--- Log opened Sat Jul 15 00:00:39 2017
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20170715 03:15:46< irker438> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master d0b4250c36a5 / data/core/about.cfg: Adjust appearance of my name in the credits https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d0b4250c36a5f922e1c25fd145147f18b7e6e156
20170715 03:15:46< irker438> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 98dd40931477 / data/core/about.cfg: Add Dan Gerhards (beetlenaut) to Campaign Design credits https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/98dd4093147718022534e9f6bf95844b629a552b
20170715 03:15:47< irker438> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 61fed391ebf4 / changelog players_changelog: SotA: Changelog entries https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/61fed391ebf4cec20e63350443b4ab78dc653bd2
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20170715 04:16:53< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#14434 (master - 61fed39 : sigurdfdragon): The build passed.
20170715 04:16:53< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/253836576
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20170715 04:46:37< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: how are the shaders?
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20170715 05:06:01< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: Didn't get much further this week. I'll do more tomorrow probably.
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20170715 15:04:12< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: where was that NR report again?
20170715 15:04:14< vultraz_iOS> i can't find it
20170715 15:09:51< zookeeper> uh, the what?
20170715 15:10:02< zookeeper> oh
20170715 15:10:04< zookeeper> the thing
20170715 15:10:14< vultraz_iOS> the report about NR S5a where the event has the wrong trigger
20170715 15:10:17< vultraz_iOS> location
20170715 15:10:22< vultraz_iOS> i can'tfind it
20170715 15:12:23< zookeeper> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=46327 ?
20170715 15:12:56< vultraz_iOS> yes
20170715 15:12:59< vultraz_iOS> thanks
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20170715 17:47:55< irker446> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:accelerated_rendering bf5133bbf6a6 / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/05a_01_The_Pursuit.cfg: NR S5a: fixed backdoor lever opening the wrong location https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/bf5133bbf6a6fa85ae42961fba9b47c301e8a4c8
20170715 17:48:08< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: ^ will be cherry-picked to master next time I rebase
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20170715 21:07:10< vultraz_iOS> this damn "draw text in hex" thing is really annoying...
20170715 21:07:18< vultraz_iOS> it should *NOT* be so damn complicated
20170715 21:10:18< vultraz_iOS> I really think the only way to properly manage this is constantly add and remove floating labels
20170715 21:12:28< DeFender1031> I'd offer to help you talk it out, but I feel like I've been more frustrating than helpful to you lately.
20170715 21:12:59< DeFender1031> (My apologies for that, by the way.)
20170715 21:13:07< vultraz_iOS> it's alright
20170715 21:13:20< vultraz_iOS> lemme try to reason this out..
20170715 21:15:03< vultraz_iOS> so you have a bunch of markers that are meant to be drawn every turn
20170715 21:15:14< vultraz_iOS> at each of those locs we need to draw the terrain defense
20170715 21:16:06< vultraz_iOS> and that happens every turn...
20170715 21:16:12< celticminstrel> Argh, so hot...
20170715 21:16:20< celticminstrel> My computer really hates the heat.
20170715 21:16:31< celticminstrel> I mean that shouldn't be surprising, I suppose.
20170715 21:16:39< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, AC?
20170715 21:17:07< celticminstrel> Even when we do put it on it doesn't seem to do anything to the temperature in my room... though it sure does get cold on the lower floors...
20170715 21:17:29< vultraz_iOS> on master, drawing uses the TTF codepath and creates a new surface
20170715 21:17:31< celticminstrel> It does dehumidify at least. so not totally useless...)
20170715 21:17:38< vultraz_iOS> then adds that to the drawing queue
20170715 21:18:22< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: well, heat rises. If you don't have central cooling and you're just pumping cold air to the bottom floors you'll just be shoving all the heat up 
20170715 21:18:26< vultraz_iOS> anyway..
20170715 21:18:42< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, ah, you have central. Yeah, the farther you are from the unit, the less it helps. I hate central. It's supposedly more "energy efficient" except that it's all-or-nothing, and doesn't actually do the job.
20170715 21:18:51< celticminstrel> Ah, is that so?
20170715 21:19:32< celticminstrel> (I'm mildly amused by the fact that vultraz_iOS and DeFender1031 appear to have said the opposite here. >_> )
20170715 21:20:07< vultraz_iOS> DO you have central?
20170715 21:20:13< celticminstrel> Think so?
20170715 21:20:21< DeFender1031> Hahahahaha
20170715 21:20:42< vultraz_iOS> :|
20170715 21:20:49< celticminstrel> It's controlled by a thermostat in one room and the unit itself is probably in the basement somewhere near the furnace (though I'm not really sure of its location).
20170715 21:21:03< vultraz_iOS> then central
20170715 21:21:09< DeFender1031> Then it's what I said.
20170715 21:21:13< vultraz_iOS> non-central would be wall units, etc
20170715 21:21:49< vultraz_iOS> but if he has central and it's not cooling upstairs that means there's no output there :|
20170715 21:22:11< vultraz_iOS> ie someone designed a shitty system that still pumps all the cold air to the bottom of the house.
20170715 21:22:22< celticminstrel> There's an output. It just doesn't do much.
20170715 21:22:32< celticminstrel> (It works for heat in the winter, not so well for AC in the summer.)
20170715 21:22:55< vultraz_iOS> then it's a bad system
20170715 21:23:12< celticminstrel> Probably.
20170715 21:23:39< vultraz_iOS> an effective system should be effective
20170715 21:24:09< celticminstrel> Nice work, Einstein. :P
20170715 21:24:35< vultraz_iOS> If it's not effective then it's not functioning effectively
20170715 21:25:01< celticminstrel> It's not too useful to just keep putting out tautologies, you know. :P
20170715 21:25:56< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, like I said, I haven't encountered a central system that doesn't do that (aside from big industrial ones in things like office buildings, but that's different)
20170715 21:26:36< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, vultraz is a member ot the tautology club because he wanted to be a member of the tautology club.
20170715 21:31:33< DeFender1031> anyway, vultraz_iOS, the defense markers are drawn when, exactly? when mousing over a terrain with a unit selected, any other time?
20170715 21:41:21< vultraz_iOS> Ok ya know I could draw things every frame if uhh
20170715 21:41:33< vultraz_iOS> I didn't have to do the surface manipulation for the text outline
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20170715 21:42:53< vultraz_iOS> DeFender1031: is it more common to have text shadow or text outline?
20170715 21:43:31< DeFender1031> uhhh...?
20170715 21:43:40< DeFender1031> isn't that a style choice?
20170715 21:44:51< vultraz_iOS> K
20170715 21:45:09 * DeFender1031 also has no idea where this question is coming from or why it's relevant to the current situation...
20170715 21:45:29< vultraz_iOS> Floating labels have a black outline effect
20170715 21:45:52< DeFender1031> Okay...
20170715 21:46:17< DeFender1031> And the outline is somehow harder to do than a shadow would be?
20170715 21:47:05< vultraz_iOS> Probably not
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20170715 21:47:47< celticminstrel> A shadow means simply drawing twice with a different color and a slight offset..
20170715 21:47:56< celticminstrel> So I think an outline would be harder.
20170715 21:48:03< celticminstrel> I also think an outline is probably better.
20170715 21:48:35< celticminstrel> I imagine you could use a shader to do the outline though.
20170715 21:48:36< DeFender1031> Btw, in that context, I'd say outline would be a necessity rather than a style choice. In general, text that appears on top of a mixture of undetermined colors can end up becoming unreadable unless it has a contrasting outline (because if it appears over a similar color it can become hard to tell where the text ends and the background begins)
20170715 21:48:54< celticminstrel> ^
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20170715 21:49:07< celticminstrel> A shadow does provide that contrast fairly well.
20170715 21:49:11-!- gfgtdf_ is now known as gfgtdf
20170715 21:49:19< celticminstrel> However, an outline provides it on all sides, not just two, so probably better,
20170715 21:50:11< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, exactly. I've seen some rather ugly cases of "shadow should provide enough contrast" to know that's not always sufficient.
20170715 21:50:44< DeFender1031> (That said, css had shadow long before outline, which is still not supported everywhere IIRC.)
20170715 21:51:10< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, tl;dr: doing away with the outline would be a bad idea.
20170715 21:51:17< vultraz_iOS> alrght
20170715 21:51:33< vultraz_iOS> if i move that functionality to pango_text it means it gets added to the texture cache
20170715 21:52:24< DeFender1031> honestly, is there a reason that SOME of the text styling in the game uses one styling system and some of it uses another?
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20170715 21:52:52< vultraz_iOS> what do you mean?
20170715 21:52:57< vultraz_iOS> ie, what areas are you referring to?
20170715 21:53:13< DeFender1031> some of the styled text in the game uses pango, and others use... i forget the name.
20170715 21:53:21< vultraz_iOS> SDL_TTF
20170715 21:53:26< vultraz_iOS> yeah, we're moving away from TTF
20170715 21:53:41< DeFender1031> no, IIRC there was something else.
20170715 21:53:48< DeFender1031> Something to do with the sidebar?
20170715 21:53:54< vultraz_iOS> eh?
20170715 21:53:59< vultraz_iOS> no idea what you mean
20170715 21:55:10< DeFender1031> I vaguely remember ages ago having a conversation with... possibly zookeeps about whether a unit description can habve markup in it, and I was told that while it might work in the help dialog, it'd explode in the sidebar mouseover IIRC.
20170715 21:55:23< DeFender1031> And it's because the sidebar was using some other system...
20170715 21:55:29< DeFender1031> let me grep my logs, hang on.
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20170715 21:55:54< DeFender1031> Or don't hang on, as this is mostly a tangent anyway. Keep doing whatever you're doing, i'll be back in a minute.
20170715 21:55:57< vultraz_iOS> yeah, the sidebar tooltips use the pango system
20170715 21:56:10< vultraz_iOS> and help uses ttf
20170715 21:56:14< vultraz_iOS> and its own markup
20170715 21:56:22< vultraz_iOS> whereas with pango you just use pango markup
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20170715 21:57:19< celmin> MacOS Classic had outline as a standard text style.
20170715 21:57:30< celmin> Not sure if OSX still has that; I don't recall seeing it.
20170715 21:58:21< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, yes, you are right. The conversation was with shadowm who said "The in-game help doesn't use Pango markup, for example. It uses a completely different markup minilanguage specific to the help browser."
20170715 21:58:37< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, I suppose I misremebered "minilanguage
20170715 21:58:49< DeFender1031> " as having been some name for an actual languag
20170715 21:58:51< celmin> So I guess that's just a case of the string being used in two different places that require two different markup syntaxes.
20170715 21:58:54< DeFender1031> ack, hit enter too soon.
20170715 21:59:12< celmin> I think we should move away from Pango markup TBH.
20170715 21:59:24< DeFender1031> celmin, right. But if the game were to use pango everywhere, then those string could contain markup.
20170715 21:59:31< DeFender1031> AWAY?!
20170715 21:59:32< celmin> Right.
20170715 21:59:39< DeFender1031> why away?
20170715 21:59:47< DeFender1031> and if away, then toward what?
20170715 21:59:58< DeFender1031> (and please don't say "no markup".)
20170715 21:59:58< celmin> I dunno. Something closer to Markdown probably.
20170715 22:00:04< DeFender1031> ew.
20170715 22:00:27< celmin> Or maybe something BBCode-like.
20170715 22:01:09< DeFender1031> markdown is mostly features that wesnoth wouldn't need and doesn't have most of the ones it would.
20170715 22:01:38< celmin> Eh?
20170715 22:01:40< DeFender1031> BBCode-like would be too easily confused with WML
20170715 22:01:57< DeFender1031> markdown is mostly about making lists and links and headings and stuff, no?
20170715 22:01:58< celmin> Well, it could also be BBCode-like with angle brackets instead of square ones.
20170715 22:02:14< DeFender1031> "BBCode-like with angle brackets instead of square ones" you mean, like pango?
20170715 22:02:25< celmin> No, Pango is XML-based.
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20170715 22:02:49< celmin> It's true that Markdown has all that, but I'm not sure what you mean about Markdown lacking things Wesnoth needs.
20170715 22:02:50< DeFender1031> ...
20170715 22:03:04< DeFender1031> colors?
20170715 22:03:06< celmin> BBCode-like with angle brackets would be eg <color=#123456>
20170715 22:03:13< DeFender1031> ah, true.
20170715 22:03:26< celmin> Ah, good point, MD doesn't have anything for colors.
20170715 22:03:41< DeFender1031> text size?
20170715 22:03:58< DeFender1031> i'd think colors and text size are the things for which pango is currently used the most in wesnoth
20170715 22:04:15< celmin> And for colors you have to write out <span color=blah>
20170715 22:04:18< DeFender1031> anyway, i'm not sure YAPL is the way to go either.
20170715 22:04:35< celmin> In fact I think you generally use span for text sizes too.
20170715 22:04:40< celmin> Hmm?
20170715 22:04:54< DeFender1031> "Yet Another Programming Language"
20170715 22:05:07< DeFender1031> which is what your bbcode-with-angle-brackets would be.
20170715 22:05:19< DeFender1031> also there's the fact that there's a lot in pango already
20170715 22:05:31< DeFender1031> and to change it would mean breaking things.
20170715 22:05:37< DeFender1031> what's your issue with pango, anyway?
20170715 22:06:09< celmin> I guess it's probably the verboseness of the span tags or something.
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20170715 22:06:57< DeFender1031> I COULD see supporting your syntax alongside pango as a potential option.
20170715 22:07:51< DeFender1031> either with a special tag that switches from pango to your thing, or by using tags that don't share names with pango and having it translate to pango internally
20170715 22:08:24< DeFender1031> (IE. <color=#123456> would translate automatically to <span color=#123456> before being parsed as pango)
20170715 22:08:26< celmin> Mmhm, though it doesn't necessarily have to be translated to Pango markup internally.
20170715 22:08:32< DeFender1031> also true
20170715 22:08:44< celmin> It's probably inefficient to translate it to Pango - that means parsing twice.
20170715 22:08:52< DeFender1031> if it's not a black box pango parser, then the handling could be added into the parsing itself.
20170715 22:09:07< DeFender1031> I was assuming there was a pango API that we didn't have access to.
20170715 22:09:15< celmin> AIUI, Pango markup isn't the only way to apply text attributes. You could write your own parser which applies the attributes.
20170715 22:09:33< celmin> Presumably you can do stuff like "make chars 52 through 78 bold".
20170715 22:09:40< DeFender1031> anyway, my point is more that whatever markup we allow should be the markup that's used EVERYWHERE.
20170715 22:09:48< DeFender1031> good point.
20170715 22:09:57< celmin> Sure.
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20170715 22:10:18< celmin> Pango provides several attributes that are probably not really needed, though I guess it doesn't hurt to support them anyway.
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--- Log closed Sun Jul 16 00:00:40 2017