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20170624 22:02:08< Nobun> celticminstrel: I have a purpose about wmlxgettext:  I would suggest to make the -o parameter a required parameter and not anymore an optional parameter, to prevent that people would use stdout redirection as they used to do in past
20170624 22:03:39< Nobun> If I am right, currently wesnoth pot-update target uses the -o parameter and not the output redirection anymore
20170624 22:04:59< DeFender1031> Why should output redirection be disallowed?
20170624 22:07:07< Nobun> becouse it can lead to problems on undesired text encoding
20170624 22:07:26< DeFender1031> how so?
20170624 22:07:26< celticminstrel> Nobun: Better idea.
20170624 22:07:43< celticminstrel> Make -o required, but passing "-" as the filename directs it to stdout.
20170624 22:08:03< celticminstrel> That way, if they really want the output on stdout, they have to explicitly request it.
20170624 22:08:40< Nobun> when you redirect output, you wrote pot file in stdout. Stdout will use its own text encoding, so it would be NOT encoded UTF-8 as you coild expect (so file with output redirection can be NOT utf-8)
20170624 22:09:32< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, what if you want the file to be named "-"?
20170624 22:09:36< Nobun> celticminstrel: yes... it could be a nice idea. Imho I would forbid at all the redirection to avoid problems
20170624 22:09:59< Nobun> DeFender1031: the file should have an extension, if it is actually a pot file
20170624 22:10:03< celticminstrel> DeFender1031: Then... you're out of luck?
20170624 22:10:23< celticminstrel> Using "-" to mean output redirection is precedented; clang/gcc, for example.
20170624 22:10:30< DeFender1031> Nobun, meh, extensions are for people who can't figure life out.
20170624 22:10:48< celticminstrel> Nobun: Output redirection isn't necessarily problematic.
20170624 22:11:14< celticminstrel> If it's piped into a utf8-aware program, or indeed if your terminal is utf8-aware, there should be no issue?
20170624 22:11:34< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, yeah, and they suck too! I always name my output files as just a single symbol... you know... for bookkeeping and organization... reasons...
20170624 22:11:43< celticminstrel> Of course, on Windows, a lot of stuff isn't utf8-aware, so output redirection is definitely problematic on Windows, specifically.
20170624 22:11:46< DeFender1031> (In case it's not clear by now, yes, I'm joking.)
20170624 22:11:52< celticminstrel> :P
20170624 22:12:15< Nobun> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1785
20170624 22:12:57< Nobun> the last issue reported by sevu... if you read the traceback... than wmlxgettext returned a traceback becouse encountered a problem on ASCII encoding
20170624 22:13:16< Nobun> this is surely (I am sure) related to the usage of output redirection
20170624 22:13:56< celticminstrel> Right, but I'm not sure output redirection is always a problem on all machines.
20170624 22:14:01< Nobun> infact, if you use -o file and wmlxgettext creates a concrete file, the file is opened with "utf-8" explicit encoding, so that traceback would be impossible if the -o parameter was used to create file
20170624 22:14:29< Nobun> celticminstrel: what I am asserting is that output redirection MIGHT create problems
20170624 22:14:39< celticminstrel> Sure.
20170624 22:14:43< Nobun> while avoiding it will NEVER create problems
20170624 22:14:55< celticminstrel> But if someone knows that it won't cause problems for them specifically, why should we prevent them from using it?
20170624 22:15:01< DeFender1031> celticminstrel is correct. Redirection of output or output to a console, even if it's in a non-ASCII encoding, is not always a problem, and in fact is perfectly valid in most cases other than when using crippled software.
20170624 22:15:05< Nobun> so. why use again an error-prone syntax?
20170624 22:15:36< Nobun> yes but... I don't get the point
20170624 22:15:42< celticminstrel> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/po/SConscript#L77
20170624 22:16:05< celticminstrel> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/po/CMakeLists.txt#L83
20170624 22:16:19< celticminstrel> Looks like you're correct that the pot-update target uses -o
20170624 22:16:34< DeFender1031> Nobun, I would challenge the notion that disallowing it will never cause problems. It'll never cause encoding problems, sure, but it could create pipelining problems, race conditions, code bloat, more complicated usage, etc.
20170624 22:17:10< Nobun> yes.. becouse it was fixed during a test by loonycyborg, when I said a problem he had during a test he did with wmlxgettext depended by output redirection
20170624 22:17:23< Nobun> he tested that using the -o file resolved the problem
20170624 22:18:30< Nobun> What I mean is I don't see any reason why you should want to write the file in stout and then redirect output to file, if you want to write the file
20170624 22:18:32< DeFender1031> Nobun, that's fine, but that's only one use-case.
20170624 22:19:18< DeFender1031> If someone is piping the output to some other process for some reason, they need STDOUT available.
20170624 22:19:23< celticminstrel> ^
20170624 22:19:42< celticminstrel> You should probably also have STDIN available, actually (not sure if it currently is).
20170624 22:20:10< Nobun> well... currently I think only a scenario when a person could consider using pipe...
20170624 22:20:38< Nobun> we are talking about wmlxgettext wich should be a tool to create a pot file, after all... and should do only this task
20170624 22:20:41< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, also potentially true...
20170624 22:21:04< celticminstrel> Maybe you want to pipe it directly into some other gettext tool.
20170624 22:21:11< Nobun> and I already added a new syntax (for UMC developers) wich erases the needing of STDIN pipe
20170624 22:21:12< celticminstrel> Like msgmerge or something.
20170624 22:21:23< DeFender1031> Nobun, that's a little narrow-minded and short-sighted. Someone could easily want to pipe it into some other tool that makes use of the pot file.
20170624 22:21:30< celticminstrel> Well, no, I wouldn't say it erases the need for a STDIN pipe.
20170624 22:21:32< Nobun> becouse you can avoid to explicitly tell the files to translate, but you can scan recursively an addon directory
20170624 22:21:45< DeFender1031> Nobun, again, that's ONE use-case.
20170624 22:22:00< celticminstrel> If you only want to scan one file, or you want to preprocess the files before scanning, or something... you need STDIN.
20170624 22:22:06< DeFender1031> Nobun, it's somewhat irresponsible for a developer to assume that their use-case is the only use-case.
20170624 22:22:36< celticminstrel> It's good that you have the recursive scanning option - that makes the most common use-case easier. But it's not good to eliminate options just because you don't think they're useful.
20170624 22:22:39< Nobun> DeFender1031: well... it would be IRRESPNSIBLE if I added here without asking before
20170624 22:22:48< Nobun> so please make sure to avoid flame, please
20170624 22:23:34< Nobun> I'm just purposing an idea and trying to understand other opinion at this stage
20170624 22:24:44< Nobun> I'm not trying to replace myself with an official developer, even if the wmlxgettext python tool was written and maintained by me
20170624 22:25:21< DeFender1031> Nobun, I'm not flaming. I'm simply pointing out that you can't make the assumptions you're making.
20170624 22:26:03< Nobun> If I make a wrong assumption, you are free (and welcomed) to explain me why it is wrong
20170624 22:26:42< Nobun> I am not a so experienced developer, so when I write here things, I try to explain my doubts about what was said
20170624 22:27:21< Nobun> what I don't accept is flaming words as "irresponsible" or similar, wich I would never personally use to a person I never speaked before
20170624 22:28:39< Nobun> only wanted to point this thing... now we can continue to discuss about why my assumptions are wrong
20170624 22:28:46< Nobun> I really want to understand
20170624 22:28:47< DeFender1031> Nobun, forgive me, I meant no offence with the word "irresponsible", nor did I directly call you such. Where I come from, it's not an attack to simply use that word, and I'm sorry if you percieved it as one.
20170624 22:28:59< Nobun> no problem.
20170624 22:30:13< DeFender1031> cool. So back the the actual discussion, yes, I can imagine several use-cases which would want STDOUT (and IN, as celmin points out), and therefore disabling it entirely would be undesirable, though DISCOURAGING its use in casual cases which may lead to issues is a good idea.
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20170624 22:36:07< Nobun> DeFender1031: no problem (sorry I had disconnection)
20170624 22:36:24< Nobun> I didn't notice (my connection is unstable)
20170624 22:36:58< Nobun> I will retype what I wrote before (perhaps it was not sended here).
20170624 22:37:37< Nobun> <Nobun> celticminstrel, DeFender1031: however... STDIN pipe should be never causes encoding problems
20170624 22:37:38< Nobun> <Nobun> I was thinking a bit, but if you use stdin... (for writing file) the file would be added to command line... and the script will open the file explicitly with encoding='utf8'
20170624 22:37:38< Nobun> <Nobun> If I understood corretly what you say is that there are case where wmlxgettext output should be piped to other tools... exactly?
20170624 22:38:24< celticminstrel> In case you missed it, DeFender1031 also said this:
20170624 22:38:25< celticminstrel> [Jun 24@6:30:13pm] DeFender1031: cool. So back the the actual discussion, yes, I can imagine several use-cases which would want STDOUT (and IN, as celmin points out), and therefore disabling it entirely would be undesirable, though DISCOURAGING its use in casual cases which may lead to issues is a good idea.
20170624 22:39:29< Nobun> thank for re-typing
20170624 22:39:35< Nobun> I did lost this reply
20170624 22:40:53< Nobun> hmm... if I remember correctly I already added a warning if the -o option is not used
20170624 22:41:32< Nobun> perhaps I could change the warning in something better
20170624 22:41:40< Nobun> let me check...
20170624 22:43:37< Nobun> yes... currently there is a warning wich is displayed only when --warn-all is enabled.
20170624 22:43:57< Nobun> Perhaps another warning message (always enabled) should be a better idea
20170624 22:45:04< DeFender1031> I dunno, I like celmin's idea about requiring -o, but allowing "-" to mean STDOUT
20170624 22:45:41< DeFender1031> (the joking about "what if I want it named that" aside)
20170624 22:46:13< Nobun> or, perhaps,  -o STDOUT to write to stdout
20170624 22:46:52< DeFender1031> or that. or -o ''
20170624 22:47:06< DeFender1031> (though passing an empty string can get iffy on some systems, so maybe not.)
20170624 22:47:29< DeFender1031> the point is, some magic value to mean STDOUT
20170624 22:47:51< Nobun> perhaps I would suggest -o STDOUT
20170624 22:47:52< DeFender1031> I lean toward - because that's a somewhat accepted idiom already
20170624 22:48:00< DeFender1031> (as celmin mentioned)
20170624 22:48:07< Nobun> ah. I didn't know it
20170624 22:48:38< DeFender1031> Nobun: <celticminstrel> Using "-" to mean output redirection is precedented; clang/gcc, for example.
20170624 22:48:41< Nobun> well... if it is an already used idiom, we can use that idiom than
20170624 22:49:23< Nobun> ok. understood now
20170624 22:49:51< DeFender1031> And many programs also accept "-" to mean "STDIN" for their input files as well, g. php.
20170624 22:49:54< DeFender1031> eg*
20170624 22:54:38< Nobun> nice to know... I use gcc, for example, but I never know about it before today :P
20170624 23:03:34< Nobun> Is it too much if I use -o required argument wich prints a warning if the '-o -' is used (writing to stdout)
20170624 23:03:38< Nobun> ?
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20170624 23:07:15< Nobun1> well... I answered myself. I dropped the warning message. After all, forcing the usage of the -o option would be enough to ensure that the user is using STDOUT on purpose
20170624 23:10:10< Nobun1> good night all
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--- Log closed Sun Jun 25 00:00:13 2017