--- Log opened Thu Jan 04 00:00:28 2018
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20180104 01:43:24< irker404> wesnoth/wesnoth:master sigurdfdragon a9e035ab25 Update changelogs AppVeyor: vs2013/Release Failed
20180104 01:43:24< irker404> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-1024
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20180104 01:45:31< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#16078 (master - a9e035a : sigurdfdragon): The build was broken.
20180104 01:45:31< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/324838272
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20180104 02:14:47< irker404> wesnoth/wesnoth:master sigurdfdragon a9e035ab25 Update changelogs AppVeyor: 1/6 builds failed
20180104 02:14:48< irker404> Details vs2013/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth/build/Wesnoth-VS2013-master-1024
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20180104 05:44:20< irker195> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Gregory A Lundberg 9aa28da4af Send handshake in network byte order AppVeyor: All builds passed
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20180104 11:49:04< irker627> wesnoth/wesnoth:master sigurdfdragon a9e035ab25 Update changelogs AppVeyor: All builds passed
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20180104 17:39:55< irker687> wesnoth: Gregory A Lundberg wesnoth:master 44ed26dd009c / src/gui/dialogs/addon/manager.cpp: Fix crash to desktop on no addons https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/44ed26dd009ce9af1b796e449efffaabca6397b6
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20180104 19:50:18< fabi> hi vultraz, new screenshot, this time of the game screen https://imagebin.ca/v/3n4SM3QT8Plg
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20180104 20:11:07< vultraz> hmmmmm
20180104 20:11:09< vultraz> not bad
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20180104 20:20:22< fabi> vultraz: The idea is to ban gui elements to the corners, like most modern strategy games do.
20180104 20:22:27< vultraz> that could work
20180104 20:22:39< vultraz> I hope you're not using GUI1
20180104 20:24:42< fabi> I am using "LUIGI", short for "Lovely User Interface for Game Inventors"
20180104 20:33:46< vultraz> I see
20180104 20:33:55< vultraz> so, no chance of ever seeing this in mainline :P
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20180104 20:53:18< fabi> vultraz: Well, that depends on how "mainline" is defined. In the new golden age of multiple wesnoth engines, is it the one used by the most players?
20180104 20:54:38< vultraz> ...what?
20180104 20:54:46< vultraz> since when did we have multiple wesnoth engines
20180104 20:55:06< fabi> what do think all the screenshots I showed you are from? 
20180104 20:55:30< vultraz> i assumed something you intended to eventually have merged with the main game
20180104 20:55:37< fabi> no
20180104 20:55:45< fabi> it is all shiny and new
20180104 20:55:46< vultraz> then it's useless to us
20180104 20:55:51< fabi> oh yes
20180104 20:57:00< vultraz> so you're putting work into a fork of the game, then come showing it off despite no intention of ever contributing back to the base game
20180104 20:57:02< vultraz> whatever
20180104 20:57:08< vultraz> I can't tell you what to do
20180104 20:57:47< vultraz> your design will probably serve as later inspiration for me anyway :P
20180104 20:58:48< vultraz> but really, what is it you want from me
20180104 21:00:52< fabi> Well, I remember you being the most vocal advocate for switching to an easier to maintain engine. Including a better solution than gui2.
20180104 21:01:45< fabi> And I thought you might have some interrest in gui design. Since I saw you working on it.
20180104 21:01:59< fabi> Anyway, what changed your mind?
20180104 21:02:52< fabi> My goal is to found a small project that can be maintained and developed by only a handfull of developers.
20180104 21:10:10< vultraz> .......................................
20180104 21:10:33< vultraz> the main game IS maintained and developed by a handful of developers right now
20180104 21:11:03< fabi> sadly
20180104 21:11:13< fabi> and are you enough?
20180104 21:11:41< fabi> is there a deloper with expertise for every part of the engine?
20180104 21:11:45< vultraz> no.
20180104 21:11:52< fabi> right
20180104 21:11:53< vultraz> well, not on their own
20180104 21:11:58< vultraz> collectively, we do
20180104 21:12:01< fabi> no
20180104 21:13:02< vultraz> I see where you're going with this, but sadly unless you intend to replicate our efforts on the app store and (nearly) Steam....
20180104 21:13:30< fabi> I do
20180104 21:13:32< fabi> sure I do
20180104 21:13:52< vultraz> We hold the trademark to the name.
20180104 21:14:38< fabi> Every other Wesnoth port so far was called Wesnoth. Dave's company holds the name. I am sure he won't deny it to another port.
20180104 21:14:59< vultraz> You mean the mobile ports?
20180104 21:15:32< fabi> yes, my engine can handle ios and android out of the box
20180104 21:15:58< vultraz> We've been moving the ports under the official umbrella
20180104 21:16:30< fabi> And?
20180104 21:17:02< vultraz> Meaning they're no longer considered (well, Android is still a bit out in the cold) unofficial 3rd party ports
20180104 21:17:06< vultraz> Your port would be
20180104 21:17:12< fabi> Anyway, xorg wasn't called xfree86 and still was a success. 
20180104 21:17:24< fabi> Renaming the thing won't hurt much.
20180104 21:17:31< DeFender1031> if fabi has this wonderful new engine that will be easier to maintain and run the existing assets, why not replace the mainline engine with the new one and have the support of the existing community instead of going against the grain?
20180104 21:17:46< vultraz> Could wesnoth use an engine revamp? Sure. Definitely. But I'd rather have someone work WITH us than against us.
20180104 21:18:05< fabi> Well, than work with me. Be my guest.
20180104 21:18:23< JyrkiVesterinen> DeFender1031: Somehow I have a feeling that replacing the engine while keeping existing content would be a way larger task than fabi is implying...
20180104 21:18:44< DeFender1031> "work with me"... uh, vultraz is in charge. YOU need to work with HIM, not the other way around.
20180104 21:18:50< vultraz> ^
20180104 21:18:53< fabi> well
20180104 21:19:17< fabi> vultraz: what shall I do?
20180104 21:19:25< fabi> You are in command
20180104 21:20:59< vultraz> How about giving us an overview of what exactly you've been doing, how the work could benefit the project, how your implementation of various aspects of the game is superior, and where you intend to focus effort going forward.
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20180104 21:22:38< fabi> 1) the engine I use comes with a particle system. Something on jetrels list for ages
20180104 21:22:48< fabi> 2) superiour scripting language
20180104 21:23:02< vultraz> particle system is good.
20180104 21:23:06< vultraz> we need that
20180104 21:23:11< vultraz> how is it implemented?
20180104 21:23:13< fabi> 3) no more need to code c++
20180104 21:23:13< vultraz> OGL?
20180104 21:23:16< fabi> yes
20180104 21:23:34< vultraz> So, you have successfully implemented accelerated rendering?
20180104 21:23:54< fabi> I don't need to. Everthing is accelerated.
20180104 21:24:19< vultraz> I'm asking if you've ditched software rendering
20180104 21:25:05< fabi> No idea how it behaves on a device that comes without hardware acceleration. Do you have a device without opengl support?
20180104 21:25:20< vultraz> That's... not what I'm asking.
20180104 21:25:24< vultraz> And no.
20180104 21:26:00< fabi> I just use the drawing routines of my backend. Which claims to accelerate everthing.
20180104 21:26:15< fabi> So I neither implemented it myself nor did I ditch anything.
20180104 21:26:30< vultraz> what backend?
20180104 21:26:38< fabi> the love2d engine
20180104 21:26:43< vultraz> uhhh....
20180104 21:26:46< vultraz> I'll be back later
20180104 21:26:51< vultraz> (need to go)
20180104 21:27:10< fabi> https://love2d.org/
20180104 21:27:44< Soliton> how well does it support WML?
20180104 21:28:00< fabi> I transcompile wml into moonscript
20180104 21:29:34< fabi> The transcompiler is not perfect and it never will be.
20180104 21:30:20< fabi> Macros are not easy to translate. But it is already good enough to compile simpler campaigns like AOI without any error.
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20180104 21:31:45< Soliton> so it's possible to play AOI with your implementation?
20180104 21:33:37< fabi> Not yet. I have worked on the server and it can already handle scenarios and most of the gameplay. The client is new and needs to be connected. I aspect a working AOI before April.
20180104 21:34:04< fabi> Minus some of the more complex of Wesnoth's features.
20180104 21:34:21< fabi> The AI is the thing that is the most work left.
20180104 21:35:53< fabi> Although, keep in mind AOI is really easy wml coding. There is not a single nested event in there...
20180104 21:37:08< fabi> s/aspect/expect
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20180104 21:37:42< irker969> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Gregory A Lundberg 44ed26dd00 Fix crash to desktop on no addons AppVeyor: All builds passed
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20180104 21:38:52< Soliton> what's the idea behind rewriting everything?
20180104 21:39:05< fabi> iceiceice talked me into it
20180104 21:39:26< fabi> and the more I work on it the more I feel he is pretty right
20180104 21:40:14< fabi> I first was very repulsiv about the idea. Having worked a lot on the c++ engine myself.
20180104 21:40:38< fabi> When he told me that all the gameplay should be coded in lua I thought he went mad.
20180104 21:40:51< fabi> But time cured me.
20180104 21:42:42< fabi> Anyway, by using existing stuff like love2d, luigi and other existing stuff the work is far away from rewriting everything.
20180104 21:47:22< fabi> Soliton: I guess the core of the idea is really what I wrote above. An easy to maintain engine that can be handled by a small developer team.
20180104 21:48:49< Soliton> any evidence that you're going to reach that goal in a better way than the current wesnoth project?
20180104 21:49:51< fabi> I there any evidence of the current wesnoth project even trying? 
20180104 21:51:18< Soliton> if you want an answer to that you'll probably have to be a bit more forthcoming with your idea. some anecdotes about talks between you and iceiceice don't really explain anything.
20180104 21:52:23< Soliton> or perhaps an explanation on what your issues are with the way things work currently.
20180104 21:53:10< fabi> Soliton: No problem. What do you want to learn about it? I am happy to go into more details.
20180104 21:55:00< Soliton> with being more forthcoming i meant that you explain the idea not that i play twenty questions to figure it out.
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20180104 21:56:29< fabi> Well, new wesnoth engine. no c++ but lua/moonscript only. Compatible to the old context to a large degree.
20180104 21:56:56< fabi> With a nice learning chain.
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20180104 21:57:23< fabi> Childs can start by manipulating scenario files and later become developers without learning a new language. 
20180104 21:57:32< fabi> Ah yes.
20180104 21:58:19< fabi> There is also that umc designers are fine with lua/moonscript only. No need to learn lua, wml, formula language and whatnot
20180104 22:00:23< Soliton> why try to be half compatible to wesnoth?
20180104 22:00:49< fabi> because not everthing you can do with macros is machine translatable.
20180104 22:01:11< Soliton> i mean instead of not being compatible at all.
20180104 22:02:01< fabi> Dave is already doing that with Wesnoth2 on anura base.
20180104 22:02:43< Soliton> so that means you can't?
20180104 22:02:56< fabi> I can but I don't see the point.
20180104 22:04:01< Soliton> you're starting fresh, why drag legacy stuff into it?
20180104 22:04:23< fabi> Because the goal is to play wesnoth including the addons.
20180104 22:04:54< fabi> I mean xorg did not break the compatibility.
20180104 22:04:57< DeFender1031> frankly, fabi, your goal seems amorphous at best
20180104 22:05:10< Soliton> you've said that won't work properly though.
20180104 22:05:33< DeFender1031> if you don't intend to be 100% compatible with current wesnoth, then what is the point?
20180104 22:06:07< fabi> Soliton: Well, all of mainline wml is clean enough for automatic translation. I bet most addons are as well.
20180104 22:06:42< DeFender1031> if what your doing can replace the current engine and will be simpler and more maintainable, then that's great. If it's something entirely new that's going to have new content created for it, that's also great. If it's a partial implementation of what exists that won't work properly, what have you accomplished?
20180104 22:07:57< fabi> I am confident that future versions of the transcompiler will work good enough to be accepted by the umc community.
20180104 22:08:35< fabi> And new features like particle system, nicer scripting language, etc will do their work to.
20180104 22:09:24< Soliton> not sure it helps you sound more convincing if you speak for the umc community.
20180104 22:10:37< Soliton> i mean it's great that you're confident but fairly unlikely anyone else will share that confidence with statements like that.
20180104 22:11:06< DeFender1031> as a (unpublished and incomplete) UMC creator, i'd say that I'd support anything that worked properly, was more maintainable, and didn't require massive changes to existing content to make work.
20180104 22:11:32< DeFender1031> but promises and an empty sack are worth a sack.
20180104 22:11:55< fabi> DeFender1031: I really spend a lot of time in making the scripting language feel former wml coders at home.
20180104 22:12:16< DeFender1031> and I can't say much for your social methods
20180104 22:12:48< fabi> The transcompiler translates line for line. So even the comments are still in place and meaningful.
20180104 22:12:50< Soliton> i suggest writing your arguments down and focus more on rational arguments instead of your feelings.
20180104 22:13:07< Soliton> there's certainly sensible stuff your saying.
20180104 22:13:15< fabi> I want to release first. 
20180104 22:13:24< DeFender1031> release what? to whom?
20180104 22:13:30< Soliton> not much of it is relatable so far though.
20180104 22:13:44< fabi> DeFender1031: Release my new engine to the world.
20180104 22:14:03< fabi> As soon as it is able to play a first scenario I will release it.
20180104 22:14:10< DeFender1031> if you want to work with the community, share what you're working on, get input from the devs here, and work together, that's fine. If you're trying to fly solo and release your own thing to pull people away from the existing community, that's a pretty asshole move.
20180104 22:15:31< fabi> Why?
20180104 22:15:43< fabi> That is exactly the spirit of the gpl and open source.
20180104 22:15:50< fabi> And from time to time neccessary.
20180104 22:16:05< fabi> Time to once again mention xfree86 vs xorg
20180104 22:16:23< DeFender1031> no, destroying existing communities for the sake of your own glory is not in the spirif of gpl and open source.
20180104 22:16:41< DeFender1031> working WITH the existing community to advance the cause is.
20180104 22:16:52< fabi> Why is a community using a new engine being destroyed?
20180104 22:17:05< fabi> you sound a bit selfish yourself now
20180104 22:17:31< fabi> xorg didn't destroy anything as well but made things better
20180104 22:17:32< DeFender1031> using a new engine is not going to destroy the community. it's your approach that's the problem
20180104 22:18:19< fabi> what exactly is wrong with it? I have asked vultraz about his opinion.
20180104 22:18:20< DeFender1031> instead of contributing your idea to the existing community, you create a separate project that will split the community
20180104 22:18:29< fabi> I tried already/
20180104 22:18:37< DeFender1031> hmm?
20180104 22:18:39< DeFender1031> tried what?
20180104 22:18:53< fabi> vultraz told me he is going to join dave with the wesnoth2 anura thing soon
20180104 22:19:11< fabi> and told me I should do my own thing
20180104 22:19:14< fabi> so I did
20180104 22:19:41< DeFender1031> I have a hard time believing that.
20180104 22:20:04< fabi> just ask him
20180104 22:20:48< DeFender1031> but again, my point is that if you're creating something that will improve upon the existing system, why are you not sharing it with the devs, working on it together WITH the existing community, rather than going your own way and releasing it separately in a way that will split the community between the two?
20180104 22:22:09< DeFender1031> If you actually succeed the way you're doing it, you'll have two engines which may, for a brief time, support the same content, but what happens when one engine adds a new feature and the other doesn't? eventually you'll have two distinct sets of content and two separate communities which are no longer really compatible.
20180104 22:22:25< DeFender1031> hence destroying the community
20180104 22:22:35< fabi> well, xfree86 just died
20180104 22:22:41< fabi> but I see your point
20180104 22:22:53< fabi> I guess both project will profit from that. 
20180104 22:23:03< fabi> Like nearly always when there is competition.
20180104 22:24:04< DeFender1031> competing engines for the same game is not a form of competition that leads anywhere productive, IMO.
20180104 22:24:13< fabi> Why?
20180104 22:24:35< fabi> We should not talk about feelings. Have you facts?
20180104 22:24:38< DeFender1031> I already explained why. you destroy the community.
20180104 22:25:24< DeFender1031> you force people to pick either on or the other, and then you end up with two separate sets of content, lore, etc.
20180104 22:25:43< fabi> and that is bad why?
20180104 22:26:47< DeFender1031> I also doubt you're going to pull many people over to your engine with the attitude you're taking.
20180104 22:26:54< DeFender1031> even if it IS superior.
20180104 22:27:22< DeFender1031> is there a reason you're unwilling to contribute what it is you're doing to the official project?
20180104 22:27:51< fabi> As I said before, I already talked to vultraz about it.
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20180104 22:28:00< fabi> And he wasn't cooperative.
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20180104 22:28:13< fabi> My code is gpl
20180104 22:28:30< fabi> So you can make with it whatever you want
20180104 22:28:38< DeFender1031> give his attitude toward this conversation for the brief period earlier when he was here i very much doubt he meant this.
20180104 22:28:52< fabi> I hope so.
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20180104 22:29:30< DeFender1031> given*
20180104 22:30:50< DeFender1031> anyway, work WITH people, be a team player, don't create something competing just for the sake of your own glory. You want to make a separate game? Fine, but don't shit on everyone whose hard work came before.
20180104 22:33:46< fabi> DeFender1031: I am part of this project for 10 years now. I have happily worked with many of the developers in a team. I am very confident that team play on my side isn't the problem.
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20180104 22:34:44< fabi> DeFender1031: Also, what I do is a lot of work. Some glory is fone.
20180104 22:34:56< DeFender1031> so then what do you think is the problem?
20180104 22:35:54< fabi> I don't see one.
20180104 22:36:40< fabi> There are forum posts where I presented my ideas.
20180104 22:36:50< fabi> There was no positive response.
20180104 22:36:52< DeFender1031> ...huh?
20180104 22:36:58< fabi> yeah sure
20180104 22:37:25< DeFender1031> if there's no problem, then why are you splitting off into your own project rather than contributing to the official one?
20180104 22:37:41< fabi> vultraz told me to do my own thing.
20180104 22:38:15< DeFender1031> your own reimplementation of wesnoth, or your own NEW project?
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20180104 22:39:53< fabi> He told me that he won't replace gui2 ever and that he does not like to drop wml ever.
20180104 22:40:07< fabi> both core concepts of my approach
20180104 22:40:30< fabi> and he told me that the old engine is dead anyway and everthing will go wesnoth2 and anura
20180104 22:40:39< fabi> and that he trusts dave more than me 
20180104 22:41:44< fabi> Judging his reponse earlier today that attitude hadn't changed.
20180104 22:42:05< fabi> Judging his reponse e‎[21:33] ‎<‎vultraz‎>‎ so, no chance of ever seeing this in mainline :Parlier today that attitude hadn't changed.
20180104 22:42:14< fabi> hmm
20180104 22:42:20< fabi> should learn to cut and paste...
20180104 22:42:32< DeFender1031> heh
20180104 22:45:51< DeFender1031> I think I see where you're coming from.
20180104 22:46:23< DeFender1031> I still think that getting something working and then offering to contribute it to the official project is the way to go.
20180104 22:46:45< DeFender1031> but I think I understand your frustration
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