--- Log opened Thu Sep 07 00:00:43 2017
20170907 00:03:02< mattsc> BBL.
20170907 00:03:17-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.]
20170907 00:08:00< irker540> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 0f4f1e950952 / doc/man/wesnoth.6: manpage: spelling adjustment https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0f4f1e950952b53f0354b8c9e4fc6e5f53d4d883
20170907 00:08:02< irker540> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master c338d6788a5b / data/core/units/ (elves/Champion.cfg humans/Loyalist_Pikeman.cfg): two cases of cut portraits https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c338d6788a5b33447d05280fb6f3e7cee4363d83
20170907 00:29:42< sevu> bye
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20170907 00:32:08< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#14913 (master - b95c999 : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build has errored.
20170907 00:32:08< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/272569843
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20170907 01:13:33< mattsc> DeFender1031: I just noticed … when I was talking about something maybe not being “truncated” correctly, I didn’t mean a numerical value in a calculation.
20170907 01:13:51< mattsc> I meant one of the loops or the like in the simulation of the attack.
20170907 01:14:36< mattsc> The difference is much too large to be a round-off error.
20170907 01:14:38< DeFender1031> I understood that. That's what I was referring to as well.
20170907 01:14:52< mattsc> Okay, cool.  Just wanted to make sure.
20170907 01:15:08< DeFender1031> And much too small to be forgetting that the other unit might die.
20170907 01:15:19< mattsc> Right.
20170907 01:15:40< DeFender1031> so if it IS a truncation, it's not a simple one.
20170907 01:15:47< DeFender1031> er
20170907 01:15:52< DeFender1031> a missing truncation
20170907 01:16:01< DeFender1031> meaning, not ALL battle sim truncation is missing.
20170907 01:16:31< DeFender1031> if anything, a truncation is missing in one possible outcome out of however many there actually are in that situation
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20170907 02:32:12< Necrosporus> Why removing cut portraits?
20170907 02:32:36< celticminstrel> ?
20170907 02:40:44< Necrosporus> mattsc, probability that you hit from first time is 0.6, probablity that you miss is 0.4, probablity that you miss first hit, opponent misses too and you hit is 0.4*0.4*0.6=.096, and finally probability that you both miss two times is .4^4=.0256 which sum up to 0.7216
20170907 02:44:38< Necrosporus> And probability that opponent hits you on first strike is .4*.6, on second strike it is .4*.4*.4*.6, which sums up to .2784
20170907 02:46:19< Necrosporus> Anyway there's option now to use monte-carlo to probability calculation
20170907 02:46:25< Necrosporus> maybe it's in effect somehow?
20170907 02:51:52< Necrosporus> Mandatory widget 'addons' hasn't been defined. When reporting the bug please include the following error message: Condition '!must_exist || result' failed at src/gui/auxiliary/find_widget.hpp:74 in function 'find_widget'.
20170907 02:52:21< Necrosporus> Happens if you try to install or remove addon from its info page
20170907 02:52:45< Necrosporus> Perhaps I should retest with never commits
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20170907 02:55:33< mattsc> Necrosporus: yeah, I know how the maths works.  That doesn’t answer my question though.
20170907 02:57:34< Necrosporus> Yeah, it's weird that values are different
20170907 02:57:55< Necrosporus> Ones in Expected battle result seem to be more exact, I guess
20170907 03:00:10< mattsc> My guess is still that there’s a bug in the unscathed chance calculation.  I’m just going to wait a little to see if somebody knows of something I’m not thinking of before looking into it.
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20170907 04:04:41< Necrosporus> So grep says that unscathed value is printed from "untouched" variable multiplied by 100 somewhere there https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/src/attack_prediction.cpp
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20170907 04:05:24< Necrosporus> Also you might want unscathed value if other unit has slow, poison, pertrifying and so on
20170907 04:06:40< Necrosporus> It should display chance unit won't get hit at all (not that it has same HP) and thus will both have same HP and not affected by specials
20170907 04:07:07< Necrosporus> Which chance that unit has same HP but maybe got hit and then drained will be different thing
20170907 04:14:10< JyrkiVesterinen> mattsc: I'm the attack prediction code maintainer, and indeed, the original HP and staying unscathed should have the same probability.
20170907 04:14:55< JyrkiVesterinen> And the code uses straight calculations. Simulating battles occurs only in extremely complex cases (and your example isn't one).
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20170907 04:20:29< mattsc> JyrkiVesterinen: with “simulating” I meant going through all options of the hit/counterhit sequence and adding up the probability, as opposed to using analytical equations.
20170907 04:20:38< Necrosporus> By the way I have found another weirdness
20170907 04:20:51< mattsc> I thought the latter was only done when neither unit can die, using binomial coeeficients.
20170907 04:21:04< Necrosporus> mattsc, what is analythical equation then?
20170907 04:21:48< Necrosporus> Defender resistance vs pierce x1.1
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20170907 04:21:53< JyrkiVesterinen_> Oh. Indeed, the default way goes throught the entire sequence and calculates the probabilities incrementally.
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20170907 04:22:03< Necrosporus> Attacker vulnerability vs pierce x1.1
20170907 04:22:03< mattsc> For example, if neither unit can die, the chance to end up with the HP corresponding to 2 hits is: (2 3) p^2 q^1
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20170907 04:22:30< mattsc> Where p is chance of hit and q = 1 - p
20170907 04:22:46< mattsc> I might have the factor in front the wrong way around ...
20170907 04:23:12< mattsc> JyrkiVesterinen: okay, that’s what I meant then.  Sorry, “simulating” is probably the wrong word there.
20170907 04:23:48< Necrosporus> So, I have tried khayal vs khayal to see if matts' bug is reproducible in simpler case
20170907 04:24:04< Necrosporus> But in this case unscathed damage is same as in display
20170907 04:24:20< Necrosporus> But there are different strings to describe same thing, which is weird
20170907 04:24:42< mattsc> JyrkiVesterinen: so, in the simple case I used, the unscathed chance and original HP should be the same then, right?
20170907 04:24:51< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes.
20170907 04:25:10< mattsc> Okay.  Since you’re the maintainer, are you in a position to look into it?
20170907 04:25:23< mattsc> I have never (almost) looked at that code before.
20170907 04:25:42< mattsc> I did have a quick look at it probably 5 years ago just to see how it works in principle.
20170907 04:27:49< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes, I can look into it later this week.
20170907 04:28:29< mattsc> JyrkiVesterinen: Thanks.  Let me know if I can help with anything.
20170907 04:29:01< mattsc> Necrosporus: how is the Khaiyal case simpler?  Because it’s only one hit?
20170907 04:29:14< Necrosporus> Yes
20170907 04:29:18< mattsc> I tried that too (with peasants).
20170907 04:29:25< Necrosporus> I'm trying khayal vs grunt
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20170907 04:30:15< JyrkiVesterinen> That's a good hint, then. There is a separate code path for one-hit battles.
20170907 04:30:27< mattsc> In the cases I tried, it only gave a difference when the attacker has two strikes and the defender can die from a single strike.
20170907 04:30:44< Necrosporus> Why does it always says "Attacker vulnerability vs *", but Defender can get "resistance" or "vulnerability" depending on its value below or above 1.0?
20170907 04:30:58< mattsc> Even two strikes each, but needing 2 hits to kill gave the same number.
20170907 04:31:03< mattsc> I did not try with more than two.
20170907 04:34:51< Necrosporus> mattsc, I reproduced your issue with a Khayal attacking grunt 
20170907 04:35:25< Necrosporus> Khayal chance to hit is 60%, and the grunt is dead
20170907 04:35:50< Necrosporus> Chance of being unscathed is displayed as 57.8%
20170907 04:36:46< Necrosporus> Which chance that Khayal retains his health is .6+.4*.4*.4 (khayal misses and grunt misses both times)
20170907 04:37:41< Necrosporus> 66.4% which is displayed correctly in below diagram
20170907 04:39:01< mattsc> Yes, confirmed (both that the 66.4% is the correct value and that the unscathed % is wrong).
20170907 04:39:25< mattsc> Sounds like JyrkiVesterinen has enough to work with now.
20170907 04:40:06< JyrkiVesterinen> Sounds like it's perfectly reproducible.
20170907 04:40:22< JyrkiVesterinen> So, I can investigate in a debugger what exactly is going on.
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20170907 04:44:50< mattsc> JyrkiVesterinen: not sure if this is useful information, but I just did one more test and it works correctly in 1.8 and 1.10, and not in 1.12 and 1.13.
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20170907 04:53:06< mattsc> Working in 1.10.6, broken in 1.11.2.
20170907 04:53:19< mattsc> That’s the closest I can get with what I have available right now.
20170907 05:07:16< fabi_> hi mattsc
20170907 05:12:35< mattsc> hi fabi_ 
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20170907 07:13:55< Necrosporus> I get min(list) list is empty errors in MP campaign
20170907 07:14:01< Necrosporus> it doesn't change the gamplay though
20170907 07:15:10< Necrosporus> Also I got illegal whiteboard data error coming from other player
20170907 07:15:14< Necrosporus> both running master
20170907 07:15:25< Necrosporus> several commits behind though
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20170907 08:40:50< Necrosporus> There are lags in multiplayer now
20170907 08:54:57< Necrosporus> Dwarves did trigger on pass-through
20170907 08:55:23< Necrosporus> even if I didn't click on land my unit moved through a hex of it and it still made dwarves hostile
20170907 08:55:26< Necrosporus> Is it normal?
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20170907 10:36:41< Necrosporus> Something weird happens when Kalenz dies in first scenario after it loyal unit and Velens
20170907 10:36:45< Necrosporus> In dualogue
20170907 10:38:00< Necrosporus> * Velon
20170907 10:41:24< Necrosporus> Kalenz says "I am defeated, Now the orcs will destroy us"
20170907 10:41:55< Necrosporus> Then he says "I grieve that I have failed you, my lord Kalenz"
20170907 10:42:21< Necrosporus> Then "Farewell Kalenz, your loyal service won't be forgotten"
20170907 10:42:55< Necrosporus> Kalenz loyal elf dies before him too
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20170907 10:52:01< irker234> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 835731f08308 / doc/man/wesnoth.6: manpage: remove some cases of double whitespaces (if an . was followed by an lin https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/835731f0830854426d64adf718e2ea465ef134db
20170907 10:59:18< Necrosporus>         [filter_wml]
20170907 10:59:18< Necrosporus>             upkeep="loyal"
20170907 10:59:18< Necrosporus>         [/filter_wml]
20170907 10:59:38< Necrosporus> The problem is that Kalenz is itself loyal
20170907 10:59:52< Necrosporus> Which makes him say this stuff to himself when he dies
20170907 11:00:07< Necrosporus> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/deaths.cfg#L113
20170907 11:01:46< Necrosporus> What is reason for this? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/utils/characters.cfg#L41
20170907 11:04:43< Necrosporus> zookeeper, do you know what is the point to have Kalenz loyal if he can_recruit anyway and thus automatically has zero upkeep?
20170907 11:05:15< Necrosporus> Anyway either Kalenz loyal trait should be removed or filter on death adjusted to exclude him
20170907 11:09:54< zookeeper> there is no point, unless he shows up as a non-leader at some point (which i doubt).
20170907 11:10:11< Necrosporus> I didn't go that far
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20170907 11:17:03< Necrosporus> zookeeper, so should we remove loyal trait from Kalenz?
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20170907 11:28:04< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, hello. I have played LoW and found two problems in there
20170907 11:28:43< Necrosporus> One is that ingame chat (but not console) is flooded with  min(list) list is empty errors from time to time, usually on enemy turn
20170907 11:29:05< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes, I saw your messages.
20170907 11:29:16< JyrkiVesterinen> The channel has public logs and I read them.
20170907 11:29:36< Necrosporus> Then you know what second is about
20170907 11:29:55< JyrkiVesterinen> And no need to talk about campaign problems to me. They aren't my area. I focus on the engine C++ code.
20170907 11:30:14< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes, the second problem was Kalenz talking about his own death.
20170907 11:31:57< Necrosporus> Third problem was game freezing from time to time. Such as I end my turn but partner doesn't get village healing and stuff immediately, it happens after several seconds or even minute 
20170907 11:32:11< Necrosporus> And moves do not appear to me immediately
20170907 11:32:30< JyrkiVesterinen> gfgtdf might know something about that, he's the multiplayer expert.
20170907 11:32:53< Necrosporus> Not really hardcore freezing, such as interface and scrolling still works
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20170907 12:11:55< zookeeper> fabi_, any particular reason for so many canrecruit=yes units to have the loyal trait in LoW?
20170907 12:17:31< zookeeper> good grief, there are DEBUG_MSG's that are not commented out
20170907 12:19:33< irker234> wesnoth: ln-zookeeper wesnoth:master f647951fbd97 / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/scenarios/chapter1/03_Kalian_under_Attack.cfg: LoW S03: Commented out a DEBUG_MSG https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f647951fbd97022c9c0f9b42b89037eb33411aaa
20170907 12:19:41< zookeeper> (no, this doesn't mean i'm going to start working on LoW)
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20170907 12:23:33< zookeeper> also the victory dialogs call me "zookeeper" and "zookeeper" instead of kalenz or landar or whoever it should be.
20170907 12:31:25< sevu> debug messages in the code? no good
20170907 12:50:48< sevu> Maybe somebody from the umc folks would be willing to work on it. I guess a call for help in the forums would be good. 
20170907 13:11:32< irker234> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 3ca1150cbc16 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: tutorial: clear the text already at turn end https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3ca1150cbc1662153a95cbfff33680ac8c992e3e
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20170907 13:46:39< fabi_> zookeeper: yes, the loyal trait is important for the mp campaign mode.
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20170907 13:55:54< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#14915 (master - f647951 : ln-zookeeper): The build has errored.
20170907 13:55:54< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/272873202
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20170907 14:01:39< gfgtdf> 20170907 11:31:57< Necrosporus> Third problem was game freezing from time to time. Such as I end my turn but partner doesn't get village healing and 
20170907 14:01:59< fabi_> Has anyone seen iceiceice lately?
20170907 14:03:15< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: this coudl be expected, when you end your turn but your partner didn't  start his turn yet (for example becasue a dialgo pen that lblocks networks processing), the game is stuck in a 'between the turns' state while it'S waiting for your partner to start his turn 
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20170907 14:05:32< gfgtdf> fabi_: no, you can probable ping him on github if you have a question.
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20170907 14:06:21< fabi_> gfgtdf: Thank you.
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20170907 14:31:29< DeFender1031> fabi_, why is the loyal trait imporatant?
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20170907 14:46:17< vultraz_iOS> fabi_: iceiceice has left the project.
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20170907 15:09:01< DeFender1031> iceiceice didn't leave, just meltedmeltedmelted.
20170907 15:09:13< DeFender1031> (Sorry, that was terrible.)
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20170907 17:04:16< fabi_> DeFender1031: what happened to iceiceice?
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20170907 17:51:48< Necrosporus> fabi_ what loyal trait for Kalenz is for specifically?
20170907 18:11:54< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: are you tying to fix LoW ?
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20170907 18:31:50< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, LoW works much better than it did in time of 1.12.0, dialog issues is not as bad as unable to play at all because of desyncs, but there are small issues
20170907 18:33:11< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: LoW 1.12 was redicuilous, i have observed games where an an 'evil' Kaenz woudl appear at an dwarvish keep and starts recruiting undead.
20170907 18:33:26< gfgtdf> 1.12.0 i mean
20170907 18:33:46< gfgtdf> Kalenz*
20170907 18:34:18< Necrosporus> That sounds cool
20170907 18:35:02< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, well, if it was that way then it's almost perfect now, comparatively
20170907 18:35:22< Necrosporus> Still, what is the need for Kalenz to be loyal if he canrecruit=yes?
20170907 18:35:53< Necrosporus> My grep didn't show why it would be required
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20170907 18:36:16< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: well there were 2 bugs complined: 1) one where Kalnz was stored in one scenairo and unstored in another scnario where the player controls a idfferent side, 2) an bug where the engine would assign random mp factiosn recruitlist to ai sides.
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20170907 18:36:55< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: i have no idea maybe there is soem scnario that kills all unit except loyals or something ?
20170907 18:38:08< Necrosporus> Perhaps, my grepping didn't find anything like that
20170907 18:38:27< Necrosporus> Why do we need both trait loyal and loyal ring?
20170907 18:38:53< Necrosporus> I mean in general
20170907 18:39:28< gfgtdf> Necrosporus: well you see the ring also when the unit is not selected, but in other cases for example the unit overwiew you only see the text
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20170907 18:52:53< Necrosporus> South Guard on Easy looks ridiculous for me. Just three thugs is all I fight against, having 120 gold?
20170907 18:53:36< JyrkiVesterinen> It becomes harder later on. (I played on Normal, though.)
20170907 18:54:27< sevu> but that's really too easy... 
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20170907 19:00:03< Necrosporus> Well, perhaps it's fine for beginners who are lazy to even read tutorial?
20170907 19:00:08 * zookeeper managed to get gerrick killed on turn 5 by just moving units completely carelessly
20170907 19:00:47< Necrosporus> One thug can kill a peasant if all attacks land
20170907 19:00:53< Necrosporus> Especially at night
20170907 19:01:12< JyrkiVesterinen> IIRC, it doesn't take long to complete at all, so I think it's not exactly a problem. The player will soon move on to later, harder scenarios.
20170907 19:01:37< Necrosporus> I'm not saying it's a problem
20170907 19:02:13< Necrosporus> Though there is another problem, I have tried to play scenario 2 and did defeat the bandit before grabbing the keep of Westin
20170907 19:02:32< Necrosporus> There's is still dialogue that bandits recruited undead while they didn't
20170907 19:03:28< Necrosporus> I think such stuff will appear in many campaign if you try to play them in wrong order on purpose
20170907 19:03:52< Necrosporus> For example I have won 1st scenario without even getting Gerric
20170907 19:04:11< Necrosporus> I mean killed all outlaw
20170907 19:04:47< Necrosporus> I think that also it can easily be won on easy without recruiting at all
20170907 19:05:03< Necrosporus> There are just so many high-level loyal units
20170907 19:07:07< Necrosporus> Perhaps whole campaign can be won without recruiting
20170907 19:07:49< Necrosporus> You get 4 loyal peasants for free in second scenario
20170907 19:07:55< Necrosporus> If you level them all...
20170907 19:08:22< Necrosporus> I'm not saying that's bad
20170907 19:09:10< Necrosporus> I mean it was Civilian (beginner) difficulty
20170907 19:09:28< Necrosporus> Second difficulty is called easy
20170907 19:12:03< gfgtdf> did weactull fix the issue the was brought up in the forum at soem point of easy difficulcies beeing actually harder than normal later on since you cannot levelupp your troops earily?
20170907 19:12:48< zookeeper> not really, no.
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20170907 19:17:58< gfgtdf> fabi_: coudl you please elaboerate why local is needed on Kalenz, Necrosporus said i searched in the code and didn't find  anything.
20170907 19:18:51< gfgtdf> loyal*
20170907 19:29:03< Necrosporus> I have won first scenario without grabbing mermen with only initial lvl2 bowmen and pikeman and the leader himself
20170907 19:29:25< Necrosporus> Then after I won I have sent moran for Gerric
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20170907 19:44:10 * sevu let gerric die in round 6
20170907 19:58:06< Necrosporus> There's a little glitch at the end of 2th scenario
20170907 19:58:29< Necrosporus> bandit leader diasppears and reappears for a fraction of second when dies
20170907 19:59:46< Necrosporus> 2nd scenario finished without recruits 
20170907 20:06:06< DeFender1031> Necrosporus, most likely caused by wesnoth's inconsistent approach to when redraws are performed, an issue I've raised a few times, and which celmin has made some progress on but is still not entirely consistent.
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20170907 20:17:32< irker759> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesmere:develop 7c905381b039 / wesmere/ (mw/WesmereTemplate.php sass/mw/_ui.scss): mw: Assign an icon and toolbar dropdown menu for the Undelete action https://github.com/wesnoth/wesmere/commit/7c905381b0395ba211af0556e79b8461b5a93ff1
20170907 20:21:29< irker759> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesmere:develop 21854ab19b4f / static/docroot/index.php: home: Punctuation fix https://github.com/wesnoth/wesmere/commit/21854ab19b4f98dddc9c8371f93e43b7594b429d
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20170907 21:21:00< sevu> Necrosporus, 3rd Scenario finished without recruits. 
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20170907 22:17:31< zookeeper> humm. in master, [kill]ed units are drawn again after the animation and stay there until the next redraw.
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20170907 22:21:56< zookeeper> happens even before jyrki's changes, except that the unit only reappears briefly before automatically disappearing again. so the root cause is probably unrelated to the double redraw fix.
20170907 22:28:17< zookeeper> commenting out the redraw call from the [kill] implementation fixes it, but maybe that leads to redraw problems in some other usecases.
20170907 22:42:35< irker759> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master aac09417bff0 / data/core/units/fake/Fog_Clearer.cfg: UI: Fix loyal and aged traits missing from help (issue #1935) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/aac09417bff0240f90fd29d9fe0e037605a593d0
20170907 22:42:37< irker759> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master e5a14e3e0007 / changelog players_changelog: Update changelogs https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e5a14e3e0007ca1dd06eb9bdd02a00b64e3851c4
20170907 22:43:10< sigurdfd> you're a bit slow today, irker
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20170907 23:43:31< irker759> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 087cee69f9c6 / src/game_initialization/depcheck.cpp: Game Initialization/Depcheck: formatting cleanup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/087cee69f9c606a47ed6aa4665bb598d7206b218
20170907 23:43:34< irker759> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 84f861ddd121 / src/game_initialization/ (create_engine.cpp depcheck.cpp depcheck.hpp): Game Initialization: fixed a typo in a type name https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/84f861ddd121d821478a0b89991022834cab6423
20170907 23:43:37< irker759> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master afc58c3ba997 / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/mp_alerts_options.cpp: MP Alert Options: fix crash caused by e5b09de2c606 (fixes bug #1945) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/afc58c3ba9977cad9d2f79fbed374d8c794a92e6
20170907 23:43:40< irker759> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 8413788234ab / src/game_initialization/ (create_engine.cpp create_engine.hpp): Game Initialization/Create Engine: removed unused deprecated function https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8413788234abd30a7fd272fd96f66c21c5c1c033
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 08 00:00:44 2017