--- Log opened Mon Sep 11 00:00:48 2017
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20170911 01:58:36< Necrosporus> I have got a segfault with recent wesnoth master (not latest commit probably though),  https://pastebin.com/eP2q4r5H . Now I will try to rebuild with last commit and recheck
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20170911 02:04:32< vultraz_iOS> Necrosporus: fixed in latest
20170911 02:08:45< Necrosporus> True, after rebuild it doesnt reproduce anymore
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20170911 05:38:31< irker725> wesnoth: Alexander van Gessel wesnoth:master f86a4a77647a / src/ (display.cpp display.hpp): Display actual FPS (#1958) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f86a4a77647acfe86aa93078e5b6bff26b48bd4d
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20170911 06:13:39< AI0867> question, do we still have jenkins running on the server?
20170911 06:13:56< AI0867> If we do, I could set it up to submit a build to coverity every day
20170911 06:14:07< AI0867> (our budget is 14/week, 2/day)
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20170911 08:26:16< zookeeper> btw, if someone wants a really extremely obnoxious FPS benchmark map, then i think this is the worst i can come up with: https://gist.github.com/ln-zookeeper/0ac9f9af3e6326e7b924185524ff3104
20170911 08:26:46< zookeeper> not very pleasant to look at considering your screen will be full of windmills
20170911 08:27:40< JyrkiVesterinen> Personally I prefer realistic benchmark instead of artificial worst-case scenarios.
20170911 08:27:53< JyrkiVesterinen> *benchmarks
20170911 08:28:06< vultraz_iOS> Artificial worst-case scenarios are for when you're showing off how good your engine is :P
20170911 08:28:25< vultraz_iOS> see also: the Vulkan demo vid.
20170911 08:29:09< zookeeper> sure. but worst-case scenarios can still be helpful (or at least interesting) in gauging how much a given optimization helps things.
20170911 08:31:12< zookeeper> as in, if your optimization trick boosts even worst-case performance by 20% then you know you have something worthwhile :p
20170911 08:32:56< JyrkiVesterinen> It's just that attempting to optimize worst-case scenarios often ends up optimizing unimportant corner cases which only have a minor impact for actual gameplay.
20170911 08:33:30< JyrkiVesterinen> Testing in Dead Water showed that there are real maps which have almost the entire screen animated, and therefore optimizing animations is a good idea.
20170911 08:34:29< JyrkiVesterinen> Whereas trying to optimize something windmill specific would be just a waste of time.
20170911 08:34:32< zookeeper> well... if you're doing optimization, then you have to somewhat know what you're doing in the first place so i'd think you'd also know that the worst-case scenario isn't the main thing you should be looking at
20170911 08:34:49< JyrkiVesterinen> Of course.
20170911 08:35:49< JyrkiVesterinen> But there's not much point in looking at them ever. If you can reproduce performance issues in a real map, then you use it to find out what the problem is and measure how much (if any) you have improved.
20170911 08:36:11< zookeeper> so i'm just saying that i agree but i don't think there's much danger of anyone getting too boggled down in trying to optimize windmills-on-water specifically at the expense of real maps
20170911 08:36:12< JyrkiVesterinen> A benchmark scenario doesn't enter the picture at any point.
20170911 08:37:36< zookeeper> i dunno, i still like to have some rough idea of what the worst performance you can ever get (on my system) would be like
20170911 08:41:31< zookeeper> if someone wants to call it pointless curiosity then i'm fine with that :p
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20170911 09:47:16< Kwandulin> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&p=617177#p617177
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20170911 09:53:27< gfgtdf> 20170911 06:13:39< AI0867> question, do we still have jenkins running on the server?
20170911 09:53:58< gfgtdf> AI0867: yes we do and most of it's builds are also working, see http://baldras.wesnoth.org:8080/job/Wesnoth/
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20170911 10:11:25< vn971> Hi folks. How do I iterate all sides in WML? Any add-on code I can analyze/copy ?
20170911 10:18:39< zookeeper> [store_side] so that it stores each side, and then [for], [foreach], {FOREACH or whatever
20170911 10:20:11< zookeeper> the looping tags are reasonably straightforward and you can find a lot of examples of them in mainline campaigns
20170911 10:24:07< zookeeper> Kwandulin, good, good. there's a lot that can be elaborated on, but it's good to have some basics formalized
20170911 10:26:40< Kwandulin> A MP campaign would really be tasty, especially since the Steam release will probably get us another big influx of MP players
20170911 10:26:44< zookeeper> i just had a random idea: a MP campaign where each scenario is always essentially 1v1, and every time the losing player is dropped and a new player can take their place. so, basically, people join to try to dethrone the current winner, and if they succeed then in the next scenario they'll be challenged by a new player again.
20170911 10:27:45< Kwandulin> So essentially this cool last scenario from DiD?
20170911 10:27:57< zookeeper> not sure if it should just be random maps or something, or whether that form could be used for an actual story campaign too in some way.
20170911 10:28:30< zookeeper> Kwandulin, for the winner, i guess so? see how many times you can win until someone beats you. dunno how carryover would work to keep things balanced.
20170911 10:28:33< Aginor> zookeeper: you'd have to formulate it as some sort of ladder to keep overall interest
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20170911 10:28:46< Aginor> with having people play off for placement
20170911 10:28:53< zookeeper> Aginor, sure. keeping a scoreboard visible in-scenario wouldn't be hard
20170911 10:29:02< Aginor> nope, not at all
20170911 10:29:26< Aginor> and making the ladder is straightforward too, including working out the full draw
20170911 10:29:48< Aginor> plenty of pre-done draws for various sizes already, and it's not hard to work out on the fly
20170911 10:29:57< zookeeper> it could for example go on forever, until one player wins 3 in a row.
20170911 10:30:40< zookeeper> anyway, i just came up with that when reading the post, so haven't really figured out a lot of details yet :p
20170911 10:31:18< zookeeper> i doubt it'd currently be possible to boot the loser via WML/lua though
20170911 10:31:39< Aginor> nah, but you could always run it as a larger event
20170911 10:31:40< zookeeper> except maybe by crashing their client :>
20170911 10:31:55< Aginor> give them one map at a time, and tie in with it on the server side
20170911 10:32:28< Aginor> to get vultraz_iOS's attention, like the dota international thingie
20170911 10:32:37< vultraz_iOS> what?
20170911 10:32:42< zookeeper> i wasn't really thinking of it as a tournament event as such
20170911 10:33:45< gfgtdf> zookeeper: the time waiting for a new player could make it problematic, i think in people plaayers won't wait for a new player and just play it again with the same 2 players.
20170911 10:34:24< Aginor> not if you make it an event
20170911 10:34:36< Aginor> and have people sign up and be prepared
20170911 10:34:44< Aginor> fix games to timeslots too
20170911 10:35:07< zookeeper> gfgtdf, wouldn't need to wait if there are observers already. and if people know the scenario, they'd know that they need to join in even if as an observer, to have a chance to play next round.
20170911 10:35:55< zookeeper> i mean, i figured that if it was a story-less thing, then the maps could just be really small and fast so you could finish one round quickly and keep things rolling.
20170911 10:36:59< zookeeper> if each match takes 2 hours then you might as well just by keeping track of wins and losses outside the game.
20170911 10:37:07< zookeeper> +do +it
20170911 10:38:12< gfgtdf> zookeeper: wml cannot remove the player from the game, but it can make a side 'unassigned' at scenario trnasition so that mp mp staging dialog is shown, but nothgin stops the people from putting the same player in there
20170911 10:38:20< gfgtdf> the mp staging*
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20170911 11:06:26< zookeeper> another tournament'ish type of mini-campaign could be for example a 4p FFA where in each scenario one player loses and is dropped. but then that leads to the hated 3p FFA :]
20170911 11:07:33< Kwandulin> Anyway, regarding the MP campaign: if it's a story-driven MP campaign (and not some player-vs-player stuff) I'd be interested to help out with that. First we'd need to lock down, what is needed, though
20170911 11:07:44< zookeeper> hmmyeah
20170911 11:08:25< Kwandulin> Got some wesnoth-only time until mid october
20170911 11:08:54< zookeeper> 2p is the most obvious choice, but going for 3 would probably make it much harder to keep the players for the whole duration of the campaign.
20170911 11:09:19< zookeeper> s/but/and
20170911 11:09:26< zookeeper> ...even though it would be nice to have more than 2 players
20170911 11:10:39< zookeeper> it'd be nice if you could optionally have a third player, but implementing that (mostly balance-wise) might be too tricky
20170911 11:11:43< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i also think that having an optional player in a story driven campaign would be too hard.
20170911 11:12:28< Kwandulin> How is that even possible? Wouldnt that mess with the side numbers? I imagine player 1 and 2 are side 1 and 2. But what's with player 3, if that guy is optional? He cannot be side 3, because a side cannot be empty (for the case, when there is no third player). And putting him into side numer 6, 7, etc. sounds bad, too
20170911 11:12:59< zookeeper> i'll side-track just a little bit more before trying to return on-topic: maybe the third side could be a "reinforcements" side that the two main players could summon maybe once or twice during the campaign, and either control it themselves or give to a third player to have fun with.
20170911 11:13:21< zookeeper> Kwandulin, well sure a side can be empty? just have the side definition, but don't give that side any units.
20170911 11:13:34< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: a side can be empty, just add controller=null
20170911 11:13:44< Kwandulin> Ah, okay, I thought about leaving that tag
20170911 11:14:10< Kwandulin> And just having side=1,2,4 crashes, iirc
20170911 11:14:22< zookeeper> yeah, you can't have gaps in the side definitions
20170911 11:14:43< gfgtdf> zookeeper: a side that plays only sometimes wouldn'tbe fun for the player that controls that side.
20170911 11:16:52< zookeeper> gfgtdf, unless that person is someone who just wants to play 1-2 scenarios with the two main players, but not necessarily the whole campaign
20170911 11:18:32< zookeeper> even if the scenarios are short, a campaign will still take quite a while to complete, and it might be nice if the main players can actually let someone else join in for a while, even if in a limited way.
20170911 11:19:13< zookeeper> anyways, just a thought. i don't even know how hard it would be to do that (properly) without new features.
20170911 11:21:32< gfgtdf> zookeeper: also controlling 2 sies isn't that fun eigher, also remember that the problem of changing numbers of sides in LoW mp is exactly the reason why i suggested to add a new Mp campaign.
20170911 11:21:48< zookeeper> Kwandulin, if you want us to try to at least sketch out a full campaign, i'd suggest keeping the scenario count at about 4-5. unless they're very short and small.
20170911 11:22:12< zookeeper> gfgtdf, yeah, maybe so.
20170911 11:22:48< zookeeper> i'm not sure which one would usually be more convenient for a MP campaign, lots of small scenarios or fewer but bigger scenarios
20170911 11:24:08< Kwandulin> Yeah, a sketch of a full campaign would be nice. I'd first like to wait for some further responses in the thread, as I don't play MP that often
20170911 11:26:18< vn971> if I write an add-on mainly for 1.13, but I'd still want to support 1.12, what `foreach` thing should I choose? {FOREACH ?
20170911 11:26:38< vn971> I want to loop over an array
20170911 11:26:41< zookeeper> that should work similarly in both, yes
20170911 11:28:55< zookeeper> Kwandulin, one important decision to make before different story options can be considered is whether and how many different factions are allowed, or whether they're fixed.
20170911 11:29:05< vultraz_iOS> Not much point writing it for 1.12 at this point
20170911 11:29:25< zookeeper> unless you write and release it quickly
20170911 11:30:24< vultraz_iOS> True
20170911 11:30:26< Kwandulin> I'd love a dwarf+elf campaign
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20170911 11:32:45< vn971> vultraz_iOS: it's the default on wesnoth server, right? If it is and will be in the following months, as an addon writer, I'd prefer to get fast feedback..
20170911 11:32:58< vn971> vultraz_iOS: presuming I will get any feedback at all of course.:D
20170911 11:34:04< vultraz_iOS> Default, yes.
20170911 11:34:06< Kwandulin> Oh, and I imagine that the factions are fixed in a story driven MP campaign.
20170911 11:34:27< zookeeper> Kwandulin, with that combo i'd definitely suggest pre-TRoW. an undetailed time period in the almost-ancient past, lots of room for big epic long-forgotten stuff if necessary.
20170911 11:35:51< zookeeper> (plus i've always liked that "war against those things that live in the dark" hook in TRoW)
20170911 11:36:36< Kwandulin> So the only possible enemy would be undead, and elves usually don't work so well against them. Guess that'd favor the dwarves too much
20170911 11:36:52< zookeeper> well, not much undead pre-TRoW, supposedly
20170911 11:37:29< Kwandulin> Ah, right, Jevy came a bit later
20170911 11:37:39< Kwandulin> And no orcs and no humans
20170911 11:37:49< Kwandulin> What's left to fight against? :<
20170911 11:37:50< zookeeper> as enemies i guess there would mostly be minor races; trolls, saurians, etc. so yeah, maybe a bit limited in that sense.
20170911 11:38:00< zookeeper> and of course monsters
20170911 11:38:03< zookeeper> lots of monsters!
20170911 11:38:35< zookeeper> maybe fighting other dwarves and elves could be possible
20170911 11:39:13< zookeeper> deep elves? :x
20170911 11:40:43< Kwandulin> Right, they certainly exist then already
20170911 11:41:15< zookeeper> drakes, possibly
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20170911 11:43:57< Kwandulin> Yeah, drakes sound good as an enemy
20170911 11:44:15< zookeeper> fun for both dwarves and elves to poke
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20170911 11:46:28< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master f59e721aaae3 / src/ (game_initialization/create_engine.cpp units/animation.cpp): Use bool instead of string in config attribute assignment when possible https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f59e721aaae3ed8114d0c6398e4f1d9a8eee2d49
20170911 11:46:29< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 903ff3154ebd / src/gui/widgets/ (generator.hpp pane.hpp): GUI2: removed some duplicate string_map typedefs https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/903ff3154ebd9ec9ad3b74a6d6613610b617f415
20170911 11:46:30< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master a2ef0098f2ff / src/ (game_initialization/create_engine.cpp gui/dialogs/campaign_selection.cpp): Refactor recording of completed difficulties https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a2ef0098f2ff85c28ef7de6936f31327bf7add48
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20170911 11:50:54< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: note that LoW mp is already a elf+dwarf campaign, so unless you inted to replace LoW mp i think using diffent factiosn woudl be better
20170911 11:50:58< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0fef006c6684 / data/ (core/images/misc/laurel-gold.png core/images/misc/laurel.png game_config.cfg): Revert gold laurel name change from 74cff96475 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0fef006c6684c927fce8b6b92db150958805b5a1
20170911 11:52:30< Kwandulin> Mh, right . . . let me brainstorm a bit more
20170911 11:53:23< vultraz_iOS> zookeeper: see, even I sometimes object to unnecessarily breaking things :P
20170911 11:53:45< zookeeper> \o/
20170911 11:54:02< JyrkiVesterinen> ...why only sometimes? Shouldn't you *always* object if things are broken for no reason?
20170911 11:54:22< JyrkiVesterinen> (Picking at the fact that you left "unnecessary" in.)
20170911 11:54:37< JyrkiVesterinen> ;)
20170911 11:55:38< vultraz_iOS> good point
20170911 11:56:09< zookeeper> Kwandulin, maybe knalgans? that is, dwarves+outlaws/peasants
20170911 11:57:03< zookeeper> can supplant the latter with some extras so they're not just the crappy outlaws
20170911 11:57:37< zookeeper> and by supplant i meant supplement
20170911 11:58:41< Kwandulin> That also sounds good. Would certainly offer enough space for cool stuff
20170911 11:59:28< zookeeper> then there's always orcs+undead
20170911 12:03:54< Kwandulin> Can we continue talking about this this evening?
20170911 12:08:52< vn971> How do I do basic math in wml? Like this:  village_gold="(2+2)"
20170911 12:11:07< vultraz_iOS> village_gold="$(2+2)"
20170911 12:11:10< vultraz_iOS> IIRC
20170911 12:11:44< gfgtdf> which onyl works inevaulated contexts, in particular not in [side]
20170911 12:12:12< vultraz_iOS> I still think we should allow formulas everywhere eventually
20170911 12:12:19< gfgtdf> at least i wouldn't count on it, it's better to use [modify_side]
20170911 12:13:31< zookeeper> Kwandulin, uh, sure
20170911 12:14:05< zookeeper> at least if your evening is the same as my evening
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20170911 12:14:33< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: i can also help you with the implementation if you have questions about mp coding in general.
20170911 12:24:35< Kwandulin> Uh, yes, european evening I guess
20170911 12:26:13< vn971> vultraz_iOS: thank you, it works.
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20170911 14:30:38< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master cba7493494e4 / src/gui/ (6 files in 3 dirs): GUI2/Tree View Node: store child nodes in a vector of unique_ptrs instead of boo https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/cba7493494e41284ed360dbb3898ca22f8499432
20170911 14:30:41< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0427e282ce05 / src/gui/ (5 files in 3 dirs): GUI2: use MODIFIED events to handled multimenu button callbacks https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0427e282ce05ffcd1c3787be0f497d7eb804185c
20170911 14:30:44< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master edfa7cf203e5 / src/gui/dialogs/ (8 files in 3 dirs): GUI2/Dialogs: made use of modal_dialog::get_window over class member window poin https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/edfa7cf203e54ddccfd1a637479a005a66aa4135
20170911 14:30:47< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 4edb4e81146b / src/gui/dialogs/campaign_selection.cpp: GUI2/Campaign Selection: some formatting cleanup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4edb4e81146b607026ff95f270564ec3daf1d3dc
20170911 14:30:50< irker111> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 913500aba442 / src/gui/widgets/ (tree_view_node.cpp tree_view_node.hpp): GUI2/Tree View Node: removed ill-conceived node callback interface https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/913500aba4425d403be24e2e104a2f0e86fdf5d7
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20170911 14:40:25< vultraz_iOS> oops, i forgot to finish the commit message for cba7493494e4 ..
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20170911 15:43:17< DeFender1031> vultraz_iOS, did you? I thought it was just clear that you'd decided that a unique pointer vector is a better container for nodes than the ghosts from mario are. Seems 100% reasonable to me...
20170911 15:46:42< Kwandulin> zookeeper: I'd rather keep the deep elves for my UMC stuff. Orcs+undead as playable factions sound great, though, as they don't pop up too often as a playable faction. I also have this cool Thrall line from sleepwalker laying around her somewhere - to spice things if necessary
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20170911 15:50:12< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: you can also temporarily change factions during the campaign, if for example for story reasons, player2 doesn't participate in a certain scenario  you can make that player in that scenario control a 'local' helper force with a different faction.
20170911 15:51:20< Kwandulin> gfgtdf: wouldn't that favor the player that keeps his faction and recruits? He then has more time to level up his troops
20170911 15:52:42< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: this is a coop campaign, so it probably doesnt matter that much, also you you can compensate otherwise, liek giving the oter player a loyal unit/item in the next scenario.
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20170911 15:53:22< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: also what i suggested above was just for that scenario, player2 will again control his original  army at later scnarios.
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20170911 15:53:32< Kwandulin> Right
20170911 15:55:50< gfgtdf> vultraz_iOS: vector<unique_ptr> is usually better (iirc ptr_vector doesn't even have a move constructor), currently the only advantage of ptr_vector is that you don't have to write things like "(*itor)->get_best_size();"
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20170911 16:19:32< DeFender1031> C++ should really have "-->" for a double dereference member. (And "--->" for triple, etc.)
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20170911 16:19:44< DeFender1031> oh, actually, that wouldn't work
20170911 16:20:06< DeFender1031> would be ambiguous with "--" followed by ">"
20170911 16:21:17< zookeeper> Kwandulin, gameplay-wise orcs+undead would probably be nice, but it's probably hard to come up with an interesting story. or maybe i think that simply because of how 99% of undead/orc encounters usually are like...
20170911 16:23:00< Kwandulin> Uhh, how are they?
20170911 16:23:44< zookeeper> "we are evil and we gonna kill you!"? :p
20170911 16:24:44< zookeeper> not a lot of nuance or compelling villainy
20170911 16:35:11< zookeeper> anyway, i'm not saying it's impossible, but it's maybe a bit trickier to make a good story for an orc+undead co-op especially if/when they shouldn't be very adversarial towards each other. i have trouble thinking of anything beyond teaming up to pillage and plunder because that's just what they do.
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20170911 16:37:01< Kwandulin> Dunno. Maybe the orcs could be in the defensive position this time, e.g. Barag Gor is attacked or some ancient shaman stuff/staff has been stolen. Maybe during the time of the colonization of the Northlands. The weakened orcs could then search for the help of the undead. Maybe there is a lich in the far north, that once was a "general" of Jevyan and took care of the Northlands, but who ended up getting petrif
20170911 16:37:01< Kwandulin> rthernmost icelands? The orcs could then reawake that Lich (player 2) and somewhat re-establish the former undead-orc-teamup of the time of Jevyan's reign
20170911 16:37:38< zookeeper> cut off at "getting petrif"
20170911 16:38:21< Kwandulin> fied/frozen in the northernmost icelands? The orcs could then reawake that Lich (player 2) and somewhat re-establish the former undead-orc-teamup of the time of Jevyan's reign
20170911 16:39:01< Kwandulin> That invasion/counter-attack theme is already used so often, though . . .
20170911 16:39:47< zookeeper> "we must flee our homes and seek help"? :P yeah...
20170911 16:40:51< zookeeper> ok, how about this:
20170911 16:41:37< zookeeper> the orcs have settled the far north at some point, obviously, since by the time of SotBE most of it seems to be orcish territory
20170911 16:41:58< zookeeper> but it's pretty unclear what the timeline for that is
20170911 16:42:30< zookeeper> probably they were driven there after the first wars
20170911 16:42:50< zookeeper> and you could very well have some jevyan's general(s) still lurking about
20170911 16:44:38< zookeeper> so, you could have it be less about "we must flee our homes" and more like conquering a nice pristine land
20170911 16:45:14< Kwandulin> Right, maybe on a bit smaller scale: instead of a settlement, the orcs could be led by shamans who are in search of magical shrooms/ritual grounds/etc
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20170911 16:49:04< zookeeper> Kwandulin, sure. it's too bad you can't have the players fight in the end, though.
20170911 16:50:22< zookeeper> Kwandulin, actually, you could even have it involve the creation of the shamanistic tradition. maybe the orcs didn't come up with all that on their own but needed some, ahem, spiritual guidance from their allies.
20170911 16:51:25< Kwandulin> Would be cool. Maybe the frozen/petrified lich is talking to the shamans in their dreams and calling them or so
20170911 16:54:36< zookeeper> or if you wanted to get really adventurous, you could have the undead player character not be a human lich/necromancer, but an orcish shaman who picked up a few tricks :J
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20170911 16:58:47< Kwandulin> Not a big fan of everyone being able to do everything :<
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20170911 17:00:42< Kwandulin> Oh, if I have  two human controlled teams with the same team_name, they both appear under the label of the user_team_name of the first player in the lobby
20170911 17:01:19< Kwandulin> So, the undead guys are actually marked as "Orcs" because the first player is "Orcs"
20170911 17:01:27< Kwandulin> feels wrong
20170911 17:02:36< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: hmm maybe give them the same name? Iirc the user_tem_name is meant as a description of the team_name, so the engine probably suumes that they are the same is team_name is the same
20170911 17:03:30< Kwandulin> "Orcs and Undead" . . .
20170911 17:04:24< Kwandulin> Anyway, seems to be easier to set up a MP campaign than expected. The LoW code is not very nice, probably due to LoW being both sp and mp
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20170911 17:06:35< zookeeper> Kwandulin, well, i don't think it makes sense to have necromancy to be off-limits to any race that's able to do magic. it's just typically associated with humans, and i think it's good that even in mainline we already have elvish and dwarvish liches.
20170911 17:06:36< vn971> Another question about add-ons if you don't mind. How can I debug wml (or lua)? I tried to find articles on that, but couldn't find anything.
20170911 17:07:03< Kwandulin> Elvish liches?
20170911 17:07:10< zookeeper> Kwandulin, in TSG
20170911 17:07:11< vn971> print doesn't seem to work in lua, too, BTW :(
20170911 17:07:38< gfgtdf> vn971: print probably prints to wesnoths 'lua console'
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20170911 17:08:07< vn971> gfgtdf: maybe. It doesn't get to wesnoth terminal logs though.
20170911 17:08:17< irker111> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 8a7aa49718aa / src/halo.cpp: Fix #1563: graphical glitch when two halos touch https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8a7aa49718aac264d1eacf7f95bc7774a8dd6db8
20170911 17:08:20< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: i reccomdns not to develop for 1.12 here since there were quite some changes since 1.12, writign mp campaigns should also be easier on 1.13
20170911 17:08:45< Kwandulin> gfgtdf: Yes, I am on 1.13.8 (not on master, unfortunately)
20170911 17:08:46< zookeeper> vn971, you mean how does one usually write debug output? i just use DEBUG_MSG myself 90% of the time.
20170911 17:08:57< gfgtdf> vn971: open the lua consol (only possible in debug mode), check the preferences dialog to see which hotkey is used to open it.
20170911 17:09:10< Ravana_> I rely on [chat], wesnoth.message() and [inspect]
20170911 17:10:34< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: if you work on windows you can easiyl doanload a master wesnoth.exe form appveyor or jenkins.
20170911 17:10:54< vn971> wow, the lua console is awesome and instant to try out. I'll check other solutions, too, thank you very much!
20170911 17:11:07< zookeeper> Kwandulin, anyway, orcs+drakes would be another possibility while keeping the same theme. maybe drakes start migrating from morogor about the same time as the orcs start migrating north, so it could be a joint venture. they could plausibly get along, both having a very martial culture and all that.
20170911 17:12:03< zookeeper> although, i think the orcs+undead idea seems like it could have a more interesting story built around it
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20170911 17:13:19< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: wiritng a mp campaign _should_ be realyl easy: 1) write a campaign liek in sp, 2) add multiple controller=human sides to it, 3) be extra cautious fopr OOS erros, 4) add type=mp in [campaign], 5) call it a mp campaign. If this doesn't work its probably a bug.
20170911 17:15:20< Kwandulin> gfgtdf: I just hope that 1.13.9 gets released soon, up until then 1.13.8 should do fine (unless there were bigger MP changes?). Also is there a list of what to take care of regarding OOS errors?
20170911 17:15:59< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: hmm no there is a wiki page about OOS that explains it a bit, cannot realyl tell more.
20170911 17:16:27< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: one differe3nce is that in 1.13.9 you no longer ahve t think about the allow_new_game=yes/no attibute in [scenario]
20170911 17:16:32< gfgtdf> have*
20170911 17:16:43< Kwandulin> zookeeper: Trying to come up with a story outline these days
20170911 17:19:41< zookeeper> Kwandulin, okay, cool. feel free to ask for input at any point.
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20170911 17:39:12< Kwandulin> Mhh, I want to display the players' faction in the lobby as "Northeners" or "Undead". But if I place faction=Northerners in [side], then the recruit lists gets changed to the faction recruits. Is there a way to change the displayed faction name independently? (The actual faction is a slightly customized version of Northeners)
20170911 17:44:35< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: i don't think so the one possible way to archive that woudl be using the orignal factiosn and change the recruitlist in a prestart event, 
20170911 17:46:23< gfgtdf> Kwandulin: but it's quite possibel that mp staging shows you the recruitlist, and if you do that mp staging woudl show the playera  wrong recruitlist
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20170911 17:48:23< DeFender1031> "Northlanders"
20170911 17:49:34< DeFender1031> (Also, it bugs me how many things in wesnoth have reserved magic values like that.)
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20170911 17:53:34< sevu> A mp campaign with undead and orcs? Reminds me of the campaign on the green isle. 
20170911 17:54:15< DeFender1031> It also seems to me that it should be that "faction=Northerners" should only use the default list if you haven't explicitly specified some other list.
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20170911 18:12:02< vn971> and we have to go deeper, "wesnorthlanders"  (jk)
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20170911 18:48:20< vn971> So... I've finally created an add-on that I would like to publish. Whooray.) It's a simple one though, but maybe it'll be useful for someone.
20170911 19:06:16< DeFender1031> vn971, what is it?
20170911 19:06:37< vn971> DeFender1031: got caught by server.pbl now )))
20170911 19:06:47< DeFender1031> huh?
20170911 19:06:52< DeFender1031> I meant what is the add-on?
20170911 19:07:30< vn971> Ah, the add-on itself is a "modification", it just allows setting handicap in terms of "gold per village" rather than "base income".
20170911 19:08:15< DeFender1031> ah, cool.
20170911 19:08:18< vn971> in practice, it just sets "gold per village" = "base income", and that's it.
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20170911 19:20:28< sevu> How is the state of openmp?
20170911 19:20:41< sevu> Can it be enabled on released builds?
20170911 19:21:10< sevu> I'm considering on enabling it by default for 1.13.9 on archlinux
20170911 19:21:19< JyrkiVesterinen> OpenMP is still used in MSVC builds, and they seem to work fine.
20170911 19:21:47< vn971> Dome, I've published my first add-on.:) It's called "Gold per Village".
20170911 19:21:56< vultraz_iOS> Was enabled on my gcc builds too.
20170911 19:22:26< sevu> So, seems to be fine, I enable it then too. 
20170911 19:24:00< vn971> feedback welcome (if any). The main use case, I think, is to play with friends who are not yet very familiar with the game (and could use a handicap), or with AI.
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20170911 19:26:43< vn971> Also, I wonder. Should I always just duplicate [modification]/description and _server.pbl/description ? Feels strange that they are separate, but I can't think of a way how to merge them.
20170911 19:37:17< vultraz_iOS> yeah, you have to
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20170911 20:16:21< vn971> I decided I can't take it and wrote a script that would put the same description in two files. The script quickly got non-pleasant.) Well, as usual with sed and bash..)
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20170911 20:22:15< sevu> vn971, I saw AI sides with 22 income and 22 gold per village now
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20170911 20:23:45< vn971> sevu: that's how it's supposed to work. Although I think it should be 20 gold per village, not 22?.. If you specified maximum handicap income in game creation settings
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20170911 20:30:36< sevu> I started a campaign in SP, it was both the same.
20170911 20:31:21< sevu> For MP, the game creation screen has settings for income and village per gold settings. Is there sth which the add-on makes different? vn971 
20170911 20:32:36< vn971> sevu: Yes (if I understood you correctly). This mod takes "income" setting and transforms it to "gold per village".
20170911 20:32:56< vn971> So it's not a constant +N per turn, but scales with the number of villages.
20170911 20:35:46< sevu> so if you have 10 villages... then you get 10 (or 12) basis income? plus 1 or 2 *10 for the villages?
20170911 20:38:26< vn971> sevu: it's all about the handicap at the start of the game. If it's 0, then there is no difference. If it's +1, then that player will have 3 gold per village income. Like on this screenshot: https://pointsgame.net/vn971/temp/2017.09.11_23:37:48_e14b097.png
20170911 20:38:59< vn971> So, with 10 villages that would be 2 (default income) + 1 (normal handicap income) + 3*10 (boosted income for villages).
20170911 20:39:52< vn971> It's a normal wesnoth setting so you can even see your real income on the window top (where the current gold is etc).
20170911 20:41:18< sevu> I think you can set this both in the MP create screen. If you set handicap income to 1 and village per gold to 3 it would be the same. vn971 
20170911 20:41:23< vn971> It's just {handicap} * {villages} = 1*10 of additional income in this simple example.
20170911 20:42:00< vn971> sevu: by default, this is a constant income bonus. Just a +1 during all the game, for example.
20170911 20:42:51< vn971> with this add-on, you can give some player +1 _per village_. The more he expands the more dangerous he'll get.
20170911 20:47:26< vn971> sevu: ah, I've got it now. You're confusing "global" income per village with player-specific income per village.
20170911 20:48:13< vn971> sevu: if you set "gold per village" in wesnoth default settings, it would be for all players. With this add-on, you can give a boost for 1 player but don't give anything to another.
20170911 20:48:54< sevu> ok. how do you decide how get's this bonas and who not?
20170911 20:48:55< vn971> You can't get the screenshot above without any add-on.
20170911 20:48:57< sevu> vn971, 
20170911 20:50:03< vn971> sevu: I take the handicap from here: https://pointsgame.net/vn971/temp/2017.09.11_23:49:48_12c5cc8.png   (game creation settings, last step)
20170911 20:50:27< sevu> ahhhhh, no I understand it 
20170911 20:51:45< vn971> sevu: I wonder how should I explain it so it could be easier to grasp. Making something easy understandable is hard.:( Especially if the language is not native to you.:D
20170911 20:51:59< vn971> * how I can
20170911 20:59:19< sevu> vn971, maybe:
20170911 20:59:21< sevu> Alters 'Gold per Village' constant for each side independently.
20170911 20:59:21< sevu> The global "Village Gold" is ignored, instead the player-specific 'Income' is used for determining a side's 'Village Gold'
20170911 20:59:56< sevu> I'm not a native speaker either
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20170911 21:06:53< vn971> I've currently done a full rewrite and uploaded the new version: https://pointsgame.net/vn971/temp/2017.09.12_00:06:26_083e29f.png
20170911 21:09:02< vultraz_iOS> nice :)
20170911 21:11:00< sevu> looks good 
20170911 21:31:50< sevu> https://img1.picload.org/image/dgralocl/lua.png this seems to still exist
20170911 21:32:09< sevu> unfortunately it happens quite seldom
20170911 21:33:12< sevu> ^ celticminstrel celmin
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20170911 22:06:51< irker594> wesnoth: Ignacio R. Morelle wesnoth:master 3eafff0d7d1b / data/tools/unit_tree/html_output.py: wmlunits: Use the unit type id on the id tooltip, not the name https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3eafff0d7d1bc57eb0a191577a25919e2144e428
20170911 22:21:27< vn971> BTW, I wonder, do small inconsistencies count [as bugs]? In current master, opening any kind of modal dialog makes the background field view lose all labels. But not 100% of the time. Sometimes labels are lost, sometimes not. For example, pressing Esc will retain the labels visually, though they disappear if you redraw the screen.
20170911 22:22:45< vn971> Sometimes labels are even lost while you were doing something in your modal window, which is easily seen by the eye and made me notice this thing in the first place.
20170911 22:22:46< zookeeper> well, labels disappearing when dialogs are open is a known issue, so the inconsistency of them not _always_ disappearing isn't very important
20170911 22:24:08< vn971> zookeeper: ok, no problem. Obviously not important.
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20170911 22:34:59< Aginor> not redrawing the labels every frame would solve that for dialogs, and be rather beneficial for the performance
20170911 22:35:57< vultraz_iOS> it's annoying, celmin did his best to mitigate it, but honestly, we have bigger problems
20170911 22:36:03< vultraz_iOS> AR will do a lot for that anyway
20170911 22:37:47< vultraz_iOS> let's get 1.14 out so we can focus on the awesomeness of AR 
20170911 22:52:08< zookeeper> that sounds awfully lot like getting 1.14 out so we can abandon it immediately
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20170911 22:56:10< vultraz_iOS> I am hoping for a relatively short 1.15 dev cycle
20170911 22:56:40< vultraz_iOS> ~ 1 year
20170911 22:58:23< zookeeper> if we're not going to spend any serious effort on fixing visual problems in 1.14 because as soon as it's out "we'll focus on AR", then the shorter the better, naturally.
20170911 23:00:23< vultraz_iOS> we already put serious effort into fixing visual problems
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20170911 23:01:37< vultraz_iOS> for one, what do you call what jyrki's been doing :P
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 12 00:00:50 2017