--- Log opened Thu Aug 24 00:00:25 2017
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20170824 01:12:03< vultraz_iOS> celticminstrel: could you review 1910 again
20170824 01:12:13< celticminstrel> Maybe
20170824 01:13:42< celticminstrel> vultraz_iOS: Shouldn't you close 1914?
20170824 01:13:54< vultraz_iOS> not until it's merged
20170824 01:13:57< vultraz_iOS> e
20170824 01:13:58< celticminstrel> Oh, right.
20170824 01:13:58< vultraz_iOS> my pr
20170824 01:14:00< vultraz_iOS> is merged
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20170824 01:22:50< irker039> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:some_gui2_refactoring 22b243757274 / src/gui/widgets/listbox.cpp: GUI2/Listbox: used std::less instead of custom comparison function https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/22b243757274350882facfe69e74b1301bf18266
20170824 01:22:51< irker039> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:some_gui2_refactoring 95d398be26b3 / src/gui/widgets/ (generator.hpp generator_private.hpp listbox.cpp listbox.hpp): GUI2: drop t-prefix from order_func typedef https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/95d398be26b31a4e1e95fdf5cbe8b7f689c8ac6e
20170824 01:22:52< irker039> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:some_gui2_refactoring e8037aed5031 / src/gui/widgets/chatbox.cpp: GUI2/Chatbox: clarified a comment https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e8037aed5031adf46a93b8510960097dc057ea64
20170824 01:22:54< irker039> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:some_gui2_refactoring 1434d7261911 / src/gui/widgets/ (listbox.cpp listbox.hpp): GUI2/Listbox: formatting cleanup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1434d7261911ed4e12ad1c37c168cd6af1655305
20170824 01:27:44< vultraz_iOS> i tested the ios pr
20170824 01:45:31< celticminstrel> \o/
20170824 01:45:50< celticminstrel> What'd you do exactly?
20170824 01:52:31< vultraz_iOS> i tested out basic game controls with touch
20170824 01:52:36< vultraz_iOS> still has some hiccups 
20170824 01:53:41< celticminstrel> But basically works?
20170824 01:53:59< vultraz_iOS> ehhhhhhhhhhhh
20170824 01:54:09< vultraz_iOS> generally
20170824 01:54:09< celticminstrel> Better than nothing?
20170824 01:54:31< celticminstrel> Let singalen know of any problems?
20170824 01:54:40< vultraz_iOS> i did
20170824 01:55:02< vultraz_iOS> *on discord* :P
20170824 01:55:14< celticminstrel> I don'y care where you talked to him.
20170824 01:55:57< vultraz_iOS> you miss my point :P
20170824 01:56:18< celticminstrel> Maybe your point isn't relevant then.
20170824 01:56:49< vultraz_iOS> my point is that a lot of stuff happens on discord
20170824 01:57:27< celticminstrel> So not really relevant. I was merely confirming that the communication occurred. How it occurred doesn't even matter. It could've been a phone call for all I care.
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20170824 02:48:53< mattsc> vultraz_iOS: (you’ve probably said this before so you can just point me to the correct time in the log)  what’s the reason/logic behind linking #wesnoth, but not #wesnoth-dev?
20170824 02:49:06< mattsc> Between irc and discord, I mean.  Bridging, or whatever.
20170824 02:49:42< vultraz_iOS> So we don't get duplicate bots
20170824 02:49:51< vultraz_iOS> Reporting commits
20170824 02:50:14< mattsc> ok
20170824 02:51:36< vultraz_iOS> I have discord's native webhook
20170824 02:51:45< vultraz_iOS> Setup to report commits there
20170824 03:00:58< mattsc> Well, I don’t know much about any of this, so I’ll go back to pondering retreat logic  ;)
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20170824 03:41:21< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#14756 (some_gui2_refactoring - 1434d72 : Charles Dang): The build is still failing.
20170824 03:41:21< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/267810769
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20170824 03:52:27< TC01> vultraz_iOS: maybe this is a dumb suggestion, but... couldn't you solve that problem by only having _one_ bot announce commits, and it would wind up in both IRC and discord?
20170824 03:54:19< vultraz_iOS> it could be, but it wouldn't look great
20170824 03:55:37< vultraz_iOS> the discord webhook API does some stuff with the json input so it comes out formatted all nicely
20170824 03:55:48< vultraz_iOS> no idea what it would look like over the bridge
20170824 03:56:09< vultraz_iOS> and irker's output probably wouldn't look great on the other side either
20170824 03:56:12< TC01> personally having it look less nice on one of the sides seems like a small tradeoff for the convenience of bridging both discord and IRC, but I don't know, I just lurk here.
20170824 03:56:31< TC01> (I mean, if you're trying to have development conversations in both places. *shrug*)
20170824 03:59:19< TC01> or alternatively... you could probably persuade the bridging bot to ignore a given user's messages from the IRC side, or something
20170824 03:59:42< vultraz_iOS> I'm trying to get everyone to move primarily to Discord too
20170824 03:59:50< vultraz_iOS> (the development team, that is)
20170824 04:00:04< vultraz_iOS> using the bot here would therefor undermine that effort
20170824 04:06:05< TC01> well... with all due respect, that seems like an unnecessarily hostile way to go about it, and would probably make me less interested in switching over, not more. But I'm not a developer and I've probably said enough here.
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20170824 04:31:04< JyrkiVesterinen> I agree that it would be better to bridge the development channels, even if the commit messages would be uglier in one side.
20170824 04:31:24< JyrkiVesterinen> (The Discord bot is the one I'd retain: I'd retire irker.)
20170824 04:32:15< JyrkiVesterinen> And I also agree that "trying to get everyone to move to Discord" is an unnecessarily hostile approach. Nothing blocks us from using both.
20170824 04:32:31 * JyrkiVesterinen uses both IRC and Discord himself 
20170824 04:33:19< JyrkiVesterinen> https://xkcd.com/1782/
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20170824 05:20:50< aeth> vultraz_iOS: fuck you
20170824 05:21:06< aeth> Wesnoth has been using IRC for years. It's FOSS. It has many clients.
20170824 05:21:18< vultraz_iOS> Well that's friendly.
20170824 05:21:37< aeth> If you force people to Discord, I'll just go ahead and not rewrite Wesnoth's graphics code when I have the time.
20170824 05:21:41< aeth> I'd like to see you rewrite it.
20170824 05:22:05< vultraz_iOS> First off, since when have you done that
20170824 05:22:10< vultraz_iOS> And second, I am.
20170824 05:23:43< vultraz_iOS> Also, for the record, we can debate the merits of IRC vs Discord
20170824 05:24:07< aeth> I'm sick and tired of Discord infesting everything with its shitty see-right-through-it VC-backed business model of playing the good guy for a few years at a loss and then become evil to "monetize", like literally every tech company with a free product that's not FOSS does.
20170824 05:24:21< aeth> I mean, there are literally thousands of companies that have done this.
20170824 05:24:32< vultraz_iOS> But I don't care one bit about whether something is FOSS or not
20170824 05:24:37< aeth> They either go out of business, get acquired, or plaster everything in ads.
20170824 05:24:44< JyrkiVesterinen> At that point we can just leave Discord. I don't see it as a problem.
20170824 05:24:56< aeth> I don't mind paying for software, but when it's $0, you know it's going to turn into shit over time when it has enough users under the reasoning "monetization".
20170824 05:25:03< JyrkiVesterinen> (And leaving Discord is easier if IRC is retained in the meantime.)
20170824 05:25:40< aeth> (1) Get all the users, (2) Screw over all the users with monetization or sell out to a big company or shut down. Literally every consumer-facing tech company with a $0 non-FOSS product.
20170824 05:25:51< aeth> Even plenty with a paid product.
20170824 05:25:55< vultraz_iOS> I never said I was shutting down the IRC channels
20170824 05:26:20< vultraz_iOS> And stop acting like FOSS is some sort of consumer utopia
20170824 05:26:32< aeth> Consistently 5/10 is better than actively user hostile.
20170824 05:26:47< aeth> Even Windows is actively user hostile now, and that's not a free product.
20170824 05:27:23< vultraz_iOS> what?
20170824 05:27:43< aeth> Windows has telemetry and ads, just like a $0 product, even though you pay for it, whether up front or with your hardware purchase.
20170824 05:27:57< vultraz_iOS> are you drunk right now?
20170824 05:28:35< vultraz_iOS> Half of what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever
20170824 05:28:53< aeth> It's 1 am, I'm tired, that might be why.
20170824 05:29:00< aeth> I never drink.
20170824 05:30:11< aeth> But I'm sick of people defending poorly engineered (it uses Electron, enough said) software that's run at a loss via VC funding just so it can screw over people later with monetization.
20170824 05:30:50< aeth> It's a shitty business model that should just die. I'd rather pay $5 or $20 than have to deal with a product that gets worse and worse over time.
20170824 05:31:01< vultraz_iOS> you say that as if I should run fleeing in terror as the mention of "Electron" 
20170824 05:31:23< aeth> The charge in your battery runs fleeing in terror with the mention of Electron.
20170824 05:32:00< aeth> Especially once everyone does it and you run 6 of those apps.
20170824 05:32:52< JyrkiVesterinen> I can't confirm that. Discord uses about 0,3 % of my CPU at idle.
20170824 05:33:10< aeth> What's more relevant is RAM and battery usage.
20170824 05:33:11< JyrkiVesterinen> Nowhere near enough to affect power usage by a noticeable amount.
20170824 05:33:34< vultraz_iOS> look, all I care about is that Discord makes everything easier to manage, especially as a server admin. Everything in a nice UI (including settings. None of these archaic and confusing commands). I have a list of channels, everyone belongs to the server and has access to all channels unless restricted. I can easily move people in and out of groups. Avatars make people more easily identifiable. There's great-quality voice chat
20170824 05:33:34< vultraz_iOS> (albeit we don't use it).
20170824 05:33:51< aeth> JyrkiVesterinen: Measured CPU percent does not directly correlate with battery drain. Modern electronics are very complex.
20170824 05:33:52< JyrkiVesterinen> RAM usage is relevant only if you're utilizing enough that the OS needs to move things out of system cache.
20170824 05:33:57< aeth> And the measurement is inexact.
20170824 05:34:07< vultraz_iOS> There are built in logs, I can easily set up channels without "registering" them or configuring them
20170824 05:34:16< vultraz_iOS> all the language channels are in one place
20170824 05:35:12< aeth> Most of the work of voice chat is done by the libopus people.
20170824 05:35:30< vultraz_iOS> then kudos to them
20170824 05:35:37< aeth> You can have whatever UI you want on top of IRC, you are forced into a single UI with something like Discord because you can't use a third party client.
20170824 05:35:39< JyrkiVesterinen> The important point for Vultraz is that IRC doesn't have voice chat support.
20170824 05:35:56< aeth> (I'm assuming Discord uses libopus, it's currently the best codec for both voice and audio, which itself is an engineering marvel.)
20170824 05:36:07< aeth> (And with a BSD license they have no reason not to use it.)
20170824 05:36:09< vultraz_iOS> aeth: having everyone on one client allows most of these features
20170824 05:36:34< aeth> That's just plainly false.
20170824 05:37:13< aeth> You can have a rich graphical experience with multiple clients. Look at e.g. web browsers themselves.
20170824 05:37:54< vultraz_iOS> I have yet to find many IRC clients with great UI experiences
20170824 05:38:00< aeth> But you don't even need to go that far to have a consistent experience. What prevents IRC from doing that is that many of us (including me) use in-terminal clients, and there's no push for too many modern graphical features.
20170824 05:38:09< vultraz_iOS> that's a problem
20170824 05:38:57< JyrkiVesterinen> For the record, in the IRC client I use I like that I can use custom colors.
20170824 05:38:58< aeth> I persist my IRC client on a raspberry pi and ssh into it from my laptop, my desktop, my tablet, and my smartphone all seamlessly (i.e. you don't notice which one I'm on)
20170824 05:39:13< JyrkiVesterinen> I'm using white on black: it's the color scheme I like by far the most.
20170824 05:39:18< JyrkiVesterinen> Contrast to the max!
20170824 05:39:21< vultraz_iOS> and you'd need to do none of them if you were on discord
20170824 05:39:28< vultraz_iOS> that*
20170824 05:39:52< aeth> But I don't want a God server that monitors everything and knows everything, and I don't want to lose access to cloud logs if I lose access to my account for some reason.
20170824 05:40:04< vultraz_iOS> fine
20170824 05:40:15< vultraz_iOS> but another reason I'm pushing for discord is it's more user-friendly
20170824 05:40:19< aeth> I want a local server, with local logs that are backed up regularly, and that date back more than a decade.
20170824 05:40:44< aeth> vultraz_iOS: But it's only user friendly when it's in the growth phase. When $0 software moves to the monetization phase, it step by step removes that.
20170824 05:40:51< vultraz_iOS> no one wants to figure out what the hell IRC is and all the stuff about clients and networks and channels
20170824 05:41:03< vultraz_iOS> you say there's not much push for UI improvements?
20170824 05:41:05< JyrkiVesterinen> Basic use of IRC isn't hard IMO.
20170824 05:41:09< vultraz_iOS> that's the damn problem
20170824 05:41:24< aeth> Most importantly, I don't want to have to use ad-ridden software. Advertisements are an attack on rationality, which I have spent my adult life building up.
20170824 05:41:59< aeth> $0 software that's not FOSS and/or not run by a non-profit inevitably adds ads, even if it doesn't start with ads. Especially if it doesn't. Google didn't used to have ads and now they're the world's largest ad company.
20170824 05:42:11< aeth> s/used to/use to/
20170824 05:42:33< aeth> They say they're different. They say they know some unique hack that'll be better than ads. And yet, if it's $0 and consumer-facing, they'll add ads.
20170824 05:42:42< aeth> Inevitable.
20170824 05:42:46< JyrkiVesterinen> To be fair, Google still has much less ads than its competitors had back in the day.
20170824 05:44:32< vultraz_iOS> the FOSS community never adopted what Apple did 20 years ago: focus on simple user design. Sure, most linux users are more technically-minded, but the average user? The average user - or in this case, player - doesn't care if you can do something via terminal or what to go search for the perfect IRC client. They just want to place to hang out
20170824 05:44:36< aeth> JyrkiVesterinen: Google the search engine website's ads aren't that bad (they're worse than they were 10 years ago, though, and they'll continue to get worse as the returns lower, because that's how ads work), but Google the ad company serves plenty of nasty ads to other places, including other Google properties.
20170824 05:45:15< aeth> YouTube's ads are getting pretty bad, for instance, or so I'm told. uBlock Origin blocks YouTube video ads just fine.
20170824 05:45:51< vultraz_iOS> IRC is clunky
20170824 05:45:56< vultraz_iOS> and antiquated
20170824 05:46:49< aeth> I'll just paraphrase what I said earlier today in another Discord argument... Software doesn't get antiquated, with few exceptions like with gamedev, where games naturally take advantage of new hardware. Usually, new software just reinvents the same thing over and over again, but slower and more bloated.
20170824 05:47:13< JyrkiVesterinen> Vultraz, you generalize too much. There are some FOSS projects which throw user-friendliness out the window, sure, but not the entire FOSS community does that. Hack, you and me are a prt of that community!
20170824 05:47:14< aeth> And, hell, even with games, the games that I come back to are quite old at this point. The new ones are shiny but I bore of them quickly.
20170824 05:47:34< JyrkiVesterinen> And there are plenty of user-friendly FOSS projects.
20170824 05:47:53< vultraz_iOS> JyrkiVesterinen: eh, true. Maybe I associate FOSS too much with weirdos like RMS 
20170824 05:48:27< aeth> We're getting to the point where text, one of the few things that computers do well, can be very slow on some of the most powerful consumer CPUs available thanks to bad clientside JavaScript.
20170824 05:48:28< vultraz_iOS> and trolls coming knocking bitching about MUH FREE SOFTWARE 
20170824 05:50:03< vultraz_iOS> and I rather dislike the fact that FOSS projects like GIMP and CodeBlocks apparently never saw a decent UI that existed past 2005
20170824 05:50:07< aeth> vultraz_iOS: All software is bad. That's why I program. I hate just about all of it. But at least FOSS stays consistent, and maybe even improves over time. $0 software gets worse thanks to monetization pressure by the VC backers.
20170824 05:50:14< vultraz_iOS> their UIs are absolute garbage
20170824 05:50:38< aeth> My argument is a lot different than RMS's stupid rationalizations to justify him being mad at proprietary software killing his dream job.
20170824 05:50:58< vultraz_iOS> even when the software is generally - like N++ which i did like using - the antiquated and bloated UI seems so bad in comparison to VSCode
20170824 05:51:42< vultraz_iOS> GIMP can't even function at 4k!
20170824 05:51:43< aeth> vultraz_iOS: FOSS UIs tend to be designed with professionals in mind. High learning curve, but once you learn them, they're extremely efficient. Commercial software tends to assume the user knows absolutely nothing, with no learning curve, but not really rewarding those who put the time in to use and learn the software over the course of many years.
20170824 05:51:59< aeth> Compare emacs or vim to some IDE that's full of wizards.
20170824 05:52:26< vultraz_iOS> I have yet to find a nice IDE
20170824 05:52:42< aeth> vultraz_iOS: GIMP sucks, use Blender as a baseline for a FOSS graphics program UI.
20170824 05:53:01< aeth> Yes, it's really difficult as hell, but it's designed for people who take the time to learn the UI, who can then use it very efficiently.
20170824 05:53:13< vultraz_iOS> Blender is overkill for what I do
20170824 05:53:15< vultraz_iOS> pixelart
20170824 05:53:36< JyrkiVesterinen> There is commercial software that does reward people who are willing to learn. For your IDE example, Microsoft Visual Studio. It has tons and tons of features, and I'm sure I still haven't discovered nowhere near all of them.
20170824 05:54:27< vultraz_iOS> the point here being, Discord has a nice UI and makes everything more convenient for *me* 
20170824 05:54:33< vultraz_iOS> And I'm the one managing it
20170824 05:55:04< vultraz_iOS> I *still* don't know all the weird-ass IRC commands after 5 years!
20170824 05:55:18< aeth> You're not supposed to know every command.
20170824 05:55:25< aeth> I don't know every word in the English language.
20170824 05:55:52< aeth> I don't know every commands in the editors I use. I don't know every function in the programming languages I use.
20170824 05:55:55< vultraz_iOS> I suppose I would if I put effort into learning them
20170824 05:56:27< JyrkiVesterinen> There isn't much point in attempting to learn all IRC commands. Many of them are obscure and rarely used.
20170824 05:56:46< vultraz_iOS> but with Discord i can just go to settings and find what i need immediately
20170824 05:56:54< vultraz_iOS> want to kick someone? Two clicks away
20170824 05:57:03< vultraz_iOS> Want to promote someone? Two clicks
20170824 05:57:05< aeth> The thing is, mouse-driven UIs are discoverable, but inefficient.
20170824 05:57:20< aeth> If you know what you're doing, keyboard UIs will win in speed.
20170824 05:57:41< vultraz_iOS> none of this irc stuff about founders and managers and ops and voices and godknows what ese
20170824 05:57:43< vultraz_iOS> else
20170824 05:57:45< JyrkiVesterinen> There are mouse-driven IRC clients too. If I want to kick someone with my client, right-click -> Operate -> Kick.
20170824 05:57:45< aeth> One of the reasons I started using a terminal-based IRC client is because I could do everything with the keyboard.
20170824 05:58:00< aeth> Rather than only being able to do most.
20170824 05:58:14< vultraz_iOS> Bottom line is it's easier for me
20170824 05:58:15< aeth> I'm not against GUIs, I use the graphical Emacs. It has more features and better colors and fonts.
20170824 05:58:29< vultraz_iOS> more accessible for casual players 
20170824 05:58:33< aeth> I'm against UIs that require a mouse at any point of the interaction unless they're needed for good reason (almost always graphics)
20170824 05:58:34< vultraz_iOS> more convenient 
20170824 05:58:58< JyrkiVesterinen> Founders, managers and voice are rarely used. Ops are the only thing you should care about.
20170824 05:59:05< vultraz_iOS> God forbid I try to move the project to a different platform to make things easier, right :|
20170824 05:59:40< aeth> vultraz_iOS: Only so you have to migrate every 5 years. IRC has been around forever, and it'll be around for a long time to come as long as only companies with a profit motive try to replace it.
20170824 05:59:41< JyrkiVesterinen> And aeth's point is that IRC gives us choice. He prefers a keyboard-driven UI: I prefer a mouse-driven one.
20170824 05:59:47< JyrkiVesterinen> And we both have what we want.
20170824 05:59:54< JyrkiVesterinen> Something that Discord can't offer.
20170824 06:00:07< aeth> The thing is, too many good features of IRC are actively opposed to being able to profit from the software, like having different clients with different modes of interaction.
20170824 06:00:16< aeth> Lots of people even run their IRC client from within Emacs.
20170824 06:00:24< aeth> And lots run it from a web browser.
20170824 06:00:34< vultraz_iOS> (what I'm doing right now)
20170824 06:01:09< vultraz_iOS> well im logged in here on both my tablet and laptop 
20170824 06:01:39< aeth> I also bet IRC has better accessibility for blind users. I've met a few on IRC. Being able to connect just about any third party client has that advantage.
20170824 06:01:57< aeth> Discord probably didn't even think about blind users initially because it was designed as a Teamspeak replacement, i.e. to be used while gaming.
20170824 06:03:38< vultraz_iOS> it does have fantastic voice chat
20170824 06:03:52< JyrkiVesterinen> Voice chat is irrelevant for some of us.
20170824 06:03:55< vultraz_iOS> the quality is fucking phenomenal 
20170824 06:03:58< JyrkiVesterinen> I don't have a microphone.
20170824 06:04:02< aeth> Voice chat and text chat are separate things, especially if you view things from the perspective of allowing any client.
20170824 06:04:24< vultraz_iOS> i use it with the frogatto people
20170824 06:04:28< shadowm> Voice chat is completely irrelevant for the Wesnoth dev team.
20170824 06:04:45< aeth> And I haven't used voice chat in years. It's disruptive late at night (like now, for me), and people can hear what I say. How many people live alone?
20170824 06:05:08< aeth> Using voice chat at 2 am is rude.
20170824 06:05:10< vultraz_iOS> "people can hear what I say" that's the point of speaking! :|
20170824 06:06:02< aeth> Well, at least with IRC only people I intend to talk to (and if publically logged, people online, and even if not logged, the NSA) read what I say
20170824 06:06:41< shadowm> I'm going to point out that saying "fuck you" to a developer isn't how you start a civil debate btw.
20170824 06:07:12< shadowm> There are enough tone issues in here as of late to want to compound that issue.
20170824 06:08:03< aeth> I'm getting tired of having Discord arguments in gamedev channels instead of actually being able to contribute to those channels.
20170824 06:08:20< aeth> Of course, if the Discordians ultimately win, I guess I'll no longer have those arguments because everyone will be on Discord.
20170824 06:08:27< vultraz_iOS> you haven't been contributing anything :|
20170824 06:08:28< JyrkiVesterinen> How about not *starting* those arguments, then?
20170824 06:08:32< shadowm> Well, you're not a dev here so you don't need to worry about it.
20170824 06:08:37< vultraz_iOS> you haven't spoken for weeks
20170824 06:08:42< vultraz_iOS> and then start an argument
20170824 06:08:52< vultraz_iOS> and then complain about an argument being started
20170824 06:10:14< shadowm> There are actual Wesnoth devs who oppose Discord, however, and people who prefer platform fragmentation for their own benefit to the detriment of team cohesion.
20170824 06:11:19< shadowm> It says a lot about the potential for success of a software development team when they can't even agree on a single platform to use for communication.
20170824 06:11:27< aeth> I have game engine development experience in OpenGL, which is something that Wesnoth needs. Unfortunately, I have been quite busy with RL.
20170824 06:11:58< shadowm> Yes, we know that, it's not the point.
20170824 06:11:59< JyrkiVesterinen> "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." -Linus Torvalds
20170824 06:12:35< JyrkiVesterinen> It's easy to say that you plan (or, even easier, have planned) to do something. But the only thing that matters is actual contributions.
20170824 06:12:54< vultraz_iOS> ^
20170824 06:13:16< vultraz_iOS> You talk about helping with the rendering pipeline. I've actually been working on it.
20170824 06:13:30< aeth> My time is very finite at the moment.
20170824 06:14:15< shadowm> Sorry to hear that.
20170824 06:14:52< aeth> For the record, I have recently recovered from multi-year health issues. Strangely, this means I have less time than before.
20170824 06:15:10< vultraz_iOS> well, that's good.
20170824 06:16:33< vultraz_iOS> (I mean that sincerely. Recovering from health issues is a good thing)
20170824 06:18:48< shadowm> Anyway, my point still stands. There is an issue, the dev team needs to sort it out. The opinion of those not active in the dev team may be considered but it's not decisive or essential.
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20170824 06:20:29< shadowm> Reading different versions of the whole communication platform argument every few days is really irritating and doesn't make a good impression to the people observing this channel who ar enot devs.
20170824 06:21:00< shadowm> It's also inevitably going to result in devs leaving at some point.
20170824 06:23:30< shadowm> Hopefully some day you will reach a conclusion that is in the project's best interest and not for the benefit of specific people.
20170824 06:23:40< shadowm> Goodnight.
20170824 06:29:10< shadowm> (And to address the previous point of there not being anything to stop people from using both: yes, there is, and it's again the issue of team cohesion. People on both sides regularly neglect informing the other side of what's going on. This is not a hypothetical, this is a thing that happens all the time.)
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20170824 07:06:08< JyrkiVesterinen> shadowm: As I said, I'd prefer that the IRC-Discord bridge was set up for development channels as well.
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20170824 08:31:16< Elvish_Hunter> A thing that wasn't addressed in this "IRC vs Discord" debate is channel logging.
20170824 08:31:42< Elvish_Hunter> In IRC, this is a trivial thing to do: every client supports logging, and generates plain text files.
20170824 08:32:12< Elvish_Hunter> So, when you need to find some information that you need, you just have to grep the logs.
20170824 08:32:44< Elvish_Hunter> And on Discord? AFAIK, there's no way to download the logs: everything stays on their servers.
20170824 08:33:20< Elvish_Hunter> But... what will happen should Discord close, or should it require payment to view old conversation?
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20170824 08:33:41< Elvish_Hunter> It'll happen that valuable information will be lost.
20170824 08:34:34< Elvish_Hunter> And if you think that it's impossible for Discord to close or require payments, I have one recent example: Photobucket.
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20170824 09:50:39< loonycyborg> I wouldn't agree to discord becoming the main and the only wesnoth's chat
20170824 09:51:08< loonycyborg> Discord is meant for communities of gamers, not communities of developers
20170824 09:51:35< loonycyborg> So it's good for player outreach
20170824 09:51:41< loonycyborg> but it doesn't target devs
20170824 09:52:18< loonycyborg> there are other alternatives, that target developers
20170824 09:52:35< loonycyborg> Like gitter.
20170824 09:53:08< loonycyborg> Once gitlab gets around to opensourcing it we could run gitter on our own hardware, without depending on any outside infrastructure
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20170824 09:55:36< loonycyborg> Though only thing that gitter doesn't absolutely support is private channels. Everything is fully logged :P
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20170824 10:00:39< loonycyborg> well, it seems they can be private, but always logged
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20170824 10:15:35< loonycyborg> Also, if we decide to take down irker I even don't know how to do that :P
20170824 10:22:33< vultraz_iOS> There are ways to export discord logs
20170824 10:22:42< vultraz_iOS> I don't know them
20170824 10:22:48< vultraz_iOS> But it is technically possible
20170824 10:22:49< vultraz_iOS> Somehow
20170824 10:23:06< vultraz_iOS> We did it a few months ago for the Board channel logs
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20170824 10:34:32< loonycyborg> vultraz_iOS: but there's a possibility that we won't know to export them in advance
20170824 10:35:53< loonycyborg> a disaster can always strike without warning
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20170824 12:28:33< vn971> Hi folks. I wonder, did you consider the following feature request: make fog of war appear on enemy turns, but preserve it during allies turns?
20170824 12:29:53< vn971> The problem is the following. Suppose you have 2 allied players. One of them sends a fast unit to scout territory, but returns back eventually. Now, he ends its turn and _immediately_ after that is your allies player turn. Now, should he be able to see the scouted terrain?
20170824 12:30:58< vn971> Common sense says "yes", because actually nothing changed since you last saw everything. You could even write a client-side thing that would memoise everything, or make a photo of your monitor.
20170824 12:31:47< vn971> But the current (non-dev 1.12.6) implementation of wesnoth hides everything from you with the fog of war.
20170824 12:31:56< vn971> So.. What do you think?
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20170824 13:18:30< zookeeper> vn971, common sense says yes, sure, but hard to say whether that's enough in this case
20170824 13:19:23< vn971> zookeeper: well, are there any objections of making Fog-of-war behave like this?
20170824 13:19:50< zookeeper> i don't know. that's why i said it's hard to say :J
20170824 13:20:45< zookeeper> it just seems like the kind of thing where it's easy to miss some relevant detail
20170824 13:20:59< vn971> zookeeper: I only see the (theoretical) possibility of a WML script creating a unit between turns. And that it would be somehow unwanted for some very complex scenarios. But overall, this seems very unlikely to ever happen.
20170824 13:21:46< vn971> zookeeper: well, we all know how to not make any mistakes.:)
20170824 13:22:17< vn971> By not doing anything at all...
20170824 13:23:19< zookeeper> the idea makes sense, but does it make more sense than treating allied fog of sides 1,2 the same as allied fog of sides 1,3 (an enemy side in between)?
20170824 13:23:52< zookeeper> i mean, it does introduce an exception where suddenly fog doesn't get reset between side turns if the next side is an ally
20170824 13:28:46< vn971> zookeeper: as I think, it makes sense to just implement the "make a photo" functionality.
20170824 13:32:12< vn971> zookeeper: as simple as that..
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20170824 20:37:18< irker470> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 01db4d939959 / src/sdl/rect.cpp: Fix a couple MSVC compiler warnings https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/01db4d93995965a3343816c6aa1485afd2ddfaf0
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