--- Log opened Thu Oct 26 00:00:49 2017 20171026 00:02:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20171026 00:03:05-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 00:05:40-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 00:14:44-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Quit: The Game] 20171026 01:13:55-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:641d:f5bf:f2d3:641] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20171026 01:15:45-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-71-68-228-59.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 01:16:44< wesnoth-discord-> welp 20171026 01:17:00< wesnoth-discord-> i spend five levels on this lycanthropy book only to find out the ranged attack is attack only 20171026 01:20:39-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6953.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20171026 01:54:07-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171026 02:02:52-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171026 02:02:58-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 02:03:45-!- EliDupree [~quassel@2604:a880:400:d0::9bb:2001] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 20171026 02:04:47-!- EliDupree [~quassel@2604:a880:400:d0::9bb:2001] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 02:11:24-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171026 02:16:11-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 02:53:26-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 02:57:27-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171026 04:37:13-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20171026 05:56:07-!- uprego [~uprego@57.red-88-3-136.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 20171026 05:56:07-!- uprego [~uprego@unaffiliated/ushiu] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 07:09:22-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171026 07:13:04-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 09:17:28< wesnoth-discord-> This is what I mean when I mentioned fem!Iron Maulers. This is from an old version of The Reign Of The Lords. 20171026 09:17:28< wesnoth-discord-> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/373037397744680971/warriorfemale.png 20171026 09:21:02< wesnoth-discord-> As you can see, she is wearing armor and has a large flail. 20171026 09:21:20< wesnoth-discord-> No, I did not create this girl. 20171026 09:26:04< wesnoth-discord-> I'm pretty sure that having an exposed head defeats the purpose of Iron Maulers. 20171026 09:28:27< wesnoth-discord-> True. She does evoke a Battle Princess theme, though. But, with heavier armor and a huge flail. 20171026 09:30:50< wesnoth-discord-> What if she has a helmet? 20171026 09:31:38-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 10:02:49< wesnoth-discord-> Having a helmet would defeat the purpose of having long hair in the sprite? 20171026 10:03:09< wesnoth-discord-> Also it would probably be a problem to have long hair+a helmet IRL 20171026 10:03:55< wesnoth-discord-> I like the design, but having a hemlet is ineffective when all of your peers have a... full face helmet? 20171026 10:04:07< wesnoth-discord-> I don't actually know the term. 20171026 10:04:08< wesnoth-discord-> Hmmmmm.... 20171026 10:04:14< wesnoth-discord-> Full helm? 20171026 10:04:30< wesnoth-discord-> Perhaps I can make a special character out of her? 20171026 10:04:41< wesnoth-discord-> And then she becomes indistinguishable. 20171026 10:05:02< wesnoth-discord-> If she's a unique character, nobody actually notices impractical clothing. 20171026 10:05:09< wesnoth-discord-> She can still be distringuishable. See her torso. 20171026 10:05:50< wesnoth-discord-> Alternatively, she could lead from the front lines instead of being a fem!Iron Mauler. 20171026 10:08:12< wesnoth-discord-> Torso differences also work. 20171026 10:09:29< wesnoth-discord-> One idea I have for her is that she becomes a general in a campaign - the first female general in Wesnoth outside of the nobility. 20171026 10:10:12< wesnoth-discord-> Although in her case, she used to lead militias first. 20171026 10:36:30-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 10:51:04-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-alxkrnbbgedsqkhx] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 11:21:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171026 12:05:08-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171026 13:00:20-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 13:04:59-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 13:26:32< wesnoth-discord-> You could use both helmeted and helmetless versions - helmeted during the actual fighting, helmetless during dialogue before/after the fighting. 20171026 13:45:07< wesnoth-discord-> I do need to contact the artist in The Reign Of The Lords to make one. 20171026 13:51:33< wesnoth-discord-> Nah, GNU Public License. 20171026 13:54:39< wesnoth-discord-> *probably GPL. Creative Commons licenses are allowed now as well. 20171026 13:55:07< wesnoth-discord-> Does this mean that I can ask someone else to give her a helmet? 20171026 13:56:15< DeFender1031> Nah, just copy and paste it yourself in paint or something 20171026 13:56:29< wesnoth-discord-> As long as it's not CC-ND, you or anyone else can make changes to it. 20171026 14:00:32< wesnoth-discord-> Okay :3 20171026 14:01:22-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-alxkrnbbgedsqkhx] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20171026 14:03:50-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-rikegamrcowghlfz] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 14:17:03< wesnoth-discord-> You don't need to ask, just credit. 20171026 14:35:34< wesnoth-discord-> [crediting intensifies] 20171026 14:48:26-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.58.76] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 14:53:30< wesnoth-discord-> or you could say that she's wearing a helmet designed to look like a human head 😉 20171026 14:54:01< wesnoth-discord-> 😉 20171026 14:54:12-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-xfrapgryuptxsynd] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 14:56:48-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-rikegamrcowghlfz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171026 15:00:54-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 15:03:44-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-71-68-228-59.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20171026 15:04:01-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171026 15:06:07-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 15:18:11-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.58.76] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20171026 15:25:48-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 15:52:11-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171026 16:02:45-!- HeyCitizen [~citizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 16:05:43-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6953.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 17:02:49-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 17:06:30-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171026 17:27:43-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@2606:a000:7947:5000:58fd:ad92:3f17:5276] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 17:33:01-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Quit: The Game] 20171026 17:39:22-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171026 17:45:12-!- Kranix [~magnus@192.38.137.76] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20171026 17:47:24-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171026 18:01:39-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 18:40:09-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:444a:e7bd:7cae:92fe] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 18:48:55-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 19:02:03-!- uprego is now known as galegosimpatico 20171026 19:03:55< wesnoth-discord-> I started a brief write-up on potential ways to estimate relative unit strength in various fields. I'd appreciate comments/concerns. 20171026 19:03:56< wesnoth-discord-> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/373184992320159745/Wesnoth_unit_balance.odt 20171026 19:08:23< wesnoth-discord-> I don't really know much about multiplayer balancing and Wesnoth multiplayer, but isn't its thing that you balance factions against factions instead of similar units against similar units? 20171026 19:13:56< wesnoth-discord-> The Equal Cost Equal Power Rule suggests that balancing units against other units should be a viable strategy 20171026 19:14:24< wesnoth-discord-> I'm mostly focusing on singleplayer, admittedly- i don't have much multiplayer experience 20171026 19:15:16< wesnoth-discord-> But even if faction to faction balancing is the goal, units that are costed on-par with what they do could be a good starting point 20171026 19:16:09< wesnoth-discord-> With respect, is it even that important to balance singleplayer? In my opinion, an important part of the fun in a strategy game is to figure out which units are overpowered and use them. 20171026 19:22:54< wesnoth-discord-> I would say yes. I'm going to start with an extreme example to illustrate my point, but I believe that it can be scaled to personal preference. I once played a piece of UMC that included a ridiculous unit. It had ~10 movement, flew, had 999 health, and a 60-something berserk drains melee attack. I recruited one and parked it in the center of the map. The entire scenario was destroyed and completely lost all element of fun 20171026 19:22:55< wesnoth-discord-> and strategy. I'd wager that everyone has a point where something being blatantly too strong makes stuff not quite as fun- personally I prefer to have units that are fairly close in power level. 20171026 19:23:25< wesnoth-discord-> Definitely yes. 20171026 19:23:52< zookeeper> yeah, you don't need any sort of formulas to see that such a unit is overpowered if it can break a scenario. 20171026 19:24:13< wesnoth-discord-> Yes, of course it's not fun if there is an obvious literal win button. 20171026 19:24:37< wesnoth-discord-> Since we're talking about a game where you're exclusively fighting AIs, it's not fun when people can come up with a one-size-fits-all solution of spamming one single unit type to destroy everything, like people did to me once with Sylphs. 20171026 19:24:47< wesnoth-discord-> I mainly mean that IMO it's not that important to come up with all kinds of formulas and whatnot as long as it's only for singleplayer. 20171026 19:26:59< wesnoth-discord-> Again, if we can develop good formulas there's potential for use as a starting point for making multiplayer factions as well. There should also be some for investigating existing units in a structured way (see the section on spearmen and impalers, for example). 20171026 19:33:24< wesnoth-discord-> I'm a campaign creator that doesn't know maths. 20171026 19:33:37< wesnoth-discord-> I suspect I'm not part of a minority in that regard. 20171026 19:36:27-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 19:37:44< wesnoth-discord-> I tried to make these fairly easy to calculate. A more mathematically obvious approach is to calculate average damage per potential point and to just compare that to the unit's normal max hp, but I thought it might be easier to compare stuff when you can plug the unit's max hp into a simple formula and compare directly to the result of multiplying the attack damage by the number of attacks. If you're having trouble with this, 20171026 19:37:45< wesnoth-discord-> I'd be curious to know where- maybe somewhere you feel that additional examples or more thorough explanations would help? 20171026 19:38:25< zookeeper> look on the forums for the countless "formula for unit balancing" threads that have existed over the years. they never go anywhere. 20171026 19:43:18-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:444a:e7bd:7cae:92fe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171026 19:46:43< zookeeper> there's no way you can make meaningful balancing like that, because it just doesn't make sense. units don't exist in isolation, the balance is a big tangle of rock-paper-scissors -type relationships between units, and then there's terrain which is obviously as important than any unit stats as such. 20171026 19:47:43< zookeeper> one unit can be way more powerful than another in every calculable fashion, and that's fine. well, not just fine, it's better than if same-level units were even roughly similarly powerful. 20171026 19:55:01< wesnoth-discord-> Right, but you clearly can make unit judgements in isolation. Every unit has one of these done on it to determine its price. There are obviously rock-paper-scissors dynamics and variations based on terrain, but I'm not trying to make same-level units equally powerful, I'm trying to make same-cost units equally powerful. Thanks for the tips on the threads. I'm taking a look to see if they have anything interesting. 20171026 19:56:02< wesnoth-discord-> Human Bowmen and Elvish Fighters have the same cost. 20171026 19:56:17< wesnoth-discord-> They can't be equally powerful since they serve completely different purposes. 20171026 19:57:38< wesnoth-discord-> Mages are more expensive than Spearmen but they're completely unsuitable against them without support. 20171026 20:55:59-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171026 20:56:07-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 20:56:13-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20171026 21:01:29< wesnoth-discord-> Yeah that kind of things would take away the faction diversity 20171026 21:34:02< wesnoth-discord-> like others pointed out its not that important to balance singleplayer, and if you want to make a campaign harder, it does not require balanced units whatsoever, just tweaking gold values will do, until you find the diff sufficient 20171026 21:43:48< wesnoth-discord-> If you want to make a campaign harder, rev up the relentless sadism and the [modifications]. 20171026 22:24:14< wesnoth-discord-> lol, nice picture @Josef Stalin 20171026 22:28:06< wesnoth-discord-> A New Land is up 20171026 22:29:22< wesnoth-discord-> Default + Khalifate with Return Ally Village, Plan Your Advancement and XP Mod 20171026 22:41:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171026 23:08:22-!- oldlaptop [~quassel@45.63.78.126] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 23:19:40-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171026 23:19:46-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 23:54:54-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20171026 23:56:20< wesnoth-discord-> feels good to successfully defend a first night orc rush 20171026 23:56:43< wesnoth-discord-> just put a guy on each threatened vill and let him take the risks --- Log closed Fri Oct 27 00:00:51 2017