--- Log opened Thu Oct 12 00:00:31 2017
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20171012 01:18:35< irker454> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ac5592cd109f / Doxyfile changelog players_changelog src/wesconfig.h: Post-release version bump https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ac5592cd109f4cebaf4fa6656105302bdaabfe77
20171012 01:18:35< irker454> wesnoth: Vultraz wesnoth: 27bd77b655a4 tagged as 1.13.10
20171012 01:18:54-!- vultraz changed the topic of #wesnoth-dev to: 1.13.10 tagged, releasing "soon" | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Discord Server: https://discord.gg/tSmJS2E | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
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20171012 03:18:59< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15266 (1.13.10 - 27bd77b : sigurdfdragon): The build passed.
20171012 03:18:59< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/286809577
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20171012 03:54:17< coincoyote> hey there, just wanted to let everyone know about the latest and greatest development to hit the music world, VOISE https://www.voise.com
20171012 03:54:18< coincoyote> https://trello.com/b/VzHr9Nov/voise-transparent-roadmap
20171012 03:54:48< coincoyote> based on the latest ethereum smart contract technology VOISE offers a market for artists to promote and sell 100% of their work on their terms
20171012 03:55:00< coincoyote> it's also a free market
20171012 03:55:40< coincoyote> everyone and anyone can participate, even the transactions are processed by the people
20171012 03:55:41< coincoyote> no central authority
20171012 03:55:53< coincoyote> VOISE
20171012 03:56:05< coincoyote> going to be a huge market
20171012 03:56:17< coincoyote> huge
20171012 03:57:55< coincoyote> unlike other music platforms that restrict users to pay per click or steam only services VOISE is offering a more traditional approach
20171012 03:58:09< coincoyote> you sample, you purhase and you get a copy to do what you wish with it
20171012 03:58:17< coincoyote> like free software
20171012 03:59:12< coincoyote> still a good time to join in a show your support for the project, VOISE launches in just 7 days time
20171012 03:59:29< coincoyote> don't say I didn't let you know about it early on
20171012 03:59:39< coincoyote> free market
20171012 03:59:45< coincoyote> that's what's important
20171012 03:59:54< coincoyote> barter on a free market on your own terms
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20171012 07:28:35< irker454> wesnoth: galegosimpatico wesnoth:master 45d69970a70c / src/ (menu_events.cpp mouse_events.cpp mouse_events.hpp): Usability improvement, mouse interaction. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/45d69970a70cb004d1787c2902f177e973c80b73
20171012 07:28:37< irker454> wesnoth: galegosimpatico wesnoth:master 640ffe42d4a4 / src/mouse_events.cpp: Adjust block indent. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/640ffe42d4a4da5b5f2283bca2482f317b4ad4da
20171012 07:30:11< vn971> maybe ban "coincoyote" so it won't join again, at least under the same nick? IDK if spam bots do that.
20171012 07:30:55< JyrkiVesterinen> I'd guess that the spam was network-wide.
20171012 07:31:24< JyrkiVesterinen> If some kind of ban is needed, it should be from whole freenode and not just this channel.
20171012 07:31:43< vn971> JyrkiVesterinen: makes sense. Ok.
20171012 09:22:55< zookeeper> JyrkiVesterinen, planning on adding the performance stuff to the release announcement, or should someone else do it?
20171012 09:23:36< JyrkiVesterinen> I don't really know how to write it, so I'd prefer if someone else did it.
20171012 09:26:47< zookeeper> right, okay. everything pretty much fits under a blanket statement like "the game runs a lot better and smoother now, but CPU usage might be higher", though, or am i forgetting something?
20171012 09:27:25< JyrkiVesterinen> Such a blanket statement would indeed work.
20171012 09:29:16< vn971> zookeeper: will the game run faster or slower for people that have slow/old computers?
20171012 09:29:37< JyrkiVesterinen> Faster.
20171012 09:45:08< vultraz> the performance nears a_r
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20171012 13:25:24< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, Getfinalpathnamebyhandle will work for checking correctness of case?
20171012 13:32:33< JyrkiVesterinen> Yeah, looks like it.
20171012 13:32:33< JyrkiVesterinen> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa364962(v=vs.85).aspx
20171012 13:33:08< JyrkiVesterinen> One thing to notice is that it requires Windows Vista or above (Wesnoth still supports XP), so it needs to be called via GetProcAddress.
20171012 13:42:12< vultraz> well, not *really*. We decided to only advertise 1.13 support for Win 7 SP1+
20171012 13:45:18< vultraz> see the system requirements for the dev version on the homepage
20171012 13:45:29< vultraz> and we recommend windows 10
20171012 14:06:24< Necrosporus> I don't think it's a good idea recommending windows 10
20171012 14:09:23< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, so we can implement case sensitive loading of resources for windows as well as stripping \ ?
20171012 14:09:46< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes, it can be implemented if someone bothers.
20171012 14:13:20< vn971> // I'm a Linux user myself, but I'd be glad to see win7+ advertisements, not win10+. This is because there were a lot of talks of win10 having too much control over the user (read spying), so advertising it wouldn't do any good. Know a lot of folks who refrain from win10, too (but use win7), they'd be very unhappy to see win10+ requirements. Probably they won't bother trying to install at all.
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20171012 14:17:41< Necrosporus> AI0867, did you try Getfinalpathnamebyhandle ?
20171012 14:27:24< AI0867> I didn't know that function existed
20171012 14:39:02< loonycyborg> vultraz: I've uploaded the tarball to f.w.o and sourceforge
20171012 14:39:38< Necrosporus> Nice
20171012 14:40:03< Necrosporus> Did anybody run full testing sequence yet?
20171012 14:40:21< vultraz> Good god, people. I said *recommend* not *require*
20171012 14:40:40< Necrosporus> I know, still I don't like it
20171012 14:41:02< vultraz> Like windows 10 or not, it’s still the most up-to-date version of the OS and we can’t just pretend it doesn’t exist
20171012 14:41:09< Necrosporus> Is there any particular reasons to prefer w10 over w7?
20171012 14:41:47< vultraz> ......
20171012 14:42:01< loonycyborg> better recommend win7 or win10, because win10 is still controversial 
20171012 14:42:21< loonycyborg> if you say "win7 or win10" you'll satify everyone
20171012 14:42:27< loonycyborg> *satisfy
20171012 14:42:35< Necrosporus> why not to write "w7 or later"?
20171012 14:42:45< loonycyborg> because it includes w8
20171012 14:42:48< Necrosporus> In both "recommended" and "required" field
20171012 14:42:55< Necrosporus> And won't wesnoth work with w8?
20171012 14:43:00< vultraz> It will
20171012 14:43:05< vultraz> But no one recommends windows 8
20171012 14:43:15< galegosimpatico> http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey states 45.37% R10 vs 41.01% R7.
20171012 14:43:34< galegosimpatico> R8.1 lags far behind at 5.23%.
20171012 14:43:42< vultraz> Hehe
20171012 14:43:53< vultraz> Seriously, we say the game works in windows 7
20171012 14:44:10< Necrosporus> Oh, I have an idea
20171012 14:44:11< vultraz> Most of our players are on windows 10 anyway last I checked
20171012 14:44:51< Necrosporus> Write "Required: Windows 7 SP1 or later, GNU/Linux ..., MacOS X ...", and "Recommended: GNU/Linux ..."
20171012 14:45:34< vultraz> ..... what the fuck
20171012 14:45:57< Necrosporus> ... means version
20171012 14:46:14< Necrosporus> I'm not sure what version of Linux wesnoth requires
20171012 14:46:25< vultraz> Why would we list Linux first in one column and not the other
20171012 14:47:43< Necrosporus> Write "Required: GNU/Linux ver, MacOS X ver, Windows 7 SP1 or later", and "Recommended: GNU/Linux ver"
20171012 14:47:54< Necrosporus> * corrected
20171012 14:48:00< vultraz> Again
20171012 14:48:05< vultraz> Why would we do that
20171012 14:48:33< vultraz> That makes literally no sense
20171012 14:48:43< vultraz> Why would we only recommend a Linux version
20171012 14:48:46< Necrosporus> Because writing "Recommended Windows 10" ticks off some people
20171012 14:49:00< vultraz> I DO NOT CARE
20171012 14:49:16< vultraz> THEY CAN BE AS TICKED OFF AS THEY WANT
20171012 14:49:57< Necrosporus> I see your point. No need for caps...
20171012 14:49:58< vultraz> I really do not care at all.
20171012 14:50:42< vultraz> I’m sorry.
20171012 14:50:50< vultraz> But this is an absurd point to be debating
20171012 14:52:31< vultraz> If someone has literally nothing better to do than get all worked up whether a game they discovered *recommends* - not even *requires*, recommends - an OS they don’t like then they should rethink their priorities
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20171012 14:53:56< vultraz> If they don’t like windows 10 and use 7 then great! We support it!
20171012 14:54:29< vultraz> But if they get all in a huff and decide they’re not going to download wesnoth because it recommends windows 10 then that is just absurd
20171012 14:55:20< vultraz> And not our problem
20171012 14:56:24< Necrosporus> I sort of agree with that. But there is another point. Some distribution would not include projects which recommend non-free software in their repositories (or would patch it to remove recomendation). Though this probably doesn't apply to Wesnoth, unless "Recommended " thing is repeated in ingame docs
20171012 14:57:09< loonycyborg> then this is even more irrelevant. since win7 and win10 are equally non-free
20171012 14:57:17< Necrosporus> Yeah
20171012 14:57:25< vultraz> I care even less about those people
20171012 14:57:44< vultraz> The FOSS extremists can shut up sit down and be quiet
20171012 14:58:23< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, it's why my second thought was to remove "Windows" and "MacOS" lines from "Recommended" completely
20171012 14:58:43< vultraz> I’m not going to bow down on the alter of RMS’s absurd extremists views
20171012 14:58:47< vultraz> Nor is the project
20171012 14:59:53< vn971> I hear a lot of holywar here, but I still didn't get why one version is _recommended_ over the other. Is it the same as just recommending people to upgrade? Or wesnoth will actually perform differently on those versions, and we test win10 more extensively?
20171012 15:00:29< Necrosporus> vn971, probably latter
20171012 15:00:47< Necrosporus> vultraz, and jyrki use w10, as far as I understand
20171012 15:01:04< loonycyborg> atm I'm using windows only in virtual machines
20171012 15:01:13< loonycyborg> I have winxp and win7
20171012 15:01:26< Necrosporus> Did you test last release in xp?
20171012 15:01:49< loonycyborg> yes, I always do brief testing after making win binary
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20171012 15:02:05< vultraz> All of our devs are windows devs at the moment and unless I’m mistaken we all have windows 10 in some form
20171012 15:02:09< loonycyborg> starting a campaign and logging on mp and addon server server
20171012 15:02:18< Necrosporus> also you wanted to update libhistory and maybe some other libs. What libs has been upgraded since .8?
20171012 15:02:18< vultraz> I could be wrong
20171012 15:02:34< loonycyborg> you are wrong, read what I said above
20171012 15:02:43< Necrosporus> vultraz, AI is using GNU/Linux exclusively
20171012 15:02:52< vultraz> He’s not really an active dev
20171012 15:03:03< loonycyborg> he got active lately
20171012 15:03:08< Necrosporus> I think celmin is probably using macos
20171012 15:03:14< vultraz> Not anymore
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20171012 15:05:00< vultraz> Look, no, wesnoth doesn’t perform any better on windows 10 and as far as I know there’s currently no benefit to using 10. But it’s still a good idea to recommend the latest version of windows simply because it is likely the most secure and its good to promote that. I know windows 7 still gets security updates, but still.
20171012 15:06:27< loonycyborg> Necrosporus: I didn't update anything yet, I've only uploaded source tarball so far
20171012 15:06:39< loonycyborg> will work on windows binary later a bit
20171012 15:08:50< vultraz> While wesnoth will still work on XP, we’re no longer mentioning it since it’s past EOL and no longer supported. Certainly not a good idea to point players to an unsupported OS
20171012 15:09:23< vultraz> Therefor, if someone makes a change in master that means the game no longer works with XP, no big loss
20171012 15:11:58< loonycyborg> actually I don't think RMS works as example of an extremist, like he's not even blowing up bombs or something
20171012 15:11:58< Necrosporus> Why do you think nobody uses Redhat 9.x, MacOS 10.2 or slackware 10 which came out in same time as Windows XP, but Windows XP still gets some traction, even if not much?
20171012 15:12:22< loonycyborg> because upgrading windows costs money :P
20171012 15:13:01< loonycyborg> of course RMS got some quirks, but so did Steve Jobs..
20171012 15:13:36< loonycyborg> Some insistent terminology doesn't make one extremist, asserting so is just silly
20171012 15:15:20< Necrosporus> I can argue from different point of view: "extremists" means simply somebody who has extreme views. It isn't necessarily bad and can be even good. Such as somebody thinks that nobody should ever use anything but UTF-8 is a sort of extremism too, even if he's right. So being extremist in some areas, such as racism stuff is indeed bad, but when it's in software it could be good
20171012 15:16:19< Necrosporus> For example, Wesnoth is extremistic in WML files, as it does not support anything else but UTF-8
20171012 15:16:39< Necrosporus> (and I fully agree that's a sane thing to do)
20171012 15:20:57< vn971> I would personally go as far as putting Linux as the first entry in supports/recommends/whatever lists. Because I like this free OS. But then again, other people like different things. Some people do like Win, for example, not because of the monopoly attitude, but for its L&F. These guys have the full right to promote what they like. Considering most wesnoth devs are on Win, the thing I say about ain't gonna happen.
20171012 15:23:15< Necrosporus> vultraz, how are conflicts resolved when some dev wants wesnoth behave in one way and another wants it to behave in other way?
20171012 15:25:06< vultraz> Whoever’s in charge gets the final say.
20171012 15:25:13< vultraz> That happens to be me .
20171012 15:25:33< vultraz> loonycyborg: read some of the stuff on his site and tell me he’s not an extremist
20171012 15:27:00< Necrosporus> He is political activist, that's true
20171012 15:27:06< loonycyborg> vultraz: I know his personal ideology. Calling it extremist would involve watering down term "exremist"
20171012 15:27:12< loonycyborg> extreme watering down
20171012 15:27:39< vultraz> IIRC he's also the same person who once said child porn and necrophelia should be legal. So.
20171012 15:27:56< Necrosporus> And what?
20171012 15:28:07< Necrosporus> Everyone has right to his opinion
20171012 15:28:30< loonycyborg> Who cares about that anyway. He was probably quoted out of context.
20171012 15:28:36< Necrosporus> As long as he does not show those porn into other's browsers or force others to become necrophiles it's not extremism
20171012 15:29:06< Necrosporus> * shove
20171012 15:29:07< vultraz> .......................................
20171012 15:29:48< vultraz> are you fucking kidding me right now
20171012 15:30:26-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+o vultraz] by ChanServ
20171012 15:30:30< Necrosporus> oh
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20171012 15:30:55< Necrosporus> I didn't say that I agree with that
20171012 15:30:58< loonycyborg> So was he incorrectly quoted out of context? unless proven otherwise I'll assume so
20171012 15:31:24< Soliton> vultraz: maybe you want to take a deep breath and cut down on the cursing?
20171012 15:31:45<@vultraz> pretty sure it was him but I do know, no, it is not "out of context".
20171012 15:32:43< loonycyborg> this is done very often to rms
20171012 15:33:04<@vultraz> I'm not going to dig up the disgusting blog post.
20171012 15:34:12< zookeeper> someone has to because now i want to read it
20171012 15:35:32<@vultraz> Necrosporus: I am only going to say this once since I think you aren't a native English speaker. Something as serious is that is not something you're "entitled to an opinion" on if that "opinion" is that it's ok. If you think that you're wrong, period, and anyone with that "opinion" is not welcome in this channel.
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20171012 15:53:44< Soliton> is the wesnoth developer hierarchy documented anywhere? or whoever is in charge?
20171012 15:54:47< loonycyborg> I don't think so
20171012 15:55:49< Soliton> i'm kinda curious when that was established. i must have missed it.
20171012 15:59:10< loonycyborg> I assume it works on priciple of opensource meritocracy
20171012 15:59:20< loonycyborg> *principle
20171012 16:00:25< Soliton> that's how it used to work afaik. it seems to have changed.
20171012 16:04:27< Necrosporus> There is now Wesnoth foundation, which consists of Dave, vultraz and somebody else
20171012 16:04:43< Necrosporus> They decide stuff about legaleze and finances
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20171012 17:46:36< irker442> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 37225d24eaa5 / changelog src/filesystem.hpp src/filesystem_boost.cpp src/wesnoth.cpp: Case sensitive file paths on Windows https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/37225d24eaa52183f897e223dc3847bf89c89282
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20171012 17:56:49< sevu> reading logs became so fun recently
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20171012 19:02:03< sevu> the ruined elvish castles aren't mentioned in the changelog
20171012 19:02:52< sevu> I think the changelog doesn't get modified post-release? where could they bementiond for umc creators instead?
20171012 19:04:21< zookeeper> in the release announcement?
20171012 19:05:10< JyrkiVesterinen> We are not in post-release stage. Master is again free for post-1.13.10 changes.
20171012 19:05:25< sevu> hasn't been done in the past, but it would be a good place
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20171012 19:10:54< irker442> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 6cd57423701f / data/campaigns/The_Hammer_of_Thursagan/units/ (Dwarvish_Annalist.cfg Dwarvish_Loremaster.cfg Dwarvish_Witness.cfg): ThoT: Annalists use flails, not morning stars https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6cd57423701f1fa1936c27a2c13f76a5249cf4a2
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20171012 19:33:44< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15271 (master - 37225d2 : Jyrki Vesterinen): The build was broken.
20171012 19:33:44< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/287166695
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20171012 19:40:46< sigurdfd> why not just have the minimum operating system requirements be identical to the recommened operating system requirements and be done with it?
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20171012 19:41:36< JyrkiVesterinen> As far as I can tell, the point is that since most developers are on Windows 10, that's the version on which you can expect Wesnoth to work best.
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20171012 21:19:09< shadowm> Soliton: vultraz has the last say on anything that concerns the project as release manager. That's the only thing I'm going to say on the matter.
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--- Log closed Fri Oct 13 00:00:32 2017