even be able to tell.
20170626 22:20:47< vultraz_iOS> ah, yes..
20170626 22:20:53< vultraz_iOS> I have no idea what causes those
20170626 22:21:22< zookeeper> they will be fixed, so no worries
20170626 22:22:18< DeFender1031> without the sarcasm, that comment raises the same concern in me that zookeeper seems to have.
20170626 22:22:46< DeFender1031> If you have no idea what's causingthe glitches, how can you be sure that they'll be fixed in any reasonable amount of time to get AR stable?
20170626 22:23:10< vultraz_iOS> by having more testers and/or people working on the branch
20170626 22:23:30< zookeeper> vultraz_iOS, would it be improper to inquire as to who have you consulted on whether it makes sense to bet everything on the hopes that you can get a_r done in a timely manner and actually stable for everyone?
20170626 22:23:38< vultraz_iOS> also god dammit gfgtdf's resolution changes messing things up again
20170626 22:24:24< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: i haven't really discussed it 
20170626 22:26:23< vultraz_iOS> honestly, I feel the question is less about time and whether 1.13 is good enough as-is
20170626 22:27:14< vultraz_iOS> reports indicate it is not
20170626 22:27:36< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, all I can do is attempt to offer you the wisdom of experience. It's up to you whether to follow my advice or not, but all of my years of experience tell me that it would be a good idea to not completely abandoning the existing codebase until after AR is stable. I have made that exact mistake in my own real-life career and it cost me and those who depended on me dearly. I hope you can learn from my mistake.
20170626 22:28:14< vultraz_iOS> Point
20170626 22:28:20< vultraz_iOS> But other people are working on master
20170626 22:29:07< DeFender1031> True, but if a glitch that exists in master is the result of code you worked on, it'll be tougher for others to try to correct it. No one knows a piece of code as well as the person who wrote it.
20170626 22:29:27< DeFender1031> To put it bluntly, it's better for everyone if you clean up your own mess.
20170626 22:29:43< vultraz_iOS> Well
20170626 22:29:52< vultraz_iOS> I wasn't the one who wrote the new [message] implementation :P
20170626 22:30:02< DeFender1031> zookeeper seemed to indicate you were.
20170626 22:30:36< DeFender1031> I suppose I must have misinterpreted the "blame vultraz" comment.
20170626 22:30:54< zookeeper> he just doesn't want the automatic delay because that causes the 1-frame flicker between successive messages
20170626 22:31:44< DeFender1031> Ah. Well, the flicker isn't idea, but it's better than what's happening without it.
20170626 22:31:46< vultraz_iOS> celmin wrote the new message code
20170626 22:32:18< DeFender1031> Look, forget I brought up the "clean up your own mess" thing. It's just going to lead to finger pointing which is really not going to be productive.
20170626 22:32:30< vultraz_iOS> No, no, I get your point
20170626 22:32:41< vultraz_iOS> and it's true that only the write knows code best
20170626 22:32:59< vultraz_iOS> But that's exactly what I mean - celmin could fix it because he knows it better
20170626 22:33:17< DeFender1031> My main point stands, which is that an existing codebase should not be abandoned until its replacement code has feature parity with no regressions.
20170626 22:33:25< vultraz_iOS> I'm not going to put time figuring out something I don't understand when I could fix it better on my branch
20170626 22:34:07< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, and that's fair, I'm not talking about this one glitch, which I will now pester celmin about, I'm talking about the comment where you said you're not fixing anything on master anymore.
20170626 22:35:14< vultraz_iOS> I said "any such" bugs
20170626 22:35:18< vultraz_iOS> ie, visual bugs
20170626 22:35:28< DeFender1031> You're splitting hairs...
20170626 22:35:49< vultraz_iOS> Obviously I'm not going to never work on master again :|
20170626 22:35:52< vultraz_iOS> That would be foolish
20170626 22:36:14< DeFender1031> Again, you're free to reject my advice. I just want to make sure that you understand what I'm saying and why before making that decision.
20170626 22:36:34< vultraz_iOS> Like this bug: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1563
20170626 22:36:38< vultraz_iOS> it's fixed on my branch
20170626 22:36:44< vultraz_iOS> am I going to work on fixing it in master? no
20170626 22:37:40< zookeeper> don't even need to pester celmin about the message thing, it's a trivial fix which i simply never committed before because of aforementioned objection
20170626 22:38:50< DeFender1031> and what about all the other glitches that you do have on your branch? At the moment, your branch has far more graphical issues than master. Is it better code and a more solid foundation? Of that I have no doubt. Is it worth forsaking something which is, for the moment, superior in terms of end result? Well, as I said, that's for you to decide, but my experience tells me "no".
20170626 22:39:08< DeFender1031> zookeeper, that's a hack though, not a proper fix.
20170626 22:39:20< vultraz_iOS> Which is exactly why it's on a *branch*
20170626 22:40:15< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, what does it being on a branch have to do with it?
20170626 22:40:41< vultraz_iOS> If I really wanted to say "fuck master" I'd merge it right now and make everyone work on fixing issues with it
20170626 22:41:04< DeFender1031> there are varying levels of "fuck master"...
20170626 22:41:29< DeFender1031> if you really wanted to say "fuck 1.12" you could take down the 1.12 download and force everyone to use 1.13
20170626 22:41:48< DeFender1031> that doesn't mean that not continuing to maintain it isn't a lesser level of "fuck 1.12"
20170626 22:43:19< zookeeper> DeFender1031, well, sure, you might want to try to ask celmin whether a "proper fix" is even possible in that current framework.
20170626 22:44:53< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, anyway, at this point, I think I've made my point, and I get the sense anything further I say on this topic at the moment is going to feel like nagging (if it isn't already, in which case, I apologize). You've heard what I had to say, and I would encourage you to ruminate on it. Perhaps in a couple of days I'll share with you via PM some more specifics of the story I mentioned earlier about how I did something 
20170626 22:44:55< DeFender1031> similar and cost people dearly.
20170626 22:46:22< DeFender1031> zookeeper, also a fair point.
20170626 22:46:47< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, as to this specific glitch, you are correct, it does not occur in your branch.
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20170626 22:50:39< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, btw, I don't mean to sound like the AR branch is a bad idea. I agree with you that it's ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to have AR, and I can't wait until it's stable enough to actually use. (And I mean literally, I can't wait. I can't really develop my campaign with 1.13 in the state it's currently in.) I just think that until and unless it's really going to be ready for merging next week, master should still get some care 
20170626 22:50:41< DeFender1031> in the interim. That's all.
20170626 22:52:07< DeFender1031> Anyway, I'm off to bed. Talk to you all later.
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--- Log closed Tue Jun 27 00:00:15 2017