--- Log opened Sat Sep 02 00:00:36 2017 20170902 00:01:20-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 00:05:55-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 00:27:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 00:35:07-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170902 00:39:07-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 00:43:41-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 00:50:55-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 00:55:10-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 01:41:42< wesnoth-discord-> @shadowm indeed,it is infinitely easier to have code in chat than using a pastebin 20170902 02:03:46-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 02:12:17-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20170902 02:13:49-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 02:28:05-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170902 02:29:00-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 02:43:21-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 02:47:05-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170902 02:55:52< wesnoth-discord-> You guys gave me literally 0 ideas for my game :p 20170902 02:58:32< wesnoth-discord-> I'm trying to compile the best from every single great tactics game, but it all ends up being too close to wesnoth >.< 20170902 03:00:10< aeth> If you're asking for ideas about a game, it's very different than ideas to fix Wesnoth, which is basically mature. 20170902 03:20:14< wesnoth-discord-> @ " Wesnoth's best played by having sure units (preferably with magical or marksman) guarded by shield units to minimize the role of luck, retreating with unfavorable ToD, and paying more attention to evasion than anything else, a bit to resistances unless Undead and Drakes are involved to require a lot of focus on resistances." 1) Playing against AI rewards playing boringly like that, but that does not go for 1v1 2) 20170902 03:20:14< wesnoth-discord-> Backstab rewards playing excitingly even against AI, which is why it is The Best Ability In The Game 20170902 03:20:43< wesnoth-discord-> which is why I wish more units had backstab or something similar 20170902 03:29:19< wesnoth-discord-> I think 1 is because: * campaigns and PvE are all about preserving and upgrading units, while 1v1 is about village grabbing, among other reasons because you know that a human enemy can make as good a use of gold as you can * the danger posed by a unit controlled by a human enemy is vastly greater than the danger posed by a unit controlled by AI, which means you take greater risks for killing enemy units in 1v1 * campaigns and 20170902 03:29:20< wesnoth-discord-> PvE have so many units on the map that everything is reachable by a wide load of units, which makes positioning less interesting; 1v1 has less units, so the formulas of what units can reach what units is "sharper" * 1v1 is over when you kill just one enemy leader, which can often be achieved by risky moves; campaigns and PvE often have more leaders or other conditions entirely (suffer through X waves of enemies) 20170902 03:58:44-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 04:10:08-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 04:17:24-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20170902 04:19:03< aeth> I think I played more FFA and team matches than SP, but I rarely played 1v1. 20170902 04:19:25< aeth> My strat still works in FFA and team matchup. 20170902 04:20:10< aeth> In FFA, you want to be strong without *appearing* to be strong. In team vs you don't want to be that guy who messes up for the team by being too risky. 20170902 04:20:42< aeth> Playing risky is a good way to look stronger than you are in FFA. 20170902 04:24:24< aeth> There is an exception to the rule, and that's the Drakes. Sure take all the risks with Drakes because they can retreat in time. 20170902 04:27:28< aeth> Shielding augurs with clashers probably wouldn't work nearly as well as shielding DAs with ghouls. 20170902 04:38:21-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20170902 04:43:48< wesnoth-discord-> FFA is a rare type of game 20170902 04:44:55< wesnoth-discord-> Almost all FFA I've seen are either some UMC scripty stuff with its own rules, or 1v1v1, which is a bit silly kind of game, and is joined almost solely by newbies 20170902 04:49:01-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Quit: The Game] 20170902 04:54:15< wesnoth-discord-> holy crap I just remembered what this game was 20170902 04:57:50< aeth> back when MP had more population, vanilla or near-vanilla 4p or 5p FFA wasn't hard to arrange, idk about now 20170902 04:58:21< aeth> And usually it was a mix between good and bad players. Maybe 2 newbies. 20170902 04:59:39-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 05:07:27< aeth> The great thing about a 5p FFA is that you can't just be good. You have to hold back so people don't gang up on you, and only run away with the game when you think you can take on everyone at once (but quite often one person refuses this rational action and it's not as hard as it sounds) 20170902 05:12:32-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170902 05:32:01< wesnoth-discord-> I remember Auction X being pretty fun. 20170902 05:32:34< wesnoth-discord-> I learned pretty quick that it was a bad idea to get the AI's attention on that one. 20170902 06:02:20< aeth> Auction X plays pretty differently than Forest of Fear (5p) or Siege Castles (4p), though. Iirc 20170902 06:03:38< aeth> All three are fun FFAs, though. 20170902 06:04:09< aeth> Also, I made several FFA maps and an uneven team map. 20170902 06:10:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:11:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 06:15:10-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170902 06:15:36-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:17:31-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:17:59-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 06:26:38-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:28:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 06:33:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:40:01< wesnoth-discord-> ah right, Auction X too 20170902 06:40:54< wesnoth-discord-> I just found out there's Tetris on the umc server for 1.12, and has been for 1.10 apparently 20170902 06:41:05< wesnoth-discord-> real-time tetris, actually works!! 20170902 06:41:31< wesnoth-discord-> _screams in pain at engine abuse_ 20170902 06:41:46< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ˜„ 20170902 06:42:08< wesnoth-discord-> It only works in networked games 20170902 06:42:42< wesnoth-discord-> I finished one game (against myself, through separate client instance), but OOSed on the other 20170902 06:42:57< wesnoth-discord-> OOSing might have been caused by losing window focus? I don't know. Still, impressive as hell 20170902 06:44:26< wesnoth-discord-> the ui is a marvel as well 20170902 06:48:02< aeth> works 20170902 06:48:32< aeth> and it's literally tetris, not some hextris 20170902 06:48:52-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 06:52:02-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 06:54:36-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 07:22:58< wesnoth-discord-> does anyone want to play Tetris? I'm on 1.12 20170902 07:26:58< wesnoth-discord-> OOSes 😦 20170902 07:27:13< wesnoth-discord-> The game still finished fine 20170902 07:33:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 07:34:08-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.131.67.203] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 07:41:50< wesnoth-discord-> Now without OOSes 20170902 07:47:22-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 07:47:27-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 07:55:33< wesnoth-discord-> someone's avatar looks like amane πŸ€” 20170902 07:55:51< wesnoth-discord-> It's indeed her. πŸ˜‰ 20170902 07:55:57< wesnoth-discord-> πŸ‘Œ 20170902 07:56:02< wesnoth-discord-> good taste 20170902 07:56:09< wesnoth-discord-> Thanks. πŸ˜ƒ 20170902 08:06:03-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 08:06:13-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 08:09:56-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 08:10:15-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 08:27:30-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 08:27:30< wesnoth-discord-> Oww, now it crashed Wesnoth with Assertion failed. 20170902 08:28:10< wesnoth-discord-> Well, UMC shouldn't be able to crash Wesnoth, so it's an engine bug. 20170902 08:28:43< wesnoth-discord-> But given how large changes there are between 1.12 and 1.13, it may well be already fixed or otherwise invalid at this point. 20170902 08:39:26< wesnoth-discord-> Final tally: 2 games fine, 3 games with OOS, 1 with assert crash - and OOS does cause the players to go out of sync after all, so it isn't really playable. 20170902 08:47:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 08:47:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 08:48:47< wesnoth-discord-> when 1.13.9 comes, I will be trying to crash wesnoth again. I have high hopes on global variables from unsynced context doing so 20170902 08:57:00< wesnoth-discord-> whut 20170902 09:07:49-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 09:12:37-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 09:15:13-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 09:16:32-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 09:23:09< wesnoth-discord-> with 1.12 I had rightclick menu to crash wesnoth of target player 20170902 09:26:39-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 09:26:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 09:30:44< Ipsilon> can someone clear somethign up for me...for normal users, we should be using 1.12, right? 20170902 09:31:10< wesnoth-discord-> Yes, 1.12 is what players are generally advised to use. 20170902 09:31:12< Ipsilon> this distor I'm on, and lutris, both have 1.13, which have been very unstalbe in MP, and seem to not work with 1.12 20170902 09:32:10< wesnoth-discord-> It sounds strange that your distro offers unstable software. Which distro are you using? Arch? 20170902 09:50:57< wesnoth-discord-> if you join a multiplayer game but lack the necessary mod, does it automatically download them for you? 20170902 09:54:02< Ipsilon> it's Solus. I've already tried to make it clear that it is a very strange thing to do. But also lutris has 1.13, which I find even more strange 20170902 09:54:06< Ipsilon> arch has 1.12 20170902 09:54:16< Ipsilon> which is my main distro...but on this machine, not. 20170902 10:08:38-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 10:29:19-!- Kranix [~magnus@188-182-184-38-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:23:37-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:23:47-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 11:24:57-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170902 11:25:17-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:25:23-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 11:29:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:33:59-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 11:36:18-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:36:29-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 11:44:08-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:47:43-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:48:10-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 11:53:52-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 11:58:04-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:00:48-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:18:11-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:19:00-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:23:35-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:25:21-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:31:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:31:45-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:36:07-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:36:38-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:41:06-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:41:58< Kwandulin> Mhh, is there a way to show a custom imagine instead of the map in the multiplayer map selection? 20170902 12:45:12< zookeeper> image? no 20170902 12:48:36< zookeeper> if you don't mind a limited resolution and palette, you could instead just construct the initial map to resemble whatever image you wanted... :p 20170902 12:49:08< Kwandulin> :< 20170902 12:49:12-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@103.221.141.157] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 12:49:27< zookeeper> you don't think that sounds fun? :P 20170902 12:49:54-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 12:50:38-!- ancientcc [~ancientcc@183.240.25.165] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 13:14:53< wesnoth-discord-> many scenarios do that 20170902 13:29:51< wesnoth-discord-> How to load and view multiplayer replays with 1.12.6 ? When I use a Local Multiplayer -> Load Game, it just starts a new game on a different map 20170902 13:32:34< wesnoth-discord-> It seems to be working when I load from within a new MP game. But still gives a warning. 20170902 13:34:45< wesnoth-discord-> Load from main menu, tick the little "Show Replay" box 20170902 13:37:24< wesnoth-discord-> The "normal load" vs "multiplayer load" difference is definitely confusing 20170902 13:42:46< wesnoth-discord-> @blarumyrran it still gives me a warning when I do that. "Warning. This is a multiplayer scenario" 20170902 13:43:40< wesnoth-discord-> anyways, the Load Game button in the MP Create dialog appears broken 20170902 13:45:28< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah, it should either not allow "Show Replay" at all or do it properly 20170902 13:49:41< wesnoth-discord-> I once played a multiplayer campaign locally, The Altaz Mariners. I loaded it through the "normal Load", and at first I did not notice, but some odd errors (no error messages, just... oddnesses in how things worked) kept piling up, as if it was haunted, because I SHOULD HAVE loaded it through "multiplayer Load". That is how obscure the differences can be 20170902 13:50:48-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170902 13:51:10-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 13:59:18-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 14:57:47-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 15:03:03-!- edaq [~edaq3@h69-21-227-85.cytnin.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 15:04:27-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170902 15:08:17-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 15:23:32-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F997909BD966E79DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170902 15:25:54-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F805C30C9B938E431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 15:38:16-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 15:38:22-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 16:00:02-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 16:00:18-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 16:24:34-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170902 16:30:15< Kwandulin> I am trying to make a survival scenario. What case sounds more appealing: a) spawn every x rounds a group of enemies or b) spawn every round a single unit at a specific position (there might be more than 1 position)? 20170902 16:31:44< Kwandulin> Option b leads to a strange stalemate, where the player cannot really retreat anymore. And Option a may lead to a tomato surprise, especially when the player stands in such a spawning location 20170902 16:41:14< wesnoth-discord-> Pretty much all survival scenarios are type a 20170902 16:42:22< wesnoth-discord-> And in many, maybe most of them, there is no surprise, because each time a wave appears, labels appear for where the next wave will appear, eg "Orcish Grunt" label at 12,34 20170902 16:42:42< wesnoth-discord-> And elsewhere it is stated what turn that wave will appear at, so there is no hidden information 20170902 16:42:51-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 16:43:12< wesnoth-discord-> except maybe traits, but if you want to get rid of even that, then you can just not give the spawning units traits 20170902 16:44:55< Kwandulin> Right, labels are a good idea, I'll go for option a then 20170902 16:51:42< wesnoth-discord-> If you are going to make a survival scenario, why not try out some existing ones, for inspiration? Eg "Orocia" (I do not know the name of the add-on) is one of the enduringly popular ones 20170902 16:53:57< Kwandulin> I am pretty sure I heard from it. Gonna try it 20170902 17:04:47-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC65C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 17:05:58< wesnoth-discord-> The way ingame help sorts units by "race", which is completely meaningless (other than traits, kind of?), is a mess. It is not a bother if there are no other eras and UMC installed, but if there are, it becomes very annoying to look at 20170902 17:06:11< wesnoth-discord-> I wish it worked just like units.wesnoth.org 20170902 17:06:46< wesnoth-discord-> grouping everything by Era/Campaign 20170902 17:07:20< wesnoth-discord-> although, units.wesnoth.org is the superior lookup source anyway, because it does not lock the client 20170902 17:07:40< wesnoth-discord-> (wrong word?) 20170902 17:08:45< wesnoth-discord-> I guess wesnoth's ingame help for units, is there for the sake of completeness, and for those who have no internet? 20170902 17:09:01< wesnoth-discord-> and as a historic relic 20170902 17:10:34< wesnoth-discord-> AFAIK, players are intended to use ingame help. But of course you're free to use u.w.o if you prefer. 20170902 17:10:54< wesnoth-discord-> But u.w.o is so much superior that it should be at least recommended 20170902 17:11:21< wesnoth-discord-> especially in multiplayer, you cannot keep others waiting while your ingame help blocks your screen 20170902 17:30:27< wesnoth-discord-> I can't put a password on my lobby :NotLikeMiya: 20170902 17:31:28-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e32b4f9.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 17:33:17< gfgtdf> in 1.12 loading mp saves from sp results in bugs in particular [event]s from [era] or [modification] might be skipped. 20170902 17:33:33< gfgtdf> these erros a,long with the wanrinf were removed in 1.13 20170902 17:33:51< gfgtdf> 20170902 09:23:09< wesnoth-discord-> with 1.12 I had rightclick menu to crash wesnoth of target player 20170902 17:34:22< gfgtdf> Ravana_: in 1.13 this will probably be even easier with unsyced menu items and [do_command] 20170902 17:35:06-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@93-172-30-106.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 17:35:15< gfgtdf> 20170902 12:48:36< zookeeper> if you don't mind a limited resolution and palette, you could instead just construct the initial map to resemble whatever image you wanted... :p 20170902 17:35:47< gfgtdf> zookeeper: but note that 1.12 hs the 'tactical map coloring' which uses quite different colors 20170902 17:55:21< zookeeper> gfgtdf, no, it uses the scaled-down terrain images 20170902 17:55:57< gfgtdf> zookeeper: not always 20170902 17:56:06< gfgtdf> depends on prefrences 20170902 17:56:34< zookeeper> i see no such preferenc 20170902 17:56:36< zookeeper> e 20170902 17:57:06< gfgtdf> one of the buttons below th eminimal (ingame) 20170902 17:57:12< gfgtdf> the minimap* 20170902 17:57:31< zookeeper> oh right, if i go in a game and select that mode, it will get used in the preview too. 20170902 17:57:54< zookeeper> yeah that'd be a bit of a problem 20170902 18:00:46< zookeeper> hard to say whether the current behaviour is even desirable. wanting to see the tactical view in-game is one thing, but would one really want to look at map previews with that? maybe not. 20170902 18:10:46< gfgtdf> zookeeper: i'd if you prefrer the tactical map view you also perfer it in map repviws, although do do think it'D bad that it can only be changed ingame even though it also effects those map previes 20170902 18:14:59-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3B2F805C30C9B938E431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170902 18:17:14-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3BF7805C30C9B938E431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 18:18:10-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170902 18:19:49< wesnoth-discord-> default bots are hard T_T 20170902 18:21:24< aeth> The AI is designed for swarming with a numerical advantage and not caring for the life of its units. I think it ignores or mostly ignores time of day (not retreating when it should), and it can often be baited onto bad terrain. 20170902 18:22:19< aeth> You can usually beat it by holding all the good terrain (forcing it onto bad terrain) while defending and then attacking it when the time of day is unfavorable (if the AI units aren't neutral). 20170902 18:37:59< DeFender1031> Eh, even if they ARE neutral, if your units aren't, then you get SOME advantage. 20170902 18:52:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170902 18:52:16-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 18:57:10< aeth> DeFender1031: And even if it's a neutral/neutral matchup the AI will probably not take favorable terrain. Neutral units usually need that more, either hills/mountains or forests. 20170902 18:57:46< aeth> elvish shamans and archers are a pain on forest hexes with 70% evade and totally beatable elsewhere. 20170902 18:58:55< aeth> dwarves are even worse on most terrain than compared to their favorable hills/mountains/cave 20170902 18:59:55< aeth> A dwarvish unit on a mountain village that can't be approached from 6 sides is going to win. 20170902 19:04:06< aeth> A human will probably take advantage of that. An AI will be tricked into doing something stupid. 20170902 19:09:49< Polsaker> on 1vs1 games against humans, when i play northerners i like to make the enemy panic a bit by sending a single assasin to their keep 20170902 19:35:55< aeth> I think that works with any 70% evade on castle unit 20170902 19:36:26< aeth> e.g. The main use of fencers is to draw away 6 units far away from the main battle. 20170902 19:43:25< wesnoth-discord-> I just tested AI and, it seems to have learned to use Backstab? When did that happen? 20170902 19:43:35< aeth> when you weren't expecting it 20170902 19:43:44< wesnoth-discord-> IIRC not long ago it only backstabbed by accident 20170902 19:44:49< wesnoth-discord-> oh no the AI is learning 20170902 19:45:24< wesnoth-discord-> next thing you know they won't have more scouts than they meed 20170902 19:48:41< zookeeper> eh, i'm sure the AI has always been aware of backstab opportunities when the other unit is already in place. so if it has one unit adjacent to an enemy and it's considering what to do with a thief, it's likely to pick the location that gives 2x damage. 20170902 19:48:53< zookeeper> but i doubt it actually engineers those situations intentionally. 20170902 19:48:55-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@63-152-69-117.cdrr.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 19:51:11< wesnoth-discord-> I'll download an old version and check it out 20170902 19:52:48< zookeeper> well, i also didn't mean "always" literally :p i don't really remember, maybe the AI really hasn't been able to consider backstab in any fashion before. 20170902 20:21:23< wesnoth-discord-> i'm trying 1.6, that's not too old! 20170902 20:23:41< wesnoth-discord-> Ayy evolving AI could be fun πŸ˜„ 20170902 20:23:57< wesnoth-discord-> Both to write and play 20170902 20:30:41-!- vultraz_iOS [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170902 20:35:20< aeth> Which release first had Lua? 20170902 20:35:39< gfgtdf> observing LoW mp game in 1.12, always funny. 20170902 20:35:41< aeth> there were two really big changes in Wensoth, [set_menu_item] in 1.4 and then the introduction of Lua a few versions later 20170902 20:36:26< gfgtdf> aeth: iirc older wesnoth versions used python for scripting, but it was ten removed becasue it was unsafe (no good sandboxing) 20170902 20:36:59< gfgtdf> for ai scripting i meant 20170902 20:37:40< wesnoth-discord-> zookeeper: it was as you said, 1.6 AI backstabbed similarly to 1.12 20170902 20:41:23< wesnoth-discord-> gfgtdf: all I remember of python was that esr was a big fan of it, then one day on the mailing list appeared some guy who promised to reimplement the whole wesnoth in python, and everyone but esr was skeptical, and in the end his big result was making a python program that looks like the wesnoth main menu πŸ˜„ 20170902 20:41:32< wesnoth-discord-> with the map and buttons, except they don't do anything 20170902 20:42:15< wesnoth-discord-> Hey, where can I find example of WML? 20170902 20:42:29< gfgtdf> Saran: in mainline campaiugns for example 20170902 20:42:51< gfgtdf> Saran: in the data/ subdirectory of the wesnoth installation dirctory 20170902 20:43:16< gfgtdf> blarumyrran: yes there were also other multiple attempts to replainplement wesnoth 20170902 20:43:20< wesnoth-discord-> Also, I'd like to ask for what devs need WML if they use LUA too? 20170902 20:43:25-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@p200300E453CC3BF7805C30C9B938E431.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20170902 20:43:57< wesnoth-discord-> WML came first, for starters. 20170902 20:44:29< wesnoth-discord-> I don't think anyone wants to try rewriting all existing mainline WML in lua just for the sake of not using WML 20170902 20:44:51< gfgtdf> blarumyrran: for example fabi tried tp do it in lua. 20170902 20:45:02< wesnoth-discord-> Ok, thanks πŸ˜ƒ 20170902 20:45:49< gfgtdf> Pentarctagon: if i you don't liek wml, you ave to use it for the non-actions things, like defining units types/stats etc. 20170902 20:46:22< wesnoth-discord-> I actually like WML more than lua πŸ˜› 20170902 20:46:31< wesnoth-discord-> much easier for me to read 20170902 20:47:32< wesnoth-discord-> plus a lot of the WML tags are implemented with lua now anyway, so it's sort of a moot point in that aspect 20170902 20:47:59< wesnoth-discord-> gfgtdf: I remember an actually quite functional web-based one. Functional as in, you could play a game with it; it only had loyalists and lacked all or most abilities. It was meant to played in a 1 move per day kind of tempo 20170902 20:48:17< wesnoth-discord-> sad to say, a couple of turns in I forgot to check it 20170902 20:49:27< gfgtdf> you mean 1 turn per day i assume ? 20170902 20:49:37< wesnoth-discord-> yeah 20170902 20:51:16< wesnoth-discord-> @Saran you can look in data/lua/wml-tags.lua, for example 20170902 20:51:39< wesnoth-discord-> Okay 20170902 20:55:14< wesnoth-discord-> gfgtdf: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21807&p=303808&hilit=tidestone#p303808 from 2008, long since dead, of course 😐 for whatever reason, it called itself MMORPG, although it wasn't 20170902 20:59:42< gfgtdf> lol wesnoth mmorpg lol 20170902 21:00:31< gfgtdf> hmm unfortunatley there wasn't even screenshot in that thread. 20170902 21:02:24< wesnoth-discord-> From google, 2006: http://tidestone.sourceforge.net/screen0.jpg I guess it was more of a rpg in 2006, and later just became web wesnoth? 20170902 21:03:01< wesnoth-discord-> it looked like wesnoth that misses features, and ofc no terrain transitions 20170902 21:03:14< wesnoth-discord-> the 2008 version, that is. 20170902 21:03:35-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170902 21:14:57< mattsc> Some of us have been working on and off on creating an AI that does not (mostly) just charge. It’s very slow going though and I am not sure that it will ever reach general usability status. 20170902 21:16:04< mattsc> As for backstab. leadership and the like, it is as zookeeper said. The AI evaluation will take the effect into account if the units happen to be in a position in which it applies, but the units are not specifically set up with the goal of exploiting the effect(s). 20170902 21:16:46< wesnoth-discord-> leadership must be especially complicated to do optimally 20170902 21:17:28< mattsc> yep β€” that’s why there isn’t even a Micro AI for it (yet); while one for healers does exists, for example 20170902 21:24:25< aeth> Python has its good points and Python has its flaws, but it's #1 flaw is that it's one of the slowest languages out there so it's useless for games. And, then, yeah the lack of sandboxing doesn't help, either. 20170902 22:21:27-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20170902 22:22:32-!- Kranix [~magnus@188-182-184-38-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20170902 22:30:05-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20170902 23:24:42-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20170902 23:42:50< wesnoth-discord-> aeth: Python is much more performant than you might think 20170902 23:44:23< wesnoth-discord-> aeth: The hard bit is the sandboxing 20170902 23:45:35< wesnoth-discord-> It can be done, but it'd be harder than with Lua since basically you'd have to prevent importing certain C modules --- Log closed Sun Sep 03 00:00:38 2017