--- Log opened Fri Sep 22 00:00:05 2017 20170922 00:32:52-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 00:32:58-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 01:01:28-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E5112AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20170922 01:38:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 01:38:12-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 02:19:55-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 02:23:41-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170922 02:41:17-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 02:41:21-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 02:41:24-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 04:04:11-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20170922 04:12:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 04:12:47-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 04:21:34-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 04:21:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 04:49:17-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170922 05:06:09< wesnoth-discord-> I believe The Altaz Mariners also includes narration 20170922 05:06:46< wesnoth-discord-> @FerrokenFibrous ^ 20170922 05:07:11< wesnoth-discord-> However, the engine isn't really suited for narration. 20170922 05:08:04< wesnoth-discord-> You either get it on repeat by using it as music or it won't cut out properly if you use it as sound 20170922 05:09:44< Necrosporus> Use it as music and add quietness after it 20170922 05:10:04< Necrosporus> Will it work then? 20170922 05:12:41< wesnoth-discord-> It's not that it doesn't work, it's that is a pile of hacky workarounds 20170922 05:12:58< wesnoth-discord-> How much silence do you include? 20170922 05:13:13< wesnoth-discord-> What if someone wants no narration? 20170922 05:13:39< wesnoth-discord-> What if I missed part of the narration and want to listen again? 20170922 05:14:52-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 05:16:19< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, I think that even if you buy "legal right to play" game, while it's not a product it's still something you buy, not donate 20170922 05:18:32< Necrosporus> like wikipedia isn't shy to call their source of income donations // But you can legally use wikipedia without donating 20170922 05:19:18< wesnoth-discord-> Oh god not this can of worms again. 20170922 05:21:11< Necrosporus> By the way 1.13.9 is finally released 20170922 05:21:17< Necrosporus> Not announced yet though 20170922 05:21:42< wesnoth-discord-> Necrosporus: you have to understand what philosophy loonycyborg is coming from 20170922 05:21:47< wesnoth-discord-> If you are saying this because you want the topic changed, no, it's not changed until the release is approved. 20170922 05:21:49< wesnoth-discord-> Great! 20170922 05:22:12< wesnoth-discord-> 1.13.3 was tagged but it was never formally released because of some major issues with it, for example. 20170922 05:22:23< wesnoth-discord-> Same goes for 1.6.0 (you got 1.6.0a instead). 20170922 05:22:32< wesnoth-discord-> And 1.11.3. 20170922 05:22:50< wesnoth-discord-> But I suggest doing so outside this channel if you're curious since it's definitely a potential flamewar starter 20170922 05:26:22< Necrosporus> Let's discuss new 1.13 stuff for example 20170922 05:26:36< Necrosporus> What do you like and dislike in 1.13 compared to 1.12? 20170922 05:26:45< Necrosporus> Or even to 1.10 or 1.8 20170922 05:26:58-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 05:27:07< wesnoth-discord-> I dislike the fact that its idle CPU usage increased by about ten-fold. 20170922 05:27:31< Necrosporus> It also won't build without boost now, if I'm correct 20170922 05:27:41< wesnoth-discord-> You're incorrect. 20170922 05:27:49< wesnoth-discord-> It's not been buildable without Boost since 1.5.x. 20170922 05:28:03< wesnoth-discord-> It's not been buildable without Boost since 1.5.x. 20170922 05:28:08< Necrosporus> 1.12 had option to disable boost 20170922 05:28:14< wesnoth-discord-> No it didn't. 20170922 05:28:21< Necrosporus> boost filesystem 20170922 05:28:31< wesnoth-discord-> That's one Boost library of many. 20170922 05:29:12< wesnoth-discord-> So yes, you're correct that Boost.Filesystem and Boost.Locale are required now. Boost libraries in general? They've been required for almost 10 years. 20170922 05:29:38< wesnoth-discord-> In fact I'm not sure if Boost.Iostreams was even optional when it was first introduced in 1.3.x, otherwise it'd be exactly 10 years. 20170922 05:29:41< Necrosporus> But what about visual or coding parts? 20170922 05:30:01< Necrosporus> Like WML 20170922 05:30:44< Necrosporus> I mean something visible to regular player or addon author 20170922 05:31:27< wesnoth-discord-> hasn't touched the game since 1.13.2 other than writing the new file dialog so doesn't know 20170922 05:31:51< wesnoth-discord-> And also some campaignd and wmlunits stuff nobody cares about. 20170922 05:32:33< Necrosporus> is wmlunits thing which renders units.wesnoth.org? 20170922 05:32:51< wesnoth-discord-> If I say yes am I going to get swamped with feature requests? 20170922 05:34:16< Necrosporus> No, just how often is it updated for 1.13? 20170922 05:34:23< Necrosporus> Does it already reflect .9 state? 20170922 05:34:33< Necrosporus> https://units.wesnoth.org/trunk/mainline/en_US/Under_the_Burning_Suns.html where is mystic line here? 20170922 05:34:42< Necrosporus> I can't locate differences from 1.12 20170922 05:35:00< wesnoth-discord-> Beats me. I don't even know what UtBS unit tree is supposed to be like right now. 20170922 05:35:11< wesnoth-discord-> Isn't it guarded behind non-default WML symbols? 20170922 05:35:35< Necrosporus> I think that units.wesnoth.org is supposed to display campaign or addon specific units 20170922 05:35:44< wesnoth-discord-> Yes. 20170922 05:35:45< Necrosporus> If you ask it too 20170922 05:35:47< wesnoth-discord-> It already does that. 20170922 05:35:51< Necrosporus> Right 20170922 05:35:59< Necrosporus> So which units are "mystic line"? 20170922 05:36:12< Necrosporus> Which were supposed to get new sprites 20170922 05:36:18< wesnoth-discord-> > Beats me. I don't even know what UtBS unit tree is supposed to be like right now. Isn't it guarded behind non-default WML symbols? 20170922 05:36:26< wesnoth-discord-> *what the 20170922 05:36:30< Necrosporus> What does mean the last part? 20170922 05:36:44< Necrosporus> guarded by non-default WML symbols 20170922 05:36:48< wesnoth-discord-> That it's guarded behind WML symbols that aren't defined by default and therefore wmlunits can't know about them. 20170922 05:37:44< wesnoth-discord-> That's the only explanation I can come up for without looking at the WML (which I definitely won't do), based on my recollection of the new difficulty menu for that campaign circa the 1.13.8 release. 20170922 05:59:13< wesnoth-discord-> I've played too many hours of Wesnoth years ago and now I can't play it anymore 20170922 05:59:25< wesnoth-discord-> Is there any total overhaul mods you guys think might revitalize the game for me? 20170922 06:00:27-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 06:01:31-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 06:10:53< wesnoth-discord-> I don't think so. Core mods technically exist for 1.13, but nobody has made any as far as I know and there's practically no documentation on them. 20170922 06:20:15< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah I might just wait for the steam release and start playing again with Ageless Era and random campaigns 20170922 06:20:47< wesnoth-discord-> There was a new campaign added to mainline: Secrets of the Ancients 20170922 06:21:29< Necrosporus> Why would you want steam if you can play 1.13.9 without steam? 20170922 06:21:35< Necrosporus> Unlike .8 it works for MP 20170922 06:22:36< Necrosporus> Though I did finish it when it was for 1.12 and in addons. I'm not sure if it makes sense to replay it 20170922 06:22:45< wesnoth-discord-> Necrosporus: As far as new WML/lua features for 1.13, it's kind of hard since there's been so many changes. The [for] tag is nice, and being able to define custom ConditionalWML tags with lua is definitely useful. There's also now optional macro arguments and the synced attribute for [set_menu_item] 20170922 06:22:46< wesnoth-discord-> Revitalized multiplayer community and collective FOMA hype 20170922 06:23:25< Necrosporus> Is there a page which describes all changes in one place? 20170922 06:23:34< Necrosporus> For example it will be useful for porters 20170922 06:23:35< wesnoth-discord-> And also stability. 1.13.x are called development releases for a reason. The Steam version will be less buggy. 20170922 06:24:02< Necrosporus> 1.13.9 seems nearly as buggy as 1.12 20170922 06:24:10< wesnoth-discord-> There's the Complete Changelog, though that's not exactly concise. 20170922 06:24:10< Necrosporus> perhaps a bit more buggy 20170922 06:24:29< wesnoth-discord-> Insisting on the "development" release thing is exactly how you get a stable .0 with broken MP though. 20170922 06:24:35< Necrosporus> Would be nice in form of wiki page 20170922 06:24:45< wesnoth-discord-> Necrosporus: Well, I consider that a compliment. 1.12.6 is a stable release. 20170922 06:25:21< wesnoth-discord-> @shadowm I agree. I think it would make sense to stop making development releases after 1.14. 20170922 06:26:13< wesnoth-discord-> Good luck not breaking MP for everyone after 1.14 then without coming up with a radical new approach to WML and Lua API changes. 20170922 06:26:49< wesnoth-discord-> (Of course, if those ever stopped happening we content creators would be really happy. But on the other hand, where would new features come from?) 20170922 06:27:37< Necrosporus> If it were for me I would suggest writing api specifications first, discussing it thoroughly and when it's finalized implement it 20170922 06:27:48< wesnoth-discord-> I'm not an expert on API changes, I'm an engine developer. I have changed the API only a couple of times, and even most of that was accidental. 20170922 06:27:51< Necrosporus> So that documentation comes before actual code 20170922 06:28:18< wesnoth-discord-> It's impossible to do that when the WML and Lua API has been specifically developed around the community's requests. 20170922 06:28:34< Necrosporus> Why not? 20170922 06:28:43< wesnoth-discord-> Nobody knew [lock_view] would be a thing that would exist until a developer came up with the idea while sitting on the toilet. 20170922 06:28:44< Necrosporus> First we make complete specification of existing api 20170922 06:28:50< wesnoth-discord-> (That developer was me.) 20170922 06:28:57< Necrosporus> Then start integrating request into next version 20170922 06:29:15< Necrosporus> Such as [lock_view] 20170922 06:29:15< wesnoth-discord-> I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture. 20170922 06:29:38< Necrosporus> You suggest that new features should be immediately implemented? 20170922 06:29:45< wesnoth-discord-> That doesn't mean anything. 20170922 06:29:48< Necrosporus> rather than being first planned 20170922 06:30:12< wesnoth-discord-> If there are no development releases, how is the MP server and the people using it going to deal with add-ons becoming incompatible with different stable releases as things get changed around? 20170922 06:30:43< wesnoth-discord-> For example, version 1.14.3 introduces a [potato_frier] WML tag, but people running 1.14.2 won't be able to run add-ons that use it. 20170922 06:31:08< Necrosporus> It did already happen in 1.12 by the way 20170922 06:31:33< wesnoth-discord-> Okay, as ex-maintainer of the 1.12 series I am not aware of any such thing taking place but that's beside the point. 20170922 06:31:39< Necrosporus> .0 and .1 and even .2 had serious bugs which needed api incompatibilities to solve 20170922 06:31:42< wesnoth-discord-> Sure, it's not a problem for Steam releases because those would be constantly updated and people would always be on the latest version. 20170922 06:32:07< wesnoth-discord-> As long as it's only additions such as new tags, I don't see it as a big problem. 20170922 06:32:09< wesnoth-discord-> But people who obsess over Steam seem to forget that they are not the only audience Wesnoth has to deal with. 20170922 06:32:12< Necrosporus> I think the problem was LoW was unplayable with 1.12.0 20170922 06:32:35< Necrosporus> Package managers deliver updates too 20170922 06:32:50< Necrosporus> Steam is just a surrogate for apt for windows and co 20170922 06:32:57< wesnoth-discord-> A content creator can utilize tha tag when they see fit. Either immediately (and say that "this addon requires version 1.14.3 or above!") or after enough people have updated to the new version. 20170922 06:32:58< wesnoth-discord-> No serious long-term support Linux distribution maintainer is going to take you seriously if you go and tell them you should add a patch that implements a new feature instead of fixing a bug. 20170922 06:33:32< wesnoth-discord-> They'll just tell you in very polite terms to go away. 20170922 06:33:34< Necrosporus> It is a problem, but custom repos exist 20170922 06:33:46< wesnoth-discord-> And that's how support fragmentation becomes a thing. 20170922 06:34:07< wesnoth-discord-> Not to mention security threats. 20170922 06:34:28< wesnoth-discord-> Backporting game features shouldn't be a big problem for distributions, IMHO. I think the view "Ubuntu 18.04 is a stable release and nothing is allowed to change!" is too strict. 20170922 06:34:38< wesnoth-discord-> Linux users tend to place far too much trust on random third-party repositories these days. You know what other OS relies on that mentality and is plagued with malware? 20170922 06:34:43< wesnoth-discord-> Windows. 20170922 06:35:03< Necrosporus> I use repos which only host build scripts 20170922 06:35:04< wesnoth-discord-> @jyrkive Tell that to them, not me. 20170922 06:35:15< Necrosporus> The script are rather short and don't have place for malware 20170922 06:35:22< wesnoth-discord-> And neither you nor I are going to be the ones filing bug after bug requesting feature backports. 20170922 06:36:08< Necrosporus> I think development/stable distinction is ok 20170922 06:36:18< Necrosporus> But unfortunately even 1.12 is already abandoned 20170922 06:36:32< Necrosporus> Not to mention 1.10, which is still actively used for MP 20170922 06:36:39< wesnoth-discord-> The bottomline is that removing the development stream is an extremely naïve approach and it's only going to cause more problems. 20170922 06:36:58< wesnoth-discord-> well, 1.10 is going to be turned off when 1.14 comes out, I'm pretty sure 20170922 06:37:03< wesnoth-discord-> That's why I said that the focus should be on motivating people to use them. 20170922 06:37:15< Necrosporus> Why are there people on 1.10 server at all? 20170922 06:37:34< wesnoth-discord-> I'll just say that I'm not convinced. I'm still in favor of removing the development stream. 20170922 06:37:44< wesnoth-discord-> It's the default version of Wesnoth on older Linux distributions. 20170922 06:37:45< Necrosporus> Are they just lazy or are there features in 1.10 they need which are missing in 12? 20170922 06:37:57< wesnoth-discord-> The current extant iOS port is also based on 1.10. 20170922 06:38:40< wesnoth-discord-> @jyrkive I wouldn't be concerned if the current release manager wasn't so easily swayed around tbh. 20170922 06:39:24< wesnoth-discord-> You could make a convincing argument that turning Wesnoth into a point-and-click puzzle game is a good idea and he'd actually approve the idea just to get things moving. 20170922 06:39:36< wesnoth-discord-> Necrosporus: part of it too, if I'm remembering correctly, is some people tried out 1.12 and then went back to 1.10 after how buggy the initial release was. 20170922 06:39:58< wesnoth-discord-> It especially helps when you start throwing around terms and concepts that he doesn't have the time or motivation to research. 20170922 06:40:49< wesnoth-discord-> You have no idea how difficult it was to get one such idea out of his head that would've made the job of the Wesnoth.org admins team a living nightmare. 20170922 06:41:53< Necrosporus> What idea? Just curious 20170922 06:42:11< wesnoth-discord-> I'm one of two people who know what the idea was. 20170922 06:42:32< wesnoth-discord-> We decided to never speak of it again. 20170922 06:42:33< Necrosporus> But for now 1.12 should be more stable than 1.10? At least it has a critical security bug fixed 20170922 06:42:34< wesnoth-discord-> @Pentarctagon The same was true for 1.10 vs. 1.8 and 1.8 vs. 1.6 (especially so). 20170922 06:42:58< Necrosporus> I did not try 1.6 much 20170922 06:43:11< Necrosporus> I think it's first version of Wesnoth I have seen though 20170922 06:43:25< Necrosporus> I have played through Tutorial part I and it was all 20170922 06:43:41< wesnoth-discord-> The average gamer has no idea why they should care about a security vulnerability unless you slap a POC in their face too early and get their systems compromised in the process. 20170922 06:44:19< wesnoth-discord-> I mean heck there were a lot of people still running 1.12.1 and 1.12.0 after 1.12.4 was out. 20170922 06:44:27< Necrosporus> 1.10 also has security vulnerability fixed but it has never got into a release 20170922 06:44:59< wesnoth-discord-> only 1 stable release is supported at a time 20170922 06:45:02< wesnoth-discord-> And the only reason why I couldn't ban them was because Linux distributions that backported the fix would continue to have their clients identify as whatever the original version was (e.g. 1.12.0 or 1.12.1). 20170922 06:45:27< Necrosporus> That's silly 20170922 06:45:35< Necrosporus> Why not to bump version number ? 20170922 06:45:39< wesnoth-discord-> When you're in a position like that you just learn to pick your battles and make it very clear that people are asking for trouble. 20170922 06:45:48< wesnoth-discord-> If you ask me, it's better not to bump the version number. 20170922 06:46:16< Necrosporus> Well, why they can't simply build 1.12.4 and replace 1.12.1 with it? 20170922 06:46:26< wesnoth-discord-> No. 20170922 06:46:27< wesnoth-discord-> For example, imagine if the add-ons specify which version they require (or even query it at runtime to turn features on/off). 20170922 06:46:28< Necrosporus> why do they need to backport it? 20170922 06:46:52< wesnoth-discord-> Because they want to make sure that no-one's introducing new bugs or breaking changes to the mix. 20170922 06:46:53< wesnoth-discord-> Because they want to make sure that no-one's introducing new bugs or breaking changes to the mix. 20170922 06:46:58< Necrosporus> Right. But it should only be different between major versions 20170922 06:47:06< wesnoth-discord-> And trust me, the Wesnoth devs are great at doing so both accidentally and on purpose. 20170922 06:47:17< wesnoth-discord-> @jyrkive There's already #ifver, so add-ons can already do that 20170922 06:47:27< Necrosporus> But stable releases are already supposed to not introduce bugs or breaking changes 20170922 06:47:30< wesnoth-discord-> Version 1.10.something randomly introduced a crapton of code for a revamped chat log dialog. 20170922 06:47:40< wesnoth-discord-> No package maintainer is going to review that. 20170922 06:48:46< Necrosporus> Perhaps wesnoth dev should stop doing that. once major version is even, releases should only fix bugs not change behavior unless it's absolutely necessary to fix bugs 20170922 06:49:04< wesnoth-discord-> Oh yeah. 20170922 06:49:13< wesnoth-discord-> The last time I told people to not do that you know what that got me? 20170922 06:49:20< wesnoth-discord-> It got me a ragequitting dev. 20170922 06:49:23< Necrosporus> Nope 20170922 06:49:55< Necrosporus> Weird... Why didn't the dev change development version instead? 20170922 06:50:08< wesnoth-discord-> Technically, it was a development version but it was already in feature freeze. 20170922 06:50:28< Necrosporus> Well... feature freeze is problematic 20170922 06:50:35< Necrosporus> Is 1.13 already feature-frozen? 20170922 06:50:40< wesnoth-discord-> no 20170922 06:50:41< wesnoth-discord-> It's only an option in theory. For one thing, there is a very long time between stable release series. It would be nice to get at least some features out faster than that. Not to mention that unintentional regressions are inevitable. 20170922 06:50:53< wesnoth-discord-> As far as I know, it's not even string-frozen because the current release manager doesn't grasp the concept. 20170922 06:51:19< wesnoth-discord-> 1.13.10 is planned to get the entire iOS port codebase added 20170922 06:51:28< wesnoth-discord-> Or why translators would be pissed off if they worked their asses off to get their team to 100% only to have their changes invalidated overnight. 20170922 06:52:45< wesnoth-discord-> It's very easy when you speak English to take your audience for granted and forget that the majority of the world either doesn't speak language or is comprised of very poor ESL speakers. 20170922 06:53:02< wesnoth-discord-> I was in the latter bunch when I first started playing Wesnoth. 20170922 06:53:40< Necrosporus> ESL? 20170922 06:53:47< wesnoth-discord-> English as Second Language. 20170922 06:56:23< wesnoth-discord-> Also, because I know how frustrating it is to wait for the next stable series (since people tend to do that because development releases are ludicrously buggy these days) I did make an exception for myself in 1.12.x and push the editor files MRU list feature into it. 20170922 06:57:04< wesnoth-discord-> (And also, strictly speaking, I pushed a huge campaignd refactor into 1.12 as well, but that kind of doesn't count because there's only one machine in the world where that code is really expected and needed to run.) 20170922 06:58:04< wesnoth-discord-> But I made it clear to everyone at the time that any API changes, whether in Lua, WML, or C++, were absolutely forbidden. 20170922 06:58:49< wesnoth-discord-> (We also made an exception for the Boost.Filesystem addition in 1.12 RC 3 (1.11.19) because it was needed to solve what was honestly the most bullcrap long-standing bug Wesnoth ever had.) 20170922 06:59:40< wesnoth-discord-> But all those things are just symptoms of a broken development model and a broken codebase, and not examples to follow. 20170922 06:59:54< wesnoth-discord-> Sadly, I'm sure there are people out there who've looked at us and decided "oh these guys know what they are doing". 20170922 07:02:52< wesnoth-discord-> To recap, Necrosporus's idea was that we would only make bug fixes in a stable release series in order to get distribution maintainers to backport our updates in full. Your examples make it clear that it's just not possible in practice. So, what's the point of even trying? Because distribution maintainers aren't going to backport our updates, I think we should allow ourselves to make other changes in stable release series. Within 20170922 07:02:53< wesnoth-discord-> reason, of course. We should still try our hardest to avoid regressions in stable releases. 20170922 07:04:25< wesnoth-discord-> As a content creator, I know the pain of having to juggle around a million #ifvers to workaround breakage or semantic changes or additions from development releases. 20170922 07:04:36< wesnoth-discord-> I wouldn't really want to work with that in a stable series. 20170922 07:05:09-!- VladimirSlavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.160] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 07:05:54< wesnoth-discord-> (And trust me, the worst part is encountering those #ifvers months later and trying to decide which ones to keep and which ones to drop, especially when you're rewriting code and don't have time to retest the affected bits on whichever versions required unconventional code paths.) 20170922 07:06:17< wesnoth-discord-> (I still have a backlog of those to clean-up before I can even start to think of porting my add-ons to 1.14.) 20170922 07:06:50< wesnoth-discord-> I agree that API changes - and especially changing what existing code does - should also be avoided in stable releases. 20170922 07:07:02< wesnoth-discord-> I agree that API changes - and especially changing what existing code does - should also be avoided in stable releases. 20170922 07:07:33< wesnoth-discord-> In that case I'm not sure what the point of contention is. 20170922 07:08:00< wesnoth-discord-> The fact that I disagree with Necrosporus's "only bug fixes, nothing else" idea. 20170922 07:08:29< wesnoth-discord-> Performance improvements, for example, would be fine for me.. 20170922 07:09:00< Necrosporus> unless they break existing stuff. Is it possible to guarantee ? 20170922 07:09:17< Necrosporus> Or at least check thoroughly enough 20170922 07:10:04< wesnoth-discord-> As I said, we should try hard to avoid regressions. 1.14.3 or whatever shouldn't introduce major refactoring or other risky changes. 20170922 07:13:30< wesnoth-discord-> I can agree with a performance improvement like "flatten a deep recursion loop and eliminate a million copy constructor calls in the process". 20170922 07:13:48< wesnoth-discord-> One like "replace SDL 2 with Foomatic* 9000"? Nope. 20170922 07:14:11< wesnoth-discord-> (yes i know what foomatic actually is i just wanted to say the name) 20170922 07:14:26< wesnoth-discord-> Same here. For example, I consider my recent "eliminate double redraws" commit way too risky for s atable release. 20170922 07:14:32< wesnoth-discord-> *stable 20170922 07:15:08< Necrosporus> Wouldn't same code work for both 1.12 and 1.13 without #ifver? 20170922 07:16:26< wesnoth-discord-> A little bird told me I need to change several things with #ifver because of some semantic changes. 20170922 07:16:32< wesnoth-discord-> I feel like part of the problem at this point, is how buggy 1.13 has been. There'd need to be some improvement to how it's done for changes to a stable release, or a lot more testing done, or something. Otherwise there's going to be a/b/c releases all over the place. 20170922 07:16:55-!- VladimirSlavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.160] has quit [Changing host] 20170922 07:16:55-!- VladimirSlavik [~vslavik@wesnoth/translator/VladimirSlavik] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 07:17:40< wesnoth-discord-> I think eliminating development releases would help. Their presence encourages developers to leave bugs in with the idea that "it's only a development release, the bug will be come by the time we reach the next stable". 20170922 07:17:55< wesnoth-discord-> *gone 20170922 07:18:26< Necrosporus> There is also OpenBSD example 20170922 07:18:50< Necrosporus> AFAIR they simply make releases from the code which is in their git without changes 20170922 07:19:03< Necrosporus> Or whatever VCS they use 20170922 07:19:03< wesnoth-discord-> (Anyway, I need to sleep before I decide to use my keyboard as a pillow.) 20170922 07:19:18< Necrosporus> They simply take its snapshots and call them releases twice a year 20170922 07:19:27< Necrosporus> Good night 20170922 07:19:36< wesnoth-discord-> I would hope so, but at the same time, there have been things like - I recompile, and the add-ons manager is inaccessible; the set_menu_item was refactored, and now doesn't even work at all; or when [music] was reimplemented in lua, and literally worked nowhere other than the in-game lua command console. 20170922 07:19:48< wesnoth-discord-> those sorts of bugs don't exactly inspire confidence 20170922 07:20:47< wesnoth-discord-> those are of the sort that I wonder if this code was tested at all 20170922 07:21:07< wesnoth-discord-> It should never have been done that way. A developer shouldn't commit known-broken code to master, ever. 20170922 07:21:53< wesnoth-discord-> At least, one should have the old and new codepaths in parallel witrh an advanced preference to switch between them, if using a feature branch isn't an option for some reason. 20170922 07:23:04< wesnoth-discord-> The OpenBSD policy, have master always in a state where you can release, is an excellent policy in my opinion. 20170922 07:24:04< wesnoth-discord-> And I don't know if other developers have noticed, but I give the absolute highest development priority to regressions I have caused. When I break something and don't notice it myself (and therefore it makes it into master), I then proceed to fix it ASAP. 20170922 07:24:12< wesnoth-discord-> IMO, that's how every developer should work. 20170922 07:25:06< Necrosporus> By the way do developers try to grep stuff? 20170922 07:25:09< wesnoth-discord-> and the OpenBSD policy on master would be a great improvement, imo. Wesnoth just seems to be very far from that right now. 20170922 07:25:49< Necrosporus> I mean sometimes simple grep command can be enough to grab some bugs 20170922 07:25:55< wesnoth-discord-> Necrosporus: Yes. I usually use Visual Studio "Find in Files" for that, but it's still essentially grepping. 20170922 07:26:09< Necrosporus> Or some script which for example collects all image references from all *.cfg files and check if images exist 20170922 07:26:33< Necrosporus> It should be doable 20170922 07:26:52< Necrosporus> Is it already done? 20170922 07:27:44< wesnoth-discord-> Well, in practice bugs come in so many shapes and forms that static analysis like that would only be able to find a tiny minority of them. 20170922 07:28:24< Necrosporus> it can catch bugs such as picture named as Unit.png while it's unit.png in code and that code working on developer machine if he is using windows, but not working elsewhere since most of filesystems are case sensitive 20170922 07:29:00< Necrosporus> But shouldn't at least trivial bugs such as this one caught? 20170922 07:29:24< Necrosporus> Without necessety for actual people to run into them 20170922 07:32:57< Necrosporus> So do we have a script which catches image not found problems? 20170922 07:33:07< Necrosporus> including mismatching register 20170922 07:33:13< Necrosporus> *case 20170922 07:37:47< wesnoth-discord-> Not that I know of, but I haven't ever thought to look for one either 20170922 08:02:49-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting from stoned server.] 20170922 08:03:05-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p4FC53858.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 08:05:32-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 08:05:44-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20170922 08:06:01-!- nore [~ncourant@sas.eleves.ens.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170922 08:06:35-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170922 08:06:51-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 08:07:19-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 08:10:24-!- nore [~ncourant@sas.eleves.ens.fr] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 08:14:24-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 08:29:02< wesnoth-discord-> Sorry for the delay, I had a meeting. In one point at Rovio, I wrote a simple static analyzer for levels of the Nibblers mobile game. It scans through the levels (there were a bit over 500 at the time I wrote it) and detects some severe errors which crash the game when such a level is loaded. 20170922 08:29:25< wesnoth-discord-> The reason that I wrote it is simple: because I ran into broken levels in practice. 20170922 08:30:16< wesnoth-discord-> It was a common problem because level designers incorrectly merged levels between branches (they sometimes committed broken JSON, or levels that used images that were only present in newer branches). 20170922 08:31:00< wesnoth-discord-> I think a "auto-detect missing images" script isn't necessary in Wesnoth because the problem just isn't common enough to warrant static analysis. 20170922 08:32:05< wesnoth-discord-> a missing image would crash the game? 20170922 08:32:21< wesnoth-discord-> Depending on where it was used, yes. 20170922 08:32:35< wesnoth-discord-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-fast 20170922 08:33:07< wesnoth-discord-> We didn't want to release the game with severe graphical mistakes anyway. Crashing made such problems impossible to miss. 20170922 08:40:09< zookeeper> no one here never heard of wmlscope? 20170922 08:40:40< wesnoth-discord-> Does wmlscope check that images exist? 20170922 08:41:39< zookeeper> well, seeing that it's for finding broken macro/image/sound/etc references, i'd imagine it must 20170922 08:42:26< wesnoth-discord-> Okay... and who named it? To me, the name "wmlscope" suggests that it's related to variable scope. 20170922 08:44:38< zookeeper> e s r, presumably 20170922 08:47:21-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170922 08:54:50-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:e866:4fc7:b365:6048] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 09:04:56< Necrosporus> zookeeper, could it detect non-existing unit types in recruit lists and stuff like that? 20170922 09:05:20< Necrosporus> or keys named with mistype 20170922 09:53:00-!- dobson` [~dobson@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170922 09:55:09-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:e866:4fc7:b365:6048] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 09:56:09-!- dobson [~dobson@68.ip-149-56-14.net] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 10:59:18-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 11:18:44-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170922 11:36:24-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 12:14:39< wesnoth-discord-> https://www.humblebundle.com/store/outlast-deluxe free 20170922 12:15:52< Necrosporus> How is it related to Wesnoth? 20170922 12:16:26< wesnoth-discord-> it isn't 20170922 12:16:33< wesnoth-discord-> but it's a free game 20170922 12:18:10< Necrosporus> Free as in Freedom? 20170922 12:18:15< Necrosporus> Or simply as price? 20170922 12:18:50< Necrosporus> I'm interested only if it could be compiled from source and has free license 20170922 12:24:51< wesnoth-discord-> simply as price 20170922 12:25:24< wesnoth-discord-> it was 25 Euro but now it's free for a limited time 20170922 12:27:26< loonycyborg> that doesn't seem to be even a strategy game, kinda offtopic here 20170922 12:27:40< wesnoth-discord-> ik 20170922 12:27:52< wesnoth-discord-> there is no off topic channel tho 20170922 12:28:07< wesnoth-discord-> I think posting such deals here is good if it's something exceptionally good. 20170922 12:28:20< wesnoth-discord-> But I think Outlast isn't notable enough. 20170922 12:28:54< Necrosporus> Well, perhaps if it were like Warzone 2100 20170922 12:28:55< wesnoth-discord-> last time it was the walking dead and monaco 20170922 12:28:57< Necrosporus> But it isn't 20170922 12:29:10< Necrosporus> Warzone 2100 is cooler 20170922 12:29:32< wesnoth-discord-> @Kriss7475 Right. And Walking Dead interested me enough that I utilized the offer. 20170922 12:34:47-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 12:37:30< Necrosporus> If somebody draws a wesnoth character, can the picture be licensed under proprietary license? 20170922 12:37:57< Necrosporus> Such as Konrad portrait (not in sense of wesnoth-inclusion-portrait, just portrait) 20170922 12:38:20< Necrosporus> Or some scene from some scenario from mainline campaign 20170922 12:39:16< wesnoth-discord-> Looks like it's actually a controversial subject. 20170922 12:39:17< wesnoth-discord-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_art#Copyright 20170922 12:39:57< Necrosporus> Or simply not licensed at all, such as an artist draws it on real canvas and for example puts into commercial art gallery 20170922 12:40:07< Necrosporus> I mean RL gallery 20170922 12:42:37< Necrosporus> What would you do if you came into an art museum and suddenly seen a scene from Wesnoth there? 20170922 12:43:21< wesnoth-discord-> I imagine the artists/writers would just be pleased. 😉 20170922 12:44:25< Necrosporus> Though would a scene from wesnoth be recognizable anyway from a random fantasy scene? 20170922 12:47:08-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has left #wesnoth ["PART #archlinux :ISON Rogach NickServ "] 20170922 13:08:40-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170922 13:11:36-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 13:33:57-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 14:43:23-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 14:46:27< wesnoth-discord-> Didn't neorice make a lot of the pixel art for this game? 20170922 14:47:53< wesnoth-discord-> Huh, guess not 20170922 14:48:05< wesnoth-discord-> For some reason I thought he was a core contributor 20170922 14:53:48-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 15:00:59< elias> he was... 10 years ago 20170922 15:04:55< zookeeper> there's not much left of what he did back then. the drakes are, though. 20170922 15:15:08-!- Vorpal [~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 15:15:25-!- Vorpal [~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 15:19:15-!- Vorpal [~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 15:27:25-!- _Anna_ [~Anna@adsl-118.37.6.1.tellas.gr] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 15:27:29-!- _Anna_ [~Anna@adsl-118.37.6.1.tellas.gr] has left #wesnoth [] 20170922 15:38:47-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854B15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 15:49:40-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 15:50:49-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 16:03:47< wesnoth-discord-> If you want a stable master, don't allow pushing to the branch 20170922 16:04:32< wesnoth-discord-> There's more to it than that but you have to start somewhere 20170922 16:19:56-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170922 17:14:51-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854B15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 17:24:36-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170922 17:27:22< wesnoth-discord-> IMO, it would be enough if developers just 1) tested changes before committing and 2) prioritized fixing their own regressions (preferably to the extent that no other changes are allowed until all regressions are fixed). 20170922 17:27:59< wesnoth-discord-> Vultraz in particular tends to break stuff ofte, unfortunately. 20170922 17:28:05< wesnoth-discord-> *often 20170922 17:33:19< wesnoth-discord-> Sure 20170922 17:33:46< wesnoth-discord-> Not committing to master is a way to encourage that though. 20170922 17:35:21< Necrosporus> I work with my local git repo. In there I first make changes, then test and fix them until they work as intended then commit 20170922 17:35:48< Necrosporus> Well, I don't really need git, but just in case if I did break something git allows a rollback 20170922 17:57:02-!- HeyCitizen [~HeyCitize@sttrpq3809w-lp130-01-70-51-189-164.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 20170922 17:57:04-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 17:58:56-!- VladimirSlavik [~vslavik@wesnoth/translator/VladimirSlavik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170922 18:11:27-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 18:19:55< wesnoth-discord-> News: We're skipping the 1.13.9 development release. We tagged it, but an extremely severe bug was found (namely, connecting to the MP server with it is impossible). 20170922 18:20:03< wesnoth-discord-> We'll release 1.13.10 instead. 20170922 18:20:10< wesnoth-discord-> ... 20170922 18:20:24< wesnoth-discord-> How on Earth did we miss that 20170922 18:21:34< wesnoth-discord-> The bug only occurs in releases (because the MP servers for development releases and Git master are distinct). It wasn't possible to find it before tagging. 20170922 18:22:24< shadowm> It is possible to connect to the development release server manually though. 20170922 18:22:39< shadowm> And to the stable server (but obviously you won't be able to play anything at all). 20170922 18:37:08< Necrosporus> Why it didn't occur in 1.13.8? 20170922 18:44:53< wesnoth-discord-> Because the offending commit https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/50294e8b1e4a81c1c6b4d9bf2ca69c77a8405a80 first landed in 1.13.9. 20170922 18:59:14-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:b86f:6322:f808:2769] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 19:12:19-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p4FC53858.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20170922 19:12:19-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 19:25:55-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20170922 20:01:05-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 20:01:12-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 20:36:27-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854B15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 20:51:14-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20170922 21:34:08-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20170922 21:46:42-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20170922 21:55:06< wesnoth-discord-> made two abilities that stop damage from being dealt by certain damage types 20170922 21:55:10< wesnoth-discord-> -> one of them works, one of them doesn't 20170922 21:55:16< wesnoth-discord-> even though the code is the same for both 20170922 21:55:19< wesnoth-discord-> I love programming 20170922 22:34:24-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54854B15.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20170922 22:45:37-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:b86f:6322:f808:2769] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20170922 23:17:17-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20170922 23:17:25-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20170922 23:50:19-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth --- Log closed Sat Sep 23 00:00:06 2017