--- Log opened Thu Dec 14 00:00:00 2017
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20171214 00:13:16< irker384> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master 002b1a3c871f / / (13 files in 6 dirs): MP Staging/Join Game: unified player list handling and added player icons https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/002b1a3c871ff8f782d1a1449fc2b4ee9b7f6b29
20171214 00:15:28< irker384> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master ab2cfa0ac21d / data/gui/macros/player_list_panel.cfg: Fixup 002b1a3c871f (bad indent) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ab2cfa0ac21d1e035dc90efec7f431969f4a6c54
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20171214 03:50:23< irker642> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Charles Dang ab2cfa0ac2 Fixup 002b1a3c871f (bad indent) AppVeyor: All builds passed
20171214 03:52:18< irker642> wesnoth: sigurdfdragon wesnoth:master 2e27f05f80de / data/campaigns/Descent_Into_Darkness/utils/macros.cfg: DiD: Fixup MANOR_DOORS macro https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2e27f05f80dedaa712bc75d92e3c315e474f4095
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20171214 08:29:02< irker610> wesnoth/wesnoth:master sigurdfdragon 2e27f05f80 DiD: Fixup MANOR_DOORS macro AppVeyor: All builds passed
20171214 09:16:57< Soliton> making wesnothd send redundant data because it makes the client code slightly easier is not a good start...
20171214 09:18:16< vultraz> oh for christ's sake
20171214 09:18:42< vultraz> I said it makes maintaining the code easier 
20171214 09:18:52< Soliton> same thing.
20171214 09:19:27< vultraz> such as not having to remember to update the client-created user data object if I ever change the data on the server side
20171214 09:19:33< Soliton> there's been put a lot of effort into making wesnothd handle as many games/players as possible. sending redundant data does not help that.
20171214 09:19:54< vultraz> this is sent to *one person* on game creation
20171214 09:20:42< Soliton> so how much does that gain on the client side?
20171214 09:21:06< Soliton> adding the host once on game start to the userlist doesn't sound particularly cumbersome.
20171214 09:21:21< vultraz> and if you have a problem, why don't you actually ping me? I've asked you before to stop the goddamn passive-aggressiveness and it seems you never got the message! 
20171214 09:22:35< Soliton> i can try to highlight you more, sure.
20171214 09:22:57< Soliton> i'm happy to hear other people's opinions as well though.
20171214 09:23:29< vultraz> or just leave a comment on the commit and say you don't think that change is a good one! or something! Don't just leave veiled criticism that I might never read!
20171214 09:24:32< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, as the lead programmer you should be reading IRC logs.
20171214 09:29:13< Soliton> vultraz: so a related question to you then: what does "delegating
20171214 09:29:16< Soliton> more handling to the server"
20171214 09:29:23< Soliton> mean exactly?
20171214 09:29:42< Soliton> because that sounds similarly like a bad idea.
20171214 09:30:37< vultraz> I mean examining the data the server handles pre-game-creation to see if there's client-side redundancy that can be eliminated.
20171214 09:32:51< Soliton> ok, so let me state again that the server is optimized to handle as many games/players as possible. anything that violates that must have a very good reason and even if cleaner code on the client side is certainly a nice thing it does not trump that.
20171214 09:33:33< Soliton> and i'm still questioning how much cleaner the code becomes with your recent change.
20171214 09:34:10< vultraz> for the record, the only additional instance where it sends data is when the game is created.
20171214 09:34:24< vultraz> it was already sending user list data to all users
20171214 09:34:30< vultraz> the host was just ignoring it in favor of its own list
20171214 09:34:53< Soliton> for the record, i'm aware.
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20171214 09:48:19< Soliton> vultraz: can i get you to verify how much messier the client code gets if the redundant message is not sent?
20171214 09:51:02< vultraz> The simplest solution would be to just add an add_host_to_list function that takes a name and adds a row. I hadn't really thought of that. Was considering more complicated options. But I'd still prefer if the list was always handled by the server.
20171214 09:52:32< vultraz> Now perhaps *you* can tell me when you became the keeper of the server code since from the logs, it doesn't show you ever maintaining it.
20171214 09:53:55< vultraz> Nor do I remember you ever benchmarking it
20171214 09:54:27< Soliton> so you're saying criticism can only come from someone that was maintaining the server code?
20171214 09:55:56< vultraz> No. I'm asking how you're speaking from a position of authority when I've never seen you involved in that area.
20171214 09:58:41< irker610> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner d9c7a01ab5 add an appdata file for appstream softwa AppVeyor: All builds passed
20171214 09:58:59< Soliton> i'm not aware that i am particularly doing that but if you see it that way that's fine with me. you're welcome to look more closely into the logs.
20171214 10:00:03< vultraz> I see no "soliton" in the list of authors for the server/ folder
20171214 10:00:06< Soliton> i'd like to repeat that i don't see how it matters though. and very much hope that it does not. not in this case nor in any other case where some random guy criticises our code.
20171214 10:02:16< JyrkiVesterinen> It is a valid point, though, if someone says "You should do <something that requires significant effort>!".
20171214 10:02:44< vultraz> Except you're saying the server has been carefully benchmarked and any change will ruin some carefully calibrated balance.
20171214 10:02:46< Soliton> sure, so what part requires significant effort?
20171214 10:03:38< vultraz> I suppose no part
20171214 10:03:52< JyrkiVesterinen> Soliton: I wasn't saying that Vultraz is on the right in this case. Indeed, reverting that commit would be trivial.
20171214 10:04:05< Soliton> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothdDesign
20171214 10:04:18< JyrkiVesterinen> I was addressing the " nor in any other case where some random guy criticises our code" part.
20171214 10:04:23< vultraz> "This page is not updated since March 2008, I have questions about it's accuracy."
20171214 10:04:24< Soliton> if you want to read about the work that went into wesnothd from Dave.
20171214 10:04:38< vultraz> You expect us to follow a 10 year old design doc
20171214 10:05:03< Soliton> no. but you can read it if you want to know about the work that went into wesnothd.
20171214 10:05:30< Soliton> presumably not much has changed from there but there'll surely be things outdated in there.
20171214 10:06:02< vultraz> fair enough
20171214 10:06:10< Soliton> specifically the network layer part is probably different now.
20171214 10:06:32< vultraz> yes, we use boost::asio now
20171214 10:07:15< vultraz> Though I'd also note that I'm 200% sure dave could rerwite the entire thing 10x more efficiently today if he wanted
20171214 10:07:20< vultraz> rewrite*
20171214 10:07:40< Soliton> would you like to make a bet? :-P
20171214 10:07:43< JyrkiVesterinen> Why would that be possible, exactly?
20171214 10:08:25< Soliton> that's the vultraz mentality that anything that old must be garbage.
20171214 10:09:12< Soliton> btw, if you want to see my commits you have to look for soliton in the mail address nowadays.
20171214 10:09:46< vultraz> because he's a much more experience coder now, and also because he's already created new a server for his new Argentum Age game?
20171214 10:09:59< Soliton> well, please ask him.
20171214 10:10:58< Soliton> maybe don't tell him that you think his old design is that bad.
20171214 10:11:10< JyrkiVesterinen> Still, increasing the efficiency tenfold would be a very difficult goal in a codebase that's already optimized.
20171214 10:11:18< vultraz> granted, hes utilizing a server-centric model where the server runs the game instance and dispatches to clients, which I hear is more efficient overall. and he has an engine designed to work with that.
20171214 10:11:47< vultraz> so it would likely be hard to make wesnothd 10x better without also rewriting much of the client handling
20171214 10:12:13< Soliton> yes, that is a very different model. and presumably just handles a single game.
20171214 10:12:18< JyrkiVesterinen> I was able to about triple the efficiency of Wesnoth client's rendering code... and that was only possible because the code had low-hanging fruits everywhere.
20171214 10:12:44< vultraz> it's a multiplayer game
20171214 10:12:56< vultraz> so no, not just one
20171214 10:13:34< Soliton> i don't see how that follows.
20171214 10:14:43< vultraz> why would you write a multiplayer game that could only handle 1 game at a time
20171214 10:14:46< Soliton> many games have servers that handle just a single game and then maybe some match making/listing server for people to find games etc.
20171214 10:14:51< vultraz> with a server that could*
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20171214 12:16:06< irker610> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner d767c8f2a2 add an appdata file for appstream softwa AppVeyor: All builds passed
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20171214 13:39:20< Soliton> JyrkiVesterinen: btw, to clarify my earlier statement about criticizing the codebase. what i was trying to say was that the arguments should be considered not who says them.
20171214 13:43:03< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, some open source projects suffer from "new developers" and sometimes even end users who suggest huge changes but are not willing to make them themselves. I was referencing that.
20171214 13:43:54< Soliton> right, i certainly agree with that. a good response there is "patches welcome". :-)
20171214 13:45:42< Soliton> i'm happy to make the changes necessary to avoid the server having to send redundant data if that's what it takes.
20171214 13:46:14< vn971> > suggest huge changes but are not willing to make them themselves -- I do that sometimes.(  Hopefully raise some proper bugs and make contributions otherwise, too.
20171214 13:48:11< JyrkiVesterinen> Well, that's cool as long as you're not constantly talking about it, saying "it should be easy!" etc.
20171214 13:48:13< vn971> Quoting out of context though, nvm.) Just thought it sometimes partly applies to me, too.
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20171214 18:22:17< kallaballa> Hi! I'm working on the surrender feature but i have my problems figuring out how to demote a player to an observer. i did figure out that i need to call game::remove_user but couldn't find the right command to do so... is there already a command that i can send to the server that will only demote the player to an observer without kicking or banning?
20171214 18:26:36< Soliton> there's the control command to change the controller of a side. not exactly what you want though.
20171214 18:27:07< kallaballa> that's where i found out about remove_user... but the code is rather complicated
20171214 18:28:00< Soliton> well, so the server already receives the surrender command, no?
20171214 18:28:08< Soliton> how does that work exactly currently?
20171214 18:29:14< kallaballa> "For Quit, the prompt should have an option to surrender while quitting (like you have here). This should have no effect on the game except to record the side as surrendered in the replay. Either way, the player quits, and the host then gets to decide what to do with the side as normal."
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20171214 18:29:41< kallaballa> from: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/2231/#issuecomment-350589292
20171214 18:30:28< Soliton> yes, i know that part. i'm wondering about the current implementation so i can figure out what to suggest.
20171214 18:30:50< Soliton> the current implementation in your PR.
20171214 18:31:06< kallaballa> that's how it is implemented. A surrender command is sent and it is recorded in the replays
20171214 18:31:34< kallaballa> now i'm adding point 2
20171214 18:33:25< Soliton> in what way does it not work like point 2 right now?
20171214 18:34:01< kallaballa> the plain surrender option should sent the command, record the surrender and demote the player to observer
20171214 18:34:07< kallaballa> the demote part is missing
20171214 18:34:25< Soliton> oh, i would have thought that's point 3, ok.
20171214 18:34:41< kallaballa> oh sorry you are right
20171214 18:35:58< Soliton> so either we send another command to change control of the side or we use the [command][surrender] to do that in one go.
20171214 18:36:36< Soliton> i suggest the latter.
20171214 18:36:42< kallaballa> i thought it should be a separate command. i was just wondering if there might already exist one doing the job or if i have to implemented it
20171214 18:37:13< kallaballa> you mean having an option in the config that states if the user wants to be demoted?
20171214 18:37:56< Soliton> he always loses control of the side, no?
20171214 18:38:16< Soliton> whether he immediatly quits afterwards or not.
20171214 18:38:38< kallaballa> yes.. but in the quit case it is handled through the usual quit routine
20171214 18:39:20< Soliton> sure, but it wouldn't hurt to change control in that case via the surrender command as well. no need for more options.
20171214 18:40:21< kallaballa> hmm. ok
20171214 18:41:02< Soliton> you could just call change_controller() to give the side to the host at the same place you send the server message about surrender.
20171214 18:41:31< Soliton> that's what i would suggest anyway.
20171214 18:46:25< kallaballa> thx!
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20171214 19:29:23< irker437> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 8aabad972a0e / src/gui/core/canvas.cpp: Document grow_direction https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8aabad972a0e8f311610266a66bfd93fe6b584b8
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20171214 20:05:17< kallaballa> i mostly got it... but how to determine if a user (aka. socket_ptr) is in linger_mode?
20171214 20:05:47< kallaballa> nvm. found it
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20171214 20:08:27< irker437> wesnoth: josteph wesnoth:master d7afadc94bb7 / data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/utils/abilities.cfg: HttT: Fix OOS when redoing a recall and Li'sar is allied https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d7afadc94bb749053ca45efd6a3c141c45e71e2a
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20171214 21:24:15< galegosimpatico> I don't know the comms of Wesnoth. I read wiki/WesnothdDesign and I guess it is custom application protocol on TCP. I think Argentum Age is custom application protocol on custom HTTP implementation on boost::asio TCP. I don't know if it is optimal regarding that stack. For sure is enhanceable changing the stack and protocols. It's doing its thing for now and I guess doing the thing is the only mission
20171214 21:24:17< galegosimpatico> that code has now.
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20171214 22:43:24< irker437> wesnoth/wesnoth:master josteph d7afadc94b HttT: Fix OOS when redoing a recall and  AppVeyor: vs2017/Release Failed
20171214 22:43:25< irker437> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-632
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20171214 23:58:57< irker437> wesnoth/wesnoth:master josteph d7afadc94b HttT: Fix OOS when redoing a recall and  AppVeyor: 1/6 builds failed
20171214 23:58:58< irker437> Details vs2017/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-632
--- Log closed Fri Dec 15 00:00:02 2017