--- Log opened Tue Jun 27 00:00:15 2017
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20170627 01:36:20< sevu> zookeeper, so that was a bug with idle_ai still moving. I had an issue with it too, but happened only 2-3 times and I couldn't reproduce it, thought I made a mistake on my part.
20170627 01:38:22< shadowm> vultraz_iOS: Sorry, but the real reason no-one wants to maintain 1.12 is that most people here can't be bothered to backport patches.
20170627 01:38:40< shadowm> This was the case with 1.10 vs. 1.11 and 1.8 vs. 1.9 and 1.6 vs 1.7 and 1.4 vs 1.5.
20170627 01:38:57< shadowm> SDL 1.2 is a really flimsy excuse for anything in that regard.
20170627 01:41:58< celticminstrel> Given that most bugs probably don't depend on the SDL version, yeah...
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20170627 03:52:12< vultraz_iOS> god dammit...
20170627 03:52:30< vultraz_iOS> what's the difference between a display mode and output siz
20170627 03:52:30< vultraz_iOS> e
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20170627 03:55:26< celticminstrel> Oh hi vultraz.
20170627 03:55:38< celticminstrel> Context?
20170627 03:55:42< vultraz_iOS> SDL
20170627 03:55:47< celticminstrel> So descriptive.
20170627 03:57:31< vultraz_iOS> trying to figure out that bug where the resolutions are selected wrong in prefs
20170627 03:58:07< celticminstrel> Are you back on master?
20170627 03:58:10< vultraz_iOS> no
20170627 03:58:12< celticminstrel> Aww.
20170627 03:58:28< celticminstrel> I have no idea what an output size is from this context.
20170627 04:00:15< vultraz_iOS> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GetRendererOutputSize
20170627 04:00:20< vultraz_iOS> and there's this
20170627 04:00:20< vultraz_iOS> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GL_GetDrawableSize
20170627 04:00:32< vultraz_iOS> and this
20170627 04:00:32< vultraz_iOS> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GetWindowSize
20170627 04:00:38< celticminstrel> Well the first one's obviously about a renderer.
20170627 04:00:42< vultraz_iOS> wait ignore the second one
20170627 04:00:51< vultraz_iOS> and there's this 
20170627 04:00:51< celticminstrel> So I guess it would be the size of the texture being rendered to.
20170627 04:00:51< vultraz_iOS> https://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_GetCurrentDisplayMode
20170627 04:01:20< celticminstrel> Window size seems pretty obvious to me.
20170627 04:01:31< vultraz_iOS> what is "resolution", then
20170627 04:01:33< vultraz_iOS> window size?
20170627 04:01:37< vultraz_iOS> window density?
20170627 04:01:40< vultraz_iOS> renderer size?
20170627 04:01:41< vultraz_iOS> display mode?
20170627 04:01:43< celticminstrel> ?
20170627 04:01:43< vultraz_iOS> who knows!
20170627 04:02:15< vultraz_iOS> if you had a function current_resolution
20170627 04:02:19< vultraz_iOS> what would you expect it to return
20170627 04:02:57< celticminstrel> I guess the first two are wrong for high-DPI screens (according to the third).
20170627 04:03:10< vultraz_iOS> i don't even know anymore
20170627 04:03:13< celticminstrel> The display mode seems to include additional info besides the size.
20170627 04:03:37< celticminstrel> But it seems like that info does describe the resolution...
20170627 04:03:38< vultraz_iOS> SDL_GetRendererOutputSize does return 3k pixel size if i turn off DPI virtlization
20170627 04:04:15< celticminstrel> I think what I'd suggest is to try both window size and display mode and see which one gives the desired result.
20170627 04:04:56< celticminstrel> The desired result should of course be the same size passed when you resized the window or changed the resolution or whatever.
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20170627 04:05:28< vultraz_iOS> so you say the resolution should be window size
20170627 04:05:35< vultraz_iOS> including decor
20170627 04:06:51< vultraz_iOS> Current res: output size: 1536, 801, display mode size: 1536, 864
20170627 04:07:22< vultraz_iOS> I don't even know what reslution is supposed to be anymore
20170627 04:07:27< vultraz_iOS> in this era of DPI
20170627 04:08:25< celticminstrel> No, it shouldn't include window decor.
20170627 04:08:43 * vultraz_iOS flips
20170627 04:09:38< celticminstrel> ...
20170627 04:09:44< celticminstrel> That should be obvious, right?
20170627 04:09:58< vultraz_iOS> I don't know! there are so many functions here
20170627 04:10:02< celticminstrel> When you request a size from SDL, that's also excluding the window decor.
20170627 04:10:15< celticminstrel> I would suspect though that all sizes SDL gives you exclude the window decor.
20170627 04:18:25< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:18:25< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:18:25< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 1536, 864
20170627 04:18:25< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:19:02< vultraz_iOS> that's w/ DPI vert
20170627 04:19:05< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:19:05< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 3840, 2004
20170627 04:19:05< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 3840, 2160
20170627 04:19:05< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 3840, 2004
20170627 04:19:06< vultraz_iOS> w/o
20170627 04:21:27< celticminstrel> Not very helpful...
20170627 04:21:33< vultraz_iOS> hmm
20170627 04:21:35< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:21:35< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:21:35< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 1536, 864
20170627 04:21:35< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:21:35< vultraz_iOS>         Usable display bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 1537, h: 865
20170627 04:21:38< celticminstrel> What about when you set it to 800x600?
20170627 04:22:01< vultraz_iOS> lmao
20170627 04:22:11< vultraz_iOS> if i do that, the HIGHRESOLUTION PANELS GET USED ON THE TITLESCREEN
20170627 04:22:14< vultraz_iOS> GFGTDF WHAT HAVE YOU DONE
20170627 04:22:21< celticminstrel> ???
20170627 04:22:39< vultraz_iOS> actually he probably fixed that already
20170627 04:22:40< vultraz_iOS> nvm
20170627 04:22:48< celticminstrel> I dunno.
20170627 04:22:51< celticminstrel> What do you mean?
20170627 04:22:59< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:22:59< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 800, 600
20170627 04:22:59< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 1536, 864
20170627 04:22:59< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 800, 600
20170627 04:22:59< vultraz_iOS>         Usable display bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 1537, h: 865
20170627 04:23:35< celticminstrel> Is that the same with and without virtualization?
20170627 04:23:58< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:23:58< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 800, 600
20170627 04:23:58< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 3840, 2160
20170627 04:23:58< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 800, 600
20170627 04:23:58< vultraz_iOS>         Usable display bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 3840, h: 2060
20170627 04:24:43< celticminstrel> Seems like window size is a good choice.
20170627 04:24:50< celticminstrel> But what about in fullscreen?
20170627 04:24:57< vultraz_iOS> fullscreen is its own mess
20170627 04:25:02< celticminstrel> Well okay.
20170627 04:25:32< vultraz_iOS> So it seems window size and render output size are the same
20170627 04:25:36< vultraz_iOS> i wonder if that's ever not true
20170627 04:26:07< vultraz_iOS> "The window size in screen coordinates may differ from the size in pixels, if the window was created with SDL_WINDOW_ALLOW_HIGHDPI on a platform with high-dpi support (e.g. iOS or OS X). Use SDL_GL_GetDrawableSize() or SDL_GetRendererOutputSize() to get the real client area size in pixels."
20170627 04:26:22< vultraz_iOS> so maybe I do want to keep using SDL_GetRendererOutputSize?
20170627 04:27:08< celticminstrel> Probably not? It sounds too low-level to me.
20170627 04:27:50< vultraz_iOS> well, first let me get this bug fixed then I'll deal with that..
20170627 04:29:01< vultraz_iOS> honestly I think using display modes at all is the wrong way to go here
20170627 04:29:08< vultraz_iOS> it seems to have something to do with desktop
20170627 04:29:13< vultraz_iOS> not... the app window
20170627 04:29:37< celticminstrel> It sounds like display mode is also dependent on DPI.
20170627 04:30:13< vultraz_iOS> well, we might want that, but...
20170627 04:31:32< celticminstrel> We don't want the application to behave substantially different depending on whether DPI virtualization is enabled.
20170627 04:32:25< vultraz_iOS> ok, I need an appropriate check here for...
20170627 04:32:36< vultraz_iOS> I guess max maximized side
20170627 04:32:37< vultraz_iOS> so..
20170627 04:32:45< vultraz_iOS> do I want GetCurrentDisplayMode..
20170627 04:32:45< vultraz_iOS> or..
20170627 04:32:53< vultraz_iOS> GetDisplayUsableBounds...
20170627 04:32:59< vultraz_iOS> probably bounds
20170627 04:33:16< vultraz_iOS> actually, let me check ...
20170627 04:34:28< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:34:29< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:34:29< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 1536, 864
20170627 04:34:29< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 1536, 801
20170627 04:34:29< vultraz_iOS>         Display Bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 1537, h: 865
20170627 04:34:29< vultraz_iOS>         Usable display bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 1537, h: 865
20170627 04:34:37< celticminstrel> I'd assume that clicking the "maximize" button would send a resize event with the appropriate size.
20170627 04:34:51< vultraz_iOS> ok that doesn't...help
20170627 04:34:52< celticminstrel> Window size is probably right here, too, I guess.
20170627 04:35:02< celticminstrel> Display mode size is probably too high.
20170627 04:35:12< vultraz_iOS> Current res:
20170627 04:35:12< vultraz_iOS>         Render output size: 3840, 2004
20170627 04:35:12< vultraz_iOS>         Display mode size: 3840, 2160
20170627 04:35:12< vultraz_iOS>         Window size: 3840, 2004
20170627 04:35:12< vultraz_iOS>         Display Bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 3840, h: 2160
20170627 04:35:13< vultraz_iOS>         Usable display bounds: x: 0, y: 0, w: 3840, h: 2060
20170627 04:35:19< celticminstrel> I have no idea why some of those are one pixel different.
20170627 04:35:41< vultraz_iOS> ok this kinda confirms what I thought
20170627 04:35:52< vultraz_iOS> display mode size == display bounds
20170627 04:35:57< vultraz_iOS> so I want usable bounds for this
20170627 04:40:19< celticminstrel> I dunno.
20170627 04:40:22< celticminstrel> Maybe.
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20170627 04:40:26< celticminstrel> Try it, I guess.
20170627 04:44:05< vultraz_iOS> to be safe I'm switching to get_size
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20170627 06:25:59< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering 037adf1f377b / data/gui/widget/panel_box_display.cfg: GUI2/Panel: remove border from small-res box_display_no_blur_no_border definitio https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/037adf1f377b89663a4f61fd22787103e155fe5c
20170627 06:26:02< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering f2b5d503cc2d / src/floating_label.cpp: Floating Label: formatting update https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f2b5d503cc2d1e94a55ac2ec9621c2ff605205d0
20170627 06:26:05< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering 27cf9e268927 / src/ (floating_label.cpp floating_label.hpp): Refactored floating_label implementation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/27cf9e268927cb531d31c529d33da428ec537587
20170627 06:26:08< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering 254d41244a25 / src/display.cpp: Display: restrict render clip rect setter to map drawing scope only https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/254d41244a2520b53e9017b6bbd24bd9cf72d871
20170627 06:26:11< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering 99f52d01e974 / src/tooltips.cpp: Fixup the floating label commit https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/99f52d01e9747b4a7b922be2b1ce6923006b3dcb
20170627 06:26:14< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering 7aa79c38168d / src/ (sdl/window.cpp sdl/window.hpp video.cpp): Fixed some issues with the resolution list (fixes #1772) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7aa79c38168d2e41616dae1c34cbe26c41e5bc34
20170627 06:32:01< irker234> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering d5058ca3155b / src/video.cpp: CVideo: create window with high DPI enabled https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d5058ca3155b70ccd1ce8b7c8b464129aa3fbd89
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20170627 07:40:05< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/247389718
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20170627 08:31:00< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#14366 (accelerated_rendering - d5058ca : Charles Dang): The build has errored.
20170627 08:31:00< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/247391041
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20170627 09:15:53< irker234> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master 9ea55226501d / data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/ (05_Choice_In_The_Fog.cfg 07a_Into_the_Depths.cfg): TSG: Fixed Ethiliel's premature mentions of Mebrin's turning https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/9ea55226501de2004515977e2d8d8d3ed0206157
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20170627 10:18:25< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: is this the sam eissue defender was talking about earlier? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1617
20170627 10:18:38< zookeeper> yes
20170627 10:18:52< zookeeper> and the one i was talking about, and you, and... :p
20170627 10:18:53< vultraz_iOS> ok, marking as fixed on my branch based on his test
20170627 10:30:16< DeFender1031> hey vultraz_iOS. Sorry if I came off as condescending or in any way antagonistic last night.
20170627 10:30:52< vultraz_iOS> Nah, you didn't
20170627 10:31:00< vultraz_iOS> I got you were simply emphasizing your point
20170627 10:31:36< DeFender1031> Good. I'm never quite sure how people read my tone via text-only.
20170627 10:31:55< vultraz_iOS> indeed, that is a general problem
20170627 10:31:58< vultraz_iOS> with text communication
20170627 10:32:10< vultraz_iOS> that's why emojis are good :P
20170627 10:34:43< DeFender1031> They tend to work during lighter communication, but where there's more nuance, there isn't really, for example, a universal "genial yet with conviction" emoji.
20170627 10:35:49< DeFender1031> Anyway, vultraz_iOS, most of the bugs I'm noticing in AR are layering issues.
20170627 10:36:18< vultraz_iOS> Indeed
20170627 10:36:26< vultraz_iOS> I basically threw out the draw layering system
20170627 10:36:49< vultraz_iOS> Haven't really decided how to re-implement it
20170627 10:36:53< DeFender1031> For example, the thrones on dwarvish keeps are appearing above units, [item] images are as well (IIRC, [item] halos are supposed to do so, but the images aren't)
20170627 10:37:01< DeFender1031> ah
20170627 10:37:13< DeFender1031> So if there isn't really layering code yet, that'd explain it.
20170627 10:37:31< vultraz_iOS> right now layering is just going by the order in code
20170627 10:37:41< DeFender1031> right. I got that as soon as you said that.
20170627 10:38:14< vultraz_iOS> How is performance in general?
20170627 10:38:27< vultraz_iOS> as you poke about
20170627 10:38:49< DeFender1031> In AR? Mostly wonderful aside from the cache-loading thing we discussed last week.
20170627 10:38:58< vultraz_iOS> good, good
20170627 10:39:11< vultraz_iOS> any drawing issues with the UI/dialogs?
20170627 10:39:15< DeFender1031> Though I noticed a somewhat strange bug in the story sequence with my fade.
20170627 10:39:17< vultraz_iOS> (not counting in-game UI)
20170627 10:39:49< vultraz_iOS> if you're referring to the fact that the in-game sidebar image "leaks" through, I've seen it but don't know the cause :/
20170627 10:40:16< DeFender1031> There seems to be a gradient for the top 100 px or so that fades to black, but then fades away as the subsequent fade-in images are loaded.
20170627 10:40:26< DeFender1031> That may not be a very clear description of what I'm seeing...
20170627 10:40:35< vultraz_iOS> ah yes
20170627 10:40:40< DeFender1031> Perhaps i should grab screenshots, unless you can see it on your end.
20170627 10:40:41< vultraz_iOS> got it
20170627 10:40:46< vultraz_iOS> no, I know what you mean
20170627 10:40:48< DeFender1031> Oh, you know what I'm talking about?
20170627 10:40:50< DeFender1031> Great.
20170627 10:41:47< DeFender1031> It's not terribly intrusive, but it's also clearly not supposed to be there.
20170627 10:42:01< vultraz_iOS> it is supposed to be
20170627 10:42:11< vultraz_iOS> what it's NOT supposed to do is vanish
20170627 10:43:04< vultraz_iOS> as for size, it actually is exactly 100 pixels :P
20170627 10:44:46< DeFender1031> why is it supposed to be there?
20170627 10:45:19< vultraz_iOS> little gradient to make the backgrounds feel less flat
20170627 10:45:27< DeFender1031> hmm...
20170627 10:45:30< DeFender1031> That's fair.
20170627 10:46:29< DeFender1031> I'm not sure whether I think it's better with it than without, but I am sure that I really don't care enough to argue over it, so long as it doesn't make itself conspicuous by disappearing with a fade. :P
20170627 10:46:50< vultraz_iOS> it's another layering thing
20170627 10:47:51< DeFender1031> Meaning, I could imagine cases where it could be intrusive (even as intended), but it doesn't really bother me to have it there either.
20170627 10:47:54< DeFender1031> ah
20170627 10:47:59< DeFender1031> that makes sense actually
20170627 10:48:38< DeFender1031> if that's supposed to always remain the top layer and instead it's getting put on top of the background but none of the subsequent images, then each one that fades in with a slightly higher opacity would make it fade out.
20170627 10:48:47< DeFender1031> or APPEAR to fade out, anyway.
20170627 10:48:57< DeFender1031> as it's really the images on top of it fading IN.
20170627 10:49:01< DeFender1031> but yeah, that makes sense.
20170627 10:49:24< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like AR is mostly working aside from the layering and resolution issues?
20170627 10:53:49< vultraz_iOS> no
20170627 10:53:54< vultraz_iOS> *scrolling is borked
20170627 10:54:01< vultraz_iOS> *in-game UI not converted
20170627 10:54:05< vultraz_iOS> *help browser totally broken
20170627 10:54:15< DeFender1031> ah.
20170627 10:54:30< DeFender1031> Haven't actually attempted to do any of those things :P
20170627 10:55:41< vultraz_iOS> in-game UI is especially frustrating 
20170627 11:00:27< DeFender1031> why's that?
20170627 11:01:20< vultraz_iOS> I either have to refactor the messy system that we have or convert it to GUI2 which has its own problems
20170627 11:02:52< DeFender1031> I thought the whole point of GUI2 was to have fewer problems?
20170627 11:03:25< vultraz_iOS> heh
20170627 11:03:41< vultraz_iOS> in the areas where that is true, yes
20170627 11:03:49< vultraz_iOS> but there are some things GUI2 makes more complicated
20170627 11:04:04< DeFender1031> fair.
20170627 11:07:47< vultraz_iOS> plus there's a layering problem :P
20170627 11:15:48< DeFender1031> Well, yes. But that part'll probably fix itself once you fix it for everything else.
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20170627 12:14:27< vultraz_iOS> Honestly, while I'm satisfied with the progress I'm making i'm also a bit disappointed
20170627 12:14:44< DeFender1031> in what way?
20170627 12:14:50< vultraz_iOS> Until I really get into OGL directly we can't have stuff like animated fog
20170627 12:15:24< vultraz_iOS> I had kinda thought accelerated rendering = Magic VFX Everywhere
20170627 12:16:01< vultraz_iOS> But for the most part, the visible results once this is done will be basically performance and code wise only
20170627 12:16:08< vultraz_iOS> the game won't actually *look* better
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20170627 12:17:22< vultraz_iOS> and to make it look better I need to do even *more*
20170627 12:17:28< vultraz_iOS> It's a little bit frustrating
20170627 12:22:21< vultraz_iOS> BUT
20170627 12:22:27< vultraz_iOS> To get there this must first be done
20170627 12:22:37< vultraz_iOS> Just like the SDL2 transition needed to be done
20170627 12:25:15< DeFender1031> I'd argue that performance, though less in-your-face, is still an aspect of looking better.
20170627 12:27:02< DeFender1031> But yeah, you're not going to get Magic VFX Everywhere without actually coding them...
20170627 12:27:42< DeFender1031> (There's also going to be the interesting hurdle of how best to abstract Magic VFX into wML in a way that's both sane and robust.)
20170627 12:35:30< zookeeper> i hope that "accelerated rendering = Magic VFX Everywhere" bit was sarcasm
20170627 12:35:44< zookeeper> but i can't be entirely sure
20170627 12:37:12< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: I said I had thought that in the past :|
20170627 12:38:14< zookeeper> yeah but you said you're disappointed _now_ :p
20170627 12:40:18< vultraz_iOS> Because A: I realized I was incorrect and B: dunno, maybe I'm just tired. Wondering if the players will appreciate the effort this is taking.
20170627 12:40:48< vultraz_iOS> s/realized/have realized
20170627 12:41:31< JyrkiVesterinen> They will appreciate it more if we first launch 1.13 with SW rendering as a stable release. :P
20170627 12:41:50< JyrkiVesterinen> Then they can observe the performance difference themselves.
20170627 12:42:15< vultraz_iOS> That's one way to do it xD
20170627 12:46:05< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, I dunno, given the performance regressions between 1.12 and 1.13, that feels a little like switching from feeding someone dog food to feeding them literal crap just so they'll be that much more impressed when you start feeding them real food.
20170627 12:46:19< JyrkiVesterinen> Of course. It was a joke.
20170627 12:46:47< DeFender1031> See? This is what I mean about tone sometimes failing to transfer properly over text.
20170627 12:47:34< JyrkiVesterinen> It's not a problem IMO, especially in realtime mediums like IRC and Discord. Misunderstandings are quick to clear. :)
20170627 12:47:41< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I would imagine that UMC creators will probably notice more than players, but they would certainly notice if it weren't there.
20170627 12:49:23< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I've learned that there are simply some thankless parts of software development. Everyone wants to put out the big, noticeable new features, because that's what users will be grateful for. However, the behind-the-scenes stuff is no less important, and, though the users may not even notice that it's there, you can take pride in the fact that they're not complaining that it's not there.
20170627 12:49:37< vultraz_iOS> true
20170627 12:50:04< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, that's true some of the time. I've seen cases of mistaken high-tension that escalated rather than being corrected.
20170627 12:50:14< vultraz_iOS> another weird part of software dev is that if you have a good API, everything is easy. But most of the time the API never does what you need it to do :P
20170627 12:53:11< zookeeper> vultraz_iOS, the aethermaw thing is a WML problem, not a rendering bug...
20170627 12:53:12< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, granted, taking pride in knowing they would be complaining if it weren't there isn't nearly as satisfying as taking pride in the fact that they're actively appreciating something, but it's a part of every software dev's life to sometimes be working on more noticeable things and sometimes be working on less noticeable things. At least at the moment you're on a project where you get some of each. Imagine how 
20170627 12:53:14< DeFender1031> backend devs feel. All they ever do is things like throughput optimizations and database improvements that the average user doesn't even understand, much less know about.
20170627 12:53:41< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, well, we live in a world where not a lot of emphasis is placed on good API design.
20170627 12:53:47< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: not a rendering bug? halos are rendered after shroud
20170627 12:54:15< zookeeper> hmhmhm. right, i guess they should be before.
20170627 12:55:57< vultraz_iOS> the wml solution would be a *hack*
20170627 12:55:58< vultraz_iOS> not a fix
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20170627 12:57:04< zookeeper> halos go above fog even as far back as 1.10 it seems, but actually, i agree! they should go under it
20170627 12:57:06< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, at my day job, one of the SaaSes we work with routinely breaks something in a catastrophic fashion once every six months like clockwork. (The most recent was actually last thursday.) The vast majority of the time, what they've broken only affects the service when used via API, rather than when used directly. And of course, who do our clients blame when the system goes down? The service who broke their APIs? Of 
20170627 12:57:07< DeFender1031> course not! Because from the average, non-technical user's limited perspective, if the service itself works when they go to it, but it doesn't work through our platform, then obviously we must be the ones to blame.
20170627 12:59:31< DeFender1031> API completeness, quality assurance, and documentation is not something that most people place emphasis on.
20170627 12:59:31< zookeeper> don't even need to be a non-technical user for that, really.
20170627 13:00:03< vultraz_iOS> SaaSes?
20170627 13:01:49< DeFender1031> zookeeper, well, technical users will be able to understand if you tell them that a service broke their APIs that it's the service's fault. Non-technical users will overestimate their own understanding and assume you're incompetent and are just trying to shift the blame by confusing them with technical-sounding information that can't possibly be true. It's actually a result of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%
20170627 13:01:50< DeFender1031> 93Kruger_effect
20170627 13:02:09< zookeeper> it's always rather unclear just how much you should be blamed for upstream problems. if the provider of a service/library/whatever breaks it and your thing breaks because of that, then of course you're still to blame for putting your thing in that situation in the first place.
20170627 13:02:13< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, "SaaS" means "Sofware as a Service". I was pluralizing it.
20170627 13:02:28< DeFender1031> ack, IRC broke my link
20170627 13:02:33< DeFender1031> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
20170627 13:03:20< JyrkiVesterinen> AFAIK, the word "software" is uncountable, and therefore you can't pluralize it.
20170627 13:03:35< JyrkiVesterinen> (Not a native English speaker, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
20170627 13:03:47< DeFender1031> zookeeper, "if the provider of a service/library/whatever breaks it and your thing breaks because of that, then of course you're still to blame for putting your thing in that situation in the first place." depnds what you mean by "your thing breaks". If the way in which it breaks is "users can't access the upstream service through your service", then there's no way to NOT be in that position.
20170627 13:04:22< vultraz_iOS> jyrki is correct i think
20170627 13:04:26< zookeeper> DeFender1031, yeah, if it's been made clear to the client that you're just a middleman then sure
20170627 13:06:22< zookeeper> DeFender1031, but i can easily imagine lots of situations where the client is given the impression that what they're getting from you is the service itself, not just means of accessing a third-party service that you have no control over
20170627 13:06:23< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, in general, yes, but "SaaS" is often used to refer to the singular of a such a service. So if I were to say "google drive for business is a SaaS", I would also say that "google drive for business, AWS, and Microsoft Azure are all SaaSes"
20170627 13:07:07< DeFender1031> zookeeper, yeah, no. In our case, we make it clear that we're middleware.
20170627 13:08:39< DeFender1031> zookeeper, not useless middleware, mind you. We facilitate more advanced use of the base service than you typically get directly from them, but it's still made very clear that when you're accessing that part of the platform, it's that service.
20170627 13:08:58< zookeeper> DeFender1031, i mean it's just a mildly interesting dilemma in general.
20170627 13:08:58< zookeeper> of course one can't write their own operating system and drivers to make really sure no one else can cause the breakage of their software/service/whatever, but the cause of a problem residing elsewhere can't just automatically absolve one of all blame, either.
20170627 13:09:20< DeFender1031> Like I said, people even know that they can log directly into the service... That's how they know when the service is working directly but not through our system.
20170627 13:09:29< zookeeper> righty
20170627 13:11:11< DeFender1031> "of all blame", no. And we stay on top of updates and correct things when they occur, but the problem is that no matter how many times we've begged and been promised it'll be different in the future, no matter the fact that we have a developer account with this service, they don't actually update our developer account in advance of the main rollout.
20170627 13:11:24< DeFender1031> If they did, we could catch issues before they ever hit clients.
20170627 13:11:43< DeFender1031> But since we get updated at the same time (or sometimes even AFTER) the clients do, all hell breaks loose.
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20170627 13:12:33< DeFender1031> I can't think of any way that we can prevent those sorts of outages from our end without any of the aforementioned accommodations from the other end.
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20170627 14:02:45< zookeeper> i'd think you're supposed to be able to play a replay, make a save at any point you choose, and then load that save like any other. however, at least on 1.12.6 that doesn't work; the save gets completion="defeat" and you end up in linger mode when you load it. and if you hack that to allow yourself to play it, the resulting replay will be broken (because of old replay data).
20170627 14:05:25< DeFender1031> That'd be an intersting feature, but it's not something I'd automatically expect to just make natural sense.
20170627 14:09:40< zookeeper> regardless, the game does allow you make a save when playing a replay, in which case the save should of course be usable in some manner
20170627 14:10:02< zookeeper> and there's no particular reason why it shouldn't be; all the necessary gamestate is there, after all
20170627 14:11:59< DeFender1031> I agree with everything you said. It's just not something I'd even think to try, let alone expect the behavior you describe.
20170627 14:12:31< DeFender1031> But yes, if it allows a save to be made then that save ought to actually contain something that isn't useless gibberish.
20170627 14:13:41< zookeeper> i just noticed that when i was checking out a replay and wanted to try if i could play better from turn X onwards. so i replayed up until that point, saved the game, [...]
20170627 14:14:03< zookeeper> alternatively, there could be a "stop replay and start playing" feature
20170627 14:15:03< zookeeper> but that might be confusing clutter. i'd think that if someone really wants to do what i wanted to do and there was no such button, they'd try what i did
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20170627 14:23:26< DeFender1031> I'd argue for having both features.
20170627 14:23:39< DeFender1031> Though I'd call the button "exit replay mode"
20170627 14:25:40< Soliton> saving from a replay used to work. could be that that is already been broken for a while now though.
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20170627 20:53:35< zookeeper> wait... did a storyscreen just end without me doing anything? i thought i left the game idle for a while in the storyscreen, but now it's in-scenario already...
20170627 21:02:57< zookeeper> also i can't reproduce the idle_ai bug in master anymore. i made a turn 1 save with 1.13.7 that i can load with master and the bug reproduces (:inspect shows the side AI having all sorts of normal stuff in it), whereas with master alone it won't (and :inspect shows the side having less stuff as per idle_ai)
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20170627 21:48:31< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I had a similar glitch yesterday in vultraz_iOS's AR branch. I went to go test that message bug and left it for a while while chatting here. When I switched back, the message was gone from the screen (though IIRC the action didn't continue until I actually clicked). I tried the same again and couldn't reproduce it though.
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20170627 22:03:52< shadowm> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Project
20170627 22:04:03< shadowm> "and Gna!"
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20170627 22:07:29< grzywacz> heh
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20170627 22:47:14-!- grzywacz2 [~karol@163.172.154.146] has left #wesnoth-dev []
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 28 00:00:17 2017