--- Log opened Mon Nov 13 00:00:15 2017 20171113 00:08:48< wesnoth-discord-> god, why is wesnoth so good 20171113 00:09:37< wesnoth-discord-> the great feeling of satisfaction when leveling an elvish fighter to elvish captain in a multiplayer match 20171113 00:09:42< wesnoth-discord-> its really something else 20171113 00:54:20-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Quit: The Game] 20171113 00:58:33< aeth> Wesnoth is a game of (1) true randomness and (2) simplicity. Most games fail #1, most of the ones that don't fail #1 fail #2. 20171113 00:59:04< aeth> by true randomness, I mean 70% is really 70%. Many games lie to play on people's wrong intuitions about statistics. 20171113 01:00:23< aeth> The least lying way of doing it probably is to have a card system, so there are e.g. 10 cards and 7 of them say "HIT", but they're still not giving accurate information if 70% really isn't 70% and depends on previous draws (and you can game system that if it applies to more than one unit, or carries across turns). 20171113 01:03:07< aeth> Basically, imo if you give into pressure to make rolls not independent, you have to *have* a complicated combat system that can't be understood, like most games, random and not. 20171113 01:08:07-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171113 01:08:16-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 01:19:18-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171113 01:26:08< wesnoth-discord-> i agree, wesnoth's transparency of game mechanics is quite hard to find in other games these days 20171113 01:26:32< wesnoth-discord-> a lot of the time even when stuff is detailed out in easily accessible files, it's still not simple 20171113 01:27:52< wesnoth-discord-> when stuff is clearly laid out in front of me, i can attribute my own mistakes to inadequacies in my own play, whether good or bad results come from these mistakes 20171113 01:46:57< aeth> What's worse is that many strategy games become completely different games after a few years of active patching, which could mean a complete reworking of the combat system, too. 20171113 01:47:28< aeth> Wesnoth's combat mechanics have mostly been set in stone since the arcane update, which was around 1.2 or 1.4 iirc. 10 years ago? 20171113 01:48:10< aeth> (arcane replacing holy was a major rebalancing of attack types) 20171113 01:48:40< aeth> (even that wasn't as large as what some games do in updates, though) 20171113 01:48:47< wesnoth-discord-> one could argue that's not a good thing 20171113 01:49:46< aeth> Well... For games released before 2008, FOSS and not, I can basically just come back to them and it's the same game. For most newer games, if I miss two years' worth of updates, I have no clue how to even play the game anymore. 20171113 01:50:35< aeth> That is, assuming the game gets continuously updated (Wesnoth is continuously updated so that's what I'm comparing against). 20171113 01:51:21< aeth> These days, many games get huge updates that completely change everything, all the time. 20171113 01:52:23< aeth> They'll fix one balance issue and introduce two more. 20171113 01:52:37< aeth> So the not-yet-nerfed metagame is continuously changing. 20171113 01:53:50< wesnoth-discord-> yeah, games like dota change every 6 months or so 20171113 01:53:52< wesnoth-discord-> but that's good 20171113 01:53:55< wesnoth-discord-> prevents a stale meta 20171113 01:54:27< wesnoth-discord-> like, the 7.00 update introduced Talent trees 20171113 01:54:46< wesnoth-discord-> imo, stale meta is not a problem if the game is both deep and well-balanced enough - meta would be constantly shifting, ideally 20171113 01:55:10< aeth> A constantly changing game makes it really hard to get back into the game. I probably put in 1500 hours of Europa Universalis IV and then didn't play it for a year or two. I tried to get back in it but it's like Europa Universalis VII at this point. 20171113 01:55:14< wesnoth-discord-> It's hard to make such a good game though 20171113 01:56:38< wesnoth-discord-> even chess is getting a bit stale finally 20171113 01:56:58< wesnoth-discord-> chess is the definition of unchanging meta šŸ˜› 20171113 01:57:05< aeth> It's also pricey to get back into a game if it's not F2P. e.g. buying EU4 expansions as they come out isn't a big deal, but buying tons of them even at 50% discount for most of them is *expensive*, even though with $/hour terms it is economical because that game is a real time sink. 20171113 01:57:05< wesnoth-discord-> no man 20171113 01:57:19< wesnoth-discord-> er, not unchanging meta 20171113 01:57:20< wesnoth-discord-> sorry 20171113 01:57:26< wesnoth-discord-> i meant an unchanging game 20171113 01:57:31< wesnoth-discord-> people way back used to play openings that were not sound, the game's metagame shifted a lot 20171113 01:57:33< wesnoth-discord-> mehcanics-wise 20171113 01:57:51< wesnoth-discord-> actually the game was changed but only a tiny bit with introduction of rules like 50 turns draw 20171113 01:57:55< wesnoth-discord-> or en passant 20171113 01:58:09< wesnoth-discord-> yeah 20171113 01:58:10< wesnoth-discord-> like the game's metagame went through whole phases like the romantic era 20171113 01:58:18< wesnoth-discord-> with swashbuckling and sacrifices that were actually not sound lol 20171113 01:58:24< wesnoth-discord-> but not like... Chess Patch 1.5: introduced new piece 20171113 01:58:49< wesnoth-discord-> well yeah 20171113 01:58:50< wesnoth-discord-> lol 20171113 01:58:53< aeth> because the chess organization isn't foolish 20171113 01:59:08< aeth> introducing new pieces to a mature game makes it a completely different game 20171113 01:59:08< wesnoth-discord-> but, no need to fix what ain't broke 20171113 02:00:30< aeth> Chess does get periodic rules updates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess#Codification 20171113 02:00:49< aeth> But they're much closer to Wesnoth's rules updates. Tiny balance updates, not a complete changing of the nature of the game that should be reserved for a sequel. 20171113 02:01:33< wesnoth-discord-> lol, rule about mobile phones 20171113 02:02:02< aeth> Oh, and good luck making a sequel to chess, btw. Chess 2 is probably the only game that would be more of a disappointment-no-matter-what than Half Life 3. :-p 20171113 02:02:35< aeth> But, really, there would need to be a Chess 2 if you wanted to get rid of the excessive memorization and bring back situational tactics. 20171113 02:03:27< aeth> Chess is too deterministic and well-studied. 20171113 02:03:29< wesnoth-discord-> Sequels are not as cool as one-shots imo 20171113 02:03:51< wesnoth-discord-> maybe chess will get solved in the next century or so 20171113 02:03:58< wesnoth-discord-> and people will turn to go 20171113 02:04:04< wesnoth-discord-> go is pretty cool too 20171113 02:04:59< aeth> iirc, some grandmaster came up with a proposed solution to excessive memorization in chess and it was something like a random starting state. 20171113 02:05:17< aeth> probably a bit more sophisticated and fair than that 20171113 02:05:30< aeth> but if chess ever got "solved", people would just move to a variant of it 20171113 02:06:01< aeth> There are many variants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chess_variants 20171113 02:06:18< wesnoth-discord-> you mean chess960 20171113 02:06:18< aeth> The advantage of a chess variant as a board game is people are familiar with the piece movement, which is usually unchanged or very similar to vanilla chess. 20171113 02:06:30< wesnoth-discord-> it's pretty cool but first turn can be imba sometimes 20171113 02:06:37< aeth> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960 20171113 02:06:41< aeth> Probably. 20171113 02:06:47< wesnoth-discord-> i mean in some situations 20171113 02:06:58< wesnoth-discord-> you are practically getting a forced mate or something 20171113 02:07:02< wesnoth-discord-> just because of first turn 20171113 02:07:38< aeth> I had more fun with chess variants online than vanilla chess, back when I was into chess many years ago. There are so many of them, and many are quite fun. And since there are so many of them, it's more about adaptation than memorization. 20171113 02:11:25< aeth> In a sense, "chess" is like "solitaire" in that there are thousands of variants, dozens of fun variants, and only a few (one in the case of chess, two (Klondike and Freecell) in the case of solitaire) popular variants. 20171113 02:12:51< wesnoth-discord-> Some of the variants can be pretty fun. I remember at my highschool chess club we used to play with 2 boards and 4 players 20171113 02:13:04< wesnoth-discord-> captured pieces could be passed to your teammate and dropped 20171113 02:13:53< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth has this je ne sais quoi to its mixture of stuff though 20171113 02:14:02< wesnoth-discord-> I actually like the randomness quite a bit 20171113 02:14:14< wesnoth-discord-> even when it screws me over, sometimes not even for mistakes 20171113 02:14:20< wesnoth-discord-> It's like gambling 20171113 02:14:34< wesnoth-discord-> I think if I didn't play wesnoth, and if I had money, I would gamble 20171113 02:16:41< aeth> The thing is, Wesnoth isn't gambling. Play it enough and the enemy will miss as many 3-strike 70% chance to hit magical attacks as you will miss against the enemy. It's about reacting to when randomness doesn't go your way. 20171113 02:17:03< aeth> With gambling, you *will* lose in the long run unless you restrict yourself to skill-based gambling like poker. 20171113 02:17:24< wesnoth-discord-> Of course I would restrict myself to skill-based gambling 20171113 02:17:30< wesnoth-discord-> just rolling the dice by itself is no fun 20171113 02:18:14< wesnoth-discord-> Wesnoth isn't gambling, but it has a hint of that devilish madness that randomness holds 20171113 02:18:20< wesnoth-discord-> which is really the heart of gambling 20171113 02:18:25< wesnoth-discord-> imo 20171113 02:18:27< celticminstrel> aeth: Chess isn't like solitaire in the slightest. 20171113 02:18:33< celticminstrel> Solitaire is not a game. 20171113 02:18:41< celticminstrel> It's more of a descriptor TBH. 20171113 02:18:51< celticminstrel> And it doesn't even always involve cards. 20171113 02:19:36< celticminstrel> But speaking of popular Solitaires in cards, there are actually three popular ones, not two. 20171113 02:26:31< aeth> celticminstrel: Solitaire frequently refers to the set of loosely related single player card games 20171113 02:26:54< celticminstrel> Very loosely related... I'm not really sure if they are related TBH. 20171113 02:27:03< celticminstrel> It also refers to a single-player board game BTW. 20171113 02:27:14< aeth> e.g. Wikipedia defines "patience or solitaire" as "a genre of card games that can be played by a single player". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patience_(game) 20171113 02:27:34< aeth> There are other uses of the word "solitaire" but "solitaire" itself redirects to the page on Patience 20171113 02:27:35< celticminstrel> Yeah, calling it a "genre" feels better. 20171113 02:28:08< aeth> but, anyway, I think the solitaire/patience genre is fairly similar to the chess variants genre, even though the latter tends to be multiplayer. 20171113 02:28:30< aeth> Similar (if not identical) pieces/cards and you generally know about 70% of the mechanics if you're familiar with the genre 20171113 02:28:41< celticminstrel> I dunno about that... 20171113 02:28:53< aeth> And on a computer you could easily use the same engine to similuate many games of the genre 20171113 02:28:58< aeth> In one game. 20171113 02:29:05< celticminstrel> I guess it's true that a lot of solitaires have the mechanic of building stacks of cards with consecutive values. 20171113 02:29:22< celticminstrel> Though that's not universal - Pyramid, for example. 20171113 02:29:39< aeth> Most popular patience/solitaire games will be familiar to people who play both Klondike and Freecell. And they often seem like a mix of the two. 20171113 02:29:52< celticminstrel> (FTR the other popular one is Spider, which requires two decks of cards.) 20171113 02:30:05< aeth> Yes, there are several that use multiple decks 20171113 02:30:11 * celticminstrel has actually played it with real cards on occasion. 20171113 02:30:50< aeth> For the most part, though, both patience/solitaire games and chess variants could be (and often are) put in one game as mini-games because they're so similar. 20171113 02:31:05< aeth> graphically, mechanically, etc. 20171113 02:31:29< aeth> (to be clear, I mean either set could be combined into one game, not both!) 20171113 02:31:42< celticminstrel> Solitaires are, for sure. I haven't seen this with chess variants. That said, I'm still 100% sure that you could do it. 20171113 02:32:37< aeth> Well, I have seen websites online (back in the Java applet and Flash days... they're probably much more sophisticated now) that host dozens/hundreds of chess variants. 20171113 02:33:09< aeth> Behind the scenes, they were probably separate applets for practical purposes (download times), but the most plausible implementation detail would be sharing almost all of their code in common. 20171113 03:08:39< wesnoth-discord-> @Steampeng there's an 18th century warfare mod, not sure if the modern warfare mod is on 1.12 20171113 03:10:01< wesnoth-discord-> While not quite what I'm looking for, that actually helpful. Thanks py. 20171113 03:10:08-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 03:14:07-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171113 03:26:18-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 04:05:15< wesnoth-discord-> drake burners look weird breathing fire over their own heads 20171113 04:10:48< aeth> The problem with modern warfare and beyond (yes, 18th century is technically modern) is that the abstract scale and the lack of real range stands out more, at least imo. 20171113 04:31:29-!- soloojos [~soloojos@gateway/tor-sasl/soloojos] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171113 04:48:34< wesnoth-discord-> There's technically even at least one mod with spaceships as the units 20171113 04:48:38< wesnoth-discord-> not that it's much different 20171113 04:49:08< wesnoth-discord-> There's a number of implementations of real ranged attacks; the "Ranged Era" is an example, I think 20171113 05:01:41-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20171113 05:02:52< aeth> The problem with real ranged in Wesnoth is not just that "hexes may possibly be miles across" (or whatever the phrase is), but also that hexes *vary* in scale depending on the situation. 20171113 05:02:59< aeth> The scale is very abstract. 20171113 05:05:13< aeth> Is that village a building or a collection of buildings or an entire village or an entire city? Depends on the map. Caves tend to be more "zoomed in" than not. There are also walls and "indoors". 20171113 05:05:26< wesnoth-discord-> lol yeah 20171113 05:05:30< wesnoth-discord-> This is true 20171113 05:05:48< aeth> Is a unit a collection of units? That's also unclear. They do have names. Is it an important leader and the bodyguards of that leader? Maybe. There are also RPGs on the Wesnoth engine that fix in a closer scale and one unit = one being. 20171113 05:06:14< wesnoth-discord-> But it's totally reasonable to do real ranged in the scope of a single mod 20171113 05:06:30< aeth> And generally one village = one building, when that's the case. But, really, the buildings are still far too small and should be 4(ish) hexes minimum in an RPG on the Wesnoth engine, but they're not. Usually. 20171113 05:06:33< celticminstrel> The scale may vary even within a single campaign. 20171113 05:06:42< aeth> Not may, it usually does. 20171113 05:06:45< celticminstrel> In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it sometimes varies even in a single scenario. 20171113 05:06:54< aeth> Sometimes you're right next to a city (e.g. Elensefar) and sometimes you're crossing a long distance 20171113 05:07:51< aeth> Wesnothian scale is very abstract, and to make good maps you have to take advantage of that. They definitely vary within a single scenario. Areas of interest, indoors areas, caves, etc., tend to be larger than areas of no interest, like a forest in the middle of nowhere. On the same map. 20171113 05:08:20< aeth> It works well as long as you don't think about it, and real range doesn't really fit it because it makes you think about it. 20171113 05:08:57< aeth> A modern Wesnoth mod would probably be better off with multiple people as units (which a lot of hex-based turn-based strategy games do) to make it clear, and a real range that doesn't go that far, if at all. 20171113 05:09:12< aeth> i.e. represent a musketeer as three people, not one, or something 20171113 05:56:02-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20171113 06:50:23-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 06:57:40-!- nore [~ncourant@sas.eleves.ens.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.8] 20171113 07:14:06-!- Smedles [~quassel@2001:8003:a9b9:6400:a21d:48ff:fec7:ff5c] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171113 07:14:26-!- Smedles [~quassel@CPE-58-174-138-17.mjcz1.woo.bigpond.net.au] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 08:07:37-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 08:10:41-!- nore [~ncourant@sas.eleves.ens.fr] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 08:29:19-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 08:42:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171113 08:42:58-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 09:24:26-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 10:47:35-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171113 12:26:35-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has quit [Changing host] 20171113 12:26:35-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@wesnoth/developer/rhonda] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 12:28:58-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171113 12:59:32-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 13:20:26< wesnoth-discord-> You could do a mix, ala Warsong/Langrisser 20171113 13:20:33< wesnoth-discord-> Where Heroes are solos but mooks are groups 20171113 13:22:02-!- amir|2 [~amir@public.metalab.wien.funkfeuer.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 13:29:14< wesnoth-discord-> terrain is sort of a representation but comparing houses to trees in a forest, well, village is a representation, other terrain types most likely arent 20171113 13:30:43< wesnoth-discord-> and a single unit is a single unit and it is the only option, because wesnoth is not meant to portray a large battle with hundreds of units but skirmishes with only a few. Some people who tried to build very large battles, it looks nice but to actually play it, meh, not very fun, its tedious 20171113 13:31:47< wesnoth-discord-> btw try eastern europe at war 20171113 13:42:59-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 14:00:34-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@97-127-153-118.cdrr.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171113 14:04:22-!- Vadatajs [~Vadatajs@97-127-153-118.cdrr.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 14:20:55< wesnoth-discord-> I need to master how to make frankenunits 20171113 14:43:48-!- amir|2 [~amir@public.metalab.wien.funkfeuer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20171113 15:44:47-!- amir|2 [~amir@80-110-85-87.cgn.dynamic.surfer.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 16:09:38-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 16:46:26-!- Emerald_Witch [uid1929@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nzprahpndpvhqwsl] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 17:08:31-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171113 17:15:37< wesnoth-discord-> IMO Wesnoth's abstract scale is great, since it allows various different scenarios to be represented 20171113 17:16:11< wesnoth-discord-> the last scenario of HttT, for instance, would realistically be a battle involving thousands of people 20171113 17:16:33< wesnoth-discord-> but if each person were represented as one unit, that would be completely unpractical, gameplay-wise 20171113 17:17:30< wesnoth-discord-> villages are a bit weird in that regard, though 20171113 17:18:32< wesnoth-discord-> I think they would fit better if they were called a "House" or "Dwelling" 20171113 17:19:31< wesnoth-discord-> it is a bit strange that a "Village" is represented by a single dwelling, and it makes more sense to represent an entire village with a single dwelling than the other way around IMO 20171113 17:20:51< wesnoth-discord-> specially since all other building terrains in Wesnoth are one building, not entire settlements (the windmill, for example) 20171113 17:27:06-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 17:29:21-!- prophile [~alynn@oftn/oswg-member/prophile] has quit [Quit: The Game] 20171113 17:54:40-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 17:56:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171113 17:59:52-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 18:09:49< janebot> wesnoth: Multiplayer and Friends (by /u/Ros_s) https://redd.it/7coymg 20171113 18:13:04-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:b889:358e:5f1b:13eb] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 18:44:57-!- aeth_ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 18:47:41-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171113 18:50:16-!- aeth_ is now known as aeth 20171113 18:51:32-!- vslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 18:54:08-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171113 18:54:36-!- amir|2 [~amir@80-110-85-87.cgn.dynamic.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20171113 19:24:58< wesnoth-discord-> In some add-ons villages are 1:1 houses. 20171113 20:33:10-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171113 21:15:33-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20171113 21:51:49-!- heyalex[m] [heyalexmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gsulcjnuyqbzxuvv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20171113 21:51:49-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20171113 21:51:51-!- elouin1 [~elouin@fob.spline.inf.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20171113 21:53:10-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 21:55:48-!- elouin1 [~elouin@fob.spline.inf.fu-berlin.de] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 22:00:08-!- desttinghim[m] [desttinghi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nuyhtagyligdrfxc] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20171113 22:00:09-!- madmax28 [madmax28ma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-oxhemshmrugjkrcv] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20171113 22:06:52-!- heyalex[m] [heyalexmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gwmkoiktxtvlwpax] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 22:21:09< wesnoth-discord-> Seems fair enough IRC. 20171113 22:40:29-!- desttinghim[m] [desttinghi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nrosppzdjckunmdl] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 22:40:30-!- madmax28 [madmax28ma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-fegpdabcozblcthw] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 22:58:39< wesnoth-discord-> Iā€™d prefer if villages were made 2x2 or 3x3, where you had to fight for control over it in order to use ot 20171113 22:58:41< wesnoth-discord-> It 20171113 23:04:08-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20171113 23:09:51-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171113 23:27:04-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20171113 23:33:09< DeFender1031> fighting IN the village, huh? 20171113 23:34:35< DeFender1031> Problem is, they might be too hard to use (dying units more likely to get killed since they're the ones there battling for it) and they might be too overpowered if you actually do get to use them (heal multiple units with one village) 20171113 23:35:02< DeFender1031> Then again, you can technically heal up to six with one healer, so it wouldn't be so crazy for that to be true of villages... 20171113 23:37:26< DeFender1031> Thinking more about it, it actually MIGHT be interesting to have it that, say, villages were 7 hexes large (a central hex with 6 surrounding) and that you only get income from them if you control them exclusively, and only units that aren't adjacent to an enemy get healing from them. 20171113 23:38:01< DeFender1031> (Village income from allied sides with shared control of a village would have to be worked out though...) 20171113 23:41:00< wesnoth-discord-> (Not my knowledge, I was quoting @Grickit Gambit #2011). 20171113 23:42:28< wesnoth-discord-> I would imagine that whoever hold the center tile between the two allies would get the income? 20171113 23:43:00< DeFender1031> (Though it could be whichever ally claimed the village first or, if the village was contested while both of them were on it, whichever side it belonged to before it became contested, or, if its most recent owner was none of the allies present, then whichever side dealt the killing blow to the final enemy unit contesting it, or, if the village became uncontested by the enemy leaving or dying some other way, whichever side has 20171113 23:43:01< DeFender1031> more units there or, if they have the same number, whichever ally's turn is soonest...) 20171113 23:43:37< DeFender1031> Center tile could also be a thing, though it only works if you MUST ahave center tile to claim it. 20171113 23:43:48< DeFender1031> Which I would think shouldn't be necessary 20171113 23:43:59< DeFender1031> Otherwise, you can have allies both on it but on outer tiles 20171113 23:44:15< DeFender1031> The progression that I just mentioned seems fairest to me... 20171113 23:45:15< wesnoth-discord-> How about Center tile owner Number of hexes claimed Turn first hex claimed 20171113 23:45:20< DeFender1031> Basically, if it belonged to one of them, then they are fighting to reclaim it for that one. If not, then the side that ended the skirmish gets the spoils, and if that's not what happened, then whichever needs it more gets it. 20171113 23:45:33< DeFender1031> @Visage, I don't follow 20171113 23:45:47< DeFender1031> oh 20171113 23:45:49< DeFender1031> nevermind 20171113 23:45:50< wesnoth-discord-> If the center tile is claimed, it goes to that owner 20171113 23:45:54< wesnoth-discord-> ...yeah 20171113 23:45:55< DeFender1031> i figured out what you menat 20171113 23:46:10< DeFender1031> separating punctuation of some kind would have helped 20171113 23:46:13< DeFender1031> anyway 20171113 23:46:17< wesnoth-discord-> Probably 20171113 23:46:18< wesnoth-discord-> :c 20171113 23:47:01< wesnoth-discord-> This multi-hex village also has the benefit of allowing someone to use his ally's village to heal without stealing income 20171113 23:47:11< DeFender1031> it could also be which one got there first to begin with 20171113 23:47:25< DeFender1031> right. 20171113 23:47:26< DeFender1031> hmm 20171113 23:47:38< DeFender1031> so then maybe "you only claim if on center hex" DOES make sense. 20171113 23:47:41-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:b889:358e:5f1b:13eb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171113 23:48:03< DeFender1031> that way, villages in an uncontested area of the map can be retreated to by owner and ally alike without stealing it 20171113 23:48:07< wesnoth-discord-> The center hex would also deny healing to hostiles on the rest of the hexes 20171113 23:48:17< DeFender1031> you're an ally and want to use a village without taking it? use an outer hex 20171113 23:48:49< wesnoth-discord-> Which makes it prime candidate for "who owns this place" 20171113 23:48:50< DeFender1031> also true. 20171113 23:49:25< DeFender1031> hmm... and I guess hostiles at opposite ends of a village COULD theoretically both get healing from the same one despite it being contested 20171113 23:49:30< DeFender1031> but i'm not sure that'd be an issue. 20171113 23:50:55< DeFender1031> it'd probably be possible to make a mod that worked this way, though there'd need to be maps made that accommodated it as well, as I'd imagine that just automatically expanding all villages by one hex in each direction would cause some maps to become problematic 20171113 23:51:14< wesnoth-discord-> I mean 20171113 23:51:33< wesnoth-discord-> You couuuld just make it so that the healing area is expanded and nothing else? 20171113 23:51:37< DeFender1031> also, if things did work this way, it might also be nice to dispense with village defense and have actual terrain types within villages 20171113 23:52:01< DeFender1031> yeah, that'd be close to this, though it wouldn't have all the above-described rules 20171113 23:52:35< DeFender1031> for example, a contested village would still belong to whoever was on the center hex 20171113 23:52:45< wesnoth-discord-> mm 20171113 23:53:06< wesnoth-discord-> And people on the village would still get healed while in an enemy's ZOC 20171113 23:53:40< wesnoth-discord-> Though you might be able to just apply the rules we talked about to the environs of the village 20171113 23:54:01< wesnoth-discord-> but that's basically just taking the interesting mechanics from the idea and discarding the inspiration 20171113 23:54:02< wesnoth-discord-> lol 20171113 23:54:13< DeFender1031> taking the idea even further (because i'm insane like this), villages could work similarly to castles, where any contiguous area of village was considered part of the same village. 20171113 23:55:15< DeFender1031> though if that were the case, you'd probably want income to be variable per village based on some calculation of the number of tiles in the village, and perhaps how spread out it is. 20171113 23:59:44< wesnoth-discord-> lol 20171113 23:59:50< wesnoth-discord-> That is indeed kinda insane --- Log closed Tue Nov 14 00:00:17 2017