--- Log opened Sun Jul 16 00:00:40 2017
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20170716 00:29:16< wesnoth-discord-> <大卡> steam release date?
20170716 00:30:04< celticminstrel> Up in the air ATM.
20170716 00:30:24< celticminstrel> If all goes well, maybe in a month or two. If all does not go well, maybe early next year.
20170716 00:30:49< celticminstrel> That's for 1.14, mind you. There's a separate possibility that 1.12 might be put on Steam.
20170716 00:31:02< celticminstrel> At least, there's been some talk of that.
20170716 00:31:22< celticminstrel> Anyway, if that were done it could be done at any time.
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20170716 18:56:30< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: ready for GoT S7, are you?
20170716 18:57:00< zookeeper> nope, won't be watching
20170716 18:57:08< vultraz_iOS> :|
20170716 18:57:29< zookeeper> i don't have a functional subscription anymore and i basically don't care at all, so...
20170716 18:57:56< vultraz_iOS> you don't care! D:
20170716 18:58:09< zookeeper> about GoT, that is, because it's so bad
20170716 18:58:14< zookeeper> as you know
20170716 18:59:18< vultraz_iOS> but this is the season they finally get to Westeros
20170716 19:00:37< zookeeper> i'm not compelled by your reasoning
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20170716 19:07:57< DeFender1031> Wesnoth > Westeros
20170716 19:08:36< vultraz_iOS> Westernoth?
20170716 19:10:22< zookeeper> hey. disparage GoT the tv show, not westeros :p
20170716 19:12:04< DeFender1031> Meh. Gratuitous gore, incest, and rape are not really my thing, written or visual.
20170716 19:13:40< DeFender1031> I also have opinions about how just like too little realism ruins a story, too much realism can also.
20170716 19:14:05< DeFender1031> But I realize that for some reason, lots of people love GoT, and that my opinion is an unpopular one.
20170716 19:17:21< zookeeper> well, it's got production values + spectacle + hype + good acting, so i guess that makes a lot of people like it regardless of everything else
20170716 19:27:01< DeFender1031> As I said, meh.
20170716 19:35:09< zookeeper> it's super rare that i stop watching a show i've once been a huge fan of. i'm not sure if it's ever happened before.
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20170716 19:56:37< Harzilein> they get to wesnoth? :D
20170716 19:56:43< Harzilein> that's a huge spoiler!
20170716 19:57:07< celticminstrel> Everyone's talking about Game of Thrones while I still basically don't know anything about it, huh.
20170716 19:57:33< celticminstrel> Of course, that's mainly because I don't feel any urge to find out more about it.
20170716 19:59:05< aeth> zookeeper: For me, it happened to Battlestar Galactica, and before that (or around that time?) late Stargate SG-1/Atlantis.
20170716 19:59:37< celticminstrel> I still need to finish Stargate Atlantis...
20170716 19:59:38< aeth> The last story arc of Stargate SG-1 was, at least in my opinion at the time, complete trash.
20170716 20:00:02< celticminstrel> IIRC the last episode I saw had them on the Atlantis ship stranded between galaxies or something.
20170716 20:00:10< Harzilein> celticminstrel: if you see the first season, you just about know all what got the critics hyped. if you see the first three seasons, the basic patters that keep the fandom interested (like episode action happens in e8) are well established. everything after that is basically the "i have wasted too much time on this, i should continue so it's not entirely wasted" fallacy :D
20170716 20:00:17< celticminstrel> aeth: By last arc you mean the Ori, right?
20170716 20:00:20< APic> B-)
20170716 20:00:23< aeth> celticminstrel: yes
20170716 20:00:55< celticminstrel> I don't remember clearly enough to state my thoughts on it compared to the rest of the series, but I do remember that I liked it.
20170716 20:00:59< Harzilein> i did not have lots of looks wrt cancellations: the 4400, terminator scc, defiance...
20170716 20:01:17< Harzilein> celticminstrel: above was referring to got
20170716 20:01:21< APic> Wand of Cancellation?
20170716 20:01:26< APic> Oh.
20170716 20:01:27< APic> Ok.
20170716 20:01:30< celticminstrel> Harzilein: I guessed as much.
20170716 20:01:44< Harzilein> s/looks/luck/
20170716 20:02:25< Harzilein> they better not cancel the expanse... also r2 dvds would be nice -.-
20170716 20:02:39< wesnoth-discord-> <Pentarctagon> Atlantis' problem was that the solution to almost every major problem was to nuke it
20170716 20:02:56< celticminstrel> XD I don't remember that...
20170716 20:03:30< zookeeper> Harzilein, i would like to recommend people watch the earlier seasons of GoT, but it's kinda hard to determine a cutoff point in a continuous story. i guess i'd say after season 4 would be the best place to stop, since 4 is still okay despite its problems, and everything after it is complete trash.
20170716 20:04:57< DeFender1031> zookeeper, I did that with NCIS.
20170716 20:05:17< DeFender1031> (Stopped watching after having been a fan)
20170716 20:12:56< DeFender1031> And Enterprise during its original run when it moved to friday not, though that was not due to lack of desire to watch it, (another unpopular opinion, I'm sure,) and I have since finished watching the series.
20170716 20:15:51< celticminstrel> I still want to watch that too.
20170716 20:16:07< celticminstrel> It'll probably not happen until after I finish DS9 and Voyager, though.
20170716 20:16:11< Harzilein> still have to finish ent. i had stopped watching voy at some point and managed to finish it, watching a couple of episodes at a time at a friend's place (while primarily doing computer-y things ;)
20170716 20:16:13< celticminstrel> (And I haven't even started the latter.)
20170716 20:16:55< DeFender1031> Harzilein, I actually just finished a rewatch of the three core treks, which means that I just finished two uninterrupted seasons of VOY. It's SOOOO bad!
20170716 20:17:40< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, Voyager is terrible. Watch it with the intent to make fun of it with someone else who knows it, or else you won't make it through.
20170716 20:18:00< celticminstrel> I've seen some episodes.
20170716 20:18:12< DeFender1031> (And I say this having grown up on it and loving it when my mind was too unsophistocated to appreciate how much it sucked.)
20170716 20:18:21< celticminstrel> I don't think I'd call it terrible from those, though for all I know they could've coincidentally been the best of them.
20170716 20:18:49< DeFender1031> The sad thing is, there are a couple of REALLY REALLY good episodes, but the ratio of good to completely nonsensical makes it impossible.
20170716 20:19:25< celticminstrel> Well, whatever, I'm going to watch it eventually anyway.
20170716 20:21:10< zookeeper> trek is boring!
20170716 20:21:12 * zookeeper ducks for cover
20170716 20:21:50 * celticminstrel shrug.
20170716 20:21:59< zookeeper> actually, i just somehow managed to miss all the ones newer than TNG :p
20170716 20:22:20< celticminstrel> Well, it certainly doesn't hold a candle to, say, Babylon 5.
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20170716 20:25:20< DeFender1031> Some examples of general terribleness: 1. No continuity. They'll find shortcuts to cut 10 years off their journey, then run into the same less-advanced low-warp aliens the next episode. 2. No character development. If they want to have an episode about a character confronting a deep, personal issue, instead of having half a season that shows the character struggling before things coming to a head and them having to confront it, 
20170716 20:25:21< DeFender1031> they'll just open the episode with some commanding officer saying something like "I know you've been having problems lately, but I need you to complete this diagnostic...". 3. Inconsistent morality. For example, they'll be forced to go arount alien territory because "fediration values prohibit them from violating others' space in one episode, then they'll "refuse to be bullied" in the next episode. 4. They explicitly told the 
20170716 20:25:23< DeFender1031> human actors to tone down the acting so that the holograms and aliens will seem more real. If you need to tone down one character to make another more relatable, it's a sure sign that you're not making a good show.
20170716 20:26:37< DeFender1031> 5. No emotional depth. Due to all of the above, you never really get to know the characters, so when they face whatever they face it's just like "okay, yay, explosions."
20170716 20:26:40< celticminstrel> Voyager, or Trek in general?
20170716 20:26:44< DeFender1031> Voyager.
20170716 20:26:51< DeFender1031> Trek in general not so.
20170716 20:27:14< DeFender1031> DS9, wonderful writing, very emotionally invested, lots of good character development, the relationships feel real.
20170716 20:27:28< Harzilein> ds9 is great stuff
20170716 20:28:27< DeFender1031> TNG, (seasons 1 and 2 aside), very thought provoking, real depth to the questions of morality, you feel for the problems they face.
20170716 20:28:42< Harzilein> even the first two ds9 seasons are ok (easy compared to the first two seasons of tng)
20170716 20:29:07< Harzilein> also some real 'critic pleasers' in the first two seasons even
20170716 20:29:14< Harzilein> and it gets a lot better from there
20170716 20:29:21< DeFender1031> Harzilein, absolutely. They're not nearly as good as season 3 and onward where they start to have a cohesive, long-term story, but yes, those are great also.
20170716 20:29:38< APic> 😎
20170716 20:29:58< DeFender1031> DS9 had a nine-part finale because they had so many story threads that they needed to wrap up cleanly (and did).
20170716 20:30:50< celticminstrel> I notice you haven't brought up TOS.
20170716 20:31:09< DeFender1031> I also didn't mention ent. they were examples.
20170716 20:31:11< zookeeper> i think star trek has a pretty much perfect concept for a tv show, somehow they just don't seem to manage to make them good enough. maybe because the trek universe with its unimaginative alien races is such a drag.
20170716 20:31:30< DeFender1031> I also... haven't... yet... watched... all... of... umm... humdahum... (trails off).
20170716 20:31:59< celticminstrel> The reboot movies on the other hand are rather disappointing TBH.
20170716 20:32:28< DeFender1031> zookeeper, yeah, trek is usally "these aliens are just like humans except for this ONE social issue that's different that we're going to explore".
20170716 20:33:16< wesnoth-discord-> <pydsigner> I saw a short documentary on GoT back when S1 was going, got really interested in watching it... then found about the content. There's a service that would allow watching it with the gore and such blacked out, but I don't know that it's worth it.
20170716 20:33:25< DeFender1031> That's why I like Babylon 5 better than all Treks. Their aliens each have a unique culture, history, and sensibilities, rather than just being humans with a single modified aspect.
20170716 20:34:08< DeFender1031> celticminstrel, the reboots movies are just action movies in space. They have no moral or emotional depth, but unlike voyager, they aren't pretending to.
20170716 20:34:21< celticminstrel> Yeah.
20170716 20:34:25< celticminstrel> To both of those.
20170716 20:36:02< zookeeper> @pydsigner, yeah, it's not really an option for anyone uncomfortable with constant murder and torture and all that.
20170716 20:37:52< wesnoth-discord-> <pydsigner> zookeeper: I understand the whole "this is basically uncensored medieval history" angle, except that its basically going for all the sensational bits and ignoring that a lot of this was interspersed or private
20170716 20:38:39< zookeeper> DeFender1031, to be fair, the vast majority of B5 races are just human variants too, but the cultures and histories and such are of course more elaborate.
20170716 20:39:23< DeFender1031> zookeeper, do you mean more than just visually?
20170716 20:40:14< DeFender1031> Though actually, even visually, some of the species are also not humanoid.
20170716 20:40:45< DeFender1031> SO I'm not sure I agree.
20170716 20:41:42< zookeeper> @pydsigner, certainly, a lot of the violence is intentionally over the top and gratuitous and doesn't make sense.
20170716 20:41:48< zookeeper> DeFender1031, visually
20170716 20:42:18< DeFender1031> zookeeper, Gaim, Vorlon, Whatever species nagrath is...
20170716 20:42:38< DeFender1031> Shadows...
20170716 20:43:28< zookeeper> of course
20170716 20:43:29< DeFender1031> Most are humanoid, but I'm willing to accept that as a budget constraint and suspend disbelief that far.
20170716 20:44:06< DeFender1031> Especially if we say that there's something inherently darwinian that says that the humanoid form is more likely to evolve intelligence for some reason.
20170716 20:44:52< DeFender1031> The did do a decent job of making them look more visually distinct from humans than just slight forehead differences.
20170716 20:45:03< zookeeper> except centauri :p
20170716 20:45:19< DeFender1031> Drazi are completely gray and scaly, minbari have those tiny ears, narn are reptillianish... etc.
20170716 20:45:55< zookeeper> but sure, it's hard to do compelling non-human alien characters
20170716 20:45:55< DeFender1031> Well, yes, but that is actually mentioned as such for a little bit of humorous backstory.
20170716 20:47:54< DeFender1031> "Then you say Earth is a lost Centauri tribe, making us distant relatives. Until we got some Centauri DNA, and find out we're not related at all. We're completely different species." "A clerical error."
20170716 20:49:04< DeFender1031> zookeeper, Besides, the Centauri only look human from the head up. Farther down they have... you know...
20170716 20:49:09< DeFender1031> ;)
20170716 20:49:21< celticminstrel> Centauri are pretty different too though.
20170716 20:49:50< celticminstrel> Oh, DeFender1031 already mentioned that.
20170716 20:50:04< DeFender1031> :D
20170716 20:50:21< zookeeper> all that stuff doesn't really soil my golden memories of old stuff, but at this point i guess for me "humans but with a different nose/forehead/ears/whatever" is something that must be given an in-universe explanation ASAP or it's essentially a plothole.
20170716 20:51:19< DeFender1031> zookeeper, again, how different does different have to be? The narns are reptillian, is that enough, or are you expecting 5 eyes and tentacles?
20170716 20:52:06< zookeeper> if there are species with 5 eyes and tentacles, then yeah i can live with a reptilian human species or two
20170716 20:52:12< DeFender1031> zookeeper, also, in trek, they DID give an in-universe explanation. It was a pretty farfetched one, but they did.
20170716 20:52:15< celticminstrel> Star Control 2
20170716 20:52:30< DeFender1031> (TNG: The Chase, for reference.)
20170716 20:52:57< celticminstrel> You have giant centipedes, intelligent rhinos, one-eyed clam-like creatures, sentient mushrooms, blob-creatures...
20170716 20:53:09< celticminstrel> Sentient plants, pigmen...
20170716 20:53:36< celticminstrel> And several more besides.
20170716 20:53:45< DeFender1031> And in B5, it's not explicit, but with all the references to the universe being sentient and exploring itself and G'Kar's epiphany that "we are all one", I'm willing to accept a little deus ex machina in terms of species similarities.
20170716 20:55:34< DeFender1031> Meaning, I think the point is that they're more similar than different.
20170716 20:55:46< celticminstrel> But then you have the Vorlons.
20170716 20:56:12< celticminstrel> ...though that ex-human psion did seem somehow similar to the Vorlons, I guess...
20170716 20:56:36< DeFender1031> ex-human psion?
20170716 20:56:59< celticminstrel> I don't remember his name, but he was experimented on to enhance his powers and went rogue and IIRC turned into energy.
20170716 20:58:40< DeFender1031> oh, right.
20170716 20:58:58< DeFender1031> ironheart.
20170716 20:59:01< zookeeper> DeFender1031, sure, i'll accept the "everyone's actually genetically related in some fashion" explanation. but then it should be a relevant part of the setting/story, not a one-off retcon in episode 123.
20170716 20:59:20< DeFender1031> zookeeper, legit.
20170716 20:59:43< DeFender1031> Then again, trek is not a world-built work.
20170716 21:02:05< DeFender1031> DS9 is the closest, as it tried to sort of retcon its own world building into the established universe as much as possible.
20170716 21:11:11< celticminstrel> And some of that influenced the later seasons of TNG, right?
20170716 21:15:27< DeFender1031> Possibly?
20170716 21:18:01< celticminstrel> Well, the later seasons of TNG bring in Bajorans and Cardassians...
20170716 21:18:32< zookeeper> DeFender1031, but then again, if http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chase_(episode) accurately explains the revelation, i'd still facepalm massively at it because... it's just dumb and corny :>
20170716 21:20:28< DeFender1031> zookeeper, as I said.
20170716 21:21:34< celticminstrel> Yeah, I remember seeing that episode.
20170716 21:23:26< celticminstrel> It seems accurate from what I remember.
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20170716 22:12:45< zookeeper> weirdly quiet day on the forums, only... what, 1 post?
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 17 00:00:41 2017