--- Log opened Sun Aug 13 00:00:17 2017 20170813 00:02:28-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 00:14:19-!- madmax28 [madmax28ma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-twljkftrqxnuqhyk] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 00:23:30-!- madmax28 [madmax28ma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-twljkftrqxnuqhyk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 00:24:04-!- heyalex[m] [heyalexmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vtmruhlllnmbdosp] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 00:24:42-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.164] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 00:25:03-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.164] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 00:32:56-!- amello [~amello@179.159.56.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170813 00:33:14-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 00:51:16-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 00:51:23-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 00:58:52-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:998c:d0cd:ed84:d783] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170813 01:03:26-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:e579:abc1:3ff:f1cf] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 01:28:22-!- heyalex[m] [heyalexmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lwdbovreynfcmmtq] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 01:47:10-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 01:57:05-!- madmax28 [madmax28ma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nojxfegbfqfgydgs] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 02:26:56-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC65C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20170813 02:29:02-!- NullConstant [~mes@37.248.154.236] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20170813 02:35:35-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 02:39:28-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 02:44:11-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 03:56:17-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170813 04:08:23-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 05:49:25-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B37B09A91250F7EE2F9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 06:03:25-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170813 06:35:41< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @shikadilord) http://units.wesnoth.org is now rebuilt with the new "Wesmere" site design, putting an end to its deployment process at lon… [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/896621260360175619 ] 20170813 06:55:51< Kwandulin> Sometimes the different lists dont align in the unit database: compare https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/Deep_Elves/en_US/Harbinger.html (all lists are in a single columns) and https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/Deep_Elves/en_US/Blood%20Maiden.html (lists are in different columns). Is this intended? 20170813 07:12:01< shadowm> Suuuuuure. 20170813 07:12:05< shadowm> (No.) 20170813 07:20:09< shadowm> Kwandulin: Are you using Firefox? 20170813 07:20:22< Kwandulin> shadowm: Yes 20170813 07:25:45< shadowm> I'll have to look into it later when it's not 4:22 am, but basically Firefox seems to have an issue where the left column grows infinitely large when the content is too small (because of the empty unit description). 20170813 08:15:08-!- temp_trisquel [5eb30ae9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.179.10.233] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 08:15:10< temp_trisquel> Hi. 20170813 08:15:36< temp_trisquel> So, why did you decide to allow non-free add-ons? 20170813 08:24:53< wesnoth-discord-> we haven't 20170813 08:24:58< wesnoth-discord-> the addons are still free 20170813 08:26:01< temp_trisquel> Some CC licenses are non-free. 20170813 08:26:05< temp_trisquel> CC-*NC 20170813 08:26:10< temp_trisquel> CC-*ND 20170813 08:32:03< temp_trisquel> Maybe. it's better to remove add-ons downloader then? 20170813 08:34:31< wesnoth-discord-> So you've decided to become some kind of OSS licensing vigilante? 20170813 08:35:22< temp_trisquel> Anything MUST be free. 20170813 08:35:34< wesnoth-discord-> Hm hm tell me more. 20170813 08:35:38< temp_trisquel> I'm GNU user. 20170813 08:35:46< wesnoth-discord-> Okay. 20170813 08:36:04< wesnoth-discord-> We are not charging or allowing anyone to charge anything for their addons 20170813 08:36:06< wesnoth-discord-> Ergo, free 20170813 08:36:12< wesnoth-discord-> That's the end of it 20170813 08:36:45< temp_trisquel> Free as in speech, not as in beer. 20170813 08:37:49-!- mode/#wesnoth [+b temp_trisquel!*@*] by ChanServ 20170813 08:37:49-!- temp_trisquel was kicked from #wesnoth by ChanServ [User is banned from this channel] 20170813 08:38:25< wesnoth-discord-> (This is a thing this person does, don't worry about it.) 20170813 08:44:35-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 08:51:05-!- zookeeper [zookeeper@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 08:59:02-!- zookeeper [zookeeper@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [] 20170813 08:59:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 08:59:59-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 09:09:49-!- temp_trisquelw [5eb30ae9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.179.10.233] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 09:09:50< temp_trisquelw> Reported: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1897 20170813 09:09:52-!- temp_trisquelw [5eb30ae9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.94.179.10.233] has left #wesnoth [] 20170813 09:11:41< vultraz_iOS> jesus christ 20170813 09:12:09< vultraz_iOS> how do I IP ban this jackass 20170813 09:39:45< zookeeper> i wonder what else you've seen him do to get so worked up about it 20170813 09:42:24< vultraz_iOS> well once i realized he was obviously a troll and was told he was pulling the same crap on other channels I lost all patience with him 20170813 09:55:10< zookeeper> i'd reserve loss of patience for cases more deserving of it :p 20170813 10:12:43-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 10:12:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 10:35:46-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B37B09A91250F7EE2F9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170813 11:05:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 11:05:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 11:25:46-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 11:52:13-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 11:52:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.216.91] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~Shiki@p54855CD8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 14:02:16-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485594A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:04:25-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p548568F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 14:04:46-!- amello [~amello@179.159.56.56] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:04:55-!- sevu [~Shiki@p5485624F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:05:05-!- NullConstant [~mes@37.248.154.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 14:05:24-!- NullConstant [~mes@ip-31-0-126-243.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:05:46-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:05:54-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 14:06:26-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54855031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:06:26-!- sevu [~Shiki@p5485624F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20170813 14:06:44-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485594A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 14:10:58-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54855031.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 14:12:35-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p548557B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:18:02-!- sevu|shiki is now known as sevu 20170813 14:21:07-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485430C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:21:07-!- sevu [~Shiki@p548557B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20170813 14:22:23-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:23:02-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 14:25:31-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485430C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 14:25:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:26:06< Soliton> "We are not charging or allowing anyone to charge anything for their addons" is there some official statement somewhere backing that up? the forum post about UMC content licensing changes does not state anything like that. 20170813 14:26:37-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 14:27:31< wesnoth-discord-> There isn't any mechanism to force someone to pay money to be able to download or play an add-on. 20170813 14:27:37-!- shiki [~Shiki@p54854551.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:30:22-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p548566F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:30:49-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:31:29< Soliton> no built-in way to charge for add-ons is fairly far away from not allowing to. 20170813 14:31:37-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@140.207.223.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 14:31:43< zookeeper> well, the licensing "issue" was in context of the official add-on server 20170813 14:32:02-!- shiki [~Shiki@p54854551.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 14:33:33-!- shiki [~Shiki@p548555F3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:34:39< Soliton> i'm not particularly refering to the inane stuff from the temp_trisquelw guy. i'm wondering what vultraz's statement means. 20170813 14:35:05-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p548566F7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 14:35:20< zookeeper> i guess in theory someone could upload a scrambled add-on and demand payment for a key to unscramble it, but i wouldn't worry about that happening anytime soon :p 20170813 14:36:33< wesnoth-discord-> Also rule #2 for the add-on server: "Make sure that whatever content you upload actually works and doesn’t produce errors. You can upload works-in-progress, as long as they work." 20170813 14:37:07< wesnoth-discord-> And #9: "Add-ons published must be offered in good faith for all members of the community to enjoy." 20170813 14:38:19< Soliton> unfortunately none of that says much about not allowing to charge anything for your add-on. 20170813 14:39:38-!- shiki [~Shiki@p548555F3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 14:39:52-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485569F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:40:20< wesnoth-discord-> If you restrict access to who can play your add-on, then by definition all members of the community can't enjoy it. 20170813 14:41:22< Soliton> i don't see where the access restriction comes in at all. 20170813 14:41:41< Soliton> note that the GPL does not forbid selling, btw. 20170813 14:42:11-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54855D5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:44:57-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485569F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 14:45:13-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485596A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:45:21< wesnoth-discord-> If the add-on is freely available on Wesnoth's add-on server, why would we care if they have a patreon or something for it? 20170813 14:45:53< Soliton> indeed that is basically the question. 20170813 14:47:05-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54855D5F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 14:47:33< wesnoth-discord-> I don't consider that to be paying for an add-on. Someone made an add-on, and someone else decided to donate to the person because they like their work. 20170813 14:47:45-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54854E51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:49:13< Soliton> so why did you bring it up? 20170813 14:49:45-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B3751948F08F130EAE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:49:47< wesnoth-discord-> Because I'm not sure what other scenario you'd be referring to that wouldn't be covered by the rules I mentioned. 20170813 14:50:27< Soliton> i'm not aksing about the rules you mentioned. maybe it's best if i repeat my question... 20170813 14:50:31-!- shiki [~Shiki@p5485596A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 14:51:04< Soliton> "We are not charging or allowing anyone to charge anything for their addons" is there some official statement somewhere backing that up? 20170813 14:53:01< wesnoth-discord-> I am not aware of any previous statement specifically saying that. My point is that it's already effectively forbidden anyway. 20170813 14:53:26-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854F57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 14:53:58-!- sevu|shiki [~Shiki@p54854E51.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20170813 14:55:23< Soliton> so you're saying that "Add-ons published must be offered in good faith for all members of the community to enjoy." somehow says that you cannot charge for an add-on? 20170813 14:57:01< Ravana_> I understand that official addon server supports no way to enforce payment, but people may run their own addon server with exactly the rules that they want. 20170813 14:57:41< wesnoth-discord-> Yes. Add-ons on the official add-on server must be playable by *all* members of the community. 20170813 14:58:18< wesnoth-discord-> That's exactly what the rule states. 20170813 14:58:44< Soliton> what about peopple that cannot afford a computer? 20170813 14:59:21< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth is a computer game, how would they even be here? 20170813 14:59:50< celticminstrel> ... 20170813 14:59:56< Kwandulin> lol 20170813 14:59:59 * celticminstrel just saw "issue" 1897. 20170813 15:01:22< Soliton> fine what about people that don't speak the language the add-on is written in? 20170813 15:01:30< wesnoth-discord-> And if they're using someone else's computer, and it has some arbitrary restriction(s) on it, then that's not something we can control. 20170813 15:02:24< wesnoth-discord-> You can play an add-on where you can't understand the dialog. I don't think it'd be very fun, but you can. 20170813 15:03:15< wesnoth-discord-> The point is, it's accessible for anyone. 20170813 15:03:25< Soliton> ok, i guess i cannot fathom enough of your argument to even ask for clarification. 20170813 15:05:11< Soliton> i cannot see any relation to vultraz's statement but if that rule #9 is what he was referring to then that answers my question. 20170813 15:07:10< Soliton> i would recommend clarifying that rule so that people understand that it somehow implies not being allowed to charge for add-ons. 20170813 15:07:22< wesnoth-discord-> I wasn't referring to any rule. I meant what I said plainly. We're not selling addons. We're not providing official infrastructure to sell addons. If someone wants to run their own server for paid addons we cannot really stop them. 20170813 15:08:21 * celticminstrel thinks @Vultraz should've been a little more polite to the open-source zealot. 20170813 15:08:37< wesnoth-discord-> I had toyed with the idea of using Steam Workshop to allow paid addons, but came to realize even that wasn't a good idea 20170813 15:08:59< Soliton> oh, so with "not allowing" you meant "not providing means to". alright. 20170813 15:09:26 * celticminstrel wonders what FSDG actually stands for. Wikipedia redirects it to the GNU project, and FS is obviously "free software", but DG? 20170813 15:09:54< Soliton> i think he meant dsfg. 20170813 15:10:01< celticminstrel> ? 20170813 15:10:07< Soliton> some debian guide line. 20170813 15:10:14< wesnoth-discord-> https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.en.html 20170813 15:10:21< celticminstrel> Ah. 20170813 15:10:45< wesnoth-discord-> The distros he was referring to: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html 20170813 15:10:56-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@178.71.113.130] has quit [Quit: Soo_Slow] 20170813 15:11:17< Soliton> ah, i guess that is inspired by https://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses 20170813 15:12:14< celticminstrel> I've never even heard of any of those free distros. 20170813 15:12:38< celticminstrel> Are any of them as significant among users as, say, Ubuntu? 20170813 15:13:18< zookeeper> if one wanted to take his argument seriously, would non-free content on an add-on server that serves third-party content even make wesnoth "non-free" according to such guidelines? 20170813 15:14:03< wesnoth-discord-> I dunno nor do I really care 20170813 15:14:05-!- shiki [~Shiki@p54854F43.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 15:14:05-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854F57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20170813 15:14:25< wesnoth-discord-> It has never been the goal to appese OSS zealots 20170813 15:14:45< wesnoth-discord-> No idea how you'd go about measuring linux distro usage, other than on distrowatch Trisquel is 91 and Parabola is 94 20170813 15:14:46< zookeeper> i mean... if you can use the free program to connect to someplace from where you can download non-free stuff, then that strikes me as rather similar to what a whole lot of other programs such as browsers do :p 20170813 15:15:20< wesnoth-discord-> They're below even SteamOS 20170813 15:15:45< Soliton> yeah, i doubt those guidelines say much about add-ons at all. 20170813 15:15:54< celticminstrel> zookeeper: I'm guessing that wouldn't qualify, because presumably every distro includes a package manager, and you can probably configure that package manager to connect to package repositories that offer nonfree software. 20170813 15:18:31< Soliton> presumably the listed distros don't provide non-free repos. so unless their package manager is compatible to that of some other distro that does you won't get non-free software via the package manager. 20170813 15:19:03< Soliton> but you can via wget or some browser surely. 20170813 15:19:06< celticminstrel> Well, one or two of them mentioned being Ubuntu-based, so I'd assume there could be compatibility. 20170813 15:19:09< celticminstrel> But yeat. 20170813 15:19:11< celticminstrel> ^yeah 20170813 15:19:19< celticminstrel> Internet is another possible source. 20170813 15:28:09-!- amello [~amello@179.159.56.56] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170813 15:29:01-!- NullConstant [~mes@ip-31-0-126-243.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 15:32:15< Soliton> Pentarctagon: btw, add-on size is another thing that certainly restricts the enjoyment for "all members of the community" and probably not something rule #9 meant to imply either. 20170813 15:32:39-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 15:33:48-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@112.64.217.91] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 15:34:49< wesnoth-discord-> Hence why is says "in good faith". 20170813 15:35:20< wesnoth-discord-> Huge add-ons don't exist to screw over people with slow internet 20170813 15:35:56< Soliton> so why would charging money be designed to screw over poor people? 20170813 15:36:26< wesnoth-discord-> Because you need to read the whole rule, not a few words at a time. 20170813 15:38:12< Soliton> would you mind pointing out which words i left out? 20170813 15:39:19< wesnoth-discord-> 9. Add-ons published must be offered in good faith for all members of the community to enjoy. Punitive measures up to and including bans may be applied for violations of this principle, which include, but are not limited to, employing mechanisms having the purpose or function of doing any of the following to one or more specific person(s): give them any gameplay advantage or disadvantage, prevent or hinder them from 20170813 15:39:19< wesnoth-discord-> playing, or insult or otherwise harass them. 20170813 15:41:44< Soliton> so you're saying charging money hinders people to play the add-on (in bad faith) while a big add-on does perhaps hinder people to play the add-on but is in good faith? 20170813 15:43:18< zookeeper> Soliton, isn't this uncharacteristically pedantic of you? :p 20170813 15:44:23-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 15:44:25< Soliton> perhaps so. i think it's good to understand the reasoning of our forum admin though. :-) 20170813 15:44:36< wesnoth-discord-> Look, there are a thousand and more different reasons that one person or another could be hindered from playing a particular add-on. If you really want another rule or point added specifically for add-ons not being allowed to require money on the official add-on server (despite it already being impossible), then it can be added. 20170813 15:45:59< Soliton> i rather would like you to understand that it is not forbidden to charge money for an add-on or if i'm mistaken indeed get clarification on that. 20170813 15:46:20< Soliton> i don't see how it is imopossible either. 20170813 15:46:43< wesnoth-discord-> Explain to me how someone would do it then 20170813 15:46:59< Soliton> probably that is again the idea that it must be perfectly enforcable by some technical means to do so. 20170813 15:47:57< Soliton> the most trivial case is to just ask people to pay you money for your add-on. perhaps even let them decide how much to pay. 20170813 15:48:28< wesnoth-discord-> Which isn't paying for an add-on, it's a donation. 20170813 15:49:07< Soliton> a tax deductable one? :-P 20170813 15:49:21< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth may eventually open up a patreon, that doesn't mean people are paying for wesnoth. 20170813 15:49:33< wesnoth-discord-> are -> would be 20170813 15:50:12< Soliton> though fine if you want to declare any form of charging money i'll come up with that does not involve wesnoth somehow enforcing/supporting the payment then there is no need to discuss further. 20170813 15:52:28< wesnoth-discord-> I mean, if it doesn't involve wesnoth, then... it doesn't involve wesnoth. 20170813 15:52:46-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20170813 16:42:06-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B3751948F08F130EAE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170813 16:53:24-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@178.71.113.130] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 17:00:28< wesnoth-discord-> Maybe to clarify what I mean, now that I've had some more time to think on it: - Neither Wesnoth's add-on manager, nor addons.wesnoth.org, have any means to require a payment be made before downloading an add-on, nor does it seem at all likely that this will change. If this *were* to change, then this rule would perhaps need to be clarified. - Therefore, currently and for the foreseeable future, in order to restrict 20170813 17:00:28< wesnoth-discord-> non-paying people from being able to play an add-on, the add-on itself would need to somehow have code to prevent people who haven't paid from playing. - Add-ons having code to prevent certain people from playing while allowing others, is the precise reason why rule #9 was created. - I do not consider asking people to give money, or opening up a patreon, or any other similar method, to be "paying for an add-on". If someone who gives $0 20170813 17:00:29< wesnoth-discord-> gets access to the same content as someone who gives $5 (or any particular sum of money), then access to the content is not what the money is for. 20170813 17:01:13-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B3751948F08F130EAE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 17:03:48-!- NullConstant [~mes@ip-31-0-126-243.multi.internet.cyfrowypolsat.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 17:09:27< shadowm> What the actual crap is this. 20170813 17:10:20< wesnoth-discord-> fallout from the troll 20170813 17:10:21< shadowm> We neither allow licenses that exclusively restrict distribution of add-ons under a paid license nor does the platform we use allow for implementing such a thing, so I can't believe you all just spent several hours of your life on it. 20170813 17:11:15< shadowm> Also, I told vultraz to ban trisquel because that thing they did they did at least to one another project's channel and issue tracker, and potentially other channels since they were killed the other day by freenode's anti-spam bot. 20170813 17:12:11< shadowm> *under a paid model 20170813 17:13:33< shadowm> I've seen people with much more tolerance for that kind of people try to converse with them and they only respond by insisting on the "issue" and demanding immediate action. 20170813 17:13:59< shadowm> Hopefully that clears it up and you'll all go do more productive things with your time. 20170813 17:17:55-!- shiki [~Shiki@p54854F43.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 17:25:43< Soliton> perhaps it is useful to point out that while we've been focusing on the payment aspect the fsdg and presumably that guy was not concerned about that at all but about the other freedom (free as in free speech). 20170813 17:32:52< wesnoth-discord-> what does that even mean 20170813 17:34:33< wesnoth-discord-> The FSF's definition of "free software" requires that everyone who distributes the piece of software or a modified version does so with the same licence as the original, i.e. without adding more restrictions. Moreover, they require that the licence enforces it. 20170813 17:35:37< wesnoth-discord-> and we have all that 20170813 17:36:11< wesnoth-discord-> Not true.. There are some Creative Commons licences which don't have the share-alike clause. 20170813 17:36:14< Soliton> unless someone uses the nc or nd licenses. 20170813 17:37:57< wesnoth-discord-> Nothing blocks an UMC author from downloading an add-on that uses a permissive license (e.g. CC0), optionally making modifications, and redistributing it with more restrictive terms (maybe on their own add-on server rather than ours). 20170813 17:38:23< wesnoth-discord-> Add-ons for which it's allowed are *not* free software according to FSF's definition. 20170813 17:48:47< shadowm> That's not a label I'm going to miss very much. 20170813 17:49:11< wesnoth-discord-> You just hate freedom. 20170813 17:49:39< wesnoth-discord-> FSF's definition of "free software" is backwards. "Enforcing freedom" is an oxymoron if I have ever heard one. 20170813 17:49:48< shadowm> Furthermore, the GIMP has never stopped being free software because people can use non-free brushes with it. 20170813 17:49:53< celticminstrel> What was that about a troll? 20170813 17:50:18< shadowm> (And other non-free assets in general.) 20170813 17:51:27< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah, IANAL but I do not understand how the license of something unincluded could influence the license of wesnoth? 20170813 17:52:10< wesnoth-discord-> isn't the whole point of many FOSS remakes of old games like FreeSynd, that they use the old proprietary assets 20170813 17:52:15< wesnoth-discord-> which are just not included 20170813 17:53:57< celticminstrel> Oh, I see. 20170813 17:54:09< celticminstrel> I guess logs can indeed be useful occasionally. >_> 20170813 17:54:42< celticminstrel> Also +1 @jyrkive :O 20170813 17:55:31< celticminstrel> ...some random guy just commented on the zealot's "bug" report. 20170813 17:59:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@cm56-229-75.liwest.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 18:14:25< shadowm> This is the kind of reports that person writes: https://github.com/supertuxkart/stk-code/issues/2900 20170813 18:22:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@46.125.249.30] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 18:25:18< wesnoth-discord-> his phrasing suggests that he does not actually know very much (no actual invocation of license) but I've seen more intelligent people also say Steam would cause problems with GPL - has FSF or RMS or anyone taken an official stance on steam? 20170813 18:29:46< shadowm> The bottomline is it doesn't unless you use the Steamworks API. 20170813 18:30:22< wesnoth-discord-> bottomline by normal people, or has anyone lawyerly looked at it? 20170813 18:30:37< shadowm> The DRM features of the platform are also optional and not even contemplated by the GNU GPL version 2 in the first place. 20170813 18:30:58< shadowm> There's like * 20170813 18:31:16< shadowm> *like *one* instance the GNU GPL ever being tried in court in recent history, so I doubt it. 20170813 18:31:50< shadowm> (Ultimately even a lawyer's word doesn't mean much until a judge rules a verdict.) 20170813 18:38:52-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 18:43:53< Soo_Slow> what was this discuss about? If it was about possibility to add steam features on release - you can always do it as plugin and it wont violate gpl license 20170813 18:46:17< celmin> Yup. 20170813 18:46:41< celmin> Some people have been talking about Steam achievements. I don't think it's likely to actually happen though... 20170813 18:48:21< celmin> While it certainly is possible to use a separate binary for communicating with Steam and dealing with achievements and such, that still kind of requires the achievements to be coded into the game, so I really think Wesnoth should not support Steam-only achievements. 20170813 18:50:35< TC01> Maybe Wesnoth could grow support for non-Steam achievements (viewable in-game, saved locally somewhere) and have some kind of optional hook system that shells out to a separate binary that communicates the achievements to steam? 20170813 18:50:53< TC01> then the system would still function without steam. 20170813 18:50:57< celmin> Yeah. 20170813 18:51:12< celmin> Of course, this would make it pretty easy to cheat your achievements… >_> 20170813 18:51:53< wesnoth-discord-> Campaign completion laurels (by yours truly) should be achievement enough 20170813 18:51:55< celmin> I suppose you could try to make it nontrivial (store them encrypted or something), but ... 20170813 18:52:10< celmin> Wait, @blarumyrran made the laurels? 20170813 18:52:26< wesnoth-discord-> I've made a million ui things 20170813 18:52:35-!- tonepoet [~tonepoet@199-241-200-122.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 18:52:44< TC01> I mean... I don't know how much you need to care about people cheating their achievements, really :) 20170813 18:52:49< wesnoth-discord-> As long as the achievements don't actually *do* anything, then it doesn't seem like a huge issue. 20170813 18:53:01< celmin> BTW, I recently implemented the three-level laurel system that someone suggested on the forums (using doofus's bronze and silver laurels). 20170813 18:53:03< Soo_Slow> some games feature both steam and steamless achievements 20170813 18:53:05< zookeeper> achievements......... 20170813 18:53:29< TC01> @Pentarctagon: exactly. 20170813 18:53:46< Soo_Slow> e.g you have achievements screen in game and they register, while you get them. But if you launch game from steam - it synchronise them with your local ones 20170813 18:53:57< zookeeper> taking the fun out of actually achieving things in a game since... i don't know, when did those become a thing? 20170813 18:53:58-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.143.12] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 18:54:01< wesnoth-discord-> Or even just better overall stat tracking in general. I'm sure some people would like to know their most played faction, total number of units killed, healed, etc 20170813 18:54:04< Soo_Slow> and so - they become avaliable on steam profile too 20170813 18:54:47< celmin> @Pentarctagon - feel free to open a feature request? 20170813 18:55:15< wesnoth-discord-> I would, but I don't actually care about those things too much. 20170813 18:55:16< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: ~2010, I think 20170813 18:55:31< wesnoth-discord-> With the start of Steam and social media games 20170813 18:55:39< celmin> "social media games"? 20170813 18:55:48< wesnoth-discord-> I'm just saying there are probably people who do 20170813 18:56:21< wesnoth-discord-> facebook games and the like 20170813 18:56:26< celmin> Ah. 20170813 18:59:41< shadowm> celmin: To clarify, blarumyrran made the laurels themselves, not the code. 20170813 18:59:55< celmin> That's indeed what I was assuming. 20170813 19:00:03< celmin> Given that IIRC he's an artist? 20170813 19:00:07< Soo_Slow> actually cheevos arent bad themself, to track progress. E.g to remember, that you already was in this dungeon and killed it boss or gtg before bossroom, for example 20170813 19:00:14< shadowm> Yeah, but some artists are also coders. :p 20170813 19:00:18< celmin> Ah, true, true. 20170813 19:00:18< Soo_Slow> while cheevofap is bad, yeah 20170813 19:00:48< celmin> I think a way of resetting achievements would be nice, too. 20170813 19:01:02< Soo_Slow> also in some games achievements provide perks. Like loot for character, who got em, or special skills 20170813 19:01:02< shadowm> zookeeper: I completely disagree with you btw. Achievements are nice when they are well designed. 20170813 19:01:11< celmin> So you can play through again and get them all over again. 20170813 19:01:11< shadowm> They are obnoxious when they are not. 20170813 19:01:47< celmin> I remember playing a web game a long time ago which was basically nothing but achievements. It was actually kinda funny TBH. 20170813 19:02:03< wesnoth-discord-> Is a well designed slot machine a good slot machine... 20170813 19:02:12< shadowm> It's just that in Wesnoth's particular case it's not really obvious what should count as an achievement, and the stuff that probably would do, would require tracking player actions in ways that we currently can't, probably. 20170813 19:02:46< wesnoth-discord-> At least finishing each baseline campaign could be an achievement. 20170813 19:03:18< shadowm> Like, for example, have your Goblin Spearman survive all attacks for the entirety of an scenario at 1 HP? It's a good example of a bad achievement, and also a good example of an achievement we can't track right now. 20170813 19:03:50< shadowm> Unless we wanted to increase replay footprint by 100x. 20170813 19:04:46< wesnoth-discord-> all achievement ideas of that type might actually work as scenario ideas (bonus within scenario) 20170813 19:04:57< wesnoth-discord-> which seems infinitely better 20170813 19:05:35-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20170813 19:08:22< tonepoet> Did they take Fearless away from the heavy infantryman trait pool? 20170813 19:08:48< zookeeper> no 20170813 19:08:55< tonepoet> Hmm. 20170813 19:09:02-!- tonepoet is now known as Tonepoet 20170813 19:09:10< Tonepoet> I haven't noticed it lately. 20170813 19:18:35-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B3751948F08F130EAE6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170813 19:20:18-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B03798137DB3EF5B49A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 19:41:28-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B03798137DB3EF5B49A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170813 19:45:08-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.143.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 19:45:57< wesnoth-discord-> @blarumyrran for the record, I nor the project care what the FSF or RMS have to say on Steam. 20170813 19:50:16< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) What OS/platform do you play Wesnoth on? Let us know here! #gamedev https://r.wesnoth.org/t46599 [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/896821221253238784 ] 20170813 19:50:48< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz Watch out. In RMS you will find a massive enemy 20170813 19:51:07< wesnoth-discord-> I couldn't care less. 20170813 19:51:16< wesnoth-discord-> >_> a joke was made. 20170813 19:51:25< wesnoth-discord-> He can't do anything to us 20170813 19:52:21< wesnoth-discord-> @Vultraz I think that was a weight joke 😛 20170813 19:52:32< wesnoth-discord-> oh? 20170813 19:52:34< wesnoth-discord-> well, then 20170813 19:52:35< wesnoth-discord-> heh 20170813 19:57:40< shadowm> I'd prefer if we avoided those. 20170813 20:14:34< wesnoth-discord-> true. apologies. 20170813 20:27:34< wesnoth-discord-> "jyrkive - heute um 21:02 Uhr At least finishing each baseline campaign could be an achievement." 20170813 20:27:42< wesnoth-discord-> i like that idea 20170813 20:30:09< wesnoth-discord-> i think such simple achievments are the way to go - they don't affect the playthrough that much. 20170813 20:32:46< wesnoth-discord-> steam is also not the only platform that could benefit from achievments - the mobile ports have achiementsystems(Gamecenter, GooglePlay) , too. 20170813 20:35:45< wesnoth-discord-> so a centralized system in the engine would make sense to me, as you discussed this topic above ->" some games feature both steam and steamless achievements" 20170813 20:39:04-!- Haudegen [~quassel@46.125.249.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170813 20:42:35< Soo_Slow> yeah. It still will require additional work for each platform, but it wont be development of whole achievement system - just small plugin, that will take calls and translate them 20170813 20:52:59-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 21:14:05-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@178.71.113.130] has quit [Quit: Soo_Slow] 20170813 21:33:42-!- amello [~amello@179.159.56.56] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 21:38:07-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170813 21:51:04-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC65C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 21:54:48-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 21:58:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170813 21:59:13< aeth> A lot of games have both achievements, it's not hard. They just have some in-game way to view achievements. 20170813 22:00:17< aeth> There are some issues with achievements. e.g. you have to make sure to disable achievements if console commands are used. You might also want to disable MP achievements on custom games or people will just play achievement-farming maps 20170813 22:00:52< aeth> A lot of games similar to Wesnoth have 'iron man' modes that are required for achievements. No console commands and no save/loading (instead, one constantly overwritten save file) 20170813 22:04:58< Polsaker> imo just having an achievement for each mainline campaign would be more than enough 20170813 22:05:12< aeth> You could *probably* even use the non-Steam in-game achievements to let campaigns and custom MP scenarios/campaigns to have their own (non-Steam) achievements. 20170813 22:05:12< DeFender1031> ugh, achievements. 20170813 22:05:35< aeth> DeFender1031: you can't really release on Steam without them. 20170813 22:05:39< DeFender1031> I hate gamification in general, but why the hell do we need to gamify things that are ALREADY GAMES!? 20170813 22:06:01< aeth> DeFender1031: I tend to ignore achievements, though, because they tend to either be 80% trivial, 20% impossible, or 10% trivial, 90% ipossible. 20170813 22:06:25< aeth> Achievements used to be, well, achievable back 10 years ago. Now there are too many impossible ones (except on tiny puzzle games and similar ones) for me to care 20170813 22:06:55< aeth> If Wesnoth went the mainstream achivement route there'd be an achievement for winning a game with only your leader character and no recruiting... because that's about the level of impossibility some achievements get. 20170813 22:07:13< aeth> And when they're that hard, why would I care to try for 100%? 20170813 22:07:45< DeFender1031> It's doable. Just save before each attack and only accept the ones where your leader doesn't take any damage. 20170813 22:07:51< DeFender1031> :P 20170813 22:08:07< aeth> DeFender1031: Achivements done right are about 30% game progress, 30% reasonable counters you don't have to work at (like kill X units where X is very reachable), 30% showing off the easter eggs, and 10% impressive but not impossible things imo. 20170813 22:08:17< aeth> DeFender1031: They're useful when they show off easter eggs. 20170813 22:08:23< DeFender1031> Legit. 20170813 22:08:24< aeth> It etlls you what hidden content to look for 20170813 22:08:27< aeth> *tells 20170813 22:08:48< aeth> DeFender1031: And as for the leader achivement that's why those games tend to force Iron Man mode, too. No saveloading. 20170813 22:09:22< aeth> Iron Man mode is no saveloading (just a constant autosave), no non-cosmetic mods, etc. 20170813 22:22:29< aeth> Personally, I find mods to be fun so I tend to get about 0/400 achivements on such games, even if I put in thousands of hours. 20170813 22:39:39< wesnoth-discord-> put it on steam already folks 20170813 22:39:47< wesnoth-discord-> cant update it patch by patch manually like before 20170813 22:39:51< wesnoth-discord-> 😅 20170813 22:39:56< wesnoth-discord-> Patience. 20170813 22:40:01< wesnoth-discord-> fine... 20170813 22:40:15< wesnoth-discord-> but I thought it was on greenlight last last year already? 20170813 22:40:26< wesnoth-discord-> Yes. 20170813 22:40:49< wesnoth-discord-> what difficulties hindered the progress 20170813 22:40:52< wesnoth-discord-> lack of staff? 20170813 22:42:10< wesnoth-discord-> 1.14.0 has not been released yet, it's as simple as that. 20170813 22:56:38< wesnoth-discord-> k 20170813 23:00:36-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.143.12] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 23:04:43-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.143.12] has quit [Client Quit] 20170813 23:08:49-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20170813 23:08:56< celticminstrel> aeth: I disagree, you can totally release on Steam without achievements. 20170813 23:09:35< celticminstrel> And speaking of easter eggs, I still wish Braid had an achievement for collecting the stars. 20170813 23:13:43< celticminstrel> ISTR it wasn't included mainly because Steam didn't have hidden achievements at the time... 20170813 23:15:59< wesnoth-discord-> lol what!? 20170813 23:16:11< wesnoth-discord-> you guys want ACHIEVEMENTS on steam? 20170813 23:16:21< wesnoth-discord-> what achievements may it be, I wish to ask? 20170813 23:16:41< wesnoth-discord-> beat all secondary routes and get full house of heroes? 20170813 23:16:51< wesnoth-discord-> acquire hidden items on HTTT? 20170813 23:16:55< wesnoth-discord-> 😅 20170813 23:16:57< wesnoth-discord-> This is dumb 20170813 23:17:00< wesnoth-discord-> the game is way too big 20170813 23:17:11< wesnoth-discord-> beat all campaigns takes hundreds of hours 20170813 23:17:20< wesnoth-discord-> master 1v1 and 2v2 takes another hundreds 20170813 23:17:36< wesnoth-discord-> if there will be achievements, there could add hundreds of those 20170813 23:20:25< shadowm> celticminstrel: I always assumed it was because the author wanted to make a statement on achievements. 20170813 23:20:33< wesnoth-discord-> every little thing doesn't need to be an achievement 20170813 23:20:39< shadowm> Since the stars themselves do-you-know-what. 20170813 23:24:30< wesnoth-discord-> but they can be a good way to keep people interested, explore parts of a map they might not've anotherwise, etc 20170813 23:30:07< aeth> celticminstrel: I have never seen a release on Steam without achievements that wasn't a rerelease of a 90s game, and even many of those (e.g. AoE II HD) add achievements. 20170813 23:30:38< aeth> celticminstrel: Braid has stars? 20170813 23:30:39< celticminstrel> Well, maybe it was. 20170813 23:30:46< celticminstrel> aeth: Yup, they are very well-hidden. 20170813 23:31:34< aeth> That's what I mean about achievements pointing to hidden content 20170813 23:31:48< aeth> In the 2010s, if it isn't in an achievement, I don't even know it's there and won't go looking for it. 20170813 23:31:56< celticminstrel> Right. 20170813 23:32:11< aeth> That's by far the most important role of achievements. 20170813 23:32:18< aeth> People can spend a lot of time making hidden content no one sees. 20170813 23:32:37< celticminstrel> @Flameheart - Basically all of those could be achievements, yeah. There's no particular reason to keep the number of achievements low. 20170813 23:32:47< aeth> As for Wesnoth achivements, for SP it's pretty easy. Notable things + hidden things + beat each campaign + beat each campaign on hardest difficulty 20170813 23:32:56< celticminstrel> Yeah, pretty much. 20170813 23:33:01< aeth> For MP, it'd probably have to be counter-based like win 10 times 20170813 23:33:13< aeth> win 10 times as Undead, win 10 times vs Undead, etc. 20170813 23:33:31< celticminstrel> Maybe some special ones for Dark Forecast or A New Land. 20170813 23:33:36< aeth> yeah 20170813 23:33:44< celticminstrel> Or others with unconventional mechanics, not sure if there are any. 20170813 23:33:45< aeth> Every non-vanilla MP thing needs its own achievements 20170813 23:33:52< aeth> That's why add-ons should be able to add (non-Steam) achievements 20170813 23:34:11< celticminstrel> Right, if we have achievements, add-ons should definitely be able to add them. 20170813 23:34:33< aeth> For SP campaigns, you should just autogen "complete" and "complete on hardest difficulty" unless there's only one difficulty, in which case no latter. After that, it's up to the author, too. 20170813 23:35:22< celticminstrel> Oh, for custom SP campaigns, sure. 20170813 23:35:44< aeth> And for MP/SP it'd be things like "get a unit to the max level, get a unit to level 4, etc" 20170813 23:35:57< aeth> That sort of thing would generally be easier on SP but no reason not to also include it in MP 20170813 23:36:07< aeth> Although some would probably have to be restricted to vanilla MP 20170813 23:37:35< aeth> As for strange/notable achievements, definitely include the one where you have to beat HttT while only recruiting Elvish Shamans. It's totally doable, since you get enough loyal free units to recall to balance out weaknesses. 20170813 23:37:57< aeth> I got about 2/3 of the way through that challenge until I got bored. Probably should've done it on max difficulty to avoid boredom 20170813 23:38:16< aeth> Because the trick is that you can recall the OP shaman promotions and the free units 20170813 23:46:34-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 23:46:36< celticminstrel> Is it a problem that you could cheat any achievement just by editing the campaign's source code or something similar? 20170813 23:47:34< aeth> for mainline campaigns, you could (1) limit save/loading in various ways (such as an ironman mode that autosaves and only autosaves), (2) hash the campaign's source and only count toward an achievement if it matches, (3) disable with console commands, etc. 20170813 23:47:40< aeth> Save *editing* might be an issue still. 20170813 23:48:02< celticminstrel> Oh, (2) seems good to me. 20170813 23:49:00< celticminstrel> Though I think it might be harder than it sounds. 20170813 23:49:11< aeth> One way to avoid save editing would be to encrypt the autosaves based on a key generated serverside in order for it to count for achievements but that would require online for SP (since any local key could be retrieved) and it wouldn't be bulletproof 20170813 23:49:29< celticminstrel> And it'd still be cheatable, but there's no need to make it bulletproof really. 20170813 23:49:47< aeth> well, no real way to make it not cheatable, just make it hard enough that most people won't cheat 20170813 23:49:52< celticminstrel> Yeah. 20170813 23:50:07< aeth> Especially in a GPLed game, it's not really possible without relying on servers, and even then there would be some tough workarounds with a custom client 20170813 23:50:44< aeth> You can prevent most MP achievemnt cheating, though, by requiring the game to finish without an OOS for achievements to count (but this would require adding some resign option) 20170813 23:50:49< celticminstrel> In any case, the fact that no-one has actually put any time into making an achievement system for Wesnoth tells me that it's not going to make it into 1.14. It'll have to be a "coming later" thing for 1.16 (or 2.0 if we decided to bump the major version). 20170813 23:50:53< aeth> Almost all MP cheating is going to result in an OOS 20170813 23:51:05< celticminstrel> True. 20170813 23:51:28< aeth> celticminstrel: An achievement system should be trivial to add to a well-architectured game. Of course, Wesnoth isn't well-architectured so... :-p 20170813 23:51:33< celticminstrel> Though debug commands might be synched now? But you could also make the game not register any achievements after a debug command has been used. 20170813 23:51:46< wesnoth-discord-> The burns are so bad Wesnoth will never make it out of the hospital at this rate. 20170813 23:51:47< celticminstrel> I don't think it would be super-difficult to add to Wesnoth even though it's not that well-architectured. 20170813 23:51:56< aeth> yeah, just say "achievements disabled" when a console command is used 20170813 23:52:02< aeth> and have it taint the save 20170813 23:52:05< celticminstrel> But no-one has actually shown interest in getting it done. 20170813 23:52:15< aeth> (of course, that can be cheated with save editing by fliping the tainted save bit) 20170813 23:52:53< aeth> I think the real issue is that a poorly implemented achievemnt system (i.e. overlooks too many of these issues) is going to make achievemnets meaningless because people will cheat them 20170813 23:53:03< aeth> you can't really then roll it back 20170813 23:53:56< celticminstrel> True. 20170813 23:54:04< aeth> I think, just to launch the achievements system, the first step would be to do the beat the campaign and beat it on hardest achievements first. I think Wesnoth already tracks beating campaigns. 20170813 23:54:20< celticminstrel> It does indeed. It also tracks which difficulties you beat them on. 20170813 23:54:25< aeth> Then you have an achievement system and you just need to add more trigger. 20170813 23:54:39< DeFender1031> ugh 20170813 23:54:43< aeth> You would just need to add any possible additional restrictions, if desired even. 20170813 23:54:52< aeth> s/more trigger/more triggers/ 20170813 23:55:04< aeth> You don't need an ironman mode, you don't need to restrict saveloading, etc. 20170813 23:55:08< aeth> Not every game does. 20170813 23:55:33< aeth> The only thing you'd absolutely need to do is restrict console commands, and if you don't care about save editing, just put a cheats_used = false field in the save file 20170813 23:55:56< aeth> If you're not going to come up with measures to circumvent save editing, people who really care are going to edit saves anyway, so that field is good enough 20170813 23:56:18< aeth> i.e. not much difference between them editing in 10000000 gold and them cheating and then setting that field to false. 20170813 23:57:02< aeth> add a UI, add integration with Steam (if/when it's added), an add a cheats_used = false, and now you have the first SP achievements, using the completion tracker. 20170813 23:57:12< aeth> You would only need an achievement event tracker for the rest 20170813 23:57:24< aeth> s/an add/and add/ 20170813 23:58:11< aeth> That's if you're not going to circumvent save editing and reloading. And the only thing MP achievements really need to do is exclude custom MP content (but later permit them to add their own achievements) 20170813 23:58:24-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170813 23:59:22< aeth> The campaign completion achievements could be a trial for a larger achievement system, with some accomplishment achievements (e.g. max out a unit, get a level 5 unit that's not Delfador, etc.), some easter egg achievements, and some MP and SP/MP counter achievements (win 10 times, kill 100 units etc.) 20170813 23:59:44< aeth> Since the former could be in by 1.14, and the latter would need some more thought, especially to allow campaigns/scenarios/etc. to add custom achievements. --- Log closed Mon Aug 14 00:00:18 2017