--- Log opened Sat Jul 08 00:00:30 2017 20170708 00:07:04-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.91.165.235] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 00:26:09-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@47.91.165.235] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 00:37:49-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 00:37:55-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 00:43:54-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 00:49:00-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 00:58:10< wesnoth-discord-> Wow, that's really interesting to hear, Wesnoth moving to OpenGL. 20170708 00:58:30-!- Yberitrem [~Vadatajs@63-152-56-49.cdrr.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 01:09:26< celticminstrel> ... 20170708 01:25:35-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6F7A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20170708 02:04:30-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 02:09:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 02:14:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 02:20:32-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 02:20:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 02:42:11-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 02:46:38-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 02:51:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 02:51:40-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 02:56:33-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:00:57-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 03:01:57-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:02:35-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:06:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:06:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:09:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:09:55-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:15:42-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:16:02-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:21:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:21:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:23:06-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:23:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:24:22-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:25:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:32:07-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:32:09-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:35:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:35:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:39:32-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:40:16-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:48:47-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:48:51-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:49:57-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:50:06-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 03:54:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 03:58:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 04:17:51-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170708 04:38:24-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20170708 04:52:41-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 04:58:28< wesnoth-discord-> It is something that would definitely require quite a bit of testing, once the initial implementation is complete. To be clear though - I have not heard a 100% definite "yes" as far as OpenGL being in 1.14, it's just currently the more likely of the two options, based on what seems to currently be going on. 20170708 04:58:58-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 05:00:09< wesnoth-discord-> The performance I'm getting locally is an incredible improvement compared to master, just FTR 20170708 05:01:24< wesnoth-discord-> I'm thinking more and more that pushing back 1.14 is worth it. 20170708 05:03:09< wesnoth-discord-> (I say locally because I have some local changes that have increased performance beyond what is on the remote branch) 20170708 05:05:22< wesnoth-discord-> So, to TC01's question earlier, does that mean pushing back the Steam release as well? Or do you think it would make sense to release 1.12 on Steam earlier, since it sounds like the delay would be ~1 year? 20170708 05:06:09< wesnoth-discord-> I don't know. 20170708 05:06:18< wesnoth-discord-> That's a good question, and I don't know. 20170708 05:07:16< wesnoth-discord-> alright 20170708 05:20:44-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|Zzzzzz 20170708 05:21:13< celmin|Zzzzzz> @Vultraz has said that without considering the alternatives BTW. 20170708 05:21:30< wesnoth-discord-> which alternatives? 20170708 05:22:57< celmin|Zzzzzz> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=614581#p614581 20170708 05:23:28< celmin|Zzzzzz> Profiling. 20170708 05:23:34< celmin|Zzzzzz> Find the bottlenecks. 20170708 05:23:39< celmin|Zzzzzz> Optimize them. 20170708 05:24:00< celmin|Zzzzzz> If you do that, chances are you won't need to push back the release. 20170708 05:24:06< celmin|Zzzzzz> I can't be certain, mind you. 20170708 05:24:13< wesnoth-discord-> well coffee has fixed one bug and is working on another one 20170708 05:24:34< wesnoth-discord-> But I really can't be bothered to do extensive profiling and dealing with the messy old code myself. 20170708 05:24:39< celmin|Zzzzzz> But you're not even interested in trying. It has to be attempted, at least. 20170708 05:24:42< wesnoth-discord-> Not when I have a much better solution that I'm also working on. 20170708 05:24:54< celmin|Zzzzzz> Before deciding whether to push back the release, at least try it, 20170708 05:24:58< wesnoth-discord-> Really, that's exactly it. I'm not interested in trying. 20170708 05:25:01< celmin|Zzzzzz> Or get someone else to try it. 20170708 05:25:09< celmin|Zzzzzz> I don't mean you personally have to try it. 20170708 05:26:26< wesnoth-discord-> who 20170708 05:26:36< wesnoth-discord-> our team is too small 20170708 05:27:40< wesnoth-discord-> Who has both the time and skill to go through the hideous rendering code on master and sort out performance issues. 20170708 05:28:39< wesnoth-discord-> I don't have the time, you don't have the time, jyrki doesn't have the time, sinda isn't familiar enough with the codebase. 20170708 05:28:54< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper doesn't have the skill 20170708 05:29:05< wesnoth-discord-> gfgtdf probably doesn't have the time and plus i haven't seen him at all recently 20170708 05:34:06-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 05:34:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 05:47:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 05:48:30-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:03:34-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:03:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:05:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:06:05-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:09:32-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:11:22-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:16:02-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:16:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:36:02-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:37:43-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 06:39:19-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 06:39:42-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 07:59:42-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 07:59:48-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 08:10:22< wesnoth-discord-> I may well have the time to profile. I believe it would be significantly less effort than OpenGL. 20170708 08:10:58< wesnoth-discord-> Just not right now when I don't have my gaming PC available. (That situation should change after about a week.) 20170708 08:14:04-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 08:19:42< Kwandulin> A release on Steam could possibly attract more devs 20170708 08:28:25-!- irco [~irco@HSI-KBW-091-089-111-002.hsi2.kabelbw.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170708 08:30:22< wesnoth-discord-> that's definitely one of the hopes 20170708 08:39:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 08:58:53-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 09:00:35-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 10:23:01-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170708 10:33:37-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 10:44:34-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 12:24:13-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 12:32:16-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 12:52:28-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 12:54:33-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 13:21:20-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 13:48:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 13:48:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:13:20-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170708 14:17:16-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:32:37-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@63-152-56-49.cdrr.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:43:44-!- Kwandulin2 [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:45:08-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170708 14:47:58-!- THERetroGamerNY [Heuristics@pool-68-133-48-135.bflony.fios.verizon.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:50:11-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 14:54:19-!- Kwandulin2 [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAA052767FBA251EC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 14:57:07-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20170708 15:09:14-!- celmin|Zzzzzz is now known as celticminstrel 20170708 15:13:08-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 15:34:44-!- THERetroGamerNY [Heuristics@pool-68-133-48-135.bflony.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Be Blessed!] 20170708 15:39:52-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.63.51.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 16:05:26-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 16:24:33-!- starscream [~zf@natsaa.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20170708 16:27:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 16:31:36-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAC0B370BFFD560587.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 16:36:58-!- starscream [~zf@natsaa.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 16:58:34-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170708 17:02:30-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:04:58< wesnoth-discord-> Let's be honest; we can't really afford to push the release off for a year 20170708 17:08:01< wesnoth-discord-> The problem is also whether or not someone is even available and able to fix up the SDL2 software rendering, or alternatively to help speed up the OpenGL support. 20170708 17:08:04< wesnoth-discord-> I heard the game is to be on steam since last autumn 20170708 17:08:08< wesnoth-discord-> Is it out already? 20170708 17:08:16< wesnoth-discord-> I used to love the game when I was child 20170708 17:08:42< wesnoth-discord-> Or someone has to make the call the release 1.12 on Steam. 20170708 17:09:29< wesnoth-discord-> @Flameheart It's run into some performance problems, which at this point likely means it'll be pushed back again. 20170708 17:09:46< wesnoth-discord-> The game is massively wonderful 20170708 17:09:57< wesnoth-discord-> @pydsigner So far, it seems there's no one willing/able to do any of those things. 20170708 17:10:04< wesnoth-discord-> I still love the old days when spending hundreds of hours to beat campaigns 20170708 17:11:10< wesnoth-discord-> @Pentarctagon jyrkive just said that he plans to profile when he has a computer again 20170708 17:11:50< wesnoth-discord-> He said he might have time to do that, unless I'm reading it overly pessimisticly. 20170708 17:11:56< wesnoth-discord-> @jyrkive 20170708 17:12:31< wesnoth-discord-> Your reading is indeed overly pessimistic. I do plan to profile the game and look for bottlenecks. 20170708 17:12:48< wesnoth-discord-> Oh, well in that case, great πŸ˜ƒ 20170708 17:12:57< wesnoth-discord-> But I obviously don't know if there *are* any bottlenecks which can be optimized to reach high enough performance. 20170708 17:16:33< wesnoth-discord-> So, to summarize: 1) jyrkive is going to try to find any bottlenecks in the current rendering that could improve performance enough. If these bottlenecks exist, it'd probably be a lot faster to fix them than wait for OpenGL support. 2) vultraz is working on OpenGL support. This would likely mean waiting until at least mid 2018. 3) We put Wesnoth 1.12 on Steam. This could be done pretty quickly. 20170708 17:17:44< wesnoth-discord-> If I don't find bottlenecks, then I'll help Vultraz with OpenGL. Unlike him, I have graphics programming and OpenGL ES experience. (OGL and OGL ES are similar enough that ES experience is useful for desktop OpenGL as well.) 20170708 17:21:31< wesnoth-discord-> Alright, cool. So #3 would then depend on if #1 pans out, and if not, how long it would take for #2 to be done with both of you working on it. 20170708 17:24:57< celmin> FTR, I've also done some work towards OpenGL. 20170708 17:26:22< celmin> Convertign IPF chains into shader programs. 20170708 17:26:40< wesnoth-discord-> Cool. πŸ˜ƒ 20170708 17:27:01-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:27:33< celmin> ^Converting 20170708 17:38:03-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:39:25-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Client Quit] 20170708 17:39:58-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:53:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 17:53:10-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:56:35-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-160-34.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 17:56:39-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300760F12B3BAC0B370BFFD560587.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: [endlevel]] 20170708 18:03:21-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170708 18:06:54-!- crimson_penguin [~ben@wesnoth/developer/crimsonpenguin] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 18:07:39< wesnoth-discord-> can some of you guys balance the game a bit before pulling it out yet? 20170708 18:08:05< wesnoth-discord-> in 1v1 loyalist still bash drakes ez 20170708 18:08:15< wesnoth-discord-> so as knalgans vs undead 20170708 18:08:30< wesnoth-discord-> drake and undead simply dont have a good answer in those match ups 20170708 18:10:01< Soliton> you may want to post lots of replays to support those claims. 20170708 18:13:01-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170708 18:22:34-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 18:23:59< DeFender1031> The problem with steam is that while it might attract more devs, it'll only do so if the release is sufficiently impressive, or else the first impression will be ruined, and people will think "what is this garbage" and be turned off from it. It's kind of a chicken and egg. As @Pentarctagon said, that leaves the three options of profile and fix, finish the accellerated rendering port, or release 1.12. The first may not be doable, 20170708 18:24:00< DeFender1031> or may not be enough. The second will take a long time. The third is feasible but may also end up turning people off as 1.12 is still rather buggy, and as well because 1.14 will break 1.12 stuff, which may piss people off. 20170708 18:25:18< zookeeper> DeFender1031, uh, i don't think 1.12 would elicit a "this is garbage" impression if 1.13 wouldn't :p 20170708 18:26:12< DeFender1031> zookeeper, what do you mean? 20170708 18:27:11< zookeeper> i mean that the difference in first impressions that a person would get from 1.12 and from 1.13/1.14 is largely negligible. 20170708 18:28:14< zookeeper> if someone would think wesnoth 1.13/1.14 looks great, then there's no way they'd think that 1.12 looks like garbage. 20170708 18:31:20< wesnoth-discord-> wesnoth looks garbage for most people in their first impression 20170708 18:31:27< wesnoth-discord-> It is a deep game 20170708 18:31:42< wesnoth-discord-> people may not fall in love with it in their first glance 20170708 18:31:53< wesnoth-discord-> but they will love it the 2nd or 3rd try 20170708 18:32:20< wesnoth-discord-> I liked it right from the first impression in December 2015. πŸ˜ƒ 20170708 18:32:48< wesnoth-discord-> I have nothing against pixel art style, and I like turn-based strategy in general. 20170708 18:32:56< wesnoth-discord-> I started playing this game since 2010. Tbh my first try of this game was very unpleasant 20170708 18:33:14< zookeeper> @jyrkive, if you like turn-based strategy, how had you managed to not try wesnoth until 2015? 20170708 18:33:24< wesnoth-discord-> but due to some coincedence, maybe luck, I had the chance to try it several more times later 20170708 18:33:33< wesnoth-discord-> and I fall in love with the game deeply 20170708 18:33:46< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: I have a *lot* of games in my backlog, from a large variety of genres. 20170708 18:33:51< wesnoth-discord-> starting to understand what it bears is way bigger than it simply "looks" like 20170708 18:34:07< zookeeper> @jyrkive, fair enough 20170708 18:34:32< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper is still alive and maintaining the game? 20170708 18:34:32< wesnoth-discord-> wow 20170708 18:34:32< zookeeper> i take it that you had heard of it earlier, though? 20170708 18:34:37< wesnoth-discord-> I'm just picking the most interesting games I come across. I actually tried playing Wesnoth because I wanted to help develop the project: not the other way around. 20170708 18:35:22< zookeeper> @Flameheart, oh you're that flameheart guy from the forums years ago? righty. where would i go? :p 20170708 18:35:31< wesnoth-discord-> no.... 20170708 18:35:37< wesnoth-discord-> I never went to the forum before 20170708 18:35:48< zookeeper> oh, okay. i just remember someone else then. 20170708 18:35:56< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: If you're asking me, yes. I originally heard of Wesnoth back in mid-2000s. 20170708 18:36:05< wesnoth-discord-> But I didn't have a gaming PC at that time. 😦 20170708 18:36:11< wesnoth-discord-> I only play and talk with other players in lobby 20170708 18:37:30< wesnoth-discord-> does anyone know if turin is still active those days 20170708 18:37:38< wesnoth-discord-> I kinda miss him and his mods before 20170708 18:38:13< zookeeper> @jyrkive, unlike now, back then you _didn't_ need a gaming pc to run wesnoth, mostly any garbage system would do :> 20170708 18:38:28< zookeeper> no, turin has been gone for ages 20170708 18:38:32< wesnoth-discord-> this game can run np on even win 1998 20170708 18:38:50< wesnoth-discord-> I dont think it need an alienware overclock to run perfectly 20170708 18:38:51< wesnoth-discord-> XD 20170708 18:39:26< wesnoth-discord-> You guys are still using irc as chat tool over so many years? 20170708 18:40:49< wesnoth-discord-> tbh thats massively nerd lol 20170708 18:40:52< wesnoth-discord-> but I like it 20170708 18:41:51< wesnoth-discord-> Hey, IRC isn't that difficult to use. (I'm in IRC as well, but only in the Wesnoth development channel.) 20170708 18:42:29< wesnoth-discord-> irc is really ancient I think... 20170708 18:43:16< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah. It was originally founded in 1990, before WWW existed. 20170708 18:43:20< wesnoth-discord-> purely chat tool no avatars no pictures no anothing else 20170708 18:43:50< wesnoth-discord-> It's still perfectly fine for text-based chat, IMO. 20170708 18:45:21< wesnoth-discord-> to Soliton: loyalist OP vs drakes, and knalgans OP vs undead has been a long accepted fact in wesnoth 1v1 online competetive community. I cannot provide any replays, but wesnoth ladder site and most pvp players can confirm this 20170708 18:46:16< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I was saying it the other direction. 20170708 18:46:17< wesnoth-discord-> They have lot of replays for this, too. Basically drakes found it hard to have up to only 40% dodge rate and -10% pierce armor vs spearman and bowman spam 20170708 18:46:51-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 18:47:10< wesnoth-discord-> whilst saurians are proven to have too few hit points and pathetic damage to handle loyalists' superior army in general 20170708 18:48:38< wesnoth-discord-> knalgans can abuse footpad+berserker+fighter vs undead, which the later one lack good answers to their relatively cheap thus superior numbers, but also good damage 20170708 18:51:01< Soliton> excellent then you can just point to the discussions where all this was detailed and the suggested changes explained. i'm sure someone will get around to implement these soon then. 20170708 18:52:28< wesnoth-discord-> okay, thank you 20170708 18:55:05< wesnoth-discord-> huh I actually played against flameheart once 20170708 18:55:12< wesnoth-discord-> did we? 20170708 18:55:17< wesnoth-discord-> what was your ID... 20170708 18:55:41< wesnoth-discord-> same, Rhike; you told me about ladders 20170708 18:56:05< wesnoth-discord-> and you were in a replay highlight on the ladder page when I looked 20170708 18:56:32< wesnoth-discord-> really 20170708 18:57:12< wesnoth-discord-> wow, but I didnt play this game for years 20170708 18:57:24< wesnoth-discord-> last time I touch this game and play ladder, I think it was like 20170708 18:57:30< wesnoth-discord-> 2014 maybe 20170708 18:57:42< wesnoth-discord-> my ID was nelson, btw 20170708 18:58:00< wesnoth-discord-> No I definitely had a guy called Flameheart and fought him in late 2016-early 2017 20170708 18:58:03< wesnoth-discord-> Same names then 20170708 18:58:07< wesnoth-discord-> Someone's an impostor 20170708 18:58:22< wesnoth-discord-> once again, he was in a ladder highlight 20170708 18:58:23< wesnoth-discord-> I am afraid I did not even touch wesnoth in 2016-2017 20170708 18:58:28< wesnoth-discord-> lol 20170708 18:59:02< wesnoth-discord-> I only heard the game is to be on steam last autumn, so I thought I should go back after it is out 20170708 18:59:39< wesnoth-discord-> but I waited a year, it did not come out, so I still havent touched it yet 20170708 19:00:10< wesnoth-discord-> @Rhike Maybe you're think of Flameslash? 20170708 19:00:55< wesnoth-discord-> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/333321564252536835/unknown.png 20170708 19:00:57< wesnoth-discord-> LOOOL 20170708 19:01:08< wesnoth-discord-> bonobo da noob now came to No.1 already? 20170708 19:01:10< wesnoth-discord-> wow 20170708 19:01:14< wesnoth-discord-> how time changes 20170708 19:01:17< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ˜„ 20170708 19:01:18< wesnoth-discord-> Nope 20170708 19:01:39< wesnoth-discord-> he must have improved a lot in past three years 20170708 19:01:55< wesnoth-discord-> 3 years is enough for anything 20170708 19:01:58< wesnoth-discord-> Also keep in mind that only usernames registered on the forums are reserved. Otherwise, anyone can log in as any unregistered username. 20170708 19:02:01< wesnoth-discord-> indeed 20170708 19:02:05< wesnoth-discord-> Or he just used op matchups 20170708 19:02:15< wesnoth-discord-> is cackfiend still active those days? 20170708 19:02:21< wesnoth-discord-> how about hodor? 20170708 19:02:29< wesnoth-discord-> leo? 20170708 19:03:35< wesnoth-discord-> only 4 players on ladder I can tell....and they used to be mids and noobs 20170708 19:03:56< wesnoth-discord-> But it is glad to see this game is still alive 20170708 19:04:03< wesnoth-discord-> That is a huge relief 20170708 19:04:41< wesnoth-discord-> Look at tf2 20170708 19:04:46< wesnoth-discord-> Same thing 20170708 19:04:56< wesnoth-discord-> tf2 is? 20170708 19:05:11< wesnoth-discord-> TF2, WoW and Wesnoth are imo the most steadfast games I've seen ever 20170708 19:05:15< wesnoth-discord-> Team Fortress 2 20170708 19:05:22< wesnoth-discord-> Okay 20170708 19:05:22< wesnoth-discord-> Valve game, 2007 20170708 19:05:36< wesnoth-discord-> In top #5 most played still in 2017 on Steam 20170708 19:05:51< wesnoth-discord-> so many good players are gone 20170708 19:05:55< wesnoth-discord-> I hope they come back 20170708 19:06:06< wesnoth-discord-> No. They will come back. 20170708 19:06:45< wesnoth-discord-> This game is full of charisma, they will eventually feel nostalgic for it 20170708 19:07:11< wesnoth-discord-> Though if we're talking about first impressions of 1.12 vs 1.14, the 1.14 UI changed a fair amount as well. 20170708 19:07:27< wesnoth-discord-> it is on 1.14 already? 20170708 19:07:43< wesnoth-discord-> Did you guys manage to fix the auto update in the last couple years.... 20170708 19:07:57< celmin> There won't really be any major changes between latest 1.13 and 1.14, probably. 20170708 19:08:03< celmin> Except maybe the help browser. 20170708 19:08:13< wesnoth-discord-> no, still 1.12. Part of the question at the moment is what's needed to get 1.14 ready for Steam. 20170708 19:08:16< celmin> This of course assuming that it doesn't get pushed off like vultraz is considering. 20170708 19:08:25< wesnoth-discord-> can the game auto update now? 20170708 19:08:45< celmin> No, but if you had it on Steam you'd get auto-update, I guess. 20170708 19:08:59< wesnoth-discord-> I have always found the game a bit inconvenient for have to delete and reinstall each every small update version 20170708 19:09:09< celmin> I suppose Linux users also get auto-update with their package managers. 20170708 19:09:22< wesnoth-discord-> if the steam release will fix the auto update I think it will be an impressive breach 20170708 19:09:34< celmin> If it was on the Mac store or the Windows store I suppose that would also give auto-update. 20170708 19:09:41< celmin> (There is a Windows store, right?) 20170708 19:09:41< wesnoth-discord-> cool 20170708 19:09:51< wesnoth-discord-> For Windows 10 there is 20170708 19:10:14< celmin> But no-one has done anything for auto-update within the game itself, so anyone downloading from the website won't get auto-update. 20170708 19:10:20< wesnoth-discord-> is inferno8 still sticking around those days? 20170708 19:10:50< wesnoth-discord-> I always like his campaigns and chat a lot with him back then 20170708 19:11:19< wesnoth-discord-> Do the xdeltas count? 20170708 19:11:44< wesnoth-discord-> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31332 20170708 19:11:56< wesnoth-discord-> yes, there was TLU 2.0 recently 20170708 19:12:12< wesnoth-discord-> TLU? 20170708 19:12:17< wesnoth-discord-> never actually know these rocket science 20170708 19:12:21< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ˜… 20170708 19:12:27< wesnoth-discord-> only a player 20170708 19:12:36< wesnoth-discord-> oh, to lands unknown 20170708 19:12:42< wesnoth-discord-> Yes 20170708 19:12:46< wesnoth-discord-> that campaign 20170708 19:12:59< celmin> The xdeltas don't count because you still have to download and apply them manually. 20170708 19:13:01< wesnoth-discord-> I think it is probably best campaign of wesnoth history 20170708 19:13:28< celmin> Also it sounds like they apply to the source, not the binary? 20170708 19:13:49< wesnoth-discord-> unmatched graphics, plots, faction design and everything else 20170708 19:14:01< zookeeper> the phrase you're looking for is "these days", not "those days" 20170708 19:14:25< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah I think the players will come back to the Steam version 20170708 19:14:30< wesnoth-discord-> It's gonna be free right? 20170708 19:14:35< zookeeper> of course 20170708 19:14:55< wesnoth-discord-> I will pay if it is below 60$ 20170708 19:15:06< wesnoth-discord-> During the Steam Greenlight, there were a fair number of comments along the lines of "wow, this is still around?" 20170708 19:15:57< celmin> FTR, I do think getting it on the Mac/Windows app stores is also a good idea. 20170708 19:16:06< celmin> Maybe after the Steam release though. 20170708 19:16:09< wesnoth-discord-> Games never die unless they have really crap 3D graphics 20170708 19:16:23< celmin> Silly. :P 20170708 19:16:33< wesnoth-discord-> There was talk of setting up a Wesnoth Patreon as a way to get Wesnoth a bit more money, though that seems to have stalled out. It'll be $0 on Steam though. 20170708 19:16:34< wesnoth-discord-> Especially if those games have no contesters in the field 20170708 19:16:34< celmin> That probably has very little to do with why games really die. 20170708 19:16:37< wesnoth-discord-> I think wesnoth survived till today because of the active mod community 20170708 19:17:05< wesnoth-discord-> more add-on campaigns should be added into official ones, I suppose 20170708 19:17:15< wesnoth-discord-> ^It's why I'm still around, at least πŸ˜ƒ 20170708 19:17:25< wesnoth-discord-> We need a proper campaign list 20170708 19:17:32< wesnoth-discord-> I couldn't find one 20170708 19:18:01< wesnoth-discord-> The only thing that comes close to a campaign list is the 10 campaigns you'd get from a pack that's included in the Android version 20170708 19:18:07< wesnoth-discord-> many good, great campaigns are lost, during the long years of the game's course 20170708 19:18:21< wesnoth-discord-> the makers of those campaigns left and maintainence halted 20170708 19:18:30< celmin> Lost is a bit of a strong word here. 20170708 19:18:43< wesnoth-discord-> There's addons.wesnoth.org, where you can sort by type. 1.13 also allows filtering by type. Not sure about 1.12. 20170708 19:18:44< wesnoth-discord-> I actually taught kids English and at the end of the lesson I recommended them Wesnoth. All of them abandoned the game after a week. 20170708 19:18:46< celmin> Are they really lost or are they just not playable in latest versions? 20170708 19:19:01< wesnoth-discord-> not playable in latest versions I think 20170708 19:19:16< celmin> Though you could probably download the old versions and still play them, if you really wanted. >_> 20170708 19:19:17< wesnoth-discord-> tracing back to older version's add-on site, on 1.10 and 1.08 20170708 19:19:24< wesnoth-discord-> I think they are still there 20170708 19:19:31< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah but that's a different era 20170708 19:19:56< wesnoth-discord-> but the newer version of the game itself already roots out the reason to play them for 99% of the players 20170708 19:20:39< wesnoth-discord-> Those add-ons might need to be reviewed, and revived, if necessity rises 20170708 19:21:07< wesnoth-discord-> some are really good, and creators of them even paid real dollars to make and perfect them 20170708 19:21:15< wesnoth-discord-> like A New Order 20170708 19:23:25< wesnoth-discord-> If they paid dollas 20170708 19:23:27< wesnoth-discord-> these add-ons are precious community properties. should they be forgotten and buried in tombs of older versions, it will be a real regret 20170708 19:23:30< wesnoth-discord-> They need to update their shit 20170708 19:23:36< wesnoth-discord-> Simple logic 20170708 19:24:05< wesnoth-discord-> logic is simple, time is not. too many years have passed, they cant keep their passion for this game forever 20170708 19:24:53< wesnoth-discord-> most of them left the game and went to deal with real life issues, or other games 20170708 19:24:59< wesnoth-discord-> or simply gave it up 20170708 19:27:55< DeFender1031> Auto-update is not always a good thing... 20170708 19:28:33< wesnoth-discord-> in what case it could be bad, mind if I ask? 20170708 19:28:43< wesnoth-discord-> Outdated mods are the only issue 20170708 19:28:51< wesnoth-discord-> besides rhike I cant find you on ladder... 20170708 19:29:02< wesnoth-discord-> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/333328637908746241/unknown.png 20170708 19:29:26< wesnoth-discord-> I don't know about that 20170708 19:30:59< DeFender1031> Too often I see auto-update programs break things. Not to mention that an auto-update system is an inherent back-door which pretty much can't be closed up if its security gets compromised. 20170708 19:34:13< DeFender1031> Also, outdated and unmaintained mods come with the territory. You can't expect people to remain interested forever. 20170708 19:35:03< DeFender1031> Especially when there are a lot of changes between versions which break older mods and require significant work to bring back into working order. 20170708 19:35:45< DeFender1031> One of the biggest complaints about wesnoth is that new versions were making it annoying for add-on creators by breaking things. 20170708 19:36:33< DeFender1031> My own campaign is currently kinda stalled because, for one thing, I started it on 1.12 and then got frustrated by all the issues it has with 1.13. 20170708 19:38:07< DeFender1031> A lot of it I don't actually think are things that shouldn't have been done, for example, a bunch of terrain graphics have been updated and now some of my custom terrains and animations no longer line up or fit in. But it IS a lot of work to update. 20170708 19:39:16< DeFender1031> (I do think it would have been nice in terms of images which were actually moved from one place to another if there had been some kind of deprecated image path map which points the old to the new and warns the dev to update it, but whatever...) 20170708 19:40:46< zookeeper> that's what wmlscope was (supposed to be) for 20170708 19:41:36< zookeeper> but as with everything like that, it eventually fell out of use 20170708 19:44:23< wesnoth-discord-> I think the updates of game itself causing the mods to have to update along with it is a big problem 20170708 19:44:46< wesnoth-discord-> but there must be some technical limits that prevent this question from being solved, I guess? 20170708 19:45:02< wesnoth-discord-> Otherwise this issue should have been long settled 20170708 19:45:46< wesnoth-discord-> Yes. The game itself needs to move forward. It's just not possible to have 100% perfect backwards compatibility. 20170708 19:45:57< DeFender1031> @Flameheart in some ways I agree, in some not. There are certain kinds of changes which really could remain backwards compatible, but for some reason don't, but then there are others such as the example I said about the graphics where sticking to "everything that exists will always continue to work" will kind of prevent any graphics from ever being updated ever. 20170708 19:47:25< wesnoth-discord-> does the community have any "retrospective" kind of projects that reviews, keeps, or even updates older mods when the creators have left, if the mod itself is seen great enough to worth the efforts? 20170708 19:47:27< celmin> I thought wmllint often warned about moved images? 20170708 19:47:50< DeFender1031> It would also be possible to, for example, create new terrain codes for newer graphics rather than updating the old ones, or keeping all the old graphics around and having some define for which graphics version a given add-on is using, or any number of other potential workarounds which would have the net result of adding tons more crufty bloat above what there already is. 20170708 19:48:38< DeFender1031> @Flamehear, feel free to join the forum and start up a sub-community whose goal is to revive and maintain abandoned add-ons. 20170708 19:48:44< zookeeper> @jyrkive, while i don't disagree that wesnoth could always remain backwards-compatible, it's worth noting that most of the time we don't really even try. some projects really do keep backwards-compatibility forever, for example open-sourced game engines that need to be able to work with the original game data. 20170708 19:48:52< DeFender1031> @Flameheart * 20170708 19:49:55< zookeeper> err... s/could/can't 20170708 19:50:15< wesnoth-discord-> Thats a regret, those mod eras, campaigns, could have even made this game greater if they are kept up to date 20170708 19:50:23< DeFender1031> zookeeper, the problem is, any solutions which would keep perfect or even near-perfect backwards compatibility would add tons of bloat, as I said. (And I say this as a content creator who is currently very frustrated by the lack of backwards compatibility). 20170708 19:50:29< wesnoth-discord-> it's up to you flameheart 20170708 19:50:37< wesnoth-discord-> do you guys have any technical staff to spare for reviving some of those mods in particular? 20170708 19:50:38< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: Yes, I have heard about that. But I'll try to avoid taking sides here because my account is marked as a Wesnoth developer, and my words may have more weight than I want. "OMG the Wesnoth development team admits that backwards compatibility needs to improve!!!" 20170708 19:50:45< DeFender1031> @Flameheart, so go try to organize a sub-community to maintain them. 20170708 19:51:10< DeFender1031> @Flameheart, there's no technical staff to spare for even getting 1.14 out in a reasonable time frame, so no. 20170708 19:51:36< DeFender1031> @Flameheart, any such revival+maintenence project would have to be solely community-based. 20170708 19:52:45< wesnoth-discord-> I am only a player, and I dont know much about the computer science inside. I am just thinking the backward compatibility is somewhat beneficial for the survival of the game as well as improving richness of its content 20170708 19:52:54< wesnoth-discord-> with relatively, less input of efforts 20170708 19:53:08< wesnoth-discord-> updating something is after all easier than making things new 20170708 19:53:12< wesnoth-discord-> There is a thread about reviving old eras/factions in the forums which is quite new. Of course there is one for campaigns as well, but the lastest post there is a little older, iirc. 20170708 19:53:30< wesnoth-discord-> it seems that I finally have to register an acc for the forum 20170708 19:53:33< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ˜… 20170708 19:53:40< wesnoth-discord-> k thanks for the advice guys 20170708 19:53:44< wesnoth-discord-> I will look it on forum 20170708 19:53:58< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ‘Œ 20170708 19:54:29< DeFender1031> @Flameheart, good luck. I hope you succeed in pulling it together. 20170708 19:55:16< wesnoth-discord-> Factions/Eras: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=46372 Campaigns: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17171 20170708 19:56:21< DeFender1031> @jyrkive, well, part of the problem is that the issue of backwards-compatibility seems to be a somewhat charged one even among the devs (as it is in nearly every sphere which involves software development). 20170708 19:57:08< DeFender1031> There's always the dilemma between not being held back by outdated ideas and not breaking stuff still relying on those ideas. 20170708 19:57:52< wesnoth-discord-> Myself, I don't really touch the areas that affect BW compatibility at all. I'm mainly working on the engine and GUI. (I sometimes break BW compatibility, but it's just bugs, not anything intentional.) 20170708 19:58:06< wesnoth-discord-> And for that reason, I don't really even have an opinion about the issue. 20170708 19:58:15< DeFender1031> That's fair too. 20170708 20:00:43< DeFender1031> I tend to take the approach of "as much as possible, try to provide full backwards compatibility for at least one major release version back". If that means including two versions of graphics code, having a path lookup map, and having some less-intelligent APIs still accessible alongside the more intelligent ones, so be it. 20170708 20:01:09< DeFender1031> But I'm also a fan of having deprecation messages for anyone using those things when in development mode. 20170708 20:01:45< DeFender1031> Essentailly "you've got a grace period here, and we'll tell you exactly what you need to update, but it won't keep working forever." 20170708 20:03:36< DeFender1031> Occasionally, that's not possible, such as if some fundamental underlying structure changes, but usually there's a way to work things out so that they at least mostly work the same way. 20170708 20:04:03-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170708 20:40:44-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 20:40:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 20:45:11-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 21:09:11-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170708 21:29:48< janebot> wesnoth: Basic map editor questions (by /u/Monjiji) https://redd.it/6m3li0 20170708 21:33:01< zookeeper> (he has to create a "new scenario" from the file menu first) 20170708 21:33:11< celmin> Yup. 20170708 21:37:34< DeFender1031> To be fair, that's hardly intuitive or obvious. 20170708 21:42:44< zookeeper> of course 20170708 21:45:55< DeFender1031> And of course, by that I mean that it's really rather unintuitive and obscure. 20170708 22:05:27-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170708 22:08:39< wesnoth-discord-> it has to be that way to differ simple .map files from the .cfgs, right? 20170708 22:12:14< DeFender1031> Not necessarily. 20170708 22:12:46< DeFender1031> There needs to be something which determines that distinction, of course, but I can think of several interfaces which would be more intuitive than that. 20170708 22:13:28< celmin> Well, feel free to describe some alternatives somewhere where they won't be forgotten (eg, on a github issue). 20170708 22:13:37< celmin> (Or in a forum thread.) 20170708 22:15:04< DeFender1031> Including: (1) saving as a cfg if anything cfg-like (units etc.) is present or as a map otherwise (2) asking you to select which one you want on startup or when you create a new map (3) warning you that you're switching modes the first time you click to use one ofthose tools and asking if that's okay 20170708 22:15:46< celmin> 2 and 3 both sound like a good idea. 20170708 22:15:51< DeFender1031> (4) asking whether to save as a map or cfg if there are no cfg elements present, and automatically saving as a cfg if there are 20170708 22:16:03< celmin> 1 seems like second-guessing the designer too much. 20170708 22:16:13< celmin> As does 4. 20170708 22:16:18< DeFender1031> second-guessing the designer how? 20170708 22:16:28< DeFender1031> it's automatically adapting to the designer. 20170708 22:16:47< DeFender1031> (That said, I tend to lean toward 2 or 3 too.) 20170708 22:17:41< DeFender1031> But my main point is that while a distinction needs to be made somehow, there is no connection between the need for a distinction and the current unintuitive interface. 20170708 22:22:33< DeFender1031> celmin, what did you mean by "second-guessing the designer"? 20170708 22:24:12< celmin> Silently converting it to or from a basic map just based on whether there's any scenario-specific elements on it just seems like a bad idea which could lead to confusion. 20170708 22:24:40< celmin> If it's only being used as a plain map for multiplayer, it's not a problem, but if you're including it in a campaign or other scenario... 20170708 22:26:15< DeFender1031> Right. 20170708 22:28:22< DeFender1031> Oh, (5) have all tools available when editing and select mode only upon saving (with a warning if there is data present that would not get included when saving as a map). (6) Have a toggle on the controls themselves for which mode, along with a warning when using scenario-only tools that it will automatically force a mode-switch, and a warning when switching to map mode if there's data that will be deleted. 20170708 22:29:04< celmin> Those both sound good too. 20170708 22:29:25< DeFender1031> (7) basing the save format on the file extension for existing files, along with #5 for new files 20170708 22:29:29< celmin> Being able to trivially convert between the modes certainly would be good. AFAIK that's not actually possible currently? 20170708 22:29:48< celmin> (I guess that's referencing #6.) 20170708 22:30:03< DeFender1031> isn't it? pretty sure that currently when you switch modes that's what it does, just the controls for doing so are not readily obvious. 20170708 22:30:17< celmin> IIRC you can't switch modes. 20170708 22:30:25< celmin> You either create it as a map or as a scenario. 20170708 22:31:25< DeFender1031> :/ 20170708 22:31:27< DeFender1031> that's silly 20170708 22:31:32< celmin> Indeed. 20170708 22:31:35< DeFender1031> it should be very simple to switch modes. 20170708 22:32:18< DeFender1031> map->cfg take the map as it exists, continue to work with it alongside the cfg stuff. cfg->map take the map out of the cfg and only keep the actual map bits. 20170708 22:34:12< DeFender1031> hmm... you can do "save scenario as" or "save map as" from either mode. 20170708 22:34:20< celmin> Oh. 20170708 22:34:26< celmin> And that works? 20170708 22:35:18< DeFender1031> it doesn't actually switch modes when you do that... 20170708 22:35:44< DeFender1031> and in fact, it doesn't actually save the map as a cfg 20170708 22:35:50< DeFender1031> that's very odd. 20170708 22:35:58< DeFender1031> this is in 1.12 anyway. 20170708 22:36:23< DeFender1031> but yeah, i did "save scenario as" and it saved the map, with map code, as a .cfg 20170708 22:36:40< DeFender1031> it seems the only distinction between the two options is the default file extension... 20170708 22:36:44< DeFender1031> and not the actual format. 20170708 22:36:46< celmin> No. 20170708 22:36:53< celmin> The scenario format is WML. 20170708 22:36:59< DeFender1031> I know. 20170708 22:37:10< DeFender1031> That's what I'm saying. 20170708 22:37:13< celmin> If it's just a map, the difference should be that the scenario format begins with map_data=" and ends with " 20170708 22:37:37< DeFender1031> oh, wait, it does. 20170708 22:37:40< DeFender1031> fine. 20170708 22:38:01< DeFender1031> but when loading it, it doesn't load it with the scenario editing tools on 20170708 22:38:10< celmin> Eh? 20170708 22:38:14 * celmin confused here. 20170708 22:39:23< DeFender1031> create a map in map mode. I "Save Scenario as". I close the map. I open the cfg I just saved. I still can't use the unit editor and such. 20170708 22:39:40< celmin> …okay, so if the bottom left is (0,0), then the top left is... 20170708 22:39:45< celmin> (0,1)? 20170708 22:40:02< DeFender1031> what? 20170708 22:40:27< celmin> …that probably should've been in the other channel. 20170708 22:40:30< DeFender1031> ah 20170708 22:40:38< DeFender1031> right, the rotation thing. 20170708 22:41:19< DeFender1031> anyway, my point about the editor is that its modes are unintuitive and have some strange behaviors. 20170708 22:44:35< celmin> Yeah. 20170708 23:19:45-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20170708 23:20:40-!- bumbadadabum [~bumbadada@wesnoth/developer/bumbadadabum] has joined #wesnoth 20170708 23:23:31-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170708 23:37:45-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170708 23:42:27-!- Kranix [~magnus@x1-6-74-44-01-e4-f1-52.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] --- Log closed Sun Jul 09 00:00:31 2017