--- Log opened Thu Jun 15 00:00:00 2017 20170615 00:17:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.90.67.72] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 00:24:58-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:f475:562b:c70c:e063] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 00:33:07-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [] 20170615 00:38:18-!- sevu [~Shiki@p5485713D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 00:41:36-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: I will vanish in the morning light; I was only an invention of darkness.] 20170615 00:41:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.90.67.72] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 01:12:26-!- THERetroGamerNY [THERetroGa@pool-68-133-48-135.bflony.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 20170615 01:31:44-!- ghs39ghsggf [~ghs39ghsg@186.223.250.179] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 01:31:44-!- ghs39ghsggf [~ghs39ghsg@186.223.250.179] has left #wesnoth [] 20170615 01:55:12-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 02:13:02-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 02:16:16-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 02:29:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 02:33:44-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170615 02:49:56-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.170.86] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 02:58:06-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 02:59:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 03:01:50-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 03:03:49-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170615 03:15:10-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 03:23:17-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20170615 03:35:50-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 03:35:58-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 03:37:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 03:38:37-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20170615 03:39:38-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 03:43:34-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 03:48:24-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170615 04:06:10-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 04:21:48-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 04:24:29-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170615 04:26:26-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 04:29:50-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20170615 04:30:30-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 05:21:28-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170615 05:27:56-!- zookeeper [zookeeper@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 05:36:15-!- moongazer [~moongazer@117.198.72.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20170615 05:41:43-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:9106:2258:21d2:fe36] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 06:40:38-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 06:42:05-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 06:53:38-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.104.110] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:01:37-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF47C03C0744E6EEF4D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:06:12-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:06:42< Nobun> hi all. I'm working on fixing the wmlxgettext issue reported here, but I'm having a little problem. 20170615 07:07:43< Nobun> (issue reported is: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1785) 20170615 07:08:09< Nobun> the fix I did (still not published) have a little problem 20170615 07:08:47< Nobun> the counter I use to know in wich line of file a problem occurs, doesn't work in this case 20170615 07:09:33< Nobun> the variable is outside the try exception, but the value is not changed (still remains 0) if the exception was raised (and the UTF8 error was encountered) 20170615 07:10:05< Nobun> in all other errors, instead, the variable is changed correctly as many times as needed 20170615 07:10:59< wesnoth-discord-> Can you show the code? 20170615 07:12:04< Nobun> so I'm thinking to show the error message in a slightly different way than all other errors, without line of file wich generates the error (cannot retrieve it at the moment) 20170615 07:13:02< Nobun> but, in the error text, show the previous 100 characters to show the 'context' where the invalid UTF-8 byte was found 20170615 07:13:19< wesnoth-discord-> That would also be an improvement. Sounds fine to me. 20170615 07:14:16< Nobun> wesnoth-discord-, ??? I will show you the current code... wait a moment... 20170615 07:14:59< wesnoth-discord-> "wesnoth-discord-" is just the name of the bot that connects our IRC and Discord chats. 20170615 07:15:02< wesnoth-discord-> My name is Jyrki. 20170615 07:15:38< Nobun> ah ok. Sorry. Good morning jyrkive 20170615 07:16:00< Nobun> it will require a bit of time (dpaste.com seems slow to me) 20170615 07:16:56< Nobun> here is the code at this moment 20170615 07:16:57< Nobun> http://dpaste.com/0V98XPS 20170615 07:17:29< Nobun> the line from 71 to 77 are for debugging purposes only, they will be removed when I will publish the PR 20170615 07:18:35< Nobun> the code should be fixed with the current solution to allow to manage situation where the UTF-8 invalid bytes comes before byte 101 20170615 07:19:14-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:19:59-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 07:20:35< Nobun> I'm thinking a 'scalar' solution. If position is 0, 1, 2, 3 I can show the position of the invalid character (the invalid character is the first, second, third, fourth used in the file) 20170615 07:20:57< wesnoth-discord-> Okay... based on your code and the call stack in the bug report, it looks like Python raises the UnicodeDecodeError already when it tries to _split the buffer to lines_. 20170615 07:21:13< wesnoth-discord-> In other words, at the time it isn't even known where the lines start and end. 20170615 07:22:01< Nobun> yes... it is similar to what I thinked the problem could be 20170615 07:22:22< Nobun> so I was near to know why I had the problem. 20170615 07:22:36< Nobun> I tried to think another solution, but nothing seemed fine. 20170615 07:23:04-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:25:05< Nobun> however... perhaps now, talking to you, I starting to have an idea about how to make a workaround to manage the issue and obtain the line of the code 20170615 07:25:25< wesnoth-discord-> Scan the buffer for line breaks without using string functions? 20170615 07:25:55< Nobun> something similar, yes 20170615 07:26:03< Nobun> but slightly different. 20170615 07:26:23< Nobun> I'm not confident on parsing byte arrays directly in python 20170615 07:26:58-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 07:27:13< Nobun> becouse I'm not sure If I can do it in a platform-independant way (yes... you could expect '\n' only, but you could have '\r\n' instead) 20170615 07:27:32< Nobun> (0x0d, 0x0a if I remember correctly) 20170615 07:27:52< wesnoth-discord-> Is it a problem? If you search for \n, both \n and \r\n will match. 20170615 07:29:47< Nobun> hmm... I was thinking to convert (in the exception) the byte array (e.object) of the file until the utf-8 byte error found 20170615 07:30:02-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:30:07< wesnoth-discord-> That would also work, yes. 20170615 07:30:46< Nobun> that byte array converted to string, counting '\n' (litterally), counting line, and obtaining the residual part of the line of text where the UTF8 problem was 20170615 07:31:40< Nobun> in that case I could display both line of code and where the text finised to be UTF-8 ok 20170615 07:32:01< wesnoth-discord-> Indeed. Sounds good. 😃 20170615 07:32:34< Nobun> well... I will try now to translate the thinking into code :) 20170615 07:32:47< Nobun> thank for helping me with this discussion :) 20170615 07:33:48-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 07:34:02< wesnoth-discord-> Heh. Almost rubber duck debugging. 20170615 07:34:04< wesnoth-discord-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging 20170615 07:36:45-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 08:01:36< Nobun> jyrkive we are near to have a nice error message show 20170615 08:01:58< Nobun> I have only to solve a minor issue, but I am near 20170615 08:08:21< Nobun> wesnoth-discord-, (jyrkive): I need your opinion about error message: http://dpaste.com/1S6T9K2 20170615 08:09:03< Nobun> is it enough clear... too verbose? can be explained in a better way? let me know what do you think about 20170615 08:09:42< wesnoth-discord-> I think it's indeed too verbose. 20170615 08:09:50-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF47C03C0744E6EEF4D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 08:09:56< Nobun> the idea is to use quotes to show also spaces 20170615 08:10:21< Nobun> but if the wrong text contains quotes, it can make confusion 20170615 08:10:52< Nobun> if you have an idea how to make the error message more simple, let me know 20170615 08:12:01< wesnoth-discord-> My suggestion: https://gist.github.com/jyrkive/b767a2111cf2173ae3a7de4e58d65b48 20170615 08:12:24< wesnoth-discord-> And indeed, I'd drop the quotes. IMO, showing the spaces is unnecessary. 20170615 08:12:51< wesnoth-discord-> The developers should be able to recognize that the invalid byte comes right after the spaces. 20170615 08:13:32< Nobun> yes... nice suggestion... 20170615 08:15:04-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF47C03C0744E6EEF4D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:18:05-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:19:00-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 08:19:51< Nobun> last question: http://dpaste.com/2ST25JX 20170615 08:20:24< Nobun> in your opinion the code comments are enough clear? (we love the rubber duck ;) ) 20170615 08:24:17< wesnoth-discord-> I think they are indeed clear enough. Albeit unnecessarily verbose. 20170615 08:24:41< Nobun> In that case, i like to be verbose :P 20170615 08:25:22-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:25:24< Nobun> thank for help... I will send the PR in some minutes 20170615 08:25:43< wesnoth-discord-> Thanks for your efforts, too. 😃 20170615 08:26:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:27:46< Nobun> no problem, after I am the one who wanted to write from scratch this python version of wmlxgettext, so I think it is my duty to continue to be the maintainer of the tool until I can :) 20170615 08:31:04-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170615 08:31:16-!- ancientcc_ [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:31:30-!- ancientcc_ [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 08:36:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:38:28-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 08:41:51-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:42:33-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 08:50:50-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 08:52:07-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 09:05:14< Kwandulin> zookeeper: There won't be the moon singer branch anymore? 20170615 09:05:23< zookeeper> yeah 20170615 09:06:21< zookeeper> the files are still there but it hasn't been wired in anymore since 1.13.7 20170615 09:06:39< Kwandulin> What a bummer, they look really cool. What's the reasoning behind their removal? 20170615 09:07:50< zookeeper> i just think it was a bit cheesy and forced to have to have lawful and chaotic and fire and cold and all that dichotonom...ical stuff 20170615 09:09:16< zookeeper> i'm not entirely opposed to bringing it back in some form, maybe as an alternate branch from shaman or druid, but it'd have to be something other than "just like the sun branch, but cold/chaotic/moon instead of fire/lawful/sun" 20170615 09:09:36< Kwandulin> Is there a way to unlock a unit advancement during a campaign? Having the moon singer as an alternative, unlockable advancement might add some flavor 20170615 09:10:00< zookeeper> umm, sure 20170615 09:10:07< zookeeper> kinda 20170615 09:10:54< Kwandulin> I like this dichotomical stuff, at least for the elves. It shows that they are rather adaptive to their surroundings (in a different way than humans, that is) 20170615 09:12:58< Kwandulin> Having the moon singer as a standard advancement is not the way to go, imho. The two suns thing pushes the elves towards the neutral/sun branch, I'd imagine 20170615 09:13:16< Kwandulin> Too bad I never finished UtbS. Is there a night/cave scenario? 20170615 09:14:20< zookeeper> yeah, about a third of the campaign :p 20170615 09:23:57< zookeeper> underground, that is 20170615 09:24:11< zookeeper> and the third scenario is actually specifically a magical-perpetual-night scenario 20170615 09:30:12< Kwandulin> I imagine it is not intended to kill that Lich there? Is it even possible? Unlocking the night branch on killing the Lich might be funny 20170615 09:36:55< zookeeper> you kill one or the other 20170615 09:56:19-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:9106:2258:21d2:fe36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 09:56:40-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:9106:2258:21d2:fe36] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 10:01:40< zookeeper> well, gotta run -> 20170615 10:09:52-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.104.110] has quit [Quit: Salve a tutti] 20170615 10:13:17-!- vn971 [~vasya@0896414046.static.corbina.ru] has left #wesnoth ["PART #wesnoth-dev :ISON Rogach NickServ "] 20170615 10:15:29-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF47C03C0744E6EEF4D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 10:19:00-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170615 10:52:10-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170615 10:57:32-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:01:49-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:06:49-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 11:06:55-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:19:31-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:21:28-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF4D956935DCB82EF28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:37:14-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:38:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 11:45:05-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:50:18-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 11:51:24-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:51:24-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 11:57:18-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:57:47-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 11:57:58-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 12:02:07-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:02:49-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 12:06:29-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:12:36-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 12:16:41-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20170615 12:23:13-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:26:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 12:31:21-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:35:22-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 12:47:07-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:48:11-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 12:52:12-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:9106:2258:21d2:fe36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 12:54:17-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170615 12:56:18-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:547f:a296:cb18:d453] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 12:58:33-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170615 13:01:36-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:9428:1b64:547f:a296:cb18:d453] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 13:08:29-!- moongazer [~moongazer@59.94.241.150] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:10:49-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@75-167-205-33.cdrr.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 13:13:07-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:22:15-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF4D956935DCB82EF28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 13:35:10-!- moongazer [~moongazer@59.94.241.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170615 13:38:08-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: I will vanish in the morning light; I was only an invention of darkness.] 20170615 13:43:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:44:20-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 13:50:09-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:50:50-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 13:52:02-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:932e:6859:d5b:71b3:dc05:e7d0] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:52:14-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 13:53:11-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 13:57:00-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 14:07:45-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 14:11:58-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 14:14:30-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.89] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 15:07:25-!- moongazer [~moongazer@2405:204:932e:6859:d5b:71b3:dc05:e7d0] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 15:08:04-!- THERetroGamerNY [THERetroGa@pool-68-133-48-135.bflony.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 15:12:07-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 15:22:38-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 15:23:24-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 15:31:42-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 15:32:41-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 15:39:14-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 15:40:13-!- metronomicon [~metronomi@2a02:587:a23:2b00:c9f1:1276:79d6:cf6] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 16:02:07< wesnoth-discord-> Has anyone thoughts about mainlining the Quenoth from utBS as a multiplayer faction? 20170615 16:04:32< zookeeper> well, 1) they're not designed with multiplayer in mind, 4 units only would be a pretty lame faction, 2) there's no era they would logically fit in 20170615 16:20:19< wesnoth-discord-> I never thought about 'standard' as an actual era. More like kind of a 'factions of mainline wesnoth' thingy. 20170615 16:22:14< wesnoth-discord-> All factions dont need to be included with core. Those units can be found from EoC 20170615 16:25:57-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 16:27:19< zookeeper> default era is loosely representative of the HttT era, +-x hundred years. but not so loose that you could just throw pre-wesnoth or post-fall stuff in there. 20170615 16:31:49< wesnoth-discord-> I see, good to know! 🤔 @Ravana EoC is when? 20170615 16:32:59-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF49935D72CF2F5B1D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 16:37:09< wesnoth-discord-> Well, After the fall, i guess. 20170615 16:39:40-!- moongazer [~moongazer@59.94.246.235] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 16:43:10< wesnoth-discord-> Why is our stupid wiki full of single-category pages, argh. 20170615 16:43:26< wesnoth-discord-> Oh finally, found a page with more than one category. 20170615 16:49:03< DoctorFender1031> because most pages only belong in one category? 20170615 17:03:13-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.170.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20170615 17:04:38-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.170.86] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 17:09:12-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.170.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170615 17:23:59-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF49935D72CF2F5B1D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 17:27:53-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.104.207] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 17:43:18-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 17:43:57-!- jemadux [~jemadux@unaffiliated/jemadux] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 17:53:58-!- cc___ [~ac@2001:910:113f:1:6a05:caff:fe1c:1627] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 18:09:23-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF45596AB0792ECA6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 18:11:18-!- universecoder [~moongazer@117.198.83.242] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 18:14:10-!- moongazer [~moongazer@59.94.246.235] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170615 18:44:11< Kwandulin> her shoulders are 1px less apart! :< 20170615 18:44:55< Kwandulin> Anyway, is it intended to remove the old elf units once the new quenoth elves are done? 20170615 19:01:50< zookeeper> sure 20170615 19:27:45-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 19:34:33< wesnoth-discord-> @Bitron once upon a time, mainline had "Classic Era", perhaps that is what you meant? It worked as an unbalanced catchall for anything factionlike (saurians by themselves, drakes by themselves, outlaws by themselves, dwarfs by themselves). It existed alongside Default Era, but was removed in 1.2 I think? Anyway Default Era is nothing like that, it is VERY tight and delicate - any change to it is considered a huge disruption, 20170615 19:34:34< wesnoth-discord-> and faces huge resistance 20170615 19:40:48-!- universecoder [~moongazer@117.198.83.242] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 19:41:50-!- Nobun [~nobun@5.170.104.207] has quit [Quit: Salve a tutti] 20170615 19:43:02< wesnoth-discord-> @blarumyrran I wonder how the khalifate managed to get in there, then? 20170615 19:43:19< zookeeper> it's not in default era. 20170615 19:45:26-!- moongazer [~moongazer@117.198.83.242] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 19:47:40< wesnoth-discord-> Well, but somehow mainlined. 20170615 19:48:41< wesnoth-discord-> we could just add it as part of the default era 20170615 19:48:53< wesnoth-discord-> (the khalifate that is) 20170615 19:51:36-!- vn971 [~vasya@0896414046.static.corbina.ru] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 19:52:36< vn971> can I play on the main wesnoth official server using the development version 1.13.8 ? 20170615 19:52:50< vn971> with other 1.12.* clients ? 20170615 19:53:02< wesnoth-discord-> no 20170615 19:53:19< vn971> ok, thx. 20170615 19:55:58< zookeeper> the khalifate was specifically designed with the intention of fitting in with the other default era factions and it was balanced for years and years, and it's still not actually in default era yet. 20170615 20:05:37-!- universecoder [~moongazer@2405:204:9410:9f69:126:1be7:c0e2:28b7] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 20:07:41-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54855C0C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 20:08:52-!- moongazer [~moongazer@117.198.83.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170615 20:11:11-!- cc___ [~ac@2001:910:113f:1:6a05:caff:fe1c:1627] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170615 20:23:03< wesnoth-discord-> so is that a voicei n favor? 20170615 20:23:06< wesnoth-discord-> voice in* 20170615 20:24:28< zookeeper> no 20170615 20:24:45< zookeeper> i'm sure you're aware of my opinion 20170615 20:25:45-!- NightCameAtLast_ [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 20:25:55-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 20:25:59-!- NightCameAtLast_ is now known as NightCameAtLast 20170615 20:27:04< wesnoth-discord-> you just implied you're in favor 20170615 20:27:14< zookeeper> no i didn't, i just stated the facts. 20170615 20:27:37< wesnoth-discord-> so why do you not want it in the default era 20170615 20:36:07< zookeeper> i'm not a fan, and the details surely aren't important in this context 20170615 20:45:17-!- vn971 [~vasya@0896414046.static.corbina.ru] has left #wesnoth ["PING 1497559517"] 20170615 20:51:33< wesnoth-discord-> Personally, I'm still waiting for a mainline drake campaign, but I know such things are merely vapors in the wind. 20170615 20:52:30< wesnoth-discord-> Wasn't there a drake campaign at some point? 20170615 20:53:19< wesnoth-discord-> One was in development for a while and simply never updated again. 20170615 20:53:31< wesnoth-discord-> "Freedom", I think. But it seems it has been removed. 20170615 20:54:27< zookeeper> flight to freedom, wings of victory, ... some other one too 20170615 20:54:47< zookeeper> oh, right, kwandulin's new one 20170615 20:55:46< wesnoth-discord-> Flight to Freedom was never in mainline; I believe Wings of Victory was the one I talking about in development. 20170615 20:56:26< zookeeper> i assume bitron never meant mainline, because of course there has never been a mainline drake campaign :p 20170615 20:57:26< wesnoth-discord-> actually I thought that, but I simply wasn't right then. ^^ 20170615 20:58:13< wesnoth-discord-> My apologies, I had specifically meant a mainline in my written woes. 20170615 21:00:46-!- universecoder [~moongazer@2405:204:9410:9f69:126:1be7:c0e2:28b7] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170615 21:20:13< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz the Khalifate is just fine being in the extended era 20170615 21:21:18< zookeeper> uh... extended era is an UMC era 20170615 21:21:34< zookeeper> default+khalifate is the mainline era 20170615 21:22:30< wesnoth-discord-> I still don't feel like it's really a Wesnoth faction, it doesn't mesh all that well with the other Default factions, and making it a part of the Default era would cause massive issues in the serious MP realm 20170615 21:23:17< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: I meant extended as in "Default+", not as in "Extended" 20170615 21:23:46< wesnoth-discord-> Sorry for the confusion, I'm on mobile 20170615 21:23:50< zookeeper> sure. but saying "extended era" is very misleading if you're not actually talking about "extended era" :P 20170615 21:25:24< wesnoth-discord-> We should rename Default + to something akin to "Extended" 20170615 21:25:30< wesnoth-discord-> in case we add something in the future 20170615 21:25:45< zookeeper> no, we should rename it _if/when_ we add something in the future 20170615 21:25:48< wesnoth-discord-> then we'll have Default + Khalifate + New 😛 20170615 21:25:56< wesnoth-discord-> I mean.... It's great that Kwandulin made a campaign for it, but it still feels incredibly shoe-horned as a part of mainline 20170615 21:26:18< wesnoth-discord-> well we never developed the lore 20170615 21:26:24< wesnoth-discord-> because we're lazy asses 20170615 21:26:35< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz that bridge can be crossed when it's actually visible on the horizon 20170615 21:26:52< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz then why ever was it added m 20170615 21:27:57< wesnoth-discord-> Rhetorical question, I've heard the explanation before and it's not a good one IMO. 20170615 21:28:14< wesnoth-discord-> shrug shrug shrug 20170615 21:28:19< wesnoth-discord-> i don't know and i really don't care 20170615 21:28:35< wesnoth-discord-> I care more about the fact that there's no lore 20170615 21:29:00< wesnoth-discord-> it's one of wesnoth's great failings. 😦 20170615 21:29:10< wesnoth-discord-> stuff like the Elder Scrolls has incredibly rich lore 20170615 21:29:19< wesnoth-discord-> yet we never developed our lore 20170615 21:29:24< wesnoth-discord-> why did we not develop our lore 20170615 21:29:28< wesnoth-discord-> we should develop our lore 20170615 21:29:47< wesnoth-discord-> giff lore plox 20170615 21:30:14< wesnoth-discord-> Sure, but if you just chucked spacecraft into Skyrim it wouldn't have lore either 20170615 21:30:25< zookeeper> ^ 20170615 21:30:28< wesnoth-discord-> false! 20170615 21:30:31< wesnoth-discord-> D W E M E R 😛 20170615 21:30:57< wesnoth-discord-> We actually do have a fair amount of lore 20170615 21:31:20< wesnoth-discord-> some, yes 20170615 21:31:21< wesnoth-discord-> Elder Scrolls is an RPG though and as such has more lore. 20170615 21:31:33< wesnoth-discord-> but really rich lore like the post-Fall stuff is all in UMC 20170615 21:31:41< wesnoth-discord-> we don't have *rich* lore 20170615 21:32:01< zookeeper> khalifate has no lore (aside from what kwandulin has done) because its originators didn't design it with those sort of considerations in mind. 20170615 21:32:04< wesnoth-discord-> Define *rich* lore 20170615 21:33:00< wesnoth-discord-> I was just about to say that. I thing wesnoth actually has a decent lore. Not as huge as some others, sure, but it is enough to get lost in it once in a while. 20170615 21:33:02< wesnoth-discord-> tolkein 20170615 21:33:05< wesnoth-discord-> grr martin 20170615 21:33:29< wesnoth-discord-> W O R L D B U I L D I N G 20170615 21:33:38< wesnoth-discord-> *cue @Zerovirus crashing through the wall* 20170615 21:34:00< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth hasn't been around long enough to have a world like Middle Earth 20170615 21:34:08< wesnoth-discord-> Seriously 20170615 21:34:34< wesnoth-discord-> A man spent a huge portion of his life creating that universe 20170615 21:34:44< wesnoth-discord-> granted 20170615 21:34:55< zookeeper> well gee. wesnoth is a hodgepodge of dozens of complete amateur writers everyone doing their own thing. of course it's not middle-earth or westeros lore-wise. 20170615 21:34:58< wesnoth-discord-> we can't have *that* level of lore 20170615 21:35:10< wesnoth-discord-> but we don't really have a cohesive *world* 20170615 21:35:25< zookeeper> what's uncohesive about it? 20170615 21:35:42< wesnoth-discord-> There are some... Issues 20170615 21:36:05< wesnoth-discord-> See also: Eastern Invasion 20170615 21:36:41< wesnoth-discord-> But there are people working, or who were working, to fix some of that 20170615 21:36:43< wesnoth-discord-> Because granted the campaigns (the mainline ones, at least) do loosly fit together, we've never established the broad "rules" of the world in which they all exist 20170615 21:37:36< wesnoth-discord-> neither are they presented in chronological order 20170615 21:37:56< wesnoth-discord-> Most of them present simple arctypes like "the Queen of Wesnoth" 20170615 21:38:04< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz Could be a nice little project for the future, don't you think? ^^ 20170615 21:38:38< zookeeper> i mean of course i agree that the world is pretty generic and there's not much depth to most things, but even despite that you have to consider the medium. a TBS that can't throw walls of text at the player every minute, that has a ton of different campaigns all of which have gameplay requirements, like, actually having diverse enemies anywhere you end up going, etc etc. 20170615 21:38:48< wesnoth-discord-> yet we offer no details about the ruling body itself, really 20170615 21:38:52< wesnoth-discord-> who is the royal family? 20170615 21:38:56< wesnoth-discord-> why are they the royal family? 20170615 21:39:03< wesnoth-discord-> Um 20170615 21:39:23< wesnoth-discord-> Actually we do know a decent amount about the royals 20170615 21:39:29< wesnoth-discord-> how is the royalty family changed in the different time periods? 20170615 21:39:34< wesnoth-discord-> what is the structure of the government? 20170615 21:39:50< wesnoth-discord-> is it an absolute monarchy? is there a Wesnothian Parliment? 20170615 21:39:50< zookeeper> um, yeah. it's like a hereditary thing, i don't see what's unclear about who the royal family is or why they're the royal family. 20170615 21:40:19< wesnoth-discord-> Anyways, I realize that you really wish that Wesnoth could be an AAA title 20170615 21:40:34< wesnoth-discord-> sure 20170615 21:40:38< wesnoth-discord-> Er, a *good* AAA title 20170615 21:40:56< wesnoth-discord-> *ME: Andromeda echos in the distance* 20170615 21:40:57-!- NightCameAtLast [~NightCame@host81-152-194-84.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: I will vanish in the morning light; I was only an invention of darkness.] 20170615 21:41:16< wesnoth-discord-> but really, it's undeniably true that we care more about code than lore 😛 20170615 21:41:22< wesnoth-discord-> at least, in terms of creating it 20170615 21:41:29< wesnoth-discord-> Not everyone feels that way 20170615 21:41:54< zookeeper> lore isn't a magic substance you can just have someone make you a bottle of, and then you can pour it on anything you want and then suddenly it "has more lore". 20170615 21:42:10< wesnoth-discord-> But a huge discussion about fixing EI took place and no-one stepped up to make any of the changes 20170615 21:42:29< wesnoth-discord-> wasn't tad working on that 20170615 21:44:37< wesnoth-discord-> I don't think so 20170615 21:46:29< zookeeper> you can't take an existing established and setting with tons of content and "create lore" just like that. for example does wesnoth have some kind of parliamentary body? 20170615 21:46:36< zookeeper> let's say it does. okay, now what? where are you going to insert that information in-game? you can't just "make delfador mention it at point X" because then it's a completely meaningless isolated piece of information. 20170615 21:46:38< zookeeper> if you add lore, you should integrate it somehow, sort of weave it into everything else. and in this case, that would clearly be very complicated, because such a parliamentary body would come into play in a whole lot of places. 20170615 21:48:26< zookeeper> of course there can be lots of isolated little nuggets of fun trivia that would make the world feel more real and detailed and whatnot, it doesn't all have to be really well-integrated. but big things should be. 20170615 21:49:03< zookeeper> and the fact is that the world is simply not designed with that sort of level of detail in mind, and it's really hard to add in afterwards without it feeling tacked-on. 20170615 21:50:08< wesnoth-discord-> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=42944 20170615 21:50:23-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170615 21:51:16-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 21:53:51-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@75-167-205-33.cdrr.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 21:54:46< wesnoth-discord-> t'is interesting 20170615 21:54:50< wesnoth-discord-> why have i not seen this post before 20170615 21:55:23< wesnoth-discord-> Because you don't look at the writers'forum? IDK 20170615 21:58:27< wesnoth-discord-> Really though, the only way you're going to get good lore is to have more stories 20170615 21:59:53< wesnoth-discord-> Some will be UMC campaigns (i.e. IftU/AtS/Genesis), but because of the nature of the game, some will have to be in other formats 20170615 22:00:08< wesnoth-discord-> Look at Overwatch, for example 20170615 22:01:09< wesnoth-discord-> Not much story in-game, but there are associated, concerted efforts in film and such 20170615 22:02:40< wesnoth-discord-> indeed 20170615 22:03:15< Kwandulin> "Mainline scenarios" could also be an option to implement more lore: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=43608 20170615 22:04:06< wesnoth-discord-> I was thinking about scenarios 20170615 22:04:49< wesnoth-discord-> But that's just going to give you little points of data, not a fabric of lore 20170615 22:08:48-!- THERetroGamerNY [THERetroGa@pool-68-133-48-135.bflony.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 20170615 22:10:13< wesnoth-discord-> There was a novel someone wrote.. taking place in the wesnoth universe. Wait a sec.. ah here we go, "Stone Remembers": https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=30782&start=0 20170615 22:10:25< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah, I've not read it 20170615 22:11:11< wesnoth-discord-> I'd like to write a novelization of my campaign, but I need to finish the campaign first >< 20170615 22:11:25-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F7CBAF45596AB0792ECA6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: [endlevel]] 20170615 22:12:24< wesnoth-discord-> Perfectly know that feeling... I wrote a poem about the campaign somewhere in dev-phase. Now, the whole plot changed and the poem does not fit anymore... 20170615 22:12:41< wesnoth-discord-> Hmm here's a thought: have you played Shadows of Mordor? 20170615 22:13:22< wesnoth-discord-> As you go through the game, you unlock little pieces of lore about various things 20170615 22:14:07< wesnoth-discord-> Which are accessed through a menu rather than injected into the gameplay 20170615 22:16:00< wesnoth-discord-> have do have it, but haven't played it yet. Somehow I spend all the time with wesnoth... 20170615 22:16:54< wesnoth-discord-> I've only played a couple hours 20170615 22:19:32-!- zookeeper [zookeeper@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170615 22:24:38-!- cc___ [~ac@2001:910:113f:1:6a05:caff:fe1c:1627] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 22:26:50-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170615 22:32:35-!- cc___ [~ac@2001:910:113f:1:6a05:caff:fe1c:1627] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170615 22:47:08< DoctorFender1031> Well, this settles that old argument... https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/06/15/developers-use-spaces-make-money-use-tabs/ 20170615 22:52:11< wesnoth-discord-> Speaking of lore. Does anyone know when Kapou'e dies, if that is known? I'm working on a campaign .. taking place at about, um, 873 YW. That means He would be about 50 years old. Could he still be "the" leader at that age? How old do get orcs anyways? @DoctorFender1031 which one? 20170615 22:54:07< wesnoth-discord-> Oh wait. I see. :O Did not know that this is actually a thing. 20170615 22:55:07< DoctorFender1031> It came up in here last week even. 20170615 22:56:10< DoctorFender1031> @Bitron, it's your story, do what you want. I don't know of anything that would make it contradict current canon. 20170615 22:56:25-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.90.67.72] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 22:58:00-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.170.86] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 23:01:02< DoctorFender1031> @Bitron, I treat anything not explicitly nor implicitly contradicted by canon as fair game. In my own story that I'm working on, I establish a bunch of stuff that's... quite ambitious in terms of lore that could exist to contradict it, but since no such lore currently exists, there's no reason the story doesn't fit. 20170615 23:01:29< wesnoth-discord-> One of the reasons why wesnoth has a tough time on getting decent lore, I guess. :P I'd like to stick as close to *mainline* lore as possible. 20170615 23:01:40< DoctorFender1031> (Then again, I am somewhat worried that one of these days, someone will mainline something which would toss the canon that my story establishes out the window, so...) 20170615 23:01:48< wesnoth-discord-> @Bitron orcs die young, but I could see Kapou'e being an aged leader at 50. 20170615 23:03:34-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.90.67.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170615 23:03:52< DoctorFender1031> @Bitron, that's what I mean. Anything not in mainline is essentially fanfic and can be accepted or discarded as one sees fit. There are a couple of add-ons which are more well-established fanon than fanfic at this point, but since those all occur after UtBS, they don't do much in the way of interfering with main-history wesnoth. 20170615 23:04:08< DoctorFender1031> @pydsigner, where is that information established? 20170615 23:04:46< wesnoth-discord-> DoctorFender1031: I don't remember exactly, have to look it up 20170615 23:05:47-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20170615 23:06:52< wesnoth-discord-> I acutally thought about introducing a son of the son of the black eye, though... @DocFender which is probably some thing more ambitious, i guess. :P `> The oldest known orcs have been around 50 to 60 years of age, but very few individuals ever live to see over two or three decades before meeting their end either in war or by the hand of one of their kin.` - from the wiki. 20170615 23:07:02< sevu> DoctorFender1031, I came across this too, and thought about posting it here too. 20170615 23:08:10< DoctorFender1031> @Bitron well, then, that settles it. Rare, but not unheard of for him to still be around at 50. 20170615 23:08:19< DoctorFender1031> sevu, the SO link, you mean? 20170615 23:08:23< sevu> yes 20170615 23:10:43< wesnoth-discord-> @Bitron ah yep, that's what I was looking for 20170615 23:11:01< wesnoth-discord-> It's in the in-game help as well 20170615 23:13:40< wesnoth-discord-> I think the outro for SotBE is agreeable as well 20170615 23:14:33< wesnoth-discord-> I see. Thats good. But that means I have to get another orcish leader for the second vilkai campaign, which will take place at around 892 YW. Even Kapou's children could be dead by then. 20170615 23:15:42< wesnoth-discord-> Hmm yup, the epilogue for SotBE indicates that he reigned for at least 14 years 20170615 23:16:21< wesnoth-discord-> `Kapou'e reigned for many years` 20170615 23:17:20< wesnoth-discord-> `During the eighth year of Kapou'e's reign, and then again in the fourteenth` 20170615 23:18:10< wesnoth-discord-> what happened during those years? 20170615 23:19:22< wesnoth-discord-> Invasions by the elves and then the humans 20170615 23:20:10< wesnoth-discord-> (successfully repelled) 20170615 23:23:23< wesnoth-discord-> Oh, but he already claimed the position in 843 YW during SotBE. Those should be the onces mentioned in the timeline at 852 YW (elvish invasion) and again 858 YW (human invasion) where SotBE ends (according to the timeline) - by 873, he would have reigned for almost 30 years. Is there mentioned how old kapou'e is when SotBE starts? I assumed he's about 18 to 20 years old. Does seem a little old now that I know they usually dont get 20170615 23:23:23< wesnoth-discord-> that old. 20170615 23:25:04< wesnoth-discord-> Note though, there's no indication that he was killed 20170615 23:26:08< wesnoth-discord-> A leader like Kapou'e is the prototypical orc to die a natural death 20170615 23:27:16< wesnoth-discord-> If you look at the other impressively strong orc leaders in canon, they attack Wesnoth and get killed. 20170615 23:28:08-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170615 23:28:25< wesnoth-discord-> Kapou'e's father is assassinated. 20170615 23:29:24-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@z190230.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 23:33:02< wesnoth-discord-> What makes Kapou'e different is that he's a good administrator 20170615 23:34:02< wesnoth-discord-> He distracts potential threats with mercenary wars 20170615 23:36:54-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20170615 23:37:31< wesnoth-discord-> Thought so as well. Hmn. I thing 56 years is a good age to die (a natural death) for him. 😏 873 YW will be another attempt by humans and elves, but will be stopped before they get too dangerous for kapou'e. At least that is what I planned for that campaign. Kapou'e does not actually have a big role, but a little scene. 20170615 23:41:38-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170615 23:44:32< wesnoth-discord-> Oh wait. Karun dies `soon after` 816YW. That means Kapou'e has to be at least 26 when he claims the leadership at 842 YW, in case he was born around the time Karun died. In that case, Kapou'e would be already 57 years old in 873 YW. Damned. 20170615 23:48:03< wesnoth-discord-> given that Karun was the leader for 55 years '(761-816 - The Lagacy of Black-Eye Karun)' it seems a little of that Kapou'e was born that late. He as to be even older. 🤔 --- Log closed Fri Jun 16 00:00:01 2017