--- Log opened Sun Oct 29 00:00:56 2017
20171029 00:02:10< celticminstrel> I don't think there's really a need for vertical sliders.
20171029 00:02:36< celticminstrel> That said, if it's trivial, we might as well support it. Addon authors might find a use for it.
20171029 00:03:28< celticminstrel> Though I'm not sure moving on_bar to a formula is the best way.
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20171029 00:04:02< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15413 (master - b49c843 : gfgtdf): The build was broken.
20171029 00:04:02< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294272960
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20171029 00:05:07< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 8e5e911f6754 / src/game_initialization/multiplayer.cpp: Revert accidental change from 1bfa170856eda causing serious problems https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8e5e911f67548754bd60e56acf5c6a9108edb72d
20171029 00:05:09< celticminstrel> Could also just bake the choice into the existing functions.
20171029 00:05:41< celticminstrel> Unless you think there's some third formula for those functions that would be useful?
20171029 00:06:00< celticminstrel> I mean, I suppose using WFL would allow addon authors to do something like a rotary slider.
20171029 00:06:17< vultraz> oh come on
20171029 00:06:19< vultraz> be realistic
20171029 00:06:35< celticminstrel> What are you talking about? That's pretty realistic.
20171029 00:06:35< vultraz> our UI toolkit is too rigid for anything fancy
20171029 00:07:08< celticminstrel> Well, maybe it wouldn't allow that though. I'm not sure.
20171029 00:07:10< vultraz> you need a stronger, more robust, more powerful language to have actual fancy UI elements
20171029 00:07:17< gfgtdf> celticminstrel: hmm not really, my thought was just that since it a formuly that draws these sliders, it might also make sense to have the code that detects whether a certain pixel is on the slider to the same place
20171029 00:07:18< vultraz> not WML
20171029 00:07:41< gfgtdf> but when i think about it i currently see no reson why a rotating slider wouldn't work then.
20171029 00:07:55< gfgtdf> s/it a formuly/it usa formula
20171029 00:08:20< celticminstrel> I didn't look, but I wouldn't be surprised if set_slider_position somehow makes assumptions that would prevent it from working.
20171029 00:10:45< vultraz> grumble grumble
20171029 00:10:47< celticminstrel> We have someone submitting signed-off commits now... it's weird... >_>
20171029 00:10:53< vultraz> why is it such a PITA to add files in VS
20171029 00:11:23< celticminstrel> Although I think the sign-off hasn't actually gotten into the wesnoth repo, since you usually use squash-and-merge.
20171029 00:12:56< gfgtdf> vultraz: yes it's annoying, maybe there is a way to make vs know your default source directory for those files
20171029 00:13:13< vultraz> also, need to find a new git client
20171029 00:13:14< gfgtdf> vultraz: and don't forget that you can select multiple files in the explorer.
20171029 00:13:24< vultraz> TGit is broken as hell on Windows 10 1709
20171029 00:14:15< vultraz> new security features cause it to slow down to the speed of an amber-encases snail running a race in molasses 
20171029 00:14:22< vultraz> encased
20171029 00:16:05< vultraz> and apparently the "fix" is to disable those new windows security features!
20171029 00:16:08< vultraz> *facepalms*
20171029 00:18:06< vultraz> but then again, for some reason VSCode and VS itself don't support @git :|
20171029 00:19:00< matthiaskrgr> https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000PiGfdwWa0Pk/s/900/900/Palm-Sunglasses-49845.jpg  
20171029 00:19:50< vultraz> P_P
20171029 00:19:55< matthiaskrgr> :3  
20171029 00:20:12< irker693> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 7ee39bfc1ad2 / src/gui/widgets/slider_base.cpp: attempt to fix apple clang build https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7ee39bfc1ad2b9cd2be6117b571ff5bbc6211ecd
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20171029 00:20:27< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#970 (slider_refactor - 53d0ff5 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 00:20:27< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/294272697
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20171029 00:24:04< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master e6830faab430 / projectfiles/VC12/ (wesnoth.vcxproj wesnoth.vcxproj.filters): Proper (I think) VC projectfile update for e9c6dff56ad8 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e6830faab430e80fcf0fb1f86b6f3fec35403d5a
20171029 00:26:29< gfgtdf> thx for that
20171029 00:26:35< gfgtdf> i still think it'
20171029 00:27:01< gfgtdf> s stilly how vs generates all this unneeded 'Condition="'$(Configuration)|$(Platform)'=='Debug|Win32'" ....' stuff
20171029 00:27:39< vultraz> i think it happens if you specify the output dir more than just $(int_dir) or smth
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20171029 00:40:13< vultraz> gfgtdf: did you implement lockstep slider movement?
20171029 00:40:21< gfgtdf> yes
20171029 00:40:25< vultraz> ahh
20171029 00:41:32< gfgtdf> we can also make it easily disablable in wml, but i didn't see  a usecase for it yet.
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20171029 00:42:15< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15414 (master - e3e2747 : gfgtdf): The build was broken.
20171029 00:42:15< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294278551
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20171029 00:56:17< gfgtdf> is there a way to specify the default faction in your era? In 1.12 it would just take the era at the top, now it takes the era that is alphabeticially first, whihc is not what i want.
20171029 01:01:48< vultraz> uhhh
20171029 01:01:49< vultraz> not sure?
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20171029 01:07:23< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#971 (master - e3e2747 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 01:07:23< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/294288183
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20171029 01:57:23< celticminstrel> I was pretty sure Visual Studio supported git?
20171029 01:57:47< celticminstrel> My MSVC 2013 seems to be able to tell whether files have been added in git, IIRC.
20171029 02:07:08< vultraz> I meant I haven’t found a way to set it up with my ssh credentials
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20171029 02:12:31< irker693> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 5a2162564f8d / src/gui/widgets/slider_base.hpp: Fix syntax and autodoc errors https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5a2162564f8dbbb61d63982debc9f07159765c35
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20171029 02:38:47< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15420 (master - 7ee39bf : gfgtdf): The build failed.
20171029 02:38:47< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294288841
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20171029 02:54:54< vultraz>  i got it
20171029 03:05:06< celticminstrel> Technically that's not a syntax error.
20171029 03:05:38< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure you can strew random semicolons anywhere other than in the middle of a statement.
20171029 03:05:53< vultraz> tad is stricter than the compiler :P
20171029 03:07:31< vultraz> oh look, a verified commit
20171029 03:15:27< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 3e16df795e9a / src/gui/widgets/ (slider_base.cpp slider_base.hpp): GUI2/Slider Base: formatting cleanup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3e16df795e9ab8e3a89450378508b08a39697bd5
20171029 03:15:30< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master d78ed1c36d50 / src/ (gui/widgets/slider_base.cpp utils/math.hpp): Fixup 7ee39bfc1ad2b9c (include was added to the wrong file) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d78ed1c36d50146568e8cc34049b5e10e00ecd53
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20171029 04:31:43< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15423 (master - d78ed1c : Charles Dang): The build passed.
20171029 04:31:43< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294320030
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20171029 05:56:52< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 0737736d3c74 / / (7 files in 6 dirs): MP Lobby: completely redesigned game entry layout https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0737736d3c7441215a5246f6166e2a8e69642e4c
20171029 05:56:55< irker693> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master b1ad293ccd04 / / (7 files in 5 dirs): GUI2: removed unused MP Command Wrapper dialog https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b1ad293ccd0408d1418c23a322a42413ebfc6af3
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20171029 06:59:12< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15424 (master - b1ad293 : Charles Dang): The build was broken.
20171029 06:59:12< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294349120
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20171029 07:21:14< vultraz> nein!
20171029 07:25:23< vultraz> what the hell?
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20171029 08:37:21< JyrkiVesterinen> vultraz: I think the game is crashing in Travis while trying to create spaced_em_dash.
20171029 08:37:40< JyrkiVesterinen> In C++, the order in which global variables are initialized is unspecified.
20171029 08:38:17< JyrkiVesterinen> So, if a build happens to attempt to initialize spaced_em_dash before font::unicode_em_dash is available... Boom.
20171029 08:38:52< vultraz> I see
20171029 08:39:04< vultraz> Is this fixable?
20171029 08:39:30< JyrkiVesterinen> Easiest would be to make spaced_em_dash a function that returns the string on demand.
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20171029 11:33:52< irker084> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 07c0af34f6d2 / src/gui/widgets/ (slider_base.cpp slider_base.hpp): small slider cleanup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/07c0af34f6d2e2209d9d9b4b67c753612110f048
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20171029 12:13:37< irker084> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 4e79aedb8de8 / src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): use unsyced rng for animation&sound stuff https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4e79aedb8de8b4739b174cd430489e3e6025376d
20171029 12:13:39< irker084> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 3763f5a759ab / src/units/unit.cpp: use unsynced rng for unit traits https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3763f5a759abbda701e4604164b228113824f305
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20171029 12:50:30< irker084> wesnoth: pentarctagon wesnoth:master 699407d7f0a2 / SConstruct src/SConscript: Replace base build with use_srcdir option. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/699407d7f0a24cd8735e8da209299f5ae207c2a6
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20171029 12:59:43< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15425 (master - 07c0af3 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 12:59:45< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294417551
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20171029 13:22:33< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15426 (master - 3763f5a : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 13:22:33< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294426639
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20171029 14:00:00< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15427 (master - 699407d : pentarctagon): The build is still failing.
20171029 14:00:00< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294435788
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20171029 15:22:51< celticminstrel> Note that globals in the same file are always initialized in order of appearance, so that issue can only occur if spaced_em_dash and unicode_em_dash are in different files...
20171029 15:23:45< JyrkiVesterinen> They indeed are. They are even in different projects - spaced_em_dash is in wesnoth, while unicode_em_dash is in wesnothlib.
20171029 15:23:53< celticminstrel> It looks to me that spaced_em_dash is only used once though, so why not just use unicode_em_dash instead?
20171029 15:25:00< JyrkiVesterinen> It's used in five lines. 309, 352, 373, 380, and 409.
20171029 15:25:27< celticminstrel> Oh. GitHub's search only showed one.
20171029 15:36:42< celticminstrel> Oh, those are all in the same function, so it could even be changed to a local variable.
20171029 15:36:48< celticminstrel> Though that sure is a huge function. o.o
20171029 15:37:32< vultraz> it's a ctor :P
20171029 15:37:42< celticminstrel> A constructor is a function. :P
20171029 15:37:48< vultraz> indeed
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20171029 16:30:43< irker079> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 2c7a64143a28 / src/game_initialization/lobby_data.cpp: Lobby Data: minor cleanup, fixup https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2c7a64143a28827993f6fd1fa858ff7a03f79b56
20171029 16:30:44< irker079> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 7da37fd84a35 / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/ (lobby.cpp lobby.hpp): MP Lobby: refactored game entry code https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/7da37fd84a35962ed02c62cb9705affcc0928ff6
20171029 16:36:55< vultraz> ah shit, i fucked up the fixup
20171029 16:37:22< vultraz> oh well, i'll fixup the fixup tomorrow
20171029 16:43:00< shadowm> ...
20171029 16:45:17< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 761f323f435e / data/core/editor/help.cfg: Fix editor help incomplete sentence. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/761f323f435e669e0327550673a9572251def29d
20171029 16:45:19< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 3abc0929dc6a / data/core/editor/help.cfg: Merge pull request #2143 from GregoryLundberg/GL_Editor_Help https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3abc0929dc6abc89da1728c78a34741c7acdd9c4
20171029 16:46:39< JyrkiVesterinen> tad_carlucci has merging powers now?
20171029 16:46:47< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, it's not exactly a problem. :)
20171029 16:47:31< irker079> wesnoth: Celtic Minstrel wesnoth:master aa25d750fdf8 / src/game_initialization/lobby_data.cpp: fixup 2c7a64143a28827993f6fd1fa858ff7a03f79b56 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/aa25d750fdf831cab7efc7d06f0f6adf123db94a
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20171029 16:52:57< TadCarlucci> vultraz, you done fiddlin' with lobby.hpp? There's an autodoc error I can fix if you're done, or you can if you have more
20171029 16:53:52< vultraz> I’m done for now
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20171029 17:02:07< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 50a5c9da91c6 / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/lobby.hpp: Add missing autodoc comment https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/50a5c9da91c6edc05034c055a630fab8ec4850b7
20171029 17:02:09< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master d67891274e0c / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/lobby.hpp: Merge pull request #2144 from GregoryLundberg/GL_lobby_autodoc https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d67891274e0c9dae7cc406eeddd8e0d4fd2821c5
20171029 17:03:38< JyrkiVesterinen> Could you just push directly to master instead of going through pull requests?
20171029 17:03:57< JyrkiVesterinen> We prefer history without merge commits, and pushing directly to master should be easier anyway.
20171029 17:05:20< zookeeper> or if you go through pull requests, you can always rebase-merge them to avoid the merge commits...
20171029 17:05:22< celticminstrel> Or use "squash and merge".
20171029 17:05:28< celticminstrel> Or yeah, rebase and merge.
20171029 17:07:37< TadCarlucci> OK. I was just thinking that. I have another coming from vultraz' lobby fix and will try a direct push
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20171029 17:21:42< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15429 (master - 7da37fd : Charles Dang): The build is still failing.
20171029 17:21:42< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294498392
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20171029 17:25:43< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:GL_remove_unused_param 48afb6e8227a / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/ (lobby.cpp lobby.hpp): Remove unused parameter from MP lobby.cpp https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/48afb6e8227a8f61d298ecdf94b6ce7a725e26ab
20171029 17:27:28< vultraz> Ummm
20171029 17:27:33< vultraz> You can push to master...
20171029 17:28:07< celticminstrel> But what if he wants to make sure Travis passes before pushing to master?
20171029 17:29:28< TadCarlucci> What I an searching for is a good HOWTO. The one I found created a branch on wesnoth/master. I don't see how to push a commit upstream, only to my fork.
20171029 17:30:56< JyrkiVesterinen> git remote add wesnoth https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth.git
20171029 17:31:01< JyrkiVesterinen> git checkout master
20171029 17:31:06< JyrkiVesterinen> git push wesnoth master
20171029 17:31:34< TadCarlucci> I usually don't care about Travis since I test compile on gcc/clang/VC15 and run the tests so I'm usually pretty sure Travis will be happy. Today, though, Travisis generally unhappy with everything tho ...
20171029 17:32:00< celticminstrel> Might that be because someone pushed invalid code?
20171029 17:32:06< TadCarlucci> I have a remote "upstream" already set to wesnoth/wesnoth.git ..
20171029 17:32:10< celticminstrel> Like, the thing I pushed a fixup for.
20171029 17:32:23< celticminstrel> So 'git push upstream master'
20171029 17:32:24< TadCarlucci> celticminstrel, Dunno. All WML tests segfault
20171029 17:32:31< celticminstrel> Oh. WML tests. Huh.
20171029 17:32:34< JyrkiVesterinen> TadCarlucci: in that case, "git push upstream master"
20171029 17:32:39< celticminstrel> Well, those can easily be run locally though.
20171029 17:32:46< irker079> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 48afb6e8227a / src/gui/dialogs/multiplayer/ (lobby.cpp lobby.hpp): Remove unused parameter from MP lobby.cpp https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/48afb6e8227a8f61d298ecdf94b6ce7a725e26ab
20171029 17:33:32< TadCarlucci> Ty. I suppose the reason there's no HOWTO out there to Google is it's so easy ..
20171029 17:34:21< TadCarlucci> My local wml tests all pass. So there's something about Travis' environment which is causing the segfault.
20171029 17:34:29< celticminstrel> Ah.
20171029 17:35:37< JyrkiVesterinen> It was likely the problem fixed in https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2c7a64143a28827993f6fd1fa858ff7a03f79b56
20171029 17:35:50< JyrkiVesterinen> Not a single Travis build has been even run after that.
20171029 17:36:22< JyrkiVesterinen> For example, https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294508704?utm_source=github_status&utm_medium=notification shows that the builds were canceled.
20171029 17:37:18< TadCarlucci> When I make a change, I try to always ensure I get a clean gcc/clang/VC15 and all WML tests pass on linux and windows. Today, though, I'm adjusting my workflow for direct commit rights so I'm hitting bumps in the road.
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20171029 17:41:02< irker079> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 38be1b600d59 / data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: T S02: Add a message about the status table https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/38be1b600d5934d87b3db624a260e1441f78ed03
20171029 17:41:39< irker079> wesnoth: jostephd wesnoth:master e0efa082d7ab / data/ (2 files in 2 dirs): HttT S14: Tweak dialog to be more archaic https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e0efa082d7ab901c7a683adf057e7e84c939f2b7
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20171029 17:57:25< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15434 (GL_remove_unused_param - 48afb6e : Gregory A Lundberg): The build has errored.
20171029 17:57:25< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294515935
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20171029 18:00:09< TadCarlucci> Looking at what's presently running, it looks like Travis should be back to Passing once it gets caught up all the fixes for lobby.cpp ...
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20171029 18:23:16< gfgtdf> vultraz: coudl you also fix 1887 ?
20171029 18:23:26< gfgtdf> (mp create game era/scenario compatibility check broken )
20171029 18:24:24< JyrkiVesterinen> IIRC, he has been trying.
20171029 18:25:45< gfgtdf> hmm "has been" means he gave up?
20171029 18:27:41< JyrkiVesterinen> No, just that he has thought about a solution for a long time.
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20171029 18:50:31< gfgtdf> the old (gui1) code simply had a function create::synchronize_selections() that synced the sycned the files of the create engine/ui with theose in the dependency manager
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20171029 19:16:50< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#15438 (master - e0efa08 : jostephd): The build passed.
20171029 19:16:50< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/294520454
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20171029 19:29:24< _pepe> Hey all, I can't get 1.13.10 to build, I get a no on libcrypto. I have openssl and libssl-dev installed.
20171029 19:30:13< JyrkiVesterinen> Are you using SCons? If yes, try --config=force.
20171029 19:30:35< _pepe> yes, ok will try
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20171029 19:31:42< _pepe> so basically scons --config=force ?
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20171029 19:32:22< JyrkiVesterinen> Yes.
20171029 19:32:23< _pepe> ok there it goes, thanks
20171029 19:32:31< JyrkiVesterinen> Yw :)
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20171029 20:04:45< vultraz> gfgtdf: i've tried, yes, but it's impossible :|
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20171029 21:57:42< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release gfgtdf faaec72: 865v8765f764865f4674765 Failed
20171029 21:57:42< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/gfgtdf/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-46
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20171029 22:10:00< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#973 (master - faaec72 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 22:10:00< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/294589951
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20171029 22:19:02< Appveyor> wesnoth - Debug gfgtdf faaec72: 865v8765f764865f4674765 Failed
20171029 22:19:02< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/gfgtdf/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-46
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20171029 22:33:08< gfgtdf> vultraz: now in the 1.13. mp lobby most infomration is basicially missing, did i have some wrong setting or are you going to fix that ?
20171029 22:33:40< vultraz> gfgtdf: it's in the tooltip of the I icon
20171029 22:34:13< gfgtdf> but then i have to go over the tooltip over evey game to find i game that is interrsting for me, this is very unhandy
20171029 22:34:21< gfgtdf> to find a game*
20171029 22:34:45< vultraz> I designed it so the immediately pertinent info is available right away
20171029 22:35:04< vultraz> info about, say, experience modifiers or gold or whatever isn't relevant
20171029 22:35:47< vultraz> as for Era and Mods, I figured those were important but there was no way I could have both in the main display
20171029 22:35:48< gfgtdf> vultraz: well but i dont even see the current era  unless i use that tooltip
20171029 22:35:51< vultraz> especially with a lot of mods
20171029 22:36:04< vultraz> and i figured most people won't find game by era anyway
20171029 22:36:19< vultraz> they'll either want a friend's game or go by the game itself
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20171029 22:36:38< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#974 (master - 89609d3 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing.
20171029 22:36:38< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/294598322
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20171029 22:37:12< gfgtdf> lets ask the other way: what are th advnatages of the new desiogn? you only rmeoved infomration without adding any.
20171029 22:38:07< vultraz> The new design was meant to highlight the important info and de-clutter the display 
20171029 22:38:49< gfgtdf> i could easily see the imortant info with the old design.
20171029 22:38:56< gfgtdf> please at least make it optinal
20171029 22:39:31< shadowm> I told vultraz to consult with people who actually play MP regularly.
20171029 22:39:36< gfgtdf> another bug: the search filed doesnt search in modifications & eras
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20171029 22:39:45< shadowm> (For the record. I doubt he's done so yet.)
20171029 22:40:00< vultraz> gfgtdf: what is the #1 piece of info you'd rather have back in the main display? Era?
20171029 22:40:07< gfgtdf> in 1.12 i coudl use the serach filed to search for games with a certain era or mod
20171029 22:41:20< gfgtdf> era, maybe use map settings
20171029 22:41:39< zookeeper> ...you don't see the era immediately anymore? that at least sounds like data you should see at a glance, since it's kind of... important when checking through the list.
20171029 22:42:02< vultraz> no, you don't see the era immediately anymore
20171029 22:43:27< vultraz> I'm not moving UMS back 
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20171029 22:43:40< Appveyor> wesnoth - Release gfgtdf 89609d3: ghjkghjkghjkghk Failed
20171029 22:43:40< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/gfgtdf/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-47
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20171029 22:43:48< vultraz> it's mostly irrelevant 
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20171029 22:45:30< vultraz> I'll consider moving Era back if I can find a nice place to put it
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20171029 22:46:51< gfgtdf> well it's easier than checking each of the other values when you want to make sure not to join a game with strange settings, but for me it'S not that important.
20171029 22:47:16< vultraz> the tooltip tells you if map settings are used
20171029 22:47:19< gfgtdf> there is lot of space now, specially considering hwo much you removed, telling there is no space is just silly
20171029 22:47:24< gfgtdf> how*
20171029 22:47:42< vultraz> well, yes
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20171029 22:47:46< vultraz> the point was to simplify the display
20171029 22:47:55< vultraz> and leave only the immediately pertinent info
20171029 22:48:08< vultraz> think of it from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about wesnoth
20171029 22:48:19< vultraz> they don't care about shared vision, or starting gold, or whatever
20171029 22:48:25< vultraz> they just want a game that sounds interesting
20171029 22:49:26-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas
20171029 22:49:51< vultraz> it's bad design to cram All The Info into a single place
20171029 22:50:44< zookeeper> ...if you hide the information behind a tooltip, it's still crammed into a single place, only harder to access. :p
20171029 22:51:03< vultraz> no, it's crammed into two places
20171029 22:51:46< zookeeper> if there's space to display all the info but you feel it'd be too cluttery and confusing, then the straightforward solution would seem to be to put in a checkbox that toggles whether those details are displayed or not, and then it can be unchecked by default.
20171029 22:51:56< vultraz> oh ffs, no
20171029 22:52:02< vultraz> tell me
20171029 22:52:09< vultraz> have you seen such a design anywhere else?
20171029 22:52:15< zookeeper> i don't recall
20171029 22:52:30< vultraz> plus, that's a click
20171029 22:52:33< vultraz> this is literally a *tooltip*
20171029 22:52:47< zookeeper> one click versus endless hoverings
20171029 22:52:48< vultraz> you hover over the very prominent "i"
20171029 22:52:55< shadowm> vultraz.
20171029 22:53:08< vultraz> why is everyone here against minimal design!
20171029 22:53:48< shadowm> Let me ask you a question: have you played any games that have the same gameplay design considerations as Wesnoth, including the mechanisms for organizing MP games and setting up user-made content?
20171029 22:53:51< zookeeper> because minimal design is a poor choice when your user needs/wants to evaluate lots of information at once? :p
20171029 22:54:12< vultraz> The point is they don't need to evaluate all the information at once!
20171029 22:54:17< shadowm> You can't say "dota" because Dota 2's model is most decidedly not applicable to Wesnoth.
20171029 22:54:34< vultraz> even *I* don't really know or care about half the info icons displayed before
20171029 22:54:40< shadowm> Do you play MP?
20171029 22:54:47< vultraz> i used to
20171029 22:54:56< shadowm> How many hours a week did you invest into MP?
20171029 22:55:00< vultraz> 0
20171029 22:55:06< vultraz> oh, *did*
20171029 22:55:07< vultraz> uhh
20171029 22:55:09< vultraz> i dunno
20171029 22:55:10< vultraz> 5?
20171029 22:55:11< vultraz> 10?
20171029 22:55:24< shadowm> That's not a lot compared to the more vocal members of your target audience.
20171029 22:55:36< vultraz> then let me hear from them
20171029 22:55:41< shadowm> Then go ask them.
20171029 22:55:49< shadowm> They aren't going to come to you until you release 1.14.0.
20171029 22:56:14< vultraz> sure, I can go ask them
20171029 22:56:21< shadowm> If they don't like it at that point, you're going to be hard pressed to extract any constructive criticism from them.
20171029 22:56:35< vultraz> but right now it feels like zookeeper is shouting from the peanut gallery
20171029 22:57:03< shadowm> Because by the point a version is labeled stable, it's assumed that the devs know what they're doing and they aren't redesigning the UI purely on a whim and without careful consideration of the player base's needs and preferences.
20171029 22:57:03< vultraz> offering no constructive feedback, only "but muh info!"
20171029 22:57:35< shadowm> See also: the 1.8 lobby situation.
20171029 22:57:45< zookeeper> i'm responding to things you're saying
20171029 22:58:55< vultraz> unhelpfully
20171029 23:01:36< zookeeper> wait, UMS is not displayed either? that seems like the other thing i'd imagine people vet games by.
20171029 23:02:15< gfgtdf> it's also unclear what the big  [S] in the game that is currentoy on the 1.13.10 lobby means.
20171029 23:02:30< vultraz> Scenario
20171029 23:02:50< vultraz> I'm not... entirely satisfied with that, but I wanted some way to distinguish scenarios and campaigns
20171029 23:02:59< vultraz> do you have a better solution?
20171029 23:04:12< gfgtdf> the 1.12 lobby did just phase it out, maybe we could also use an icon bu i cannot think of any, 
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20171029 23:04:31< gfgtdf> so you marc campaigsn with a [C] ?
20171029 23:04:33< gfgtdf> mark
20171029 23:04:36< vultraz> yes
20171029 23:05:02< vultraz> and either are red if they aren't found locally
20171029 23:05:14< vultraz> instead of that "Unknown Scenario" / "Unknown Campaign" stuff
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20171029 23:06:35< Appveyor> wesnoth - Debug gfgtdf 89609d3: ghjkghjkghjkghk Failed
20171029 23:06:35< Appveyor> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/gfgtdf/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-47
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20171029 23:06:50< gfgtdf> that's all things the user has to know, sounds contrary to the 'from the perspective of someone who knows nothing about wesnoth' thing you said before. although i admit  "Unknown Scenario" / "Unknown Campaign"  was naver that clear eigher
20171029 23:10:14< vultraz> I'll make a thread in Users asking for feedback
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 30 00:00:57 2017