--- Log opened Tue Nov 14 00:00:17 2017 20171114 00:01:16< DeFender1031> Of course, that's not likely to happen, but it's always fun to come up with insane ideas that would be cool. 20171114 00:01:59< wesnoth-discord-> Hmm 20171114 00:02:30< wesnoth-discord-> Maybe #villages*longest dimension? 20171114 00:02:44< wesnoth-discord-> so 1 village=1*1 20171114 00:02:56< wesnoth-discord-> 2 villages = 2*2 20171114 00:03:09< wesnoth-discord-> 3 in a triangle = 3*2 20171114 00:03:16< wesnoth-discord-> 3 in a line = 3*3 20171114 00:03:35< wesnoth-discord-> And you don't get anything if any of the squares is contested 20171114 00:08:54< wesnoth-discord-> Or maybe just #villages+longest dimension 20171114 00:09:31< wesnoth-discord-> so then n villages in a line is equal to n*2 villages 20171114 00:11:27< DeFender1031> hmm 20171114 00:12:34< wesnoth-discord-> Since 3 villages being 9 villages' worth of income seems a bit much 20171114 00:12:35< wesnoth-discord-> lol 20171114 00:12:53< DeFender1031> i'd probably suggest even less... perhaps half or a quarter of what you said and rounded. 20171114 00:13:59< DeFender1031> but yeah, if we're talking about villages that will usually be 7 hexes and 3 across, you'd want that to come out as something closer to 2 than to 10 20171114 00:14:29< DeFender1031> there's also the question of support. 20171114 00:14:53< DeFender1031> (which is essentially gold that you only get to use if you have a unit who needs it) 20171114 00:15:04< wesnoth-discord-> hmm 20171114 00:15:09< wesnoth-discord-> That's an interesting idea 20171114 00:15:47< DeFender1031> point is, even if all the requirements to make this work WERE done, it'd also require a bunch of balancing to get the values to not be too little or too much 20171114 00:16:03< wesnoth-discord-> I was approaching the contiguous village idea from the standpoint of "There are n villages on the map, but some of them are stuck together now" 20171114 00:16:04< DeFender1031> what's an interesting idea? 20171114 00:16:29< wesnoth-discord-> Your suggestion of "support" 20171114 00:16:34< wesnoth-discord-> is what I was referring to 20171114 00:16:39< DeFender1031> that's already a concept in the game 20171114 00:16:45< DeFender1031> it's not my idea 20171114 00:16:57< wesnoth-discord-> ....I wasn't aware of it existing 😛 20171114 00:17:29< DeFender1031> you'd never noticed that you pay less upkeep on units the more villages you have? 20171114 00:17:35< wesnoth-discord-> Nope 20171114 00:17:44< wesnoth-discord-> Well 20171114 00:17:51< DeFender1031> (up to the point where it matches your upkeep, of course) 20171114 00:18:07< wesnoth-discord-> I have noticed it somewhat, but never looked into it 20171114 00:18:17< DeFender1031> you'll notice that sometimes capturing a village will raise your income by 2, and sometimes only by 1. 20171114 00:18:21< wesnoth-discord-> and didn't keep track of the math strictly 20171114 00:18:24< wesnoth-discord-> ....yes 20171114 00:18:37< DeFender1031> the reason being whether or not you've got units taking upkeep 20171114 00:18:43< wesnoth-discord-> ahhhh 20171114 00:18:47< wesnoth-discord-> yeah, ok 20171114 00:18:56< wesnoth-discord-> up to 1/2 your potential income 20171114 00:18:59< DeFender1031> each village lowers your upkeep cost by 1 20171114 00:19:09< wesnoth-discord-> Well, then 20171114 00:19:29< wesnoth-discord-> If mega-villages aren't supposed to consist of multiple villages' worth of income 20171114 00:19:33< DeFender1031> but does not give you that surplus in gold if you already have an upkeep of 0 20171114 00:19:55< wesnoth-discord-> it makes sense to make them village+longest dimension in upkeep 20171114 00:20:04< DeFender1031> so that's the thing. I'm thinking that mega-villages SHOULD consist of more gold than the current single hex villages do 20171114 00:20:13< DeFender1031> but not as a one-to-one 20171114 00:20:24< DeFender1031> because then you'd just get way too much income. 20171114 00:20:45< wesnoth-discord-> More gold specifically, or would more support suffice? 20171114 00:20:56< DeFender1031> also, the thing about spread is because it's presumably easier to defend a compact village than a long one. 20171114 00:20:57< wesnoth-discord-> (I meant support when I said upkeep above) 20171114 00:21:04< wesnoth-discord-> yeah 20171114 00:21:07< DeFender1031> hmm 20171114 00:21:09< wesnoth-discord-> ZoCs and all 20171114 00:21:39< DeFender1031> i'd think that even 1 support per hex might be a little OP. 20171114 00:21:51< DeFender1031> i mean, it really depends 20171114 00:22:08< DeFender1031> if there's going to be as many villages on the map as there are currently, then definitely OP. 20171114 00:22:33< wesnoth-discord-> probably ~75% of the villages we have now? 20171114 00:22:47< DeFender1031> if there will be fewer villages on the map, but larger, such that there's the same number of village HEXES (or maybe slightly more) than on average maps now, then perhaps it wouldn't be OP 20171114 00:23:07< wesnoth-discord-> plus, not all megavillages will be simple lines of village 20171114 00:23:41< wesnoth-discord-> so our hypothetical 3x3 would just be 1 gold+3support 20171114 00:23:46< wesnoth-discord-> Which doesn't sound OP at all 20171114 00:23:53< wesnoth-discord-> Given how much map it takes up 20171114 00:24:02< DeFender1031> it could also make for some more interesting campaign objectives. E.G. "Regain control of the village and hold it for 3 turns" 20171114 00:24:10< DeFender1031> oh 20171114 00:24:32< DeFender1031> wait, you're saying now 1 gold per mega-village, and support equal to the spread? 20171114 00:25:59< DeFender1031> nah, I'd still think that for a 20-hex village, you ought to get more than one gold. 20171114 00:26:27< DeFender1031> perhaps 1 gold per each 5 hexes or something... 20171114 00:26:31< DeFender1031> I dunno 20171114 00:26:34< DeFender1031> anyway, I gotta go. 20171114 00:26:43< DeFender1031> Thanks for the interesting discussion 20171114 00:26:47< wesnoth-discord-> aight o/ 20171114 00:27:17< wesnoth-discord-> but yeah, I said If mega-villages aren't supposed to consist of multiple villages' worth of income it makes sense to make them village+longest dimension in upkeep 20171114 00:36:42-!- mystic_x [~X@unaffiliated/mysticx] has quit [Quit: bye] 20171114 00:52:58-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 00:58:48-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 01:38:18-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.75.127] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 01:53:31-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.75.127] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20171114 02:20:16-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 03:00:08-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171114 03:03:53-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 03:09:02-!- ArneBab [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 03:13:03-!- ArneBab_ [~quassel@freenet/developer/arnebab] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171114 03:43:41< wesnoth-discord-> A Cavalryman with two swords would be amusing 20171114 04:27:55< wesnoth-discord-> What about a cavalryman wielding two swords? 20171114 04:30:19< wesnoth-discord-> What about a Calvary horse wielding two swords 20171114 04:39:39-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 04:39:47-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 04:49:03-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171114 05:09:34< wesnoth-discord-> @EoZ as elves vs loyalist, i was massing wose earlier (mostly wose with few fighters and two archers), vs loyalist opponent with lieutenant leader 20171114 05:10:17< wesnoth-discord-> confirm this for me, or if it's wrong, please help: i should mass wose on BOTH sides and not just one side, before i am able to attack 20171114 05:10:51< wesnoth-discord-> what i found was that the leadership during daytime gave mages way too much damage 20171114 05:11:13< wesnoth-discord-> 16-3 can almost kill a wose from full hp 20171114 05:11:30< wesnoth-discord-> and if you use the wose to attack anything, whether it's a spearman or even a mage, it will most likely take those few hps of retal damage 20171114 05:12:09< wesnoth-discord-> on the subject of attacking vs leadership, is this generally the case, that you should make two-pronged attacks? 20171114 05:12:29< wesnoth-discord-> the raw power of leadership is really something else 20171114 05:14:00-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 05:14:37< wesnoth-discord-> also, do i need a single mage with that army for fencers? 20171114 05:15:03< wesnoth-discord-> it's quite risky to attack them with elvish fighters or woses because of retal and 60% 20171114 05:15:39< wesnoth-discord-> i was thinking that a mage might be helpful in such scenarios. the downside of having that mage would be just less bulk for the army 20171114 05:29:01-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20171114 05:43:52-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 06:08:10-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20171114 06:37:31-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 06:37:38-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 07:34:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 07:36:36< wesnoth-discord-> A Cavalryman-type unit with both swords would be an absolute destroyer in melee. 20171114 07:41:49-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 07:49:51< wesnoth-discord-> re: rebels vs lieutenant: i just tried it and it seems effective 20171114 07:50:13< wesnoth-discord-> at that point i think loyalist player's best option is to make some kind of timing push on one side with the leader 20171114 07:50:38< wesnoth-discord-> because you would have your woses spread out on both sides of the map 20171114 07:50:47< wesnoth-discord-> slightly more on the weaker side 20171114 07:51:22< wesnoth-discord-> about two swords - it is actually impractical to wield two equally long swords 20171114 07:51:31< wesnoth-discord-> they get in the way of each other 20171114 07:51:48< wesnoth-discord-> so, people usually dualwielded with one short one 20171114 07:52:05< wesnoth-discord-> if you for some reason needed to stop a really big thing with your swords 20171114 07:52:10< wesnoth-discord-> like idk an ogre's club 20171114 07:52:14< wesnoth-discord-> two swords would be better than one 20171114 07:52:40< wesnoth-discord-> but at that point you should just a) not fight him up close or 2) grab a shield 20171114 07:52:52< wesnoth-discord-> well, it doesn't really matter because its just fantasy 20171114 08:22:24-!- Lirion [~m00se@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has quit [Quit: echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D4D465452snlb xq |dc] 20171114 08:35:26< zookeeper> even if you don't wield two swords at the same time, you should always carry two. first you throw one at the enemy, then you go hit them with the other one. :> 20171114 08:37:08< zookeeper> also i'm pretty sure that if you wanted to stop a really big thing, you'd have much much better success with one sword two-handed than with two swords. 20171114 08:39:31< wesnoth-discord-> yes, you would be able to hold the blade and use the sword as a sort of "bar" 20171114 08:44:39< zookeeper> that, or just normally hold it two-handed since that would still be much stronger than two swords held one-handed, combined. 20171114 08:47:26< zookeeper> or, if not technically stronger as such, then at least a whole lot more easier to manage. 20171114 09:01:21< wesnoth-discord-> easier to manage is key, yes 20171114 09:01:48< wesnoth-discord-> with two swords you are basically allowing both your weapons to be controlled at the same time when you block it in an x shape 20171114 09:02:00< wesnoth-discord-> and if you want to attack with them, they get in the way of each other 20171114 09:02:32< wesnoth-discord-> that said i think there is basically no good way of stopping a "really big weapon" 20171114 09:02:46< wesnoth-discord-> if you try to block it your sword may shatter or be otherwise broken 20171114 09:03:08< wesnoth-discord-> best to just try and get out of the way 20171114 09:03:25< wesnoth-discord-> really big weapons usually require really big guys to wield them 20171114 09:28:03< zookeeper> well, of course if you need to block as in just try to stop the other guy's weapon by sticking yours in the way, you're already doing it wrong. 20171114 09:32:19< zookeeper> seems to be a common trope in movies, but blocking with two blades in an x shape seems... well, fundamentally ineffective. if you really needed to do it with both, then holding them parallel seems like a much better idea. 20171114 09:43:13< wesnoth-discord-> that gets done in media sometimes but it is much rarer 20171114 10:13:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 10:13:50-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 11:48:51-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 12:02:45-!- zookeeper_ [~lmsnie@95.175.104.86] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 12:03:12-!- vslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 12:03:29-!- vslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 12:04:47-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171114 12:57:52-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 13:27:16-!- zookeeper_ is now known as zookeeper 20171114 13:27:19-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@95.175.104.86] has quit [Changing host] 20171114 13:27:19-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 13:52:38-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-139-219-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 13:52:38-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-139-219-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171114 13:55:06-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-139-219-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 13:55:11-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@46-116-196-40.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20171114 13:56:53< wesnoth-discord-> The idea that I have with the Cavalryman-type with dual wield is that he attacks with both swords at the same time. 20171114 13:57:17< wesnoth-discord-> As for blocking maneuvers, it would so by holding the blade parallel. 20171114 14:00:03< DeFender> How about just give the Cavalryman a bat'leth and save everyone the trouble? 20171114 14:00:24< wesnoth-discord-> Bat'leth? 20171114 14:01:49< wesnoth-discord-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat%27leth 20171114 14:03:38< wesnoth-discord-> Would it be possible for someone like the Cavalier to dual wield his swords from horseback instead? 20171114 14:05:21< DeFender> It was a Star Trek joke. I was commenting on the ridiculousness of some of the ideas people have about how weapons are used. 20171114 14:07:34< wesnoth-discord-> I'm more of a realist about how the weapons are used. 20171114 14:19:04< zookeeper> ...how the heck do you attack with two swords from horseback? i mean, assuming your enemy is not your own horse, since that's the only thing you can comfortably hit with both hands at the same time. 20171114 14:30:13< wesnoth-discord-> Good point 20171114 14:30:38< wesnoth-discord-> Another idea is that the animation shows the right sword attacking followed by the left sword. 20171114 14:35:53< zookeeper> should rather be two separate animations that alternate randomly. it's awkward if one animation depicts multiple separate swings. 20171114 14:36:50< wesnoth-discord-> > i mean, assuming your enemy is not your own horse, since that's the only thing you can comfortably hit with both hands at the same time. 20171114 14:37:08< wesnoth-discord-> I almost spilled my milk when reading that 😂 20171114 14:43:58< DeFender> claims to be realistic about weapons usage enemey is own horse 20171114 14:44:54< wesnoth-discord-> The enemy would not be his own horse, obviously. 20171114 14:45:12< DeFender> yes, that's the source of the humor 20171114 16:49:35< wesnoth-discord-> shit 20171114 16:49:42< wesnoth-discord-> somehow my message got over 2000 characters 20171114 16:50:09< wesnoth-discord-> @ ex nihilo Well, elf is a defensive faction, in many matchups the best you can do is play the camping game, so its not a particularly liked faction in general. Defending with woses against loyalist is still usually hard, you should usually try banking a bit if you dont see an imminent attack, if your opp is going to attack on one side well its good to have most if not all of your woses there, if on both sides its more tricky, but 20171114 16:50:10< wesnoth-discord-> splitting woses as long as you have many of them and you have banked for a long time shouldnt be that hard. If your plan is to defend anyway banking is a good choice as that will inevitably give you some, sometimes significant gold advantage. If its a long game and your opp decided to send lieutenant to support the attack, well, better you have banked during that time and have some gold advantage, at any rate if you have more woses than 20171114 16:50:10< wesnoth-discord-> mages, you should still be able to win, you need to do your best to not let all his mages attack you at once so you wont lose many woses in the attack, if you have a lot of woses you probably still would be able to win the trade against loyalist. You can add a single mage if you feel confident, also, its not like mass fighters if you defend well cant have a chance against loyalist either and i have seen it somewhat working, fighters might 20171114 16:50:11< wesnoth-discord-> be a safe option early, though if you are playing against a more campy loyalist player who wont rush to attack woses are just better, but even early you need some woses against spears. In this matchup, its never very simple but generally you should defend. 20171114 16:50:21< wesnoth-discord-> first part lol, spontanenous wall of text 20171114 16:51:16< wesnoth-discord-> But really most weaker players probably wont go only mages or something vs woses right, i have played against one, not so bad player once and he still had a lot of spears against my woses, though he later started making more mages. Late game I could attack him, woses have an easy time breaking through spear defense, i got his villages and won the trade, my army wasnt full woses, though they were the main unit, i also had archers and 20171114 16:51:16< wesnoth-discord-> some fighters. Btw if you don't know that, generally its always good to start the game with recruiting 2 scouts as elf and rest fighters is ok. Works in any matchup pretty much. Its always hard against lieutenant, loyalist damage dealing potential is already insane, so if h e has lieutenant if you really wanted to attack him late it probably would be significantly harder but if he comes at you to support the attack, its possible if 20171114 16:51:17< wesnoth-discord-> loyalist is camping and banking hard but probably you wont see that right, i mean campin is not very meta, just start getting woses after you recruited fighters for first recruit 20171114 16:53:15< wesnoth-discord-> If you cant defend both sides and he is pushing on both just give up one, at worst you will push him later with woses or something, during night i doubt loyalist can really attack your woses because his mages get crusehd and your woses dont get burned 20171114 16:55:30< wesnoth-discord-> 2000 characters is nothing... 20171114 16:59:22< wesnoth-discord-> The funniest thing i have seen in wesnoth so far are scythemaster's dual scythes 20171114 17:02:10< Polsaker> I imagine the guy madly spinning 20171114 17:04:48< wesnoth-discord-> XD he does 20171114 17:05:50< wesnoth-discord-> dual scythes is so silly, it almost sounds like a joke, maybe Dugi did intentionally made the unit as a joke, that would make sense. How you can even hold a scythe in one hand yet alone use it effectivelly is beyond me 20171114 17:07:25< wesnoth-discord-> even if it is the weight of some heavier spears, probably still heavier, you would have to hold it vertically, at least that is what is shown on the unit's sprite 20171114 17:08:03< wesnoth-discord-> I think that the trick with dual scythes is that the enemy dies laughing (or of sheer edg, if you're into those terms) when they get near. 20171114 17:08:24< wesnoth-discord-> XD intimidation tactics 20171114 17:09:15< wesnoth-discord-> well probably its not very intimidating, if i saw somebody wield dual scythes at first i would be wondering how he can even do that 20171114 17:09:52< wesnoth-discord-> though that would imply superhuman capabilities so maybe 20171114 17:11:41< wesnoth-discord-> I have an idea for a unit 20171114 17:11:50< wesnoth-discord-> somebody should make a unit wielding dual chairs 20171114 17:51:22-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-80C6-75AE-87A9-11E7.dyn6.twc.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20171114 17:51:35-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 17:51:39-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-71-68-228-59.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 18:21:15-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20171114 18:22:46< wesnoth-discord-> Someone should take the Cyclops sprite 20171114 18:22:55< wesnoth-discord-> And make him use a chair as a weapon 20171114 18:23:09< wesnoth-discord-> Call him a waiter cyclops 20171114 18:23:27< wesnoth-discord-> “Your seat, sir.” Thunk 20171114 18:23:58< wesnoth-discord-> I'm stuck in NaNoWriMo, I guess I'll try to pixel Dual Chair Boy in the weekend or something. 20171114 18:33:15< wesnoth-discord-> @adramolokh I wanted to do nanowrimo but I took one look at the goal and nope'd out 20171114 18:33:36< wesnoth-discord-> Good luck! 20171114 18:33:39< wesnoth-discord-> Thanks! 20171114 18:33:53< wesnoth-discord-> I'm about 800 words behind, that sucks. 20171114 18:39:55< wesnoth-discord-> That's not too bad though, less than a day 20171114 18:40:02< wesnoth-discord-> Unless you mean 8k 20171114 19:25:23-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 19:49:56-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:ce3:2771:1cd8:fe37] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 20:02:32-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171114 20:11:57< wesnoth-discord-> @EoZ hey man, just woke up to see your message, thanks I did not know that it is okay to recruit two scouts in the beginning as elf. Actually until a couple days ago I was recruiting one scout, mostly for scout*ing and vision purposes after getting vill to make him cheaper, sometimes I took it on terrain to hold a hex or something. However, and I've still been playing exclusively Freelands because I am such a noob and want to 20171114 20:11:57< wesnoth-discord-> focus on learning few things first before attempting more maps and factions, I've been also experimenting with scoutless opening. What I mean by this is, one archer, a few fighters, and tons of tons of woses. I find this opening allows me to get 4 woses by the time second day hits, so I can have 3 woses on one side and 1 on the other side, or an even split for example. It really works well vs loyalist players on that map - scout opening 20171114 20:11:58< wesnoth-discord-> just does not have the same muscle. On a bigger map with a bigger backfield, I could see more scouts being quite strong, obviously. 20171114 20:11:58< wesnoth-discord-> With mass fighters I have always been demolished by cavs spears and mages. I have no idea how it could defend even somewhat well vs loyalist. I've been mostly using fighters as a "dirty bulking" option to just get more units quicker for defending when day comes. They can be useful for holding terrain, ranging cavs, sacrificial units, cleaning up with 4 strikes, etc. I have also been banking, of course, in my opinion banking 20171114 20:11:59< wesnoth-discord-> is actually very cool and deep way to play the game, kind of like a game of chicken, such psychology much wose About attacking: in such a kind of matchup, I would like to confirm that I should attack at day, right? Woses make 6-2 against cavs at night, it's not really enough to kill anything. But maybe attacking at dawn is good too? I'm not sure. And should I try to attack at morning or afternoon exactly, as elf? I was thinking about 20171114 20:11:59< wesnoth-discord-> what I would try vs my own kind of 4 woses opening yesterday, and I tested out that it is possible, if you make the absolute greediest vill grabbing pattern, to recruit 2 mages, 4 cavs, 2 spears, 1 fencer (one of those spears is used to hold the other side) and attack with 8 units. In your opinion would that be enough for making strong pressure on second day as loyalist vs elf with 3 woses (on that side), 2 archers, and 2 or 3 fighters? Or 20171114 20:12:00< wesnoth-discord-> would it actually be better to bank my money instead as loyalist and not even try to make timing push? 20171114 20:14:19< wesnoth-discord-> I guess one source of confusion for me is how the matchup can escalate to very high unit count on the battlefield but still both sides have options. With the woses I feel like often my job is easier, but I think that might be because defending is a bit easier than attacking (for me at least). Do rebels want such a kind of lategame more, or do loyalists want it more? With cavs and mages I feel like I'm often under some kind of 20171114 20:14:19< wesnoth-discord-> pressure to break the defending player. 20171114 20:15:43< wesnoth-discord-> Another question I have would be about elves vs orcs: what to do vs almost purely grunt rush on first night? I tried recruiting mostly fighters (ok I had two woses and one archer, is that too much?), but fighters die so easily on vills to all those grunts and the retal is not so significant 20171114 20:16:23< wesnoth-discord-> and then he grabs the vill and I already lost the game because I have no way to evict an orc from my village with mass fighters. They even lose vs grunts at day, what the heck is up with that? 20171114 20:16:57< wesnoth-discord-> I tried hitting them with leader sometimes but it's risky because you can get leader hurt in retal, and also leader is just 1 unit, and there were so many grunts 20171114 20:19:10< wesnoth-discord-> I typically get a single wose on turn two (have seen it done, think it's pretty much standard) before I can even see what the opponent randomed, and without a scout, I will have two woses before seeing him. If orc just comes barreling at me, on the side with 3 vills (not 4 and the exposed one with shrooms), I am basically struggling already 20171114 20:21:31< wesnoth-discord-> Also, on the occasion that I did manage to hold vs first night pressure from orc, I found I could not really attack with those wimpy elvish fighters even at day! Their tiny shortbows do such puny damage to grunts and trolls, and I am scared to even use the sword because they have such low hps that they could get owned so easily. In that situation, should I try to have woses for attacking orcs during the day? Mages? Archers? 20171114 20:22:47< wesnoth-discord-> Please help, my elves are wimpy and anemic and gutless cowards who quaver at the prospect of close combat. 20171114 20:22:51< wesnoth-discord-> SOS 20171114 20:48:11-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-139-219-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 20:48:29-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-139-219-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 20:57:01-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20171114 20:58:58-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:ce3:2771:1cd8:fe37] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171114 21:19:52-!- vslavik [~vslavik@95.82.135.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20171114 21:40:46-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20171114 21:40:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 21:58:16-!- Kranix [~magnus@xd520f683.cust.hiper.dk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20171114 22:00:43-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 22:12:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20171114 23:25:55-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20171114 23:37:36< wesnoth-discord-> In theory, wose are an effective counter to trolls 20171114 23:38:00< wesnoth-discord-> Got to protect them from archers though. 20171114 23:39:22< wesnoth-discord-> Mages are multipurpose glass cannons great for day pushes 20171114 23:41:27< wesnoth-discord-> You can apply damage effectively to any northerner unit except archers. 20171114 23:41:53< wesnoth-discord-> yeah, and during daytime they don't do much retal to a wose to threaten it 20171114 23:42:13< wesnoth-discord-> They don't do much retal anyway 20171114 23:42:19< wesnoth-discord-> should i have woses or mages for attacking though? 20171114 23:42:28< wesnoth-discord-> Woses are slow 20171114 23:42:30< wesnoth-discord-> i find wose is somewhat unreliable when it comes to hitting 20171114 23:42:43< wesnoth-discord-> but mage can get 2/3 or 1/3 and die even during day 20171114 23:42:49< wesnoth-discord-> and you cant leave it on the front 20171114 23:42:53< wesnoth-discord-> you must screen it with something 20171114 23:43:03< wesnoth-discord-> and if you screen it with a fighter, he can get punched by a troll 20171114 23:43:42< wesnoth-discord-> also, its quite hard to build up significant numbers of these expensive 20g units when i am losing fighters at night to begin with 20171114 23:44:07< wesnoth-discord-> Woses are unreliable but if you can get them against trolls in the open, you're dishing ToD adjusted 13-2 vs. 4.2-2 20171114 23:44:09< wesnoth-discord-> i am talking about the Freelands btw 20171114 23:44:38< wesnoth-discord-> That's a huge advantage in firepower, a single troll can't even threaten a wose 20171114 23:44:41< wesnoth-discord-> true 20171114 23:44:50< wesnoth-discord-> and it is not unreliable in a bad way 20171114 23:44:55< wesnoth-discord-> it can sometimes give me 2/2 20171114 23:44:59< wesnoth-discord-> and just destroy something 20171114 23:45:08< wesnoth-discord-> *not always 20171114 23:45:44< wesnoth-discord-> so, at night, pump fighters on the terrain while trying to get wose numbers up? 20171114 23:45:49< wesnoth-discord-> no archers? 20171114 23:45:52< wesnoth-discord-> For screening, you have to remember to use your utility. Fighters are frail but when combined with shamans they have more effective resists and hp 20171114 23:46:14< wesnoth-discord-> okay, so when i am attacking i must get a shaman 20171114 23:46:17< wesnoth-discord-> Play the terrain game 20171114 23:46:38< wesnoth-discord-> the thing with shamans, i find, is they're 15g for basically a unit that can't do damage and takes a hex 20171114 23:46:49< wesnoth-discord-> it's hard for me to find a place for them in my games 20171114 23:47:09< wesnoth-discord-> because elves have kind of low damage per hex except for woses/mages which you wont want to slow units for hitting with anyway 20171114 23:47:21< wesnoth-discord-> and the 4hp healing? units die so quickly anyway 20171114 23:47:27< wesnoth-discord-> i use them sometimes vs clashers 20171114 23:47:29< wesnoth-discord-> and it works there 20171114 23:47:47< wesnoth-discord-> preventing retreat, gets me an extra unit sometimes 20171114 23:48:25< wesnoth-discord-> but imo, if i am preventing a retreat or my opponent is retreating in the first place, i am not in real danger, most of the timme 20171114 23:48:28< wesnoth-discord-> *time 20171114 23:49:03< wesnoth-discord-> so i might as well buy another elvish fighter or archer for 2g more, unless i already have tons (like for drakes) to ensure that i come ahead in the engagement to begin with 20171114 23:49:19< wesnoth-discord-> am i doing it wrong? --- Log closed Wed Nov 15 00:00:01 2017