--- Log opened Tue Sep 19 00:00:01 2017
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20170919 05:56:46< Necrosporus> There is a common things in many Wesnoth (and not only Wesnoth) scenarios. Imagine that in a scenario you have a strong enemy and you are supposed to escape and hide in a cave or something. What if instead of doing as author intended you simply go and defeat the fierce enemy with a clever trick or extensive save scumming?
20170919 06:00:30< shadowm> If the author is me then odds are the enemy has 100% defense and that there's an event that triggers defeat if something impossible happens.
20170919 06:01:23< shadowm> Or that removing the unit in question is completely inconsequential for some other reason.
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20170919 06:05:54< aeth> Necrosporus: One way to handle it (in all games, not just Wesnoth) is to make it a very strong enemy only someone really good could beat, but not a plot character that will show up later. And just give a bonus if it can be beaten, which will happen < 1% of the time.
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20170919 06:06:40< aeth> In Star Wars terms, don't have Darth Vader chase people away. Have some extra strong Storm Trooper who will never show up again either way (or whose absence later on won't matter much)
20170919 06:07:26< Necrosporus> aeth, sounds better than shadowm suggestion, when you get defeat by killing Darth Vader
20170919 06:07:58< Necrosporus> aeth, though it could be hard sometimes
20170919 06:08:18< Necrosporus> I mean, what if your plot requires a plot-villain to appear?
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20170919 06:14:03< aeth> here plot and gameplay are opposing interests
20170919 06:14:59< aeth> I don't think you can optimize for both in this case.
20170919 06:15:19< Necrosporus> aeth, you can, but it's hard
20170919 06:15:36< shadowm> I think I have only two scenarios in AtS where there is an enemy unit that is within the player's reach and isn't supposed to die yet. In the first one, if the player somehow managed to kill it nothing special would happen and the enemy returns in the next scenario for a cutscene.
20170919 06:15:54< Necrosporus> What if you simply allow that Vader be killed and write the rest of game with that in mind
20170919 06:16:20< shadowm> On the other scenario dialogue and other stuff would just break spectacularly for that scenario since it's actually a playable cutscene.
20170919 06:17:10< aeth> Necrosporus: branching is how you exponentially increase development time
20170919 06:17:24< aeth> Necrosporus: the best compromise is probably to have you knock out Darth Vader or something
20170919 06:18:04< shadowm> Actually, scratch that.
20170919 06:18:14< shadowm> On the other scenario the player would be completely unable to advance any further.
20170919 06:18:18< shadowm> lol
20170919 06:18:21< Necrosporus> In the beginning of To Lands Unknown you get to meet a major arch enemy, which you are supposed to defeat somewhere closer to the end of campaign. The enemy could be killed if you get lucky but then an even will [heal_full] him and trigger his escape
20170919 06:18:49< Necrosporus> * an event
20170919 06:19:17< aeth> knocking out isn't very satisfying though
20170919 06:19:28< aeth> or almost killing and then having the enemy get away or whatever
20170919 06:19:53< aeth> The best gameplay thing is to actually have an unexpected victory. I think HttT scenario 1 is like this? Where you can escape but you don't have to?
20170919 06:20:06< janebot> wesnoth: This may sound almost blasphemous, but I recently installed the No Randomness Mod and I've never enjoyed Wesnoth more! (by /u/ryry1237) https://redd.it/71149y
20170919 06:20:20< aeth> But that's also the plot-weakest because can you name those orcs?
20170919 06:22:34< Necrosporus> Another nemesis in Wesnoth campaigns when you have AI allies who you need to protect and who tend to charge into enemy instead of say sitting in a village when they got bad health
20170919 06:23:42< Necrosporus> They could be tricky to protect if they charge into enemy closing only hexes which it's accessible from so you couldn't even help them
20170919 06:23:57< Necrosporus> by killing said enemy before it kills them
20170919 06:24:27< aeth> That's the only place where I cheat
20170919 06:24:40< aeth> I rarely save/load, I don't need to cheat anywhere else
20170919 06:24:54< aeth> But I will undroid AI allies that are just too bad to live
20170919 06:26:39< aeth> Giving control of multiple sides for a scenario or temporarily giving control of certain units is better
20170919 06:27:27< aeth> The AI isn't designed for fair fights (like MP maps without handicaps) or being on the player's side. It's good as a campaign enemy.
20170919 06:28:26< Necrosporus> By the way even in Wesnoth tutorial AI orcs get more money than player
20170919 06:28:38< Necrosporus> And a complete novice is still supposed to win
20170919 06:28:43< Necrosporus> In 1.13
20170919 06:29:01< Necrosporus> In 1.12 they get only very few units 
20170919 06:29:42< aeth> The AI is usually used for overwhelming, always-attacking numbers without caring about ToD, terrain (other than unchecking your villages), defense, etc.
20170919 06:30:33< Necrosporus> AI gets a bit smarter though
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20170919 06:37:20< Necrosporus> AI control seems to be a mystery though, so people often prefere to say give them 0 move point or 99 movement cost everywhere instead of tinkering with them with [ai] tags
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20170919 21:07:19< Gambit> Next time I work on GambCiv, I'm going to add crates that contain random units
20170919 21:07:24< Gambit> It'll be the most popular fucking mod
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20170919 23:30:01< loonycyborg> tst
20170919 23:30:17< wesnoth-discord-> <loonycyborg> seems to work now
20170919 23:33:45< wesnoth-discord-> <Krystal> 👍
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 20 00:00:02 2017