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20180105 07:24:56< vn971> fabi: Couple of questions and/or remarks if you don't mind. First of all, why don't you re-use wml _parser_? Honestly, I program in different languages at my day job time, and I don't know C++, but any sany language should have so called "modules". Can you strip out WML parser to a sane & simple module with a clean API (a public method or two)?  The reason I'm asking is that you wrote macros can be a problem. If you wanna support WM
20180105 07:24:56< vn971> L at all, why not re-use preprocessor?
20180105 07:27:55< vn971> 2. I think documentation is important _before_ releasing source/binary blobs. I mean, why would I use some new engine with particle system (thing I don't care about, sorry), with pure claims like "it's more maintainable" from one person? This is basically what DeFender1031 already talked about, and I agree with his thoughts and explanations fully.
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20180105 07:35:36< vn971> From another perspective, I do think that the whole WML, including macros, should be considered legacy. It was written for addon writers before wesnoth had a real programming language support. If mainline wesnoth, or any other project, would say that writing new stuff in WML is deprecated, and people should move to use Lua or an external preprocessor/CLI, I wouldn't mind. Just my personal feelings about WML, anyway.
20180105 07:37:48< Ravana_> there is stuff that addon cannot do without WML still
20180105 07:49:07< vn971> Ravana_: yeah, I guess _main.cfg is thi simplest example. Then again, I never met anything else except _main.cfg and event definitions.
20180105 07:49:56< Ravana_> unit types, color definitions
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20180105 18:50:35< irker399> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:close-connection-on-cancel d112d147254e / src/ (addon/client.cpp addon/client.hpp gui/dialogs/addon/manager.cpp): Don't reconnect to server when the player cancels connecting to server https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d112d147254e9addf7e02d49ac67f1e2232231af
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20180105 21:21:32< fabi> vn971: The wml preprocessor expands macros. And the wmlparser gives me config objects. I need into lua translated files on the disk. I don't see an easy way to get there.
20180105 21:26:58< fabi> vn971:  Not being an artist myself the particle system is a complete miracle for me. Although Jetrel_bot asked for it since ages, so I guess it will find some use at a certain point in the future.
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20180105 21:29:46< fabi> vn971: I guess players will use what works best for them. Especially those players wanting to use high resolutions are my focus, I think there fails the current dev version.
20180105 21:30:17< vultraz> we haven't gotten high-dpi support implemented yet, no
20180105 21:30:48< fabi> vn971: Regarding umc designers, some might just like moonscript more than wml.
20180105 21:31:10< vultraz> or they could use lua...
20180105 21:31:42< fabi> indeed, my lua interface is also superior to wesnoth"s ...
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20180105 21:34:33< fabi> vn971: The documentation is not a big thing. I rebuild the wml api, so it is the same semantic with a slightly different syntax. So designers can still use the wml api reference.
20180105 21:35:06< fabi> The game itself will be much like Wesnoth, I guess here is a good Tutorial more worth than a manual, at least first.
20180105 21:35:37< vultraz> if you're gonna do a big redesign, why keep WML
20180105 21:36:06< fabi> To be compatible?
20180105 21:37:18< fabi> And to allow umc designers to start coding for Irdya with only a little bit of a learning phase.
20180105 21:37:28< vultraz> either be wholly compatible, or not compatible at all. there's no point in half measures
20180105 21:38:55< vultraz> not being compatible at all means you can improve the design
20180105 21:39:19< fabi> But I like the wml api. It is the syntax that bothers me. 
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20180105 21:39:47< vultraz> WML isgreat as a data language
20180105 21:39:51< vultraz> not a scripting language
20180105 21:40:10< vultraz> And I'd prefer the syntax of JSON for the data part anyway
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20180105 21:43:09< fabi> vultraz: I think wml is just okay as a content description language. I fail to see any greatness. The moonscript I compile it into is fine as well. And I certainly won't introduce any more language to Irdya.
20180105 21:45:09< fabi> I don't mind later api improvements. 
20180105 21:45:16< vn971> (fabi: if anything, I'm currently ill, may return to the discussion later.)
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20180105 21:46:03< fabi> vn971: Me and my girlfriend as well. :-) Some flu thing.
20180105 21:48:22< vn971> > my lua interface is also
20180105 21:48:22< vn971> is it planned to support the existing Lua API?
20180105 21:48:38< fabi> yes
20180105 21:49:03< fabi> but i guess people will not use it directly mostly
20180105 21:49:15< fabi> you can
20180105 21:49:58< fabi> but since every toplevel and action wml tag is a lua function in Irdya, you don't need to.
20180105 21:50:27< fabi> Although those functions are implemented by using the existing lua api. 
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20180105 21:51:21< fabi> Everything said for lua is also true when moonscript is used.
20180105 21:56:32< vn971> so you plan to support both WML and the newer API, which should be better. Indeed surprising. So like if wesnoth-1.13.10 will add a new method, you'll have to diverge or start supporting it too. Like, for example, wesnoth.unit_types[*].advances_to
20180105 22:00:30< fabi> Yes
20180105 22:01:20< fabi> I mean if 1.13.10 supports a new wml tag, I need to implement it as well.
20180105 22:04:04< fabi> vn971: I can show you a translated campaign if you are curious.
20180105 22:05:36< vultraz> do you intend there be two wesnoths :/
20180105 22:06:07< fabi> No, I guess it will end up like xfree86 vs xorg
20180105 22:06:20< vn971> fabi: I mean new methods, not tags. wesnoth.unit_types[]  is a Lua method, it's not related to a tag 1:1.
20180105 22:07:28< fabi> vn971: Well, in irdya everything is a lua method/procedure so this distinction is only meaningful on the Wesnoth side.
20180105 22:09:26< vn971> fabi: well OK, I take it that you plan to support all the methods, including new ones once they get written.
20180105 22:09:44< vultraz> i see
20180105 22:09:51< vultraz> well, we're still the official distribution
20180105 22:10:13< fabi> That sounds like a text for a T-Short.
20180105 22:10:22< fabi> s/Short/Shirt
20180105 22:15:31< vultraz> heh
20180105 22:17:17< vultraz> but really, we have the Wesnoth Inc. backing and war chest 
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20180105 22:18:41< fabi> Another T-Shirt. vultraz designing T-Shirt slogans is really your skill.
20180105 22:19:01< vultraz> ......
20180105 22:19:56< fabi> The GPL needs to be regarded. And I do so.
20180105 22:20:34< vultraz> what does the GPL have to do with anything
20180105 22:21:19< fabi> I guess transcompiled files still need to be gpl licensed.
20180105 22:22:41< fabi> vultraz: About the name, I will talk to Dave soon. I have met him once at the FOSDEM, pretty sure we come along fine.
20180105 22:23:03< vultraz> There's a board of directors for the company now
20180105 22:23:07< vultraz> of which I am a member
20180105 22:23:55< fabi> again a T-Shirt thing
20180105 22:25:10< vultraz> Dave is still the president, yes, but we (as in the rest of the board) do still have a say
20180105 22:28:09< fabi> And you think you can convince them to start legal actions against a non-profit GPL Wesnoth clone? Seems a bit childish to me.
20180105 22:28:58< vultraz> I am thinking no such thing.
20180105 22:30:40< fabi> Anyway, xorg is also not called xfree86
20180105 22:33:23< fabi> I want to build debian packages soon. The base one will be called wesnoth-love
20180105 22:34:48< vultraz> What if people mix it up with the regular wesnoth package
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20180105 22:35:42< fabi> Sounds good to me.
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20180105 22:36:29< irker928> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Jyrki Vesterinen 50b5fe1646 Don't reconnect to server when the playe AppVeyor: All builds passed
20180105 22:37:18< vultraz> why?
20180105 22:37:47< fabi> I like people to install it.
20180105 22:41:37< fabi> What if people confuse old shaggy Wesnoth with my new shiny version?
20180105 22:41:55< fabi> And install it instead of Irdya.
20180105 22:42:01< fabi> That is really sad.
20180105 22:43:14< Soliton> perhaps we can focus on less hypotheticals.
20180105 22:43:22< fabi> Indeed.
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 06 00:00:31 2018