--- Log opened Sat Aug 05 00:00:06 2017
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20170805 01:30:50< irker538> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesmere:develop 574e18b928c3 / wesmere/sass/mw/_wesnoth.scss: sass/mw: Add new styles for a new language selection template https://github.com/wesnoth/wesmere/commit/574e18b928c38cb36c567bb72a32cdeac4e0be6d
20170805 01:36:42< irker538> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 3acd4b870799 / src/ (gui/widgets/widget_helpers.cpp sound.hpp): Fix warnings about missing function prototypes (#1878) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3acd4b870799ad9bdfef2f95c7ac0edc86a9d04e
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20170805 03:38:30< lanternglow> Greetings.
20170805 03:39:47< lanternglow> I have no idea if there is anyone else here right now or not.
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20170805 04:07:57< celmin> Aww...
20170805 04:19:15< vultraz_iOS> i should be working on something but i feel soooo laazzyyyy
20170805 04:19:21< vultraz_iOS> need motivation
20170805 04:22:10< vultraz_iOS> need to figure out how to wire the new UI inw ith the rpeorotojwjpfwekfk
20170805 04:22:12< vultraz_iOS> reports
20170805 04:22:13< vultraz_iOS> objects
20170805 04:27:17< vultraz_iOS> maybe i need coffee
20170805 04:39:05< shadowm> <shadowm> Are you going to take HttT out of first place on the Campaigns list?
20170805 04:39:29< shadowm> No-one responded earlier so I'm posting this again.
20170805 04:41:22< vultraz_iOS> uh
20170805 04:41:24< vultraz_iOS> why?
20170805 04:43:05< vultraz_iOS> i mean im not opposed to but why do you bring it up
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20170805 04:52:06< vultraz_iOS> shadowm: 
20170805 05:09:41< shadowm> Because the thread in Ideas has been dormant for a while.
20170805 05:10:06< shadowm> And in the meantime another person has fallen victim to the Siege of Elensefar Syndrome.
20170805 05:10:57< shadowm> zookeeper and others agreed that it was a good idea but as usual no-one's going to do the thing unless pressured to do so by a periodic reminder or an issue ticket.
20170805 05:13:59< celmin> It's literally just changing a few numbers. >_>
20170805 05:14:09< shadowm> Exactly!
20170805 05:14:22< celmin> Want me to do it? I'd just need to know what order they should be in.
20170805 05:14:30< shadowm> Although there wasn't a real consensus wrt to which numbers.
20170805 05:14:35< celmin> Maybe AToTB, AOI, TSG, HTTT?
20170805 05:14:36< vultraz_iOS> tbh id prefer chronological order
20170805 05:14:44< celmin> Or AToTB, TSG, HTTT, AOI?
20170805 05:14:48< celmin> Since AOI is kinda banal.
20170805 05:14:50< shadowm> Chronological order doesn't help anyone, vultraz_iOS.
20170805 05:14:59< shadowm> TRoW comes first and it's most decidedly not for newbies.
20170805 05:15:01< celmin> Or AToTB, HTTT, TSG, AOI?
20170805 05:15:13< celmin> It'd be nice to have an option to sort chronologically, though.
20170805 05:15:18< celmin> Obviously not by default.
20170805 05:15:24< shadowm> That'd be great indeed.
20170805 05:16:13< celmin> Each scenario has a known date range, right?
20170805 05:16:23< celmin> In-univers date, obviously.
20170805 05:16:26< celmin> ^+e
20170805 05:16:58< vultraz_iOS> of course
20170805 05:17:02< celmin> Speaking of dates, is there some official Irdya calendar?
20170805 05:17:20< vultraz_iOS> shrug
20170805 05:17:24< shadowm> Nah.
20170805 05:17:26< celmin> Like, month names for example.
20170805 05:17:31< shadowm> Definitely not.
20170805 05:17:44< celmin> I guess we just assume it's a 12-month lunisolar calendar?
20170805 05:18:13< celmin> Do campaigns reference months at all?
20170805 05:18:53< shadowm> It's an excellent question, really, because back in the day someone who I shall not name randomly decided to use my campaign as testing grounds for the possibility of Irdya having two moons.
20170805 05:19:12< shadowm> I don't remember if I excised that bit when I rewrote that campaign.
20170805 05:19:30< shadowm> Huh, I didn't.
20170805 05:20:23< shadowm> TRoW: "Several months pass. Jessene has translated Lich-Lord Caror’s Book of Fire and Darkness. Prince Haldric is busy probing the secrets of the Ruby of Fire."
20170805 05:20:37< shadowm> TSG: "Almost two months."
20170805 05:20:48< shadowm> NR: "Why, it can’t have been more than a few months ago that the orcs attacked our forests and took me prisoner."
20170805 05:20:57< shadowm> Yes, there are a lot of vague allusions to the concept of months in mainline.
20170805 05:21:04< shadowm> Also weeks.
20170805 05:21:08< celmin> So just as a "unit of time", basically.
20170805 05:21:11< celmin> Weeks, huh.
20170805 05:21:28< shadowm> LoW: "Some weeks later, as Kalenz and his companions were working their way southwards from the high peaks of the Heart Mountains into its foothills..."
20170805 05:21:47< shadowm> THoT: "I’ve had nothing to eat but flash-roasted gryphon for the last three weeks."
20170805 05:22:00< shadowm> The concept appears to exist even during the post-Fall epoch.
20170805 05:22:03< celmin> Isn't the concept of the week originally from Genesis? Did other cultures such as the Roman Empire or the Greeks ever have an equivalent concept?
20170805 05:22:28< shadowm> UtBS: "How do we know that Yechnagoth wasn’t the one who rained those rocks down upon our village all those weeks ago?"
20170805 05:22:40< shadowm> (These are just select examples. There are many more if you check with grep.)
20170805 05:22:48< celmin> Well, a week is admittedly easier to quantify than a month.
20170805 05:24:45< shadowm> It seems like some suspect the concept is not entirely be an Abrahamic invention, actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week#Ancient_Near_East
20170805 05:25:35< celmin> Anyway, we wouldn't need anything as precise as months to sort the campaigns. A year and epoch should be sufficient.
20170805 05:26:31< celmin> Or just a year, if everything shares the same epoch. Which I doubt, but just putting that out there.
20170805 05:26:36< shadowm> Although most would disagree with me, I feel it'd actually be very helpful to have a precise calendar to work with.
20170805 05:26:43< celmin> I'd agree there, yeah.
20170805 05:27:10< celmin> I guess we don't have to worry about inverse years, either (the BCE epoch).
20170805 05:27:51< shadowm> Well, we do. TRoW predates the founding of Wesnoth, which is the event that divides the BW and YW epochs.
20170805 05:28:10< shadowm> BW if not used in canon (IIRC) but YW definitely is.
20170805 05:28:26< celmin> ...aww.
20170805 05:28:40< celmin> So basically in that epoch year 1000 comes before year 100?
20170805 05:28:48< shadowm> Yep.
20170805 05:29:06< shadowm> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Timeline_of_Wesnoth#Prehistory_-_20_YW:_The_Founding_of_Wesnoth
20170805 05:30:17< shadowm> (Someone remind me to fix all the wiki.wesnoth.org links in that page to be proper wiki links.)
20170805 05:30:32< celmin> ...
20170805 05:30:40< celmin> Someone didn't understand how to use a wiki? >_>
20170805 05:30:54< shadowm> A lot of people have had issues with that in the past, really.
20170805 05:31:52< shadowm> One theory I have (since the wiki has been around since as far back as 2005) is that back then MediaWiki might not have properly supported #anchor links as local wiki links, but it's admittedly a bit silly.
20170805 05:32:22< celmin> I was wondering, did the wiki use some other software at some point? I thought maybe that was why a lot of page titles don't have spaces, since some wiki software expects CamelCase for articles (and auto-inserts the spaces for you in some contexts, I think).
20170805 05:32:35< shadowm> Plus I'm fairly sure the ones that point to CharacterStorys (sic) are more recent.
20170805 05:32:48< shadowm> Since I don't remember that page existing back when I started contributing in 2007.
20170805 05:33:27< shadowm> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WikiMigration -- This suggests that we did originally use something called Tinywiki.
20170805 05:34:18< shadowm> The page's history also suggests that the migration was completed on July 9 2005.
20170805 05:35:39< shadowm> But yeah, speaking as a campaign author, it's really awkward to deal with times without a calendar.
20170805 05:36:23< vultraz_iOS> man, 2005
20170805 05:36:26< celmin> Should we just do "Gregorian calendar but with different month names"?
20170805 05:36:27< vultraz_iOS> that's ancient history
20170805 05:36:30< celmin> Or something more unique?
20170805 05:36:43< vultraz_iOS> celmin: better than nothing right now
20170805 05:37:02< celmin> Well uh, it's probably better to not do something where we suddenly switch calendar later.
20170805 05:37:29< celmin> And it's not like it's a huge challenge to come up with something unique, probably? Mostly amounts to throwing together a few numbers.
20170805 05:37:36< shadowm> An issue to consider is what happens when you factor in the different civilizations. The elves were in the Great Continent before Haldric's people, so they'd be particularly unlikely to adopt a human-made calendar.
20170805 05:37:52< celmin> Unless you wanted something self-correcting with leap years and leap seconds and all that stuff.
20170805 05:38:07< celmin> So it'd make sense to have more than one calendar, huh...
20170805 05:38:09< shadowm> On the other hand, Haldric's people may be more inclined to adopt the elven calendar. But then there's the dwarves and orcs.
20170805 05:39:14< shadowm> Perhaps the dwarves' calendar is the simplest of all since they spend the majority of their time underground.
20170805 05:39:31< shadowm> Or perhaps they adopted the elven calendar and their own is only used for ceremonial purposes, idk.
20170805 05:39:47< celmin> Were the dwarves originally from the great continent too?
20170805 05:39:59< celmin> So the elves and dwarves are natives, while drakes, humans, and orcs aren't?
20170805 05:40:04< shadowm> Yes.
20170805 05:40:14< celmin> And then there's saurians and nagas too, huh...
20170805 05:40:27< vultraz_iOS> and the KHALIFATE 
20170805 05:40:37< celmin> I still think the khalifate should be native though.
20170805 05:41:49< celmin> I wonder what the etymology of "caliph" is...
20170805 05:42:19< shadowm> If they were native they must've had no contact with the elves in the first place, since a plot point in TRoW is that the elves had no contact with humans before the Crown Prince of Southbay arrived as an explorer.
20170805 05:42:29< celmin> from Arabic khalifa "successor"
20170805 05:42:35< shadowm> (Only about a decade before TRoW begins.)
20170805 05:42:48< celmin> I guess that's why the Khalifate is spelled with a K, then.
20170805 05:43:10< vultraz_iOS> probably just spelled with a K to distinguish it from the real word
20170805 05:43:21 * celmin points at my preceding comment.
20170805 05:43:24< vultraz_iOS> unless the real word IS spelled with a K
20170805 05:43:34< celmin> Orrr to more closely mirror the transcription of the source word.
20170805 05:44:04< celmin> The English word is spelled with a C (it was borrowed via Latin and French).
20170805 05:44:19< celmin> Presumably it was the Latin stage that morphed the K to a C, since Latin didn't have K.
20170805 05:44:38< vultraz_iOS> possibly
20170805 05:46:26< vultraz_iOS> we really should establish more backstory for them
20170805 05:46:52< vultraz_iOS> i wonder if part if the reason we didn't was the sheer backlash from racists about adding them in the first place
20170805 05:47:51< vultraz_iOS> (even in the small wesnoth community you still get a shitton of racism occasionally >_> )
20170805 05:48:40< celmin> They're way out in the desert, a place where elves would probably avoid, so I could totally see them being there for centuries unknown to the elves.
20170805 05:48:53< celmin> Or at least with no contact, maybe they did hear rumours.
20170805 05:49:10< celmin> If there are even travellers that cross the desert, which kinda feels unlikely.
20170805 05:49:50< shadowm> vultraz_iOS: It was a huge part of the reason since they literally managed to drive the two main devs behind the faction away.
20170805 05:50:22< vultraz_iOS> ah
20170805 05:51:15< celmin> Would those two devs mind terribly if someone changed all the unit names to something that can actually be understood by people who don't know any Arabic.
20170805 05:51:21< shadowm> I thought you knew this since you were there when I decided to take a more radical approach at handling discussions of the subject int he forums.
20170805 05:51:35< shadowm> (i.e. my infamous 120% font size orange text post.)
20170805 05:51:39< celmin> (TBH, I don't really mind the name of the faction so much. It's the unit names that really bug me.)
20170805 05:51:51< celmin> (Sure the faction name has unwanted religious overtones, but, well...)
20170805 05:51:51< shadowm> They probably would.
20170805 05:52:12< shadowm> The units did originally have English names back in the EE days IIRC.
20170805 05:52:15< vultraz_iOS> shadowm: i vaguely recalled but nothing about an orange post
20170805 05:52:21< celmin> Oh, really?
20170805 05:52:38< vultraz_iOS> it'sbeen so long
20170805 05:52:51< shadowm> I also remember there being some arguments with Espreon about the matter.
20170805 05:53:08< celmin> Espreon made arguments about the names? For or against using Arabic?
20170805 05:53:19< vultraz_iOS> it doesn't matter if one can't understand the names
20170805 05:53:25< shadowm> For using proper Arabic because he became obsessed with linguistics due to his studies.
20170805 05:53:35< celmin> Ah, so in favour of Arabic...
20170805 05:53:54< shadowm> I remember him making a huge deal of nafta vs. naphta.
20170805 05:53:57< shadowm> Or something like that.
20170805 05:54:00< celmin> I mean, Arabic is cool and everything, but IMO it makes it hard to get into.
20170805 05:54:04< celmin> The nafta is fine TBH.
20170805 05:54:14< vultraz_iOS> NAFTA, eh :P
20170805 05:54:31 * celmin swipes Vultraz.
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20170805 05:55:14< celmin> IMO it's clear what it is from that name - a unit that weaponizes petroleum products, presumably by burning them.
20170805 05:55:27< shadowm> One of the points that were debated in favor of the Arabic names is that otherwise you'd end up with more "Demonym Archer" kind of units.
20170805 05:55:52< celmin> I don't mind having some sort of Arabic feel to them, but it should be clear from the name what the unit is.
20170805 05:55:55< shadowm> But I don't feel like that's a strong argument.
20170805 05:56:03< celmin> This is the case with the nafta. It's not the case with most of the others.
20170805 05:56:19< celmin> (The khalif is probably fine too, but that's only a campaign unit anyway.)
20170805 05:56:35< vultraz_iOS> Oh boo boo. People have to actually learn what a specific unit does
20170805 05:56:40< celmin> (Although something like "emir" might make the intent more clear.)
20170805 05:57:02< shadowm> The theory anyway is that if you actually play the faction, you should be able to remember who's who.
20170805 05:57:14< celmin> From the perspective of someone who doesn't know any Arabic, the unit names seem entirely arbitrary and meaningless.
20170805 05:57:18< shadowm> (I can't confirm that theory because I've never played single or multi-player content featuring them since then.)
20170805 05:57:30< celmin> Sure you can learn who's who, but that requires actually playing them a lot.
20170805 05:57:37< celmin> It's not beginner-friendly at all.
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20170805 05:58:14< shadowm> A middle-ground approach would be to call them "Arabic-word English-word".
20170805 05:58:25< celticminstrel> That could work, yeah.
20170805 05:58:35< vultraz_iOS> Perhaps
20170805 05:59:29< shadowm> (Obviously, the Arabic translation would omit the latter. You know, if we had a fully-working Arabic translation at all. Do we? Wesnoth's RTL support has been mostly broken since forever.)
20170805 05:59:41< celticminstrel> IIRC the Arabic translation is rather incomplete.
20170805 05:59:54< shadowm> (And for the record, RTL support requires more than just rendering *text* right-to-left.)
20170805 06:00:04< celticminstrel> Hakim isn't bad as a name, either, IMO, though I may be a little biased there.
20170805 06:00:44< celticminstrel> It's not great, but it's better than some of the others.
20170805 06:01:01< shadowm> For example, if this was rendered in RTL, the entire thing would have to be mirrored: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/318827821567049737/341486950513115146/Spectacle.G29837.png
20170805 06:01:06< celticminstrel> But what the heck is an arif? Or a khaiyal? Or a rasikh? Or a tineen or jawal?
20170805 06:01:10< shadowm> *this were in Arabic RTL
20170805 06:01:20< shadowm> So icons to the left, text right-aligned.
20170805 06:01:40< shadowm> As far as I know GUI2 has no provisions for this sort of thing yet.
20170805 06:02:01< vultraz_iOS> damn RTL languages
20170805 06:02:09< celticminstrel> I suppose it could be doable with some formula trickery IFF there were a variable to allow the GUI2 formulas to detect whether the current locale prefers RTL.
20170805 06:02:23< shadowm> vultraz_iOS: Damn Western-and-mostly-US-centric Internet. :p
20170805 06:02:35< vultraz_iOS> The US invented the internet
20170805 06:02:44< celticminstrel> Though I'm not entirely certain how Wesnoth is implementing its search boxes ATM, so I could be wrong.
20170805 06:02:52< shadowm> It's your fault our language is now plagued with English loanwords.
20170805 06:03:05< celticminstrel> Spanish?
20170805 06:03:09< shadowm> Chilean Spanish.
20170805 06:03:24< shadowm> (Most of them are corrupted in some way or another.)
20170805 06:03:28< celticminstrel> No doubt.
20170805 06:03:36< shadowm> Japanese also suffers from the same issue.
20170805 06:03:40< celticminstrel> I've noticed.
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20170805 06:04:25< vultraz_iOS> Any language really. Most of them don't have translations for the new tech-centric terms that emerged in the last two decades
20170805 06:04:57< shadowm> Among many others, we forgot we had native Spanish words for "bullying", "agility", "marketing", "fair use".
20170805 06:05:03< shadowm> We *forgot*.
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20170805 06:05:44< celticminstrel> Heh...
20170805 06:06:12< shadowm> We could've done like the French and invented our own perfectly semantically-correct* translation of "byte" but nope, we use "byte".
20170805 06:06:21< shadowm> (* yes i am aware bytes are not always 8 bits)
20170805 06:07:13< celticminstrel> French (at least Parisian French) does have gads of loanwords.
20170805 06:07:26< celticminstrel> Quebecois French has fewer, because they actively try not to for some reason.
20170805 06:07:53< shadowm> "Smartphone".
20170805 06:08:10< shadowm> It's literally two words we already had a translation for.
20170805 06:08:27< shadowm> But nope, the lack of a whitespace in between means we can't translate it for some reason!
20170805 06:08:31< vultraz_iOS> If I start pondering the moral and/or ethical ramifications of an English-centric infrastructure adopted by the entire world and having become a necessary tool in today's interconnected globalized economy coupled with an America-centric tech industry driving it and it's effects on other languages and/or cultures in the process as it accelerates globalization I'll be here for a year
20170805 06:09:29< vultraz_iOS> And get nowhere
20170805 06:09:44< shadowm> Then there's a common Chilean colloquialism that's literally a corruption of an English colloquialism
20170805 06:10:10< shadowm> There was absolutely no need for it to be born.
20170805 06:10:27< shadowm> Although I'm fairly sure that one predates the Internet.
20170805 06:10:45< vultraz_iOS> I'm sure there are some people who argue it's just another form of white/American/English cultural imperialism
20170805 06:10:49< shadowm> "OK" and "sorry" are also commonly heard in our language.
20170805 06:11:04< shadowm> Even though we already had words for both back in 1100.
20170805 06:11:11< shadowm> I mean, the Spanish did.
20170805 06:11:15< shadowm> We didn't because we didn't exist.
20170805 06:11:17< celticminstrel> ...what the heck is type=hybrid.
20170805 06:12:19< vultraz_iOS> But I'm neither qualified to debate such matters and I'm absolutely certain there's no black or white interpretation of it
20170805 06:12:19< vultraz_iOS> So
20170805 06:12:21< vultraz_iOS> Meh
20170805 06:12:45< shadowm> I wouldn't be so bitter about the subject if it wasn't such an obviously one-sided tendency.
20170805 06:13:39< celticminstrel> Hey, we've borrowed ton of Spanish words too.
20170805 06:13:50< shadowm> Ummmmm yeah, like...
20170805 06:13:55< vultraz_iOS> English borrows words from a ton of languages
20170805 06:13:57< shadowm> 'Tacos'.
20170805 06:14:01< shadowm> 'Burrito'.
20170805 06:14:21< vultraz_iOS> Despacito
20170805 06:14:25< vultraz_iOS> XD
20170805 06:14:25< shadowm> No.
20170805 06:14:37< celticminstrel> fiesta, macho, patio, plaza
20170805 06:14:46 * celticminstrel just picked those from the first Google result.
20170805 06:14:48< shadowm> Who the crap says fiesta.
20170805 06:14:56< shadowm> In English, that is.
20170805 06:14:59< vultraz_iOS> I'm making a joke about the current popularity of the Luis Fonsi song
20170805 06:15:00< celticminstrel> Yeah, maybe that one's not so common in English.
20170805 06:15:07< celticminstrel> The other three for sure, though.
20170805 06:15:29< celticminstrel> Apparently alligator is from spanish
20170805 06:15:33< celticminstrel> And albatross.
20170805 06:15:50< vultraz_iOS> And don't forget all the words from French
20170805 06:15:52< celticminstrel> ...
20170805 06:15:58< shadowm> Restaurant.
20170805 06:16:07< celticminstrel> "breeze" is listed here as being maybe from Spanish. I'm dubious on this one.
20170805 06:16:19< celticminstrel> Cafeteria
20170805 06:16:31< celticminstrel> Oh, canoe is from Spanish?
20170805 06:16:38< celticminstrel> Canyon, cannibal, cargo...
20170805 06:16:40< shadowm> It's "canoa" in Spanish so idk.
20170805 06:16:59< shadowm> "Cargo" is "cargamento" ("cargo" is a verb conjugation in Spanish).
20170805 06:17:08< celticminstrel> I wouldn't really count chocolate... that's more from aztec.. via Spanish, sure, but still.
20170805 06:17:27< shadowm> The thing is, all these are older than the Internet.
20170805 06:17:43< celticminstrel> True, true.
20170805 06:17:51< celticminstrel> But there's still a lot of them.
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20170805 14:36:50< JyrkiVesterinen> DeFender1031: You have mentioned that animated cutscenes in a campaign of yours lag badly in 1.13.
20170805 14:37:15< JyrkiVesterinen> Can I download that campaign from somewhere (or can you share it to me privately) so that I can try to optimize it?
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20170805 14:55:14< vultraz_iOS> One of the primary issues he had was with his animated storyscreen effect
20170805 14:55:26< vultraz_iOS> But that's a side effect of the gui2 design
20170805 14:56:04< JyrkiVesterinen> Anyway, as far as I know no one has even tried to optimize it.
20170805 14:56:28< vultraz_iOS> I don't know if it's possible
20170805 14:56:44< JyrkiVesterinen> You don't know until you try. :P
20170805 14:57:12< vultraz_iOS> Hopefully any changes you make are a_r compatible
20170805 15:04:33< JyrkiVesterinen> celmin: Are you reviewing pull request 1879?
20170805 15:04:42< JyrkiVesterinen> If not, I'd like to deal with it.
20170805 15:06:29< celmin> What was it?
20170805 15:07:12< JyrkiVesterinen> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/1879
20170805 15:07:18< JyrkiVesterinen> "Center viewport on zoom"
20170805 15:07:30< celmin> Ah. Go ahead, then.
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20170805 16:35:03< irker670> wesnoth: lundberg wesnoth:master 4a9f64bd53f5 / src/log_windows.cpp: Warning: ignored return value of freopen https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4a9f64bd53f548da27be2625b1f073ac9740493f
20170805 16:35:03< irker670> wesnoth: lundberg wesnoth:master 51fdcd5d9468 / src/serialization/string_utils.cpp: Warning signed vs unsigned char conversion to int https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/51fdcd5d9468bfc52fbc4432424392c15abf2253
20170805 16:35:04< irker670> wesnoth: lundberg wesnoth:master 7b63beea8992 / src/attack_prediction.cpp: Fix warning doing arithmetic on a boolean https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7b63beea8992815fdf1eb296da9a03fde881f739
20170805 16:35:05< irker670> wesnoth: lundberg wesnoth:master c861729ac987 / src/reports.cpp: Fix warning 'u' might be null https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c861729ac987d4a07cb5fa5ffbb4dce6a413b052
20170805 16:35:06< irker670> wesnoth: lundberg wesnoth:master a166348f8465 / src/reports.cpp: TODO implemented https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a166348f846509196888287c3f3b6ebb3d4944aa
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20170805 17:13:40< irker670> wesnoth: DisherProject wesnoth:master 29519406beed / src/display.cpp: Center viewport on zoom https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/29519406beed2190df9ee8b449d24b4f9f4b1c74
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20170805 17:58:48< DeFender1031> I know I'm a bit late on this, but for the record, "rpeorotojwjpfwekfk" is the best type I have ever seen in my life. At first, I thought you were just keysmashing in frustration again.
20170805 17:59:59< DeFender1031> shadowm, in general, it seems that the campaign list is in the order it's intended to be played, except for "the primary campaign" which is first. But the game is so much more than HttT at this point.
20170805 18:00:30< DeFender1031> Also, I think I suggested a while ago that it would be nice to sort the list either by intended playing order or by chronological order.
20170805 18:00:57< DeFender1031> With some special icon being given to mainline campaigns to differentiate themselves from add-ons that want to insert themselves into the timeline.
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20170805 18:01:24< DeFender1031> But that'd obviously be more work than the changing of a few numbers which is reordering HttT.
20170805 18:01:25< shadowm> The problem is the person who ranked the campaigns by order didn't know how to make an intermediate campaign in the first place.
20170805 18:01:41< shadowm> He made the easiest campaign ever instead.
20170805 18:01:44< DeFender1031> shadowm, what do you mean?
20170805 18:01:53< shadowm> I mean exactly what I said.
20170805 18:02:00< shadowm> So I don't fully trust the current order.
20170805 18:02:31< DeFender1031> That doesn't help. I mean, which camaign(s) do you think are out of order in that regard?
20170805 18:02:36< shadowm> That said, the contention point is the order for HttT, AOI, AToTB and TSG in particular, since they are all the only beginner campaigns.
20170805 18:02:45< DeFender1031> I'm not sure of the specifics you're referring to.
20170805 18:02:54< shadowm> Completely regardless of my other point.
20170805 18:02:55< DeFender1031> Or why ranking the order has anything to do with making camopaigns.
20170805 18:03:56< DeFender1031> Given that TSG claims to be aimed at first-time players, it should probably be first.
20170805 18:05:11< shadowm> If a person decides their own campaign is intermediate-level in spite of it being clearly *not*, then their judgment on the matter simply shouldn't be trusted.
20170805 18:05:15< DeFender1031> Oh, the chrono order thing was raised in the conversation...
20170805 18:05:25< DeFender1031> (Sorry, I tend to comment on the backlog as I read it.)
20170805 18:05:27< shadowm> I know who I'm talking about and no, I'm not going to name the name, he's long retired anyway.
20170805 18:05:46< DeFender1031> Oh, that's what you meant. OKay.
20170805 18:06:07< DeFender1031> No, I just wasn't clear what the connection between the two was. I don't need specific names or anything.
20170805 18:07:28< SigurdFD> ok, I'll get the ball rolling and make a pr. Order of TSG, AToTB, AOI, HttT
20170805 18:09:23< shadowm> I still feel AToTB, AOI, TSG, HttT is a better order.
20170805 18:09:40< shadowm> Or possibly AOI, AToTB, TSG, HttT.
20170805 18:10:03< shadowm> TSG is just too long and has one of the most frustrating choices ever to qualify for the first place.
20170805 18:10:44< SigurdFD> I could agree with either of those as well, though with atotb first, it needs dialog about using impact damage in first scenario
20170805 18:10:50< DeFender1031> shadowm, if that's the case than the text claiming that it's aimed at first-time players ought to be removed, and the extra guidance dialogue should be moved to whatever IS put first, no?
20170805 18:11:16< shadowm> Dialogue can be added (I *think* vultraz_iOS hasn't declared a string freeze or believes in the principle in the first place).
20170805 18:11:18< SigurdFD> and the tutorial text sholud be changed if TSG is not first.
20170805 18:12:23< SigurdFD> but that should be changed anyway
20170805 18:12:24< DeFender1031> I don't think a string freeze makes a lot of sense TBH.
20170805 18:12:40< shadowm> As a retired translator I profoundly disagree with that statement.
20170805 18:13:11< shadowm> You devs aren't the people who get to pull all-nighters trying to get their native language's team to 100% before gold. :p
20170805 18:15:01< DeFender1031> Ah, that's legit actually. Didn't think of tht.
20170805 18:15:31< DeFender1031> I guess my anglo privilege is showing...
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20170805 18:16:48< DeFender1031> But yeah, I suppose it'd be super frustrating to get the whole thing translated just in time to have someone dump a crapload of untranslated garbage on you that in many cases differs only slightly from the previous and was 5 seconds of work for the dev who did it, but will likely be hours for the translator.
20170805 18:20:09< DeFender1031> On the topic of time, references to weeks and months don't NECESSARILY mean those concepts have to exist in-universe as such. If you take the Tolkeinian approach where the game is just "translating and localizing" the story from "the original", then you can say that those words are only used for ease of reading by those playing it.
20170805 18:20:20< celmin> Oh, SigurdFD beat me to it, huh.
20170805 18:20:38< DeFender1031> celmin, to what?
20170805 18:21:22< SigurdFD> had you started already?
20170805 18:21:59< celmin> No.
20170805 18:22:07< celmin> I'd started something about the chronological thing.
20170805 18:22:33< SigurdFD> I haven't done anything with the sort by chronological
20170805 18:22:53< SigurdFD> it's just a pr for a better order for the beginner campaigns
20170805 18:22:59< celmin> But you beat me to the reordering.
20170805 18:22:59< DeFender1031> < shadowm> Although most would disagree with me, I feel it'd actually be very helpful to have a precise calendar to work with. <---- I don't disagree at all. There needs to be more lore to work off of. A proper calendar system with names and days would be wonderful.
20170805 18:23:56< SigurdFD> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/1881
20170805 18:24:09< DeFender1031> < shadowm> One theory I have (since the wiki has been around since as far back as 2005) is that back then MediaWiki might not have properly supported #anchor links as local wiki links, but it's admittedly a bit silly. <---- MW definitely did support anchor links.
20170805 18:25:41< shadowm> Before I started contributing to Wesnoth I was a mod on a MediaWiki wiki so I had an advantage in that regard I guess.
20170805 18:25:58< SigurdFD> I also think the sort by chronolgical would be a good thing.
20170805 18:26:18< SigurdFD> celmin: ^
20170805 18:26:37< celmin> Will look a bit later
20170805 18:26:40< DeFender1031> shadowm, I've been contributing to a MW wiki since just around 2005 as well.
20170805 18:37:34< DeFender1031> JyrkiVesterinen, Re. the request for the camaign so you can see the laggy cutscenes: I'll gladly send you a copy, but if you can't make it work, don't bother. I'm aware that I'm a nutjob with absurd ideas about how much action should be in a caimpaign and how much the engine should be abused for the sake of visual effects. I mean, ideally I'd like what I have to work, and I think that eventually the code should be written 
20170805 18:37:36< DeFender1031> well enough to allow it to, but I would be very upset to see the release of 1.14 delayed just because of my wacky ideas. (Heck, my campaign isn't even anywhere close to ready for release anyway.)
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20170805 18:40:07< DeFender1031> (I have said this numerous times.)
20170805 18:40:53< vultraz_iOS> and no zookeeper I'm not connecting the bridge bot to the discord dev channel
20170805 19:33:22< celmin> Why not?
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