--- Log opened Thu Sep 14 00:00:52 2017 20170914 00:29:56-!- nmoinvaz [4c5a8cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.90.140.252] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 01:12:59-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20170914 01:37:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170914 01:38:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 01:53:05-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 01:56:52-!- DasBrain [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170914 02:28:54-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 02:33:08-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170914 02:42:42-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:e984:ca76:b624:8446] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 03:14:32-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:e984:ca76:b624:8446] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20170914 03:15:21-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 03:15:24-!- nmoinvaz [4c5a8cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.90.140.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20170914 03:22:54-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 04:25:41-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170914 04:30:40< wesnoth-discord-> hello 20170914 04:30:56< wesnoth-discord-> Can someone give me some lessons how to play in that game? 20170914 04:32:10< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth 20170914 04:46:17< galego> What have you done so far? 20170914 05:10:26< Necrosporus> There is tutorial in Wesnoth. Have you played through it and defeated orc leader? 20170914 05:36:01-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20170914 05:49:47-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 06:01:24-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 06:31:24-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 06:31:42-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 06:43:33< wesnoth-discord-> Ted, i am not really a pro at this game but i will try to give some tips 20170914 06:43:54< wesnoth-discord-> the most important thing in my opinion is village control 20170914 06:44:22< wesnoth-discord-> the more villages you have the faster you will fund new units 20170914 06:44:33< wesnoth-discord-> and the second piece of advice 20170914 06:44:54< wesnoth-discord-> don't be afraid to use your leader, especially in campaigns 20170914 06:48:09< zookeeper> also, don't be afraid to lose _some_ units. you're not supposed to try to keep everyone alive. of course you don't want to unnecessarily lose any special units, but your common recruits are quite disposable as long as you don't get _all_ of them killed. 20170914 07:00:42< Necrosporus> I always try to play in such a way that I lose no units at all 20170914 07:00:46< Necrosporus> And it often works 20170914 07:02:20< Necrosporus> I mean, if you consider wesnoth as game like chess, perhaps it's smart to say recruit a lot of peasants and cover all the weak points with them 20170914 07:03:12< Necrosporus> But if you try to submerge yourself in it and play the role of war leader, will you really send peasant where you can put your veterans which are likely to survive 20170914 07:03:30< Necrosporus> While peasants would most certainly die 20170914 07:05:45< Necrosporus> So I would recruit no peasants at all if i can recruit their advancements directly even if strategically it's worse 20170914 07:10:51< aeth> A few more things. Terrain is important (try to be on good terrain and force the enemy onto bad terrain), time of day is important (fight when you have the largest advantage in time of day and retreat at the largest disadvantage), and resistance sometimes matters (spearmen won't really be able to do much against skeletons compared to heavy infantry) 20170914 07:13:05< wesnoth-discord-> @gohomoth oh thanks, can you help with multiplayer? 20170914 07:45:19-!- lipkab [~the_new_l@195.56.169.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170914 07:45:33< wesnoth-discord-> i mean the village control is especially useful in multiplayer 20170914 07:46:02< wesnoth-discord-> and in multiplayer, i usually favour the cheaper units over "cooler or powerful" units 20170914 07:46:25< wesnoth-discord-> like why buy a 19 gold heavy infantry when you can buy two spearmen 20170914 07:47:01< wesnoth-discord-> unless your units directly counter the enemy, you shouldn't have more than 2 or 3 specialists 20170914 07:48:49< wesnoth-discord-> and i'm talking about like a 28 gold scenario 20170914 07:49:00< wesnoth-discord-> if you can buy heavy infantry AND spearman 20170914 07:49:04< wesnoth-discord-> go for it 20170914 08:00:00< aeth> spearmen are useful because they can block 20170914 08:30:42-!- Necrosporus_ [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 08:30:42-!- Necrosporus is now known as Guest9809 20170914 08:30:42-!- Necrosporus_ is now known as Necrosporus 20170914 08:34:26-!- Guest9809 [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 09:05:07< Kwandulin> On a scale from 1 to tomato, how bad is having a Yeti blocking a 1-hex bottleneck? 20170914 09:05:57< zookeeper> can you attack it from only one hex, too? 20170914 09:06:03< zookeeper> if so then _that_ is pretty bad :P 20170914 09:07:04< wesnoth-discord-> Nothing is as bad as hacking. 20170914 09:07:28< zookeeper> well, if you have a few great mages and time to spare... a great mage has 65hp vs the yeti's 32-2 so it should work out. 20170914 09:07:53< Necrosporus> Kwandulin, it depends what units you have 20170914 09:08:03< zookeeper> @blarumyrran, i don't know what you're talking about 20170914 09:08:28< Necrosporus> For example in certain campaign my unit can easily kill that yeti with one ranged strike 20170914 09:08:34< Necrosporus> I mean one ranged attack 20170914 09:08:36< Kwandulin> Yes, 1 hex only. Necrosporus: the player has access to orcish assassins and shadows, vanilla wesnoth 20170914 09:08:53< zookeeper> well, if you have even a single assassin, then all you need is time 20170914 09:09:05< Necrosporus> Right 20170914 09:10:27< zookeeper> i wonder if in this case the scenario could be balanced so that using poison to take most of its hp would work 20170914 09:10:38< zookeeper> it's kind of the obvious first thing to do, poison it 20170914 09:11:08< zookeeper> and then you can either risk melee units to finish earlier, or wait for the poison to do its work to finish just barely in time 20170914 09:12:13< Kwandulin> Yeah, the yeti should be located at the starting position of the player then, so that 142hp get reduced in a good manner of time 20170914 09:12:18< Necrosporus> Also a trick with putting a melee unit next to yeti without attacking could work 20170914 09:12:24< Kwandulin> Maybe even a bigger Yeti then; raul-rorigs father or so 20170914 09:12:51< zookeeper> i don't think yetis would tend to travel across oceans :P 20170914 09:12:53< Necrosporus> If you have 65hp or more 20170914 09:13:38< Necrosporus> If you attack with melee and get retaliation you die but if you only stay next to yeti and let it attack then you can move away even if barely alive 20170914 09:13:48< Necrosporus> At least this trick worked with a giant spider 20170914 09:14:25< Kwandulin> The bloodline of the raul-rorigs is very old and goes back to the first ice age of wesnoth, when the great ocean was all frozen and yetis were walking across it . . . duh 20170914 09:14:41< zookeeper> true! 20170914 09:15:15< Necrosporus> aeth, retreating during bad ToD is not always necessary, you can simply reduce pressure a little for example end even keep advancing sometimes, or in other times simply sit in castle'village in defensive formation 20170914 09:18:38< Necrosporus> Also if enemy is faster then you should rather keep attacking, only do it more cautiously 20170914 10:13:05-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170914 10:20:07-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 11:45:52-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170914 12:19:11-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 12:46:41-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 13:04:03-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 13:16:35-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has left #wesnoth ["Leaving"] 20170914 13:16:39-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 13:16:57-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170914 13:26:39-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 13:39:23-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170914 14:30:26-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 14:52:45< aeth> Necrosporus: I think the difference is that you're playing SP, where you can afford to play differently because of the AI's weaknesses. 20170914 14:53:08< aeth> In MP, you basically have to retreat with bad ToD or you've gotten to the point where you've already won. 20170914 14:53:37< Necrosporus> aeth, what if you are playing undead vs drakes for example? 20170914 14:53:50< Necrosporus> If you retreat they will follow and attack you anyway 20170914 14:54:02< aeth> As Undead? 20170914 14:54:07< aeth> Ghouls. 20170914 14:54:10< Necrosporus> Yes 20170914 14:54:31< Necrosporus> You have to use certain units to prevent enemy following not retreat 20170914 14:54:54< aeth> Use Ghouls as your sacrificial units, generally, iirc. 20170914 14:55:13< Necrosporus> Why not wc though? They are cheaper 20170914 14:55:26< aeth> Sometimes you have to sacrifice units, especially as Undead. 20170914 14:55:47< aeth> WC don't have ZoC so they're useless here. Skeletons are too easily countered. 20170914 14:56:17< aeth> Ghouls will force either ranged attacks or poison retaliation, great for defending because that slows the offense. 20170914 14:59:37< aeth> If they know you're Undead, they basically built their army to counter skeletons. At least most players I played against did that. 20170914 15:02:48< aeth> For Drakes, a very special case, you could probably play almost entirely with DAs and ghouls. 20170914 15:04:04< Necrosporus> and are there cases when you cannot play almost entirely using ghouls and adepts? 20170914 15:05:02< aeth> Probably. If they don't have the counter units, skeletons are quite good. 20170914 15:05:12< Necrosporus> Caught general 'N5boost16exception_detail10clone_implINS0_19error_info_injectorINS_9iostreams10gzip_errorEEEEE' exception: gzip error: iostream error 20170914 15:05:22< aeth> It's just that if they know you're undead, they have the counter units. And just about every Drake is a counter unit to skeletons anyway except Saurians 20170914 15:06:53< aeth> But when I played my (non-1v1) MP as Undead I would mostly build my army around ghouls and DAs, and it threw people's counter-the-skeletons strategies out the window. 20170914 15:08:01< aeth> It probably wouldn't be as effective if this was some competitive MP game, played competitively, with this as a popular strategy for Undead. 20170914 15:08:07< DeFender1031> Necrosporus, that's quite an exception. 20170914 15:08:46< aeth> It's better than exception F90E0007 20170914 15:18:14 * DeFender1031 doesn't know what F90E0007 is... 20170914 15:21:48< Necrosporus> It's probably just random hex value 20170914 15:22:14< Necrosporus> Meaning that some meaningful name even if that weird is better than just number 20170914 15:26:43< DeFender1031> Perhaps. 20170914 15:44:31< wesnoth-discord-> You can search for exception numbers online, so they are'nt useless. 20170914 15:45:15< wesnoth-discord-> For example, exception 0xC0000005 is well known: access violation, attempt to read from a memory address that isn't mapped to any memory. 20170914 15:46:08-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 15:47:45-!- nkr [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 16:00:25-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E5112AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 16:18:24< wesnoth-discord-> And it's also Windows-specific. 20170914 16:21:52-!- wario [~wario_@unaffiliated/wario] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170914 16:35:59-!- nkr is now known as nkr__ 20170914 16:38:38-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170914 16:41:20-!- nkr [Elite20292@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-krnubqurpovzvgds] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 16:41:55-!- nkr__ [~nkr@179.99.202.71] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170914 17:05:38-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 17:09:03-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 17:10:56-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 18:07:05-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 18:18:47-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 18:26:56-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170914 18:28:38-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 19:38:11-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170914 19:50:48-!- rotah [rotah@agoh171.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20170914 20:29:25-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20170914 21:07:40< aeth> When hex codes were common in errors, you didn't have modern search engines. 20170914 21:08:05< aeth> And I think some of the time they were just pointer addresses. 20170914 21:33:55< wesnoth-discord-> All that is still the case. 20170914 21:34:35< wesnoth-discord-> Languages like C++ and Python *allow* more expressive error reporting, but that's not a guarantee and half of it depends on whether the code author wants it to be that way. 20170914 21:35:47< wesnoth-discord-> Still. most of the time. you get into situations where the only thing you know if you can't attach a debugger and match symbols into the source is that your program received signal 11 and died. 20170914 21:37:12< wesnoth-discord-> Or, in the Python case, you get a verbose backtrace that still means nothing to you if you're just a user. 20170914 21:38:27-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20170914 21:39:12< wesnoth-discord-> One of the most common issues with Wesnoth on Windows is that people stumble into crash bugs and there's no way for them to get a meaningful backtrace because our builds for that platform don't ship with full debug symbols (if I remember correctly). 20170914 21:41:23< wesnoth-discord-> So most of the time the only thing they know is that the program encountered exception 0xC0000005 (`STATUS_ACCESS_VIOLATION`, which applies to writes and execution in addition to reads) at ``. 20170914 21:46:12< wesnoth-discord-> It's at least a little more verbose than the usual behavior on LInux where the program just vanishes and you don't even get to know if it received a signal unless you have a pseudoterminal attached to it. 20170914 21:47:13< wesnoth-discord-> Or are running a distribution whose stock configuration includes software that goes out of its way to snoop into other processes' status (apport on Ubuntu, I think?). 20170914 21:52:07< loonycyborg> kde apps have some thing that handles crashes and lets you view backtraces even 20170914 21:52:24< loonycyborg> in any case 20170914 21:52:37< loonycyborg> the more information user gets the better 20170914 21:52:40< wesnoth-discord-> That's specific to KDE 4 and Frameworks 5 apps though. 20170914 21:52:58< loonycyborg> even if user doesn't understand it fully he still can figure out some causes 20170914 21:53:00< wesnoth-discord-> It doesn't always work either for some reason. 20170914 21:53:03< loonycyborg> like missing dependency 20170914 21:53:44< loonycyborg> also there are some more rare conditions like lack of disk space 20170914 21:53:46< wesnoth-discord-> If a program crashes due to a missing dependency then the developer should reconsider their life choices. 20170914 21:53:56< loonycyborg> in my experience it results in hard to understand errors 20170914 21:54:17< loonycyborg> this could be also something that user have screwed up 20170914 21:54:34< wesnoth-discord-> Normally if a dependency is missing the program just doesn't start because the dynamic linker fails (THIS is something that I don't think any desktop environment can track and report correctly). 20170914 21:55:27< wesnoth-discord-> On Windows you get a specific message about it informing you that the process could not initialize correctly because XYZ is missing. 20170914 21:55:50< loonycyborg> I was talking about python 20170914 21:56:03< loonycyborg> it can use dependencies via import 20170914 21:56:06< wesnoth-discord-> I was talking about the general case. 20170914 21:57:18< loonycyborg> also they shouldn't give only numerical error codes ever 20170914 21:57:28< loonycyborg> I cba googling it every time 20170914 21:57:47< loonycyborg> nothing stops you from doing strerror or whatever 20170914 21:58:03< loonycyborg> to save user doing it themselves 20170914 21:58:20< wesnoth-discord-> `strerror` is only useful with a very specific kind of error. 20170914 21:58:29< wesnoth-discord-> The ones defined by the C runtime library. 20170914 21:58:48< loonycyborg> yes, that's for example only 20170914 21:58:59< wesnoth-discord-> And most of the time the user doesn't even hear about those unless the dev is being weird. 20170914 21:59:10< loonycyborg> I know that vast majority of apis offer some way of getting string representation of error 20170914 21:59:39< wesnoth-discord-> Like, what kind of dev tells their users that their program encountered error 42 while trying to open a file instead of just saying that the specified path does not exist? 20170914 21:59:54< loonycyborg> dev that hates you 20170914 22:00:18< wesnoth-discord-> I've not seen anyone who does that anyway. 20170914 22:01:03< wesnoth-discord-> That's more mundane stuff that is usually handled well. 20170914 22:02:11< loonycyborg> well I once saw such error message when an android phone ran out of disk space when installing updates 20170914 22:03:36< wesnoth-discord-> In fairness, border cases like that are poorly tested overall. 20170914 22:04:25< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth has been known to do some mindboggling stuff in certain situations and not even fail silently, just carry on pretending everything is fine. 20170914 23:04:21< aeth> In theory, certain languages with powerful type systems could be more reliable with handling edge cases. 20170914 23:04:51< aeth> In practice, you want speed at the expense of just about everything else in a game, even a 2D one, because more machines = more users/sales. 20170914 23:05:00< aeth> So even in safe languages, you'd probably disable safety. 20170914 23:11:56< wesnoth-discord-> In practice, edge cases come into more shapes and forms than you can handle with general design philosophy alone. 20170914 23:48:42-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth --- Log closed Fri Sep 15 00:00:54 2017