--- Log opened Fri Oct 13 00:00:32 2017
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20171013 00:28:19< irker790> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 81ea43311705 / data/core/macros/utils.cfg: Macros: Fix typo https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/81ea43311705d2ad4423e618fbe3dec49083f146
20171013 00:28:19< irker790> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master ab66b85120b1 / data/campaigns/Secrets_of_the_Ancients/scenarios/ (07_Meeting_of_the_Minds.cfg 13_Together_Again.cfg 17_Mortality.cfg): SotA: Use Cutscene_Minimal theme for dialog only scenarios https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ab66b85120b1e091c137165eacaaa06c1d779c1d
20171013 01:03:54< irker790> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master d024900cd0bd / data/campaigns/Two_Brothers/scenarios/02_The_Chase.cfg: AToTB S02: Keep unit alive to fit dialog and prevent scream at scene end https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d024900cd0bd402786612ce3e0e3467ae0d60390
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20171013 01:29:07< irker790> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 41a3bf97f9c9 / src/addon/info.cpp: Addon/Info: removed now-unnecessary icon fallbacks https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/41a3bf97f9c9202a15ef34b324c4ecc237cca914
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20171013 01:35:06< irker790> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 5e7ca34f1e51 / src/filesystem_boost.cpp: Fixup 37225d2 (unused parameter when not building on Windows) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5e7ca34f1e511ae61f293f010459255d37ea2f43
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20171013 02:34:50< sevu> When you make screenshots for the release announcement, can you upload a few in 16:9 format too? The might come in handy for appstream
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20171013 02:56:31< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/287342759
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20171013 04:30:23< sevu> gnome-software, if we supply an appdata file http://picpaste.com/pics/appstream.1507868340.png 
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20171013 11:09:30< irker590> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master c2393a55bdfd / data/gui/window/game_stats.cfg: Game Stats: made image columns share width https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c2393a55bdfd4864bfb2c27105ea51646cc9fadc
20171013 11:09:31< irker590> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master c63b1a2f2a2c / src/gui/dialogs/game_stats.cpp: Game Stats: tweaked controller text display https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c63b1a2f2a2c9443f5af08d81615c6c16a8740b5
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20171013 13:15:32< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/287511558
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20171013 15:35:34< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release Alexander van Gessel d413f07: Convert case check to GetFinalPathNameByHandle Failed
20171013 15:35:34< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/AI0867/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-windows-case-check-11
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20171013 15:39:19< Appveyor> wesnoth - Debug Alexander van Gessel d413f07: Convert case check to GetFinalPathNameByHandle Failed
20171013 15:39:19< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/AI0867/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-windows-case-check-11
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20171013 15:47:34< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release Alexander van Gessel 942989f: Convert case check to GetFinalPathNameByHandle Failed
20171013 15:47:34< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/AI0867/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-windows-case-check-13
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20171013 15:55:34< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release Alexander van Gessel b9646a6: Convert case check to GetFinalPathNameByHandle Failed
20171013 15:55:34< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/AI0867/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-windows-case-check-14
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20171013 16:00:14< loonycyborg> Necrosporus: what's the proper way to repro the issue with libhistory in wesnoth?
20171013 16:00:54< loonycyborg> I made a windows build with libhistory from readline-7
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20171013 16:08:26< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, type "Hello World!" or something
20171013 16:08:48< Necrosporus> Look in https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1708
20171013 16:10:19< Necrosporus> Actually it was not really a bug, it's just libhistory was too generous when looking for ! meaning history substition
20171013 16:10:52< Necrosporus> In never releases it doesn't consider ! in the end of " " quoted string as history expansion
20171013 16:11:44< Necrosporus> "Hello!world" will still generate an error
20171013 16:12:03< loonycyborg> how do you summon lua console again?
20171013 16:12:25< Necrosporus> ~ in debug mode ( start as wesnoth -dt for example )
20171013 16:12:54< Necrosporus> If started in normal mode, open a scenario and type :debug
20171013 16:14:47< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, try also with ! in beginning of word, so you will see if history expansion is working at all. There was a patch to disable it, but I'm not sure whenever it's a good idea. Somebody might find ! expansion useful. I personally never use it
20171013 16:17:05< Necrosporus> If lua uses ! followed by other characters than space or quote, it might still be good idea to disable expansion
20171013 16:19:26< loonycyborg> I should input Hello!world as command or try to tab expand it?
20171013 16:20:18< Necrosporus> ! expanded without need for tab
20171013 16:20:37< Necrosporus> Input some valid lua command with ! in front of letter
20171013 16:21:11< Necrosporus> though probably just hello!world will also trigger attempt of expansion and will error before lua has a chance to determine it's not a valid command
20171013 16:22:47< loonycyborg> hello!world results in !world: event not found
20171013 16:24:17< loonycyborg> if I try it as command
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20171013 16:24:41< travis-ci> AI0867/wesnoth#41 (windows-case-check - d413f07 : Alexander van Gessel): The build has errored.
20171013 16:24:41< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/287614758
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20171013 16:30:27< loonycyborg> Necrosporus: putting in the command in bug report works fine
20171013 16:30:31< loonycyborg> without event not found
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20171013 16:33:45< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release Alexander van Gessel 8fecf8a: Convert case check to GetFinalPathNameByHandle Failed
20171013 16:33:45< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/AI0867/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-windows-case-check-15
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20171013 16:33:56< Necrosporus> loonycyborg, it means that libhistory is functional and updated. Great.
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20171013 16:51:53< JyrkiVesterinen> AI0867: why are you making your own implementation of Windows case check?
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20171013 16:52:18< JyrkiVesterinen> I already pushed my implementation to master: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/37225d24eaa52183f897e223dc3847bf89c89282
20171013 17:05:28< celmin|snooze> So now we need a Mac version of that...
20171013 17:06:02< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, we don't really *need* one. It would be nice to have, but that's all.
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20171013 17:08:35< vultraz> celmin|snooze: or UNUSED, yes
20171013 17:08:40< celmin|snooze> Yeah that.
20171013 17:08:57< celmin|snooze> So what're we going to do about those two PRs about valid characters in a file?
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20171013 17:09:41< celmin|snooze> Can we merve 2077 and close 2070?
20171013 17:09:41< JyrkiVesterinen> I'm still in favor of merging #2077 and closing #2070.
20171013 17:09:43< celmin|snooze> ^merge
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20171013 17:14:11< Necrosporus> I think that it's better to add '() to #2070 and close #2077
20171013 17:14:27< celmin|snooze> Yeah we all know how you feel on this subject.
20171013 17:14:52< Necrosporus> There will only be 3 affected add-ons, which are probably abandoned
20171013 17:15:20< Necrosporus> And there will be some affected addons with 2077 as well
20171013 17:15:50< celmin|snooze> That's really not the issue here.
20171013 17:17:03< JyrkiVesterinen> I would be willing to *accept* breaking a low number of add-ons, but I still would rather not do it.
20171013 17:17:49< Necrosporus> Then good luck implementing proper unicode handling. I has been reading about it recently. It seems to be very hard to handle it properly
20171013 17:18:36< JyrkiVesterinen> We "handle" Unicode by merely passing file paths to the OS unmodified (or converting them from UTF-8 to UTF-16 on Windows).
20171013 17:18:53< JyrkiVesterinen> It's not exactly difficult.
20171013 17:19:50< Necrosporus> And are you sure that simply converting UTF-8 to UTF-16 is enough to ensure correctness?
20171013 17:20:07< JyrkiVesterinen> Of course it is.
20171013 17:20:58< Necrosporus> What about normalization?
20171013 17:22:09< Necrosporus> in file path on MacOS é would be e + combining ´
20171013 17:22:26< Necrosporus> In file it would be é as single code point
20171013 17:23:08< Necrosporus> Did anybody test whenever file paths with extended latin are handled correctly on Mac? I doubt it
20171013 17:24:22< JyrkiVesterinen> According to Microsoft's documentation: "There is no need to perform any Unicode normalization on path and file name strings for use by the Windows file I/O API functions because the file system treats path and file names as an opaque sequence of WCHARs."
20171013 17:24:55< JyrkiVesterinen> AFAIK, that's the same as the behavior on Linux, which treats file names as opaque byte sequences.
20171013 17:25:04< Necrosporus> Yes, that's true
20171013 17:26:13< Necrosporus> OK, let's imagine that there an add-on which has é in WML as single character, but file which it refers to stored in file system as e´
20171013 17:26:37< Necrosporus> For example, it was received from mac user in archive
20171013 17:27:07< Necrosporus> According to what you say it will still be stored as e´ in Windows
20171013 17:28:10< Necrosporus> Probably macOS file access function will transcode é into e´ when they receive it and file will be opened correctly (I'm not sure about that)
20171013 17:28:13< Soliton> perhaps make a bug report with an actual test case instead of imagining things.
20171013 17:28:43< Necrosporus> Does anybody here have Mac to test it?
20171013 17:29:03< JyrkiVesterinen> It's still an almost theoretical problem. Not important enough to warrant outright disallowing Unicode in add-on filenames.
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20171013 17:30:24< JyrkiVesterinen> Not every add-on is going to use Unicode in filenames, and not every such file is going to be accessed from WML, and not every special character has multiple representations in Unicode, and not every such character is represented in unnormalized form in the file name.
20171013 17:31:53< Necrosporus> I think that if we try to make sure that, windows users use correct capitalization and path separators and linux users don't put files in same name in different caps in one directory, then it's better to also make sure that mac users won't upload add-ons which only work on Mac because Windows and GNU/Linux do not perform normalization of unicode on file access
20171013 17:32:26< JyrkiVesterinen> Messing up capitalization and path separators is very easy.
20171013 17:32:55< JyrkiVesterinen> Whereas you're very unlikely to run into Unicode problems without explicitly trying to.
20171013 17:32:59< Necrosporus> I didnt test it but I'm pretty sure that messing up normalization on mac is even easier
20171013 17:33:19< JyrkiVesterinen> It still requires you to use Unicode in file names to begin with.
20171013 17:33:33< JyrkiVesterinen> Something that you yourself confirmed to be extremely rare.
20171013 17:34:07< Necrosporus> It could became more common after steam release, unless precautions are taken
20171013 17:34:24< Necrosporus> Also there is only one significant case of unicode in filenames left
20171013 17:34:26< vn971> I'd personally try to approach this question not "whether we can", but "whether we should". For me, having arbitrary unicode will just hurt readability / maintainability, and that's about it.
20171013 17:34:28< JyrkiVesterinen> I believe it would still remain very uncommon.
20171013 17:35:18< JyrkiVesterinen> For me, backwards compatibility is much more important than "whether we should".
20171013 17:35:21< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, anyway, another problem is as vn971 said, that unicode names will be unreadable for people with different language background
20171013 17:35:23< vn971> so yes, I believe we actually can implement this, and it'll work. But there would still be weird conrner cases. And most importantly, addons using unicode would still be hard to modify.
20171013 17:35:41< JyrkiVesterinen> Again, if we were making the initial implementation of the add-on system now, then I'd be in favor of disallowing Unicode.
20171013 17:35:55< JyrkiVesterinen> But that ship has sailed now.
20171013 17:36:22< JyrkiVesterinen> Add-on file names are not supposed to be readable.
20171013 17:37:18< vn971> // if there would be a vote, I'd voted to restrict filenames (based on the statistics posted on the github issue).
20171013 17:37:48< Soliton> why not based on actual issues?
20171013 17:38:01< vn971> Soliton: is this a question to me?
20171013 17:38:07< Soliton> yes.
20171013 17:38:56< vn971> Soliton: what do you mean, then? I saw the number of affected add-ons, that's all I say (posted in comments of the github issue).
20171013 17:39:19< JyrkiVesterinen> It means how many add-ons right now face problems because of Unicode filenames.
20171013 17:40:01< JyrkiVesterinen> When it comes to blacklisting other characters, one problematic add-on was found: Potato Era can't be installed on Windows because it uses ? in a file name.
20171013 17:40:53< vn971> Here is a VERY detailed comment (with a lot of real background work) about the current usage of unicode in file names: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/2070#issuecomment-334372552
20171013 17:41:27< vultraz> I think if any addon can’t be installed on a platform - especially windows - it’s a problem
20171013 17:41:39< celmin|snooze> ^
20171013 17:42:49< Necrosporus> vultraz, I think that any addons uploaded from mac and having extended latin in resource references (such as image=... or {...} ) will be broken on Linux and Windows
20171013 17:42:57< Necrosporus> I didn't test it
20171013 17:43:19< Necrosporus> Can anybody check it?
20171013 17:43:29< Necrosporus> Maybe wesnoth did something to hanle it?
20171013 17:44:25< vultraz> I don’t feel I’m qualified enough to weigh in here, but I will point out that compatibility here isn’t really a problem. We start with a new addon server instance every release series, and changing file names is simple
20171013 17:44:32< vn971> BTW, do we have a decision on the basic and first question?: will be make restrictions on addon server, or addon engine itself (wesnoth client) ?
20171013 17:45:56< vn971> I'd personally vote for doing it on wesnoth client itself.
20171013 17:46:12< JyrkiVesterinen> The case check is in the client. Same for backslash check which I plan to marge later this week.
20171013 17:46:23< vn971> That should be decided before writing code, probably. ;-)
20171013 17:46:24< JyrkiVesterinen> The other checks are going to the add-on server.
20171013 17:46:59< vultraz>  So I disagree that the ship has sailed
20171013 17:47:33< JyrkiVesterinen> We developers have the ultimate power in these decisions. I decided to have those two checks in the client. No other developer has objected.
20171013 17:47:56< vultraz> Anyway, sleep
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20171013 17:48:26< travis-ci> AI0867/wesnoth#44 (windows-case-check - 8fecf8a : Alexander van Gessel): The build passed.
20171013 17:48:26< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/AI0867/wesnoth/builds/287624862
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20171013 17:48:40< vn971> JyrkiVesterinen: Is this good long-term? I mean, we didn't merge it already, did we? Because if we place restrictions in addon server, but not wesnoth clinet, we may have some pretty strange situations. The obvious: you write some addon offline, test it, and _at the time of uploading_ you get to know that it's not uploadable. That's sad.
20171013 17:49:12< Necrosporus> At least for now upload-time check are performed client side... or not?
20171013 17:49:31< vn971> hope not xDDD
20171013 17:49:48< Necrosporus> I think filename check probably better be done before uploading even starts and before [Yes] [No] pop-up
20171013 17:50:04< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, on the other hand, there is the matter of keeping old add-ons functional, for people who download them from obscure file sharing sites or whatever.
20171013 17:50:14< vn971> Necrosporus: yes. The best time would be when you write the addon. ;-)
20171013 17:50:40< vn971> JyrkiVesterinen: well we're in the middle of a new release, so _lots_ of addons are broken anyway.
20171013 17:50:57< JyrkiVesterinen> One player pointed that out in Discord yesterday. He'd have preferred to make file opening case *insensitive* on all platforms.
20171013 17:51:11< vultraz> People can still download addons from old versions from addons.wesnoth.org.
20171013 17:51:23< vn971> JyrkiVesterinen: I mean, some restrictions affecting 10-20 addons is OK if we broke a great deal of other addons anyway. Just fixing path names.. Would that be really hard?
20171013 17:51:29< JyrkiVesterinen> Upload-time checks are indeed performed client-side first. I merged #2079.
20171013 17:51:36< vultraz> But more importantly, we don’t guarantee addons will work between stable releases at all
20171013 17:51:45< celmin|snooze> Going case-insensitive on a case-sensitive system seems like it'd be a lot of work.
20171013 17:52:08< vultraz> So again, compatibility isn’t really an issue
20171013 17:52:13< JyrkiVesterinen> It's not fun to fight against you guys here and people with opposite opinions in Discord... :|
20171013 17:53:47< vultraz> Said incompatibilities are exactly why we start fresh server instances in the first place 
20171013 17:54:25< Necrosporus> vn971, not 10-20, just 3
20171013 17:55:00< vultraz> Well maybe not exactly. But partly
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20171013 17:56:28< Soliton> i'd say that's pretty exactly it. still doesn't mean we have to add incompatibilities for imaginary reasons.
20171013 17:56:38< Necrosporus> celmin|snooze, not only that, it will also mean performance loss
20171013 17:57:36< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, then why fight at all
20171013 17:58:03< JyrkiVesterinen> Would you prefer if I instead swung back and forth depending on who has complained last, then?
20171013 17:58:52 * JyrkiVesterinen has a feeling your suggestion would be "just do everything like I say and ignore what others say"... 
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20171013 17:59:55< Necrosporus> Do we need to discuss what is worse, implement case insensitivity on linux or case sensitivity on windows and mac?
20171013 18:00:18< Necrosporus> given second is implemented two times (sort of?)
20171013 18:00:54< JyrkiVesterinen> Implementing case insensitivity on Linux would, in fact, not be that hard or have a notable performance loss.
20171013 18:01:07< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, given complete unicode?
20171013 18:01:34< JyrkiVesterinen> All it takes is: if opening a file fails, scan the same directories again and compare every filename case insensitively to the requested filename.
20171013 18:01:55< Necrosporus> and proper handling of things like dotless ı which uppercases to I, while i uppercases to İ in some languages?
20171013 18:02:28< Necrosporus> And encourage people writing incorrect code
20171013 18:04:27< JyrkiVesterinen> http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_64_0/doc/html/boost/algorithm/iequals.html
20171013 18:05:07< celmin|snooze> And if it's a directory in the middle of the path that is the wrong case?
20171013 18:05:28< Necrosporus> Loc/ A locale used for case insensitive comparison. Nice. Add-on authors writes in his locale, add-on works. User with other locale downloads it. It doesn't
20171013 18:05:53< JyrkiVesterinen> Hmm... right, that would be harder to handle.
20171013 18:06:37< celmin|snooze> There surely aren't many cases where case translations depend on locale?
20171013 18:06:59< Necrosporus> It's enough if they are
20171013 18:07:28< JyrkiVesterinen> And anyway, I absolutely don't want to see the following situation: 1) Unicode is disallowed in add-on filenames, 2) someone complains about it in Discord and 3) I have to defend a decision I *disagree* with.
20171013 18:07:33< celmin|snooze> I can think of one off the top of my head - lowercase of I would be different in Turkish locale...
20171013 18:07:44< JyrkiVesterinen> At least, I want to have the privilege to say that I fought against that decision.
20171013 18:08:00< Necrosporus> OK, you did fought against it
20171013 18:10:12< vn971> that's a non-trivial question BTW. Whether we should go the "sensitive" or "insensitive" path. I also expect answers to depend which filesystem is the author using, too. I like case-sensitive because that's a more _strict_ thing, and having something strict is easier from maintenance perspective.
20171013 18:11:58< Necrosporus> Also I would prefer Wesnoth complaining about missing resource rather than silently trying to load some other resource
20171013 18:11:59< vn971> Another thing to consider if we go case-insensitive way: how would we handle an addon that has both "aFile.cfg" and "AFile.CFG" ? This question might add some burden, too..
20171013 18:12:09< Necrosporus> Because where is one mistake there is likely another one
20171013 18:12:54< Necrosporus> I hate when programs try to correct me and I have to fight with their autocorrections
20171013 18:13:07< Necrosporus> (like in android keyboard)
20171013 18:13:59< Necrosporus> Or google search. I search for a rare word and it corrects it to more common word. 
20171013 18:14:26< vn971> Necrosporus: I guess that's a bit offtopic already..:D Or is it(?).
20171013 18:16:50< Necrosporus> </rant>
20171013 18:17:24< Necrosporus> vn971, we should be case sensitive. In short. 
20171013 18:23:15< sevu> or insensitive :p
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20171013 18:29:51< celmin|snooze> Case-insensitive is more intuitive.
20171013 18:30:24< celmin|snooze> So if I were to choose one, with all else equal, I'd choose case-insensitive.
20171013 18:30:54< celmin|snooze> I don't think all else is equal, though...
20171013 18:35:24< Necrosporus> What do you exactly mean by "intuitive"?
20171013 18:36:01< celmin|snooze> It's what people expect.
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20171013 18:39:09< Necrosporus> celmin|snooze, do I count as "people"?
20171013 18:39:25< shadowm> Yes.
20171013 18:39:28< celmin|snooze> Obviously.
20171013 18:39:39< celmin|snooze> But when I say "people" here I mean "most people".
20171013 18:39:40< Necrosporus> case sensitivity is more intutive then
20171013 18:39:46< shadowm> Not all people have the same opinion, but the majority of them do expect case-insensitive.
20171013 18:39:48< celmin|snooze> No, it is absolutely not.
20171013 18:39:48< vn971> I think "intuitive" reflects of what you use daily (not something objective to wesnoth-s environment), so I'd try to refrain from it as long as possible. I mean, people will just miscommunicate if they use the term "intuitive". Let's try to talk about how it fits wesnoth, OK?
20171013 18:39:56< vn971> there was too much ranting recently anyway.
20171013 18:40:01< Necrosporus> I expect filesystem and variables and stuff to be case sensitive
20171013 18:40:14< celmin|snooze> That's because you've grown used to it.
20171013 18:40:16< shadowm> Unfortunately the louder people are the ones who do tech stuff and therefore are used to thinking like robots.
20171013 18:40:25< celmin|snooze> That doesn't make it more intuitive, You can get used to anything.
20171013 18:40:27< Necrosporus> If it's suddenly becomes case insensitive it's counterintuitive
20171013 18:40:51< celmin|snooze> That's nothing to do with intuition.
20171013 18:40:58< Necrosporus> celmin|snooze, nope, I can't get used to I lowercase being i or ı depending on locale
20171013 18:41:10< vn971> Necrosporus: please stop, too. See above why. We'll _never_ agree on what's intuitive and what's not.
20171013 18:41:21< JyrkiVesterinen> How often do you switch to Turkish locale, exactly?
20171013 18:41:40< celmin|snooze> ^
20171013 18:41:44< Necrosporus> I expect everybody have same mapping of case
20171013 18:42:10< Necrosporus> Or rather...
20171013 18:42:58< Necrosporus> https://plus.google.com/+JunioCHamano/posts/1Bpaj3e3Rru I expect this to never happen in sanely developed system
20171013 18:43:56< Necrosporus> JyrkiVesterinen, most of people (except me and others who studied this), do expect that I lowercase is always i
20171013 18:44:00< celmin|snooze> What a foolish expectation.
20171013 18:44:06< celmin|snooze> [Oct 13@2:41:44pm] Necrosporus: I expect everybody have same mapping of case
20171013 18:44:18< Necrosporus> I have corrected myself
20171013 18:44:25< celmin|snooze> Necrosporus: Most people who do not speak Turkish, sure.
20171013 18:44:25< JyrkiVesterinen> For me, I lowercase *is* always i.
20171013 18:45:00< Necrosporus> And then what if you write software which expects it and it suddenly have security holes on computer with turkish locale?
20171013 18:45:18< JyrkiVesterinen> "what if you write software" is *not* the POV of an end user.
20171013 18:45:33< Necrosporus> What if you write Wesnoth Add-on
20171013 18:45:46< JyrkiVesterinen> That's still a developer use case.
20171013 18:45:51< Necrosporus> remember that we are talking about UMC authors, who actually do write sort of software
20171013 18:46:43< celmin|snooze> Well, what you should be doing in this case is to not write software which expects it.
20171013 18:47:48< Necrosporus> Or, somebody else should not make filesystems which are case insensitive
20171013 18:47:59< Soliton> we have similar issues with translations so we should remove support for those, too...
20171013 18:48:31< Necrosporus> What issues exactly?
20171013 18:48:32< celmin|snooze> No, on the contrary, Linux should switch to a case-insensitive filesystem.
20171013 18:49:23< Soliton> Necrosporus: you're welcome to detail them. i think you're still in the imagining phase though.
20171013 18:49:28< vn971> celmin|snooze: I think Linux can work with either. Like Mac, which can work with both variants.
20171013 18:49:48< celmin|snooze> It should be the default, at least.
20171013 18:50:15< vn971> anyway, see? We're ranting about what should an OS use. This is what you'll get if you start talking about what's "intuitive".
20171013 18:51:13< celmin|snooze> :P
20171013 18:51:30< vn971> This is a well-known psychology fact BTW, people honestly defend what they currently use, no matter if they are objective or not. In some [psychology] experiments people start defending the clearly wrong "or different" thing if they are conditioned to think it was their or is their choice now.
20171013 18:52:08< vn971> So, in order to avoid it, we should only focus about wesnoth issues and wesnoth conditions, nothing else. At least while we have work to do and things to decide.
20171013 18:53:14< celmin|snooze> Well said.
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20171013 19:15:57< Necrosporus> gfgtdf, hello
20171013 19:16:03< gfgtdf> hi
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20171013 23:37:31-!- Topic for #wesnoth-dev: 1.13.10 tagged, releasing "soon" | Wesnoth Developers Channel | >>> Want to help? Go here: http://r.wesnoth.org/t42911 (and thanks!) <<< | Discord Server: https://discord.gg/tSmJS2E | Logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org | Bug tracker: http://bugs.wesnoth.org
20171013 23:37:31-!- Topic set by vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] [Thu Oct 12 01:18:54 2017]
20171013 23:37:31[Users #wesnoth-dev]
20171013 23:37:31[ aeth           ] [ EliDupree      ] [ higgins     ] [ mattsc     ] [ Polsaker ] [ timotei_ ] 
20171013 23:37:31[ AI0867         ] [ Elsi           ] [ Ivanovic    ] [ minzbonbon ] [ pydsigner] [ tomreyn  ] 
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20171013 23:37:31[ Appleman1234   ] [ esr            ] [ janebot     ] [ Necrosporus] [ Rhonda   ] [ vultraz  ] 
20171013 23:37:31[ celmin|snooze  ] [ galegosimpatico] [ Jetrel_bot  ] [ new_one    ] [ senkwich ] [ wedge009 ] 
20171013 23:37:31[ ChipmunkV[m]   ] [ Gambit         ] [ lobby       ] [ NicolasF[m]] [ shadowm  ] [ Yaiyan   ] 
20171013 23:37:31[ crimson_penguin] [ gfgtdf         ] [ loonycyborg ] [ nore       ] [ Soliton  ] 
20171013 23:37:31[ DDR            ] [ Greg_Boggs[m]  ] [ madmax28    ] [ nurupo     ] [ TC01     ] 
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20171013 23:37:40-!- Channel #wesnoth-dev created Tue Jan 27 05:28:41 2009
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20171013 23:46:54< celmin|snooze> Whew, finally got caught up on my github notifications. >_> There sure is a lot going on lately.
--- Log closed Sat Oct 14 00:00:34 2017