--- Log opened Mon Oct 09 00:00:27 2017 20171009 00:06:59-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171009 00:36:20< janebot> Tweet (by @Wesnoth) (RT @shikadilord) The bug that broke the passphrases of existing #Wesnoth add-ons on the 1.13.x server is fixed now: https://r.wesnoth.org/t46926 [ https://twitter.com/Wesnoth/status/917186930697277441 ] 20171009 00:45:32< wesnoth-discord-> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Test Add-on Do Not Download has outlived its purpose. 20171009 00:45:59< celticminstrel> XD 20171009 00:46:01< wesnoth-discord-> I uploaded it with the intention of verifying the same bug I just fixed. 20171009 00:53:03< DeFender1031> shadowm, is that the one you said someone should remind you about in a month? 20171009 00:53:33< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah. 20171009 00:56:21< DeFender1031> So you no longer need that reminder? 20171009 00:57:01< wesnoth-discord-> Nope. 20171009 00:57:12< DeFender1031> damn, and I was all set to actually do it too! 20171009 01:08:03< celticminstrel> "snug in the safety of our cozy warehouse made out of matchsticks" XD 20171009 01:17:40-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 02:00:10-!- Hulavuta [~Justin@47.200.7.160] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 02:02:50-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 02:06:57-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171009 02:30:13-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 03:31:14-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 03:32:42-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 04:13:41-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 04:29:53-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171009 04:35:11-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 04:39:06-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20171009 04:39:34-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171009 04:40:15-!- Hulavuta [~Justin@47.200.7.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20171009 04:46:22-!- Kwandulin [~Kwandulin@pD9FD50F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: [endlevel]] 20171009 05:11:11-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 05:23:21-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171009 05:27:27< aeth> In case anyone's interested, I turned my very large map into a PNG (minus the overlays, which is why there are no trees or villages). https://i.imgur.com/w9nnf2l.png 20171009 05:27:53< aeth> It probably provides a better view of the world than a very zoomed out screenshot 20171009 05:28:21< wesnoth-discord-> That's cool 20171009 05:28:38< aeth> I basically gave each terrain value a color except non-dirt roads and castles because there are far too many roads and castles. 20171009 05:28:44-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 05:28:59< wesnoth-discord-> It's really sweet 20171009 05:29:11< wesnoth-discord-> What are the map size setting on it? 20171009 05:29:25< aeth> 400x200 (so 402x202 with the borders) 20171009 05:29:47< wesnoth-discord-> Damn that's big 20171009 05:29:55< wesnoth-discord-> I want to learn how to make a custom campaign 20171009 05:30:01< wesnoth-discord-> And all the art and shit 20171009 05:30:06< wesnoth-discord-> The problem is no time 20171009 05:31:01< aeth> Do not make a map this big. 20171009 05:31:55< aeth> (1) That map is probably about 2-3 years of work on the side. (2) It really should be running in an engine that breaks maps into pieces because it eats CPU at the moment. 20171009 05:32:19< aeth> If you want to get started on a map, try for about 30x20 or so, and resize it to expand it if you run out of room 20171009 05:33:04< aeth> My map started out as about 6-8 smaller maps, that were then combined into one world. 20171009 05:35:53< wesnoth-discord-> aeth: Can I download your map from somewhere? 20171009 05:35:57< aeth> If you have something small that's complete and you just add to it, it's no big deal. Try to make it as small as you can get away with so you can 100% complete it. Also, for Wesnoth maps, it helps if you expand down and to the right. That won't change the looks of things like mountains. 20171009 05:36:02< wesnoth-discord-> I think it may help me to optimize the engine. 20171009 05:36:22< aeth> https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/blob/master/Aethaeryns_Mod/maps/big-woods.map 20171009 05:37:28< wesnoth-discord-> Thanks! 😃 20171009 05:42:13< aeth> It looks like the map itself, just loading it as a User Map in the game, takes about half the CPU as the actual scenario content 20171009 05:43:10< aeth> although that might be because the leaders spawn in tiny, isolated areas. 20171009 05:43:28< aeth> unit count + pathfinding probably leads to a lot of the CPU consumption 20171009 05:44:09< wesnoth-discord-> So, you're saying that it eats CPU during AI turns? 20171009 05:44:24< wesnoth-discord-> I was actually thinking that you were saying that it ate CPU even when idle. 20171009 05:44:27< aeth> I do not use AI 20171009 05:45:04< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth doesn't use pathfinding much in player turns, so my first guess would be rendering code. 20171009 05:46:03< aeth> yes, the worst spot is a place with lots of units visible at once, like the main city 20171009 05:49:21< aeth> (not spawned from the map, but from the Lua) 20171009 05:53:44< aeth> It's particularly bad in 1.13, though. The water. 20171009 05:56:30< aeth> 50% zoom over the main city (the rectangle on the lake in the larger river) with lots of water and lots of units and I get noticable lag. I haven't recompiled 1.13 in a while, though. A few months. 20171009 05:57:28< aeth> Iirc, my main concern is that my scenario goes from just barely playable on most people's computers in 1.12 to just barely unplayable on mine in 1.13 20171009 06:00:55< wesnoth-discord-> In that case you'll be happy to hear that 1.13 performance has been hugely improved since June. 😃 20171009 06:01:47< aeth> recompiling 20171009 06:08:17< zookeeper> yeah, if you haven't tried with any of those recent'ish optimizations, you should. 20171009 06:11:38< celticminstrel> [Oct 09@01:35:57am] aeth: If you have something small that's complete and you just add to it, it's no big deal. Try to make it as small as you can get away with so you can 100% complete it. Also, for Wesnoth maps, it helps if you expand down and to the right. That won't change the looks of things like mountains. 20171009 06:11:39< celticminstrel> I imagine if you expand left/up by only even numbers it would also not change the looks of mountains? 20171009 06:12:15< aeth> still a performance regression in 1.13.10+ from about 65% CPU to full CPU when 50% zoomed over the busiest area of the map in water/units 20171009 06:12:42< aeth> celticminstrel: it sort of changes it. like, it should still stay as e.g. a large mountain, but it will be a different one 20171009 06:12:58< aeth> iirc 20171009 06:13:13< celticminstrel> Oh, so it changes the random variations? 20171009 06:13:17< aeth> iirc 20171009 06:13:22< celticminstrel> But it should at least not change the general shape of things? 20171009 06:13:28< aeth> It has probably been at least 2 years since I've played with that 20171009 06:13:50< aeth> It should keep the general shape of things, but you might have to e.g. move a mountain over by two if some edge case pops up and you really want it to be a large mountain 20171009 06:13:57< celticminstrel> If you add only one column at the left, or only one row at the top, due to the way the hexes are laid out, it actually changes the shape of terrain formations. 20171009 06:14:07< celticminstrel> (Or any odd number IIUC.) 20171009 06:14:38< aeth> right, even expansion changes the variations, so it changes the look, but not the gameplay characteristics 20171009 06:15:10< aeth> e.g. if you use urban villages they might now all be the ugly tower one that doesn't look like a home when before they all looked like houses 20171009 06:15:26< aeth> but mostly mountains would be the issue 20171009 06:16:22< aeth> most transformations will not preserve the mountains 20171009 06:16:54< aeth> and those that do will probably change the large mountain... 20171009 06:17:48< aeth> (and if it's a big cluster of mountains, what things are the big mountains will change) 20171009 06:20:52< aeth> (sorry for taking several lines, I was testing things out in the editor) 20171009 06:33:56< wesnoth-discord-> Also 20171009 06:34:09< wesnoth-discord-> Were forested hills removed from scenario editor 20171009 06:35:40< wesnoth-discord-> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24491&p=616886#p616879 20171009 06:38:16< wesnoth-discord-> Hey that's cool 20171009 06:38:22< wesnoth-discord-> Too bad shift key is half broke 20171009 06:43:42-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20171009 06:49:23-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 06:49:41< wesnoth-discord-> aeth: To some extent, higher CPU usage is caused by higher framerate. 20171009 06:50:31< wesnoth-discord-> 1.12 sleeps too aggressively in an attempt to save CPU, to the extent of causing missed frames. 1.13 tries to avoid it, at a cost of higher CPU usage. 20171009 06:53:04-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@host-213-235-142-18.ip.topnet.cz] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 06:55:27< wesnoth-discord-> aeth: What is 50% zoom? I don't think Wesnoth shows what zoom you're currently at, does it? 20171009 06:58:26< aeth> it doesn't even need to be at 50% to take up all of the CPU 20171009 06:58:47< aeth> but 50% zoom is just the default zoom for the zoom button under the minimap, isn't it? 20171009 06:59:59< wesnoth-discord-> No idea, the hover text is just "Default Zoom". 20171009 07:01:06< aeth> in 1.12 it shows it as 50% and there's a slider where you can adjust it 20171009 07:01:14< aeth> in 1.13 it's just the button 20171009 07:02:42< aeth> quick switching back and forth on the same map in both versions shows that it's the same zoom 20171009 07:03:10< wesnoth-discord-> also, the map is bordering on not playable on Windows due to the build being 32-bit. I've been scrolling around a lot playing with the zoom, and RAM usage is sitting at 4.2 GBs atm. 20171009 07:04:16< wesnoth-discord-> I'm not planning to attempt to reduce memory usage in the engine side. It's harder than reducing CPU usage. 20171009 07:04:44< aeth> I didn't even think to look at the RAM because I have 16 GB and the CPU is more obvious 20171009 07:05:41< wesnoth-discord-> I'd figure the solution would be to try to get the Windows build to be 64-bit like the Mac and Linux builds, but it sounds like that has its own unique challenges as well. 20171009 07:06:16< wesnoth-discord-> It would require building all required libraries as 64-bit as well. Doable, but requires significant effort. 20171009 07:07:15< wesnoth-discord-> As long as the game only gets close to 4GB in huge maps like this one, I think making 64-bit Windows builds isn't worth it. 20171009 07:07:36< aeth> I think I'm going to have to port this map to a custom engine. I'm already pushing performance limits and I've barely added anything on top of the bare minimum proof of concept of the game. 20171009 07:08:00< wesnoth-discord-> Feel free. 20171009 07:08:02< aeth> This map is rare. It's 400x200 and you can't even get that without editing it by hand and then reloading it in the editor. The editor itself will only give you maps up to 200x200 20171009 07:08:32< aeth> I'm guessing fewer than 6 people have done that with a serious map, given the effort to actually add things to it after that. 20171009 07:08:38< wesnoth-discord-> I asked for the map because I believe it helps me to optimize the engine. I believe such optimizations would also help in other maps. 😃 20171009 07:15:11< aeth> feel free to use it for optimization 20171009 07:32:19< wesnoth-discord-> Is there an ETA on the steam release? 20171009 07:32:47< wesnoth-discord-> We're hoping we'd get it out during this year. No promises, though. 20171009 07:33:44< wesnoth-discord-> Ah, I see. Good to hear you guys are still working on it. The game would reach a significantly greater audience I'm sure. 20171009 09:17:58< wesnoth-discord-> hello hello 20171009 09:18:06< wesnoth-discord-> Hi there. 20171009 10:38:45-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171009 11:29:37-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 13:07:27-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171009 14:40:30-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 15:38:22-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 15:51:33-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171009 16:41:05-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 16:51:22-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 18:07:05< wesnoth-discord-> Adam 20171009 18:07:18< wesnoth-discord-> Why is her face red an she's screaming 20171009 18:08:22-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 18:22:16< janebot> wesnoth: Goblin Rousers working as intended? (by /u/-SeriousMike) https://redd.it/75b162 20171009 18:26:30< Necrosporus> Rousers are lvl1 so they can only do things with lvl0 goblins 20171009 18:26:40< Necrosporus> Perhaps his goblins were lvl1 20171009 18:27:48-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@host-213-235-142-18.ip.topnet.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171009 18:32:32< Necrosporus> Rousers seem to work for me in 1.12.6 (I didn't try attacking but damage is increasing from 6-3 to 7-3) 20171009 19:39:51-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171009 20:22:13-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54855A2A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 20:27:42-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54855A2A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171009 20:53:30-!- sevu [~Shiki@p54855A2A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 21:03:42-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171009 21:15:20-!- sigurdfd [~SigurdFD@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 21:39:11-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 21:41:23< wesnoth-discord-> Hey! http://yourgameideaistoobig.com/ says that Wesnoth could be made in 12 years 20171009 21:54:54< celticminstrel> "figures completely made up" 20171009 21:55:16< celticminstrel> My game idea suggests 24 years or over a million dollars. >_> 20171009 21:56:07< celticminstrel> XD Adding "state of the art visuals" quintuples the cost and pushes it to over a hundred years. Definitely made-up. :P 20171009 22:32:36-!- louis94 [~~louis94@241.67-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20171009 22:33:57-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20171009 22:41:45< DeFender1031> @Saran, I only get 3 years from that list... what options did you select? Also, wesnoth HAS been around for 12 years, so... 20171009 22:43:02< DeFender1031> Speaking o which, happy belated birthday, wesnoth! 20171009 23:07:07< wesnoth-discord-> Aye 20171009 23:07:39< wesnoth-discord-> Oh, I selected procedural generation, but as I think Wesnoth has no procedural generation 20171009 23:08:30< wesnoth-discord-> Options I chosen: Art visuals, rpg elements, many classes/characters, campaign story mode, modding tools and all major platforms, 5 years 20171009 23:08:49< DeFender1031> yeah, the visuals aren't "state of the art" 20171009 23:09:07< DeFender1031> that's not to say that they aren't of immensely high quality for what they are 20171009 23:09:38< DeFender1031> but "state of the art" implies the latest in graphics technology, which 2D pixel art certainly is not. 20171009 23:09:48< wesnoth-discord-> oh, alright, my bad 20171009 23:12:12< DeFender1031> I chose RPG, customizable character creation (which I think is referring to in-game, rather than how add-on devs can make custom characters, but whatever), many classes or characters, campaign story mode, branching dialog, modding tools, all major platforms 20171009 23:14:02-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171009 23:23:58-!- louis94 [~~louis94@241.67-65-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] --- Log closed Tue Oct 10 00:00:28 2017