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20170601 14:21:38< cc_1> hello
20170601 14:21:42< cc_1> quick question
20170601 14:22:00< cc_1> is there a full map of wesnoth somewhere
20170601 14:23:06< cc_1> I mean Irdya
20170601 14:23:16< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> More than the main screen's background when you start the game?
20170601 14:23:25< cc_1> yes
20170601 14:23:47< cc_1> with all the campaign maps concatenated for example
20170601 14:25:48< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> Not that I know of.
20170601 14:26:20< Soliton> zookeeper: ^
20170601 14:27:16< zookeeper> no, there's no proper full map. there's only some sketches of the known parts of the world (basically, everything depicted on the mainline maps + a bit further south)
20170601 14:28:35< cc_1> zookeeper: how can I get all the older map drawings ? if I want to concatenate them myself it will be easier with the older ones
20170601 14:29:48 * zookeeper is afk for a moment
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20170601 14:42:02< zookeeper> cc_1, you mean the maps that were in this style? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/core/images/maps/wesnoth.png
20170601 14:43:04< zookeeper> you can find some stuff related to those in https://github.com/wesnoth/resources/tree/master/cartography-tools in great-continent.xcf
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20170601 14:43:30< zookeeper> and that howto file is probably useful too
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20170601 14:43:57< zookeeper> but basically you can't just concatenate map files, because they're all at different zoom levels
20170601 14:44:28< zookeeper> of course you can get a rough overview that way, but it probably won't be very pretty
20170601 14:44:35< cc_1> zookeeper: ok
20170601 14:44:47< cc_1> so I would need to draw a whole map I guess
20170601 14:45:30< zookeeper> yeah, the only way to get a whole map is to just make a new one that's zoomed out far enough that it shows everything
20170601 14:45:51< zookeeper> of course, you could try to convince me to do one :p
20170601 14:46:01< cc_1> "The font used for the legends (mostly at 13-point size) is Monotype
20170601 14:46:03< cc_1> Corsiva. We cannot distribute it because it is issued under a
20170601 14:46:05< cc_1> proprietary license
20170601 14:46:07< cc_1> "
20170601 14:46:09< cc_1> wow
20170601 14:46:11< cc_1> wasn't aware of that
20170601 14:46:19< cc_1> looks like a bug to me
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20170601 14:50:35< cc_1> looks like a incentive to make that map myself
20170601 14:50:46< cc_1> because I will not use a nonfree font for sure
20170601 14:50:46< zookeeper> now, if it was actually possible to just make a map that shows the whole world i'd do that, but currently i'd just have to frame it so it includes the known parts of the great continent and stretches far enough west to include the green isle
20170601 14:51:17< zookeeper> but since the old continent nor the eastern and southern ends of the great continent are known...
20170601 14:51:24< zookeeper> s/are/aren't
20170601 14:52:16< cc_1> zookeeper: the only maps I have in my posession are the ones in the game (campaigns and mainscreen), are there other maps elsewhere ?
20170601 14:52:32< zookeeper> there's a few i've made for UMC
20170601 14:52:58< cc_1> btw is there an easy way to visualise the paths from the campaigns without launching the game ?
20170601 14:53:08< cc_1> zookeeper: umc ?
20170601 14:53:12< zookeeper> user-made content
20170601 14:53:39< zookeeper> most notably oath of allegiance since it actually shows the far south. all the other UMC maps were probably just different versions of already known areas
20170601 14:54:21< cc_1> zookeeper: if those maps are consistent with the mainline maps then I would be interesting yes
20170601 14:54:32< cc_1> it*
20170601 14:55:05< cc_1> but I guess I'll concentrate on the main game first
20170601 14:56:11< zookeeper> http://files.wesnoth.org/addons/1.13/Oath_of_Allegiance.tar.bz2 <- i'm sure you'll find said map there
20170601 14:57:46< zookeeper> so what is it that you want to do exactly?
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20170601 14:58:47< cc_1> zookeeper: well I'm trying to learn the geography of wesnoth and it's not easy without a map
20170601 14:59:20< cc_1> so I started to crawl into the game directories and saw that everything was split in parts
20170601 15:00:20< cc_1> and anyway, there needs to be a entry with a full map of Irdya in the in-game wiki
20170601 15:00:31< cc_1> this is definitely a must have
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20170601 15:01:02< cc_1> actually
20170601 15:01:43< cc_1> it would be even greater to have a map that is progressively revealed depending on the progress of the player in the campaigns
20170601 15:02:08< cc_1> I don't know if it's technically possible to do that
20170601 15:02:32< cc_1> but if I make a svg map I guess it would make it possible in the future
20170601 15:03:42< zookeeper> ok, well here's what's essentially the master copy of the great continent geography that i've used to produce all the maps: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3akpq6k9j5hoqrt/great_continent_latest.png?dl=0
20170601 15:04:11< zookeeper> but you can't just have "a full map of irdya" because the geography simply doesn't exist
20170601 15:05:22< cc_1> zookeeper: wow that's cool !
20170601 15:05:27< Kwandulin> It still strikes me that there's a freaking forest right next to a dense forest
20170601 15:05:31< cc_1> zookeeper: this is what I was looking for :)
20170601 15:06:04< cc_1> zookeeper: anyway, when I say full map of Irdya I mean "map of known lands of Irdya"
20170601 15:06:16< zookeeper> right, okay
20170601 15:06:20< cc_1> Irdya as it is known by the wesnothian cartographers
20170601 15:07:05< zookeeper> note that even on that map there's quite a lot of stuff on the eastern edge that isn't shown on any official map, so they're subject to change if need be
20170601 15:07:13< cc_1> zookeeper: blue are the swamps and yellow are the sands, right ?
20170601 15:07:19< zookeeper> yeah
20170601 15:07:33< wesnoth-discord-> <Saran> Hmm you meant playable map of a whole continent, made of hexagons?
20170601 15:07:39< wesnoth-discord-> <Saran> Or just painted map, not playable.
20170601 15:07:58< cc_1> wesnoth-discord-: painted map
20170601 15:08:17< cc_1> for travelers :)
20170601 15:09:20< cc_1> zookeeper: are the maps of the multiplayer scenarios supposed to be part of Irdya ?
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20170601 15:09:48< zookeeper> for each individual map, i might make small adjustments to the swamp/sand/forest/etc mask areas (or add some), and define the mountain layouts, but other than that all the official maps are based on that.
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20170601 15:10:33< zookeeper> cc_1, some are, at least based on their descriptions, but it's a pretty loose "supposed" and usually at an undefined time period etc.
20170601 15:10:52< cc_1> zookeeper: yeah, and most of them are not supposed to be realistic either
20170601 15:12:38< cc_1> zookeeper: why are the heart mountains named like this ?
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20170601 15:13:36< zookeeper> because they're poetically at the heart of the continent, or something
20170601 15:13:58< cc_1> zookeeper: ok
20170601 15:15:08< cc_1> zookeeper: and where does the Kingdom of Wesnoth extends to the south ? are Westin and the Southern Outpost part of it ?
20170601 15:16:35< zookeeper> whether they're part of the kingdom or some kind of semi-autonomous province (and at what point in time) is, i suppose, up for debate, but i'd think they're for all intents and purposes part of the kingdom
20170601 15:16:40 * zookeeper is afk for a bit again
20170601 15:18:48< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> There's also this, if you haven't seen it: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Geography_of_Wesnoth
20170601 15:20:29< cc_1> wesnoth-discord-: the pictures on this page don't show up for me
20170601 15:22:53< cc_1> or they don't always show up I'm not sure
20170601 15:23:03< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> mm
20170601 15:23:16< cc_1> right now when I refresh the page it seems to take ages to load and when it ends, no pictures
20170601 15:23:32< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> looks like they were hosted on GNA, which is actually down now, instead of just having a bad certificate like before
20170601 15:26:41< cc_1> why aren't the pictures hosted on wesnoth.org ?
20170601 15:27:30< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> No idea
20170601 15:28:42< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> Looks like 3 of the 4 images are available here: https://wayback.archive.org/web/20170104131911/http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Geography_of_Wesnoth Though it also looks like they wouldn't provide anything new.
20170601 15:33:38< Soliton> if they were on GNA then they're on github now.
20170601 15:33:54< Soliton> so someone just needs to update the URLs.
20170601 15:34:09< cc_1> zookeeper: the wiki says there is the "Green Swamp" south of Aldril
20170601 15:36:47< zookeeper> cc_1, right, that's an obsolete entry
20170601 15:37:04< zookeeper> or at least it's not big and swampy enough to show up on the maps :p
20170601 15:38:04< cc_1> I should play the south guard again, I don't remember very well
20170601 15:40:55< zookeeper> if one wanted a map of the canonical known world, then i suppose it would look approximately like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dolfdyz2x1lv39m/known_world_sketch.png?dl=0
20170601 15:41:40< zookeeper> problem is, the details of the great continent would be pretty tiny
20170601 15:42:31< zookeeper> although i suppose the distance between the isles and the continent could be smaller and the map simply considered to not be accurate in terms of the size of the ocean
20170601 15:42:38< zookeeper> in which case the continent could be bigger
20170601 15:44:47< zookeeper> ideally, the map would be very wide but would appear folded so that the parts with nothing but empty ocean wouldn't be visible, but i don't think i can convincingly pull that off :p
20170601 15:45:16< cc_1> zookeeper: you could put the isle in a rectangle in a corner of the map
20170601 15:45:34< zookeeper> true, that sounds like a common cartography trope
20170601 15:47:37< cc_1> zookeeper: like this : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Regions_France_2016.svg
20170601 15:47:55< zookeeper> yeah. i guess that'd work.
20170601 15:50:47< cc_1> zookeeper: but what I'm mainly interested in is a map that would show all the names of the places you see in the campaigns, the noticeable elements you see in the campaigns (roads, big forests, swamps, etc), the borders of the different kingdoms, and the place the races live ("here be elves", "here be saurians", "here be mages", "here be goblin idiots")
20170601 15:52:19< cc_1> zookeeper: do you have an SVG/XCF version of the map you posted on dropbox ?
20170601 15:53:05< cc_1> provided the colors are different layers
20170601 15:53:41< zookeeper> no, my working file of that is pretty much exactly the same, except with the different mask types on different layers.
20170601 15:54:10< zookeeper> background, land, hills, mountains, then all the other types on a single layer
20170601 15:54:23< zookeeper> so not really of much interest
20170601 15:54:55< cc_1> zookeeper: well if it's svg at least I can zoom as much as I want
20170601 15:55:20< zookeeper> it's not svg, so sorry, no more pixels than you already got :p
20170601 15:55:29< cc_1> zookeeper: ok
20170601 15:55:35< zookeeper> it's just a paint.net .pdn file
20170601 15:56:31< zookeeper> so, if you had all the places you see in the campaigns labeled on the same map, that wouldn't really make much sense chronologically. cities and other places come and go. i suppose there could be a map which just anachronistically shows all time periods on the same map concurrently, though.
20170601 15:56:55< zookeeper> it seems a bit odd to me
20170601 15:57:35< zookeeper> or, maybe you could add timeline notes next to the labels detailing the time period during which that place existed
20170601 16:00:13< cc_1> zookeeper: I would make a anachronistic map that shows all the campaign places, with perhaps additional visual details for the places that weren't always there or weren't always like this, and if it's too messy, split that into different maps covering different time periods, like we do on classic encyclopaedias
20170601 16:01:03< zookeeper> yeah... considering that actual geography luckily doesn't change (except maybe morogor sank at some point), that should be doable
20170601 16:03:17< cc_1> but we could also do what we have with the XCF file you linked, different campaigns implemented as different layers
20170601 16:03:31< cc_1> I don't know if XCF is the right way to do so
20170601 16:03:44< cc_1> I don't know if there's a standard for that
20170601 16:03:53< cc_1> maybe SVG
20170601 16:04:23< cc_1> I'd really like to have a simple open standard for geographical map
20170601 16:06:32< zookeeper> the best we could have is to just have a layered XCF version of the area masks. but really that wouldn't help anyone much.
20170601 16:07:13< zookeeper> or maybe SVG if someone wants to make one. i don't have any SVG experience myself nor have i felt the need to use vectors for any of this stuff.
20170601 16:08:36< cc_1> zookeeper: well if the wesnoth engine could implement an XCF reader and get an XCF map in the encyclopedia then one would be able to browse the map in three dimensions (2D-space and time)
20170601 16:09:15< cc_1> you could click "legend of wesmere" and you would have the legend of wesmere overlay on it
20170601 16:09:54< cc_1> you could click "all campaigns" and you would have all the overlays displayed at once
20170601 16:10:20< cc_1> you could click "play" and see the overlay change progressively as you go through the ages
20170601 16:10:46< cc_1> but SVG is probably more adapted than XCF for that
20170601 16:10:58< cc_1> XCF is quite heavy
20170601 16:11:16< cc_1> and I guess it's designed for edition, not for final products
20170601 16:11:23< zookeeper> it doesn't matter what format it's in, you could just have separate images for the overlays. the problem is actually coming up with the world map that would look good.
20170601 16:12:26< zookeeper> now, i could do the aforementioned kind of map of the known world, and then different label overlays for that for different campaigns and time periods and whatnot.
20170601 16:13:03< zookeeper> but it's still going to be one image which would start to look crappy if you zoomed in
20170601 16:13:50< cc_1> zookeeper: by "look good" do you think about conflicting overlays or about the realism of potential auto-generated stuff ?
20170601 16:14:41< zookeeper> just the aesthetics
20170601 16:16:02< zookeeper> so, as said, what you describe is doable (art-wise, that is) as long as the world map can just be a single image just like any current map, with different label/etc overlays for each campaign
20170601 16:16:23< cc_1> zookeeper: well if we make everything SVG we won't have any problem with the zoom
20170601 16:16:45< zookeeper> sure, but that's a big if
20170601 16:18:07< zookeeper> i mean, can you show me some kind of reference of a big SVG map that you think looks nice enough?
20170601 16:18:59< zookeeper> i don't really know what kind of aesthetic you're thinking of
20170601 16:22:01< zookeeper> there's certainly many problems with the current style of maps, but overall i think it's safe to say that they look pretty nice, a lot of that being a result of things that you could can't do in SVG. so the aesthetic would be very different, which is fine, but in a game it also needs to actually look pleasant.
20170601 16:22:26< cc_1> zookeeper: I was thinking any aesthetic would do but if you really want to have that "used parchment" effect that would be hard indeed
20170601 16:24:08< zookeeper> it wouldn't need to have the same effects. it clearly couldn't emulate the current maps, anyway.
20170601 16:24:24< cc_1> if it's something in the style of "wesnoth.png" then svg would work, but if it's something like "titlescreen.png" then we would lose some things
20170601 16:24:53< cc_1> especially those fold lines
20170601 16:25:21< zookeeper> yeah, you'd have to lose the folds, the perspective and the parchment effect in general
20170601 16:26:29< cc_1> zookeeper: well I was thinking that "titlescreen.png" was not adapted for a wiki map anyway, because of the perspective effect mostly
20170601 16:26:44< cc_1> if there's a wiki map if must be flat
20170601 16:26:55< cc_1> so we can browse it or zoom easily
20170601 16:26:57< zookeeper> and it'd be okay if the "encyclopedia map" had a different visual style than the campaign maps, but i'm just a bit sceptical about how good it could actually be made to look. which is why i'd like to see an example of it done well somewhere else :P
20170601 16:27:34< zookeeper> i'm thinking mostly about how would you do things like mountains and forests
20170601 16:28:01< cc_1> zookeeper: I have only examples of modern maps but you have have pretty much any level of detail on svg files, it's just a matter of size
20170601 16:28:25< zookeeper> sure
20170601 16:29:24< cc_1> zookeeper: well for the forests we could have one tree drawing repeated X times over a certain area
20170601 16:30:24< wesnoth-discord-> <shadowm> Soliton, zookeeper: Do not use raw.github.com as a CDN for images. If anything needs to be uploaded to wesnoth.org, it should be uploaded to wesnoth.org rather than hotlinked from an external site, especially one known to impose file size and bandwidth restrictions on hotlinking.
20170601 16:31:43< zookeeper> what's a CDN?
20170601 16:31:58< cc_1> Content Delivery Network
20170601 16:32:03< zookeeper> ah
20170601 16:32:47< cc_1> it's the new fashion for websites :P
20170601 16:33:54< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> How do I upload to the wiki?
20170601 16:34:33< Soliton> https://help.github.com/articles/adding-images-to-wikis/
20170601 16:35:08< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> *Wesnoth wiki
20170601 16:35:33< zookeeper> the "upload file" page linked to at the bottom
20170601 16:37:16< zookeeper> @shadowm, i don't know if you mean raw.github.com specifically (whatever that is) which no one linked to, or just generally "don't post direct links to the repos"
20170601 16:37:56< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> There is no upload file link for me.
20170601 16:38:14< zookeeper> does https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:Upload say you don't have permissions?
20170601 16:38:26< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> Yes
20170601 16:38:35< zookeeper> i think that's the problem then :P
20170601 16:38:57< cc_1> bbl
20170601 16:40:28< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> Well, Soliton said someone should update the wiki URLs, which I did.  Now shadowm says images should just be uploaded to the wiki, which I can't do it seems.
20170601 16:40:55< Soliton> did you do it as the above article states?
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20170601 16:42:00< Soliton> (not that i mind if the images are served from wesnoth.org)
20170601 16:42:04< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> yes
20170601 16:42:38< Soliton> then you did not link to raw.github.com, right?
20170601 16:43:19< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> I did not.  Though the image doesn't display on the wesnoth wiki atm either, it's just a link.
20170601 16:43:59< zookeeper> oh right shadowm meant updating the links to point to github, not posting links on irc :p
20170601 16:44:05< zookeeper> nevermind then
20170601 16:44:24< Soliton> then i guess you did not use the right syntax? i can't check right now.
20170601 16:44:56 * Soliton later.
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20170601 16:48:50< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> I copied how another page did it, since the MediaWiki wiki's instructions just plain don't work.
20170601 16:49:01< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Screenshots
20170601 16:50:07< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> The page loads with a bunch of urls, then the thumbnails load up.
20170601 16:50:42< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> I just get the url here: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Geography_of_Wesnoth
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20170601 17:02:00< wesnoth-discord-> <shadowm> Only wiki admins can upload things to the wiki.
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20170601 17:44:38< Kwandulin> Are there underground bigmaps?
20170601 17:51:48< wesnoth-discord-> <shadowm> Not in mainline, no. HttT just stops tracking your journey while you are in the Heart Mountains and shows the marker at Dwarven Doors instead IIRC.
20170601 17:52:34< wesnoth-discord-> <shadowm> (Unless SotA has something new in that regard. I don't know anything about it.)
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20170601 18:28:34< zookeeper> HttT does track your underground journey, but without any change to the map itself of course.
20170601 18:31:29< cc_1> hum you put github links in the wiki but those are not pictures so they aren't embedded in the page
20170601 18:31:52< cc_1> but at least we can click
20170601 18:33:24< cc_1> and the green isle is still missing
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20170601 21:32:43< cc_1> zookeeper: btw do you have an idea of the scale of those maps ?
20170601 21:32:59< cc_1> compared to the in-game maps
20170601 21:33:05< cc_1> hum actually
20170601 21:33:11< cc_1> this is something I can deduce
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20170601 21:34:12< cc_1> by comparing with the Isle of Alduin map
20170601 21:34:16< zookeeper> well, it's unspecified really. i mean you can take the isle of alduin, compare the scenario map to the bigmap and calculate how many days it takes to cross the isle etc, but... hah
20170601 21:34:25< cc_1> :D
20170601 21:35:14< cc_1> and also the Isle of the damned
20170601 21:35:24< zookeeper> ...but the scales between the two are not really intended to be consistent
20170601 21:36:10< zookeeper> there's some threads on the forums about the scale of the world based on travel times and such
20170601 21:36:27< cc_1> oh that's cool
20170601 21:36:47< zookeeper> still, there's no canonical scale
20170601 21:40:35< zookeeper> as a minor detail, the red-and-yellow lines at the edges of the new-style bigmaps _are_ consistently sized, so you can compare the dimensions of maps using those
20170601 21:42:53< cc_1> hum yeah there are inconsistencies apparently
20170601 21:42:57< cc_1> "Continuity problems: the map for 'The Princess of Wesnoth' is difficult to reconcile with the track location; the lake to the south should be large enough to show on the main map and is difficult to fit in a valley in the Brown Hills. Likewise, the map for Home of the North Elves shows only an east-west river probably too small to be the Arkan-thoria, and not the Listra that it should flow into. "
20170601 21:43:50< zookeeper> sure, there's lots of inconsistencies like that.
20170601 21:44:42< zookeeper> some details such as tiny little lakes would have looked dumb incorporated onto the bigmaps, but it'd also not be a good idea to overhaul scenario maps just to geographically fit with the bigmap, so...
20170601 21:45:25< cc_1> hum for the last one we could always say that there's a small river flowing from lintanir forest to river listra
20170601 21:45:39< zookeeper> sure. small rivers can be anywhere.
20170601 21:46:05< cc_1> zookeeper: well if there's one thing to change it's probably the bigmap, let's not let artistic inconsistencies mess up the gameplay
20170601 21:47:04< cc_1> so I wouldn't be against putting that lake in the brown hills
20170601 21:47:54< cc_1> it's probably difficult to integrate in the main state of things but I guess that part of the map could be modified realistically without breaking consistency with the game maps
20170601 21:53:14< cc_1> zookeeper: is there a way to take a fake screenshot in wesnoth that would capture the entire map that is played ?
20170601 21:54:08< zookeeper> yeah, there's a hotkey for taking a whole-map screenshot, it's not bound to any key by default
20170601 21:54:20< zookeeper> it's somewhere in the hotkey list
20170601 21:54:24< cc_1> ok
20170601 21:54:34< zookeeper> "map screenshot", i think
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 02 00:00:27 2017