--- Log opened Sat Mar 03 00:00:33 2018 20180303 00:25:15<+discordbot> of course there is, debug xD 20180303 00:25:41<+discordbot> Har har. 20180303 00:25:47<+discordbot> Didn't i tell you that i talked with one guy who said he would appreciate such puzzles? idk. Debug is a decent alternative xD 20180303 00:26:02<+discordbot> No, it is not. 20180303 00:26:51<+discordbot> Wesnoth has a graphical user interface, is there an alternative for blind people? 20180303 00:27:17<+discordbot> even though i used debug to solve the puzzle i do not think its a good argument xD 20180303 00:28:36<+discordbot> Sorry but what you are saying doesn't make any sense. 20180303 00:28:52<+discordbot> The game does not require auditory information to be played. 20180303 00:29:06<+discordbot> You're comparing apples and oranges here. 20180303 00:30:21<+discordbot> nd the puzzle requires auditory information to be played to be solved 20180303 00:30:24<+discordbot> what is your point 20180303 00:30:37<+discordbot> My point is that your little joke above doesn't make any sense. 20180303 00:30:50<+discordbot> I do believe it'd be great if the game could also be accessible for people with impaired vision, but that's not going to happen unless the concern comes from the dev team or someone has exceptionally good patches, and even then it will never be fully-inclusive for obvious reasons -- the game runs on visuals. 20180303 00:31:07<+discordbot> But like I just said, sound has never been an essential part of the gameplay. 20180303 00:31:10<+discordbot> it does because wesnoth as a game requires graphical information to be played, and the puzzle requires auditory information to be played 20180303 00:31:48<+discordbot> Therefore there's no problem with considering making the puzzle accessible for people with impaired hearing, and your joke is not welcome. 20180303 00:32:09<+discordbot> puzzles also were never an essential part of the gameplay 20180303 00:32:26<+discordbot> so remove puzzles from wesnoth? 20180303 00:32:48<+discordbot> That is not what I said and you know it. 20180303 00:33:40<+discordbot> you want to make a puzzle accessible to people without hearing but its impossible, likewise you want to make wesnoth accessible to blind people but it seems impossible at least for now 20180303 00:34:22<+discordbot> also the fact that puzzle is just a small element of the game makes my argument even more valid 20180303 00:34:59<+discordbot> Your argument is to use debug mode to skip an obstacle that is part of the scenario's design. 20180303 00:35:11<+discordbot> That is not a good argument regardless of the additional context. 20180303 00:35:33<+discordbot> By definition, if a scenario is not winnable without using debug mode, the scenario is broken. 20180303 00:36:55<+discordbot> you said that you would like wesnoth to be accessible for blind people, wesnoth is a far broader thing, puzzle is just a small part of a campaign, there are many skills or abilities required to play wesnoth you could say that eg wesnoth should be friendlier for people with impaired math skills, i think there is a disorder like that 20180303 00:37:12<+discordbot> well yeah, if you cant get over an obstacle because its impossible for you 20180303 00:37:34<+discordbot> you have to skip it, if you physically cant do something you dont do it 20180303 00:38:02<+discordbot> Sure, but ideally that shouldn't happen and there should be an alternative. 20180303 00:38:02<+discordbot> i understand it but 20180303 00:38:08<+discordbot> it is a puzzle 20180303 00:38:12<+discordbot> it is something else 20180303 00:38:14<+discordbot> That was my whole point which you've decided to ignore in favour of our strawman argument. 20180303 00:38:50<+discordbot> i think it would make it more complicated and is not really necessary, also it is kind of important in the plot 20180303 00:38:54<+discordbot> I'm not going to force the author to do things one way or another. It was just a suggestion and you decided it'd be fun to make me waste my time explaining multiple times why it's not an invalid suggestion. 20180303 00:39:45<+discordbot> See you tomorrow. 20180303 00:47:43-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 00:48:41<+discordbot> hmm I guess I could make an extra crystal to activate text 20180303 00:50:47<+discordbot> you'd get punished for having to take extra moves to get there but oh well 20180303 00:53:33<+discordbot> You could use rising text at the moment the sound is activated 20180303 01:23:32<+discordbot> maybe 20180303 01:23:36<+discordbot> 🤷 20180303 01:26:05-!- Yaiyan [~yaiyan@46.101.48.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180303 01:32:40-!- yaiyan [~yaiyan@46.101.48.31] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 01:36:40-!- aeth_ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 01:37:33-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180303 02:02:20-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6DD5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180303 03:21:38<+discordbot> did anyone else watching the LOTR movies feel that the dwarves were meant to be seen as Jewish? 20180303 03:22:17< celticminstrel> ... 20180303 03:22:51<+discordbot> In many places, it does talk of the resemblance. 20180303 03:23:29<+discordbot> Like how they were pushed out of their own homes and unable to claim their own things back in WWII. 20180303 03:24:15<+discordbot> yeah, not sure how much Tolkien and/or Peter Jackson intended that 20180303 03:24:54<+discordbot> so there is one answer for you @Crimson_Conure 20180303 03:29:05<+discordbot> that gold-based attack against smaug was pretty absurd though... after that I lost my motivation to watch the battle of five armies 20180303 03:29:33<+discordbot> Did you not finish it? 20180303 03:29:44<+discordbot> I seriously didn't finish it 20180303 03:30:11<+discordbot> I thought it was pretty good, just confusing at parts. 20180303 03:32:30<+discordbot> well, just this past month I watched a highly abridged fan edit version. So I saw some of it in the end. 20180303 03:33:13<+discordbot> A highly abridged fan edit version...sounds fun. 20180303 03:33:51<+discordbot> the fan edit was more enjoyable than the original movies for me... it got rid of a lot of pointless orc decapitations. 20180303 03:34:32<+discordbot> I do wish they had left in the dwarven dish cleaning scene though! 20180303 03:35:31< celticminstrel> Heh, pointless orc decapitations. 20180303 03:35:51< celticminstrel> I'm actually gonna watch Battle of the Five Armies tomorrow, probably. Extended edition, even. 20180303 03:36:16<+discordbot> and instead they should have cut out that scene where bard walks out of his house and people want to arrest him... a really uninteresting arc 20180303 03:37:02< celticminstrel> Was the dwarven dish cleaning scene not in the theatrical version? I can't remember. 20180303 03:37:10< celticminstrel> I definitely saw it two weeks ago though. 20180303 03:37:14< celticminstrel> It was great. 20180303 03:37:40< celticminstrel> I mean, unless there's a second dish cleaning scene. :P 20180303 03:37:55<+discordbot> Definitely one of my favorites. 20180303 03:38:38<+discordbot> I really enjoyed it. 20180303 03:38:59<+discordbot> One of the other ones I really enjoyed was SW:TLJ. 20180303 03:39:13<+discordbot> This is the fan cut I was referring to: https://tolkieneditor.wordpress.com/ 20180303 03:39:36 * celticminstrel has no interest in the fan cut. 20180303 03:44:42<+discordbot> I hated every single one of the Hobbit movies. 20180303 03:44:57< celticminstrel> Shrug! 20180303 03:45:00<+discordbot> The first one managed to make me fall asleep. I never fall asleep while watching a movie. 20180303 03:45:10<+discordbot> Even bad movies. 20180303 03:45:25<+discordbot> somehow it also feels like you never sleep 20180303 03:45:33<+discordbot> 😝 20180303 03:46:21<+discordbot> Yet you play a tolkienesque game. 20180303 03:46:43< celticminstrel> I don't see how that's related. 20180303 03:46:56<+discordbot> I said I hated the movies. (I didn't like the book either tbh.) 20180303 03:46:58< celticminstrel> Plus Wesnoth is only tokenly tolkienesque really. 20180303 03:47:24<+discordbot> I did like the LoTR books and movies, except for the second half of the last one. 20180303 03:47:46<+discordbot> But the Hobbit was a terrible execution of what was an already terrible source. 20180303 03:47:54< celticminstrel> The only think I disliked about the LoTR movies is that he left out the Scouring of the Shire. >_> 20180303 03:48:04<+discordbot> Yeah, I hate that too. 20180303 03:48:19< celticminstrel> Apparently Peter Jackson hates the Scouring of the Shire. 20180303 03:48:29<+discordbot> The second half feels like even more of a dragged out epilogue without tha part. 20180303 03:48:31<+discordbot> Who's Peter Jackson? 20180303 03:48:33< celticminstrel> Oh, right, he also left out Tom Bombadil. That was annoyting too. 20180303 03:48:36< celticminstrel> Good question! 20180303 03:48:46< celticminstrel> He's... a person! 20180303 03:48:46<+discordbot> You don't know who Peter Jackson is? 20180303 03:49:05<+discordbot> Yes. I don't know much about anyone in hollywood. 20180303 03:49:23<+discordbot> Or movies or anything of that sort. 20180303 03:49:28< celticminstrel> At least he didn't leave out the stone giants, which are perhaps the second-biggest mystery of Middle-Earth (with Tom Bombadil being the biggest). 20180303 03:49:42<+discordbot> I just watch them, not research every actor. 20180303 03:49:48< celticminstrel> He's the director. :P 20180303 03:49:50<+discordbot> Tom Bombadil isn't even part of creation I don't think. 20180303 03:50:00< celticminstrel> Maybe! He's a mystery. 20180303 03:50:08<+discordbot> Isn't he essentially a glorified OC from an earlier work of Tolkien? 20180303 03:50:09< celticminstrel> He could be "God" / Illuvatar / Eru 20180303 03:50:18< celticminstrel> He could be one of the "angels" 20180303 03:50:20<+discordbot> Nahhhh. 20180303 03:50:30< celticminstrel> He could be something that just never really showed up in the prehistory, 20180303 03:50:41<+discordbot> I read the Silmarillion and Eru doesn't sound anything like Bombadil. 20180303 03:50:47< celticminstrel> No-one knows! Likely not even Tolkien himself. 20180303 03:50:57< celticminstrel> Yeah, the second option is more likely than the first IMO. 20180303 03:51:06<+discordbot> Eru is a popular theory but IDK ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 20180303 03:51:14<+discordbot> Who's this Bombadil guy? 20180303 03:51:21< celticminstrel> A character in LoTR. 20180303 03:51:26<+discordbot> And yet you play a tolkienesque game 😛 20180303 03:51:30< celticminstrel> He doesn't appear in either of the movie adaptations. 20180303 03:51:32<+discordbot> He appears in part 1 20180303 03:51:34<+discordbot> Touche 20180303 03:51:35< celticminstrel> Yeah. 20180303 03:51:46<+discordbot> Right after the barrows 20180303 03:51:48<+discordbot> Because he's so out of place. 20180303 03:52:05< celticminstrel> Maybe that's the whole point> 20180303 03:52:08< celticminstrel> ^? 20180303 03:52:25< celticminstrel> @pydsigner Wasn't he right before the barrows? 20180303 03:52:38<+discordbot> checks 20180303 03:52:47<+discordbot> Imo, the Hobbit isn't as good. It seems like it was made just as a prequel as an extension to the LotR, instead of an actual separate series. 20180303 03:52:55<+discordbot> But I still like it. 20180303 03:53:03< celticminstrel> Uhh. 20180303 03:53:09<+discordbot> What? 20180303 03:53:10< celticminstrel> The Hobbit was released first. 20180303 03:53:14<+discordbot> What? 20180303 03:53:17<+discordbot> The book. 20180303 03:53:20<+discordbot> I'm tired. 20180303 03:53:28<+discordbot> I can't think right. 20180303 03:53:32< celticminstrel> Yeah, the book. 20180303 03:53:44< celticminstrel> It's quite possible it wasn't as good partly because it was an earlier work. 20180303 03:53:54<+discordbot> Certainly. 20180303 03:53:54<+discordbot> Okay. But I still like LotR more. It just felt that way to me. 20180303 03:54:04<+discordbot> With the movies it's obvious they tried way too hard to cash out on the franchise by dragging it out longer than necessary. 20180303 03:54:15<+discordbot> celticminstrel: you're right, just before the barrows 20180303 03:54:17<+discordbot> And conjuring up a load of bull out of thin air. 20180303 03:54:21< celticminstrel> Yeah, dragging out the Hobbit into three movies was perhaps a bit much. 20180303 03:54:26<+discordbot> And turning Legolas into a caricature of himself. 20180303 03:54:34<+discordbot> The hobbit is one book, right? 20180303 03:54:37<+discordbot> Yes 20180303 03:54:38<+discordbot> Yes. 20180303 03:54:40<+discordbot> And it's short 20180303 03:54:51< celticminstrel> A lot of that "conjuring up" was pulled not from thin air but from the Lord of the Rings appendices. 20180303 03:55:09< celticminstrel> Not all though. 20180303 03:55:23< celticminstrel> I don't recall Legolas playing any role in the book? 20180303 03:55:24<+discordbot> It still seemed greatly unnecessary and mostly filler. 20180303 03:55:29<+discordbot> No, he didn't. 20180303 03:55:33<+discordbot> He's in the movies, though. 20180303 03:55:35< celticminstrel> Nor any other elf? 20180303 03:55:42<+discordbot> No the elves show 20180303 03:55:51<+discordbot> Looking for the whatsit stone 20180303 03:55:54< celticminstrel> Well, they capture them, yes. 20180303 03:55:56<+discordbot> That the dwarves have 20180303 03:55:59<+discordbot> For a chapter in the books, but Legolas definitely doens't show up. 20180303 03:56:05< celticminstrel> And perhaps they show up for the Battle of the Five Armies. 20180303 03:56:08<+discordbot> *doesn't 20180303 03:56:14<+discordbot> Two different sets of elves 20180303 03:56:19<+discordbot> I know how to spell. 20180303 03:56:25< celticminstrel> But did any elves chase the dwarves all the way to the mountain? 20180303 03:56:31<+discordbot> They made him a major character in the movies because LEGOLAS 20180303 03:56:35< celticminstrel> Yeah probably. 20180303 03:56:44<+discordbot> Sorry. I'm a grammar nazi. 20180303 03:56:48<+discordbot> celticminstrel: No. They show up after the slaying of the dragon 20180303 03:56:51< celticminstrel> Though TBH he isn't that major even in the movies, the female elf has a much larger role. 20180303 03:57:00< celticminstrel> @pydsigner Yeah that's what I thought. 20180303 03:57:02<+discordbot> Look. 20180303 03:57:09<+discordbot> In the third movie, he literally violates the laws of physics. 20180303 03:57:14< celticminstrel> XD 20180303 03:57:26<+discordbot> Yeah. That felt overrated to me. 20180303 03:57:32<+discordbot> The HISHE segment about Legolas is great 20180303 03:57:33<+discordbot> Anyone who's seen it will know which scene I'm talking about. 20180303 03:57:51< celticminstrel> I'd say "magic!" but I'm not sure Legolas can. 20180303 03:58:04< celticminstrel> HISHE? 20180303 03:58:11<+discordbot> How It Should Have Ended 20180303 03:58:18<+discordbot> Just because you're special to the story, doesn't mean you can literally disobey the most basic laws of physics. 20180303 03:58:24<+discordbot> He's not supposed to do magic, his thing is archery. 20180303 03:58:32< celticminstrel> Right. 20180303 03:58:35<+discordbot> And he doesn't have any of the elf rings. 20180303 03:58:47< celticminstrel> AFAIK the only elves with significant magic are Elrond and Galadriel. 20180303 03:58:55< celticminstrel> And I'm not even sure on Elrond. 20180303 03:59:02< celticminstrel> Possibly the other ring-bearer, too. 20180303 03:59:15< celticminstrel> Whose name escapes me, though I'm pretty sure it begins with C. 20180303 03:59:15<+discordbot> The other ring-bearer is Gandalf. 20180303 03:59:15<+discordbot> https://youtu.be/TZm_Zth0rhw?t=4m24s 20180303 03:59:25< celticminstrel> I mean the guy who gave it to Gandalf. 20180303 03:59:53<+discordbot> Sauraman? 20180303 03:59:57< celticminstrel> No. 20180303 04:00:00<+discordbot> Celibrimbor? No that's an ent 20180303 04:00:02< celticminstrel> Saruman never had a ring, ever. 20180303 04:00:07< celticminstrel> No, not him either. 20180303 04:00:14<+discordbot> Saruman only had a palintir 20180303 04:00:16<+discordbot> (I am tired, I can't think.) 20180303 04:00:42< celticminstrel> Saruman did have that, yeah. 20180303 04:00:48<+discordbot> Celebrimbor gave it to Cirdan who gave it to Gandalf. 20180303 04:00:57< celticminstrel> Who is Celebrimbor? 20180303 04:01:05< celticminstrel> Cirdan is the one I was thinking of. 20180303 04:01:08<+discordbot> I don't remember but Cirdan is the boats guy. 20180303 04:01:13< celticminstrel> Yeah, him. 20180303 04:01:30<+discordbot> Oh right 20180303 04:01:38<+discordbot> Celebrimbor is the forger of the rings 20180303 04:01:43< celticminstrel> Does his name ever even appear in LoTR (appendices included)? 20180303 04:01:47< celticminstrel> Cirdan I mean 20180303 04:02:09<+discordbot> "Cirdan the Shipwright" 20180303 04:02:18< celticminstrel> I guess that's a yes then. 20180303 04:02:19<+discordbot> Boats guy. 20180303 04:02:22< celticminstrel> Yup.. 20180303 04:03:10<+discordbot> He comes up 15 times. 20180303 04:03:18< celticminstrel> Whoa, you counted? XD 20180303 04:03:24<+discordbot> No I have the ebook 20180303 04:03:26< celticminstrel> Ah. 20180303 04:03:36< celticminstrel> I have a normal copy somewhere. 20180303 04:03:41< celticminstrel> I think it's probably in a box right now. 20180303 04:03:46<+discordbot> I do too but I haven't opened it haha 20180303 04:07:29<+discordbot> I have all the Tolkien books, i think. 20180303 04:07:33<+discordbot> *I 20180303 04:08:11< celticminstrel> That's a dangerous statement. 20180303 04:08:39< celticminstrel> It's not really clear what that would mean. 20180303 04:09:48<+discordbot> The canon ones that aren't impossible to collect. 20180303 04:09:53< celticminstrel> For example, it could be "every book written by JRR Tolkien", which would include The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion, but also some unrelated books like The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (IIRC). 20180303 04:10:31<+discordbot> The Adventures of Tom Bombadil is a thing, yes. 20180303 04:10:46<+discordbot> Really? 20180303 04:10:47<+discordbot> Hmm. 20180303 04:10:50< celticminstrel> (FTR, I don't own that one.) 20180303 04:11:01< celticminstrel> (IIRC it's a book of poems or something?) 20180303 04:11:13< celticminstrel> (And not really LoTR-related even though Bombadil appears in both.) 20180303 04:25:07-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 04:25:20-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 04:37:57<+discordbot> Wut 20180303 04:38:08<+discordbot> Gandalf was never a ring bearer 20180303 04:39:41<+discordbot> Yes he is. 20180303 04:40:17<+discordbot> He did not have the One Ring at any point but he did have one of the elf lords' rings. 20180303 04:52:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 04:52:38-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 04:55:31<+discordbot> It'd be cool to have an infinity gauntlet in LOTR that let you wear all the rings. 20180303 04:55:32< celticminstrel> Yeah, basically the ring Gandalf has is like the one Galadriel has. 20180303 04:58:52<+discordbot> You just need to enslave everyone then obtain them all and cram them all onto your fingers. XD 20180303 04:59:45<+discordbot> Case a spell that gives you like really long fingers. 20180303 04:59:58< celticminstrel> That's two per finger. 20180303 05:00:06< celticminstrel> Including thumbs. 20180303 05:00:16< celticminstrel> Mind you, that's also counting the ones destroyed by dragons. 20180303 05:00:16<+discordbot> Put them on your toes then. 20180303 05:00:23< celticminstrel> Haha, I had the same thought. 20180303 05:00:34< celticminstrel> IIRC four were destroyed by dragons. 20180303 05:00:45<+discordbot> Imagine how...uncomfortable that would be. 20180303 05:01:37<+discordbot> Wearing rings on your toes to become overpowered. 20180303 05:01:54<+discordbot> ugh 20180303 05:03:27<+discordbot> Well...you would be basically unproclaimed lord off all of Middle-Earth. 20180303 05:03:30<+discordbot> so theres that 20180303 05:07:21<+discordbot> I'm sure you could magic away the discomfort with the power 20180303 05:07:27<+discordbot> At least until you turn into Sauron 20180303 05:12:44< celticminstrel> ^ 20180303 05:13:22< celticminstrel> None of the non-elven ring-bearers ended well. 20180303 05:14:29<+discordbot> There was eleven? 20180303 05:14:39<+discordbot> I thought it was like 7 or 3. 20180303 05:15:01< celticminstrel> What? 20180303 05:15:18<+discordbot> men have more places for rings than women but women have more hiding places. - Metal Gear 20180303 05:15:33< celticminstrel> Where do you get eleven from? 20180303 05:15:43<+discordbot> Oops. 20180303 05:16:02< celticminstrel> There were twenty rings by my count. 20180303 05:16:09<+discordbot> There were different sets given to the various groups 20180303 05:16:14<+discordbot> I'm tired. I read "None of the non-elven ring-bearers ended well" as "None of the eleven ring-bearers ended well." 20180303 05:16:16<+discordbot> 9 just for the kings of men iirc 20180303 05:17:11<+discordbot> Yeah 20180303 05:17:25<+discordbot> 7 for the dwarves, 3 for the elves 20180303 05:17:41< celticminstrel> "Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, / Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, / Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, / One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne / In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. / One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, / One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them, / In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie." 20180303 05:17:45<+discordbot> The 3 for the elves were the only ones forged without Sauron's corruption 20180303 05:17:45< celticminstrel> Twenty. 20180303 05:19:15< celticminstrel> From what I understand, the rings induced a gold-madness in dwarves. Men who used them faded to wraiths. 20180303 05:19:55<+discordbot> Fun. 20180303 05:20:21< celticminstrel> The elves who bore them didn't seem to suffer any ill effects though. Not sure if that's because they were uncorrupted or what. 20180303 05:20:40<+discordbot> It's because they are glorified and overpowered. 20180303 05:20:45<+discordbot> XD 20180303 05:20:53< celticminstrel> The hobbits that bore the One Ring also faded, but to a far lesser extent than the men who bore the Nine. 20180303 05:21:23< celticminstrel> I mean, even the longest-running bearer of the One Ring was still decidedly flesh and bone, if not exactly in possession of his right mind. 20180303 05:21:46<+discordbot> Fun. 20180303 05:23:27-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.207.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20180303 05:23:40-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.207.231] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 05:23:41<+discordbot> It's because Celebrimbor figured out something fishy was up and made the 3 elf-rings in secret 20180303 05:24:16< celticminstrel> I kinda wonder where that verse really comes from in-universe. 20180303 05:24:37< celticminstrel> It honestly doesn't make any sense for it to exist in the Third Age or earlier? 20180303 05:24:58< celticminstrel> (Well, IIRC the rings were forged in the Third Age though, weren't they? Or was that the Second?) 20180303 05:25:37< celticminstrel> Anyway, the thing is, part of that verse was literally engraved onto the One Ring in Black Speech. How could anyone have known that before Sauron's first defeat? 20180303 05:25:58< celticminstrel> (By first defeat I mean Gil-Galad or whoever it was.) 20180303 05:28:30<+discordbot> Rings were forged second age 20180303 05:29:05<+discordbot> The battle where Sauron is defeated but his ring left unharmed is the end of the second age 20180303 05:29:24< celticminstrel> And Fourth Age marks the end of the high elves. 20180303 05:29:44< celticminstrel> Though I guess Thranduil and Legolas and co would still be around. 20180303 05:29:56<+discordbot> The verse would almost certainly have come from the elves or men who saw the ring before its loss in the ambush 20180303 05:30:20<+discordbot> Probably Gandalf reads it in the great library 20180303 05:30:23< celticminstrel> But my impression was that no-one other than Gandalf could actually read the ring-inscription? 20180303 05:30:31< celticminstrel> So how did it end up as part of the verse? 20180303 05:32:57<+discordbot> Nah others could have read it 20180303 05:33:30< celticminstrel> The person who recorded it seemed unable to read it though. 20180303 05:33:46<+discordbot> Why? 20180303 05:33:48< celticminstrel> Also, that was after the end of the Second age... 20180303 05:33:56< celticminstrel> I don't remember. 20180303 05:34:47<+discordbot> I don't think making a faithful rendition of the most important artifact of your age is necessarily indicative of inability to understand the engraving 20180303 05:35:20< celticminstrel> ISTR something that suggested he didn't know the meaning, but it's possible I'm imagining it. 20180303 05:35:26<+discordbot> But it's not like any of the three beings who possessed the ring after its loss would have had reason to put flame to the ring, nor understanding of the tongue 20180303 05:35:52<+discordbot> We know at least that there were elves who knew the language 20180303 05:36:54<+discordbot> Hmm interesting 20180303 05:37:22<+discordbot> Checked the book against my remembrance of the film 20180303 05:37:22< celticminstrel> Three? 20180303 05:37:56<+discordbot> Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo 20180303 05:38:17< celticminstrel> Samwise. Four. 20180303 05:38:54<+discordbot> I was counting only those before the Council 20180303 05:39:48<+discordbot> Or rather, before Gandalf discovers the true meaning of the ring 20180303 05:39:53<+discordbot> Which is yet prior 20180303 05:40:13< celticminstrel> In that case it'd be only two. 20180303 05:40:19< celticminstrel> Frodo post-dates it. 20180303 05:40:29<+discordbot> No. 20180303 05:41:03<+discordbot> Had Gandalf known of the ring's portent, it would never have passed to Frodo and lain for years as he searched for the truth 20180303 05:41:13<+discordbot> 20 years iirc 20180303 05:41:28< celticminstrel> Wasn't it just locked in a box for all that time? 20180303 05:41:49< celticminstrel> Frodo didn't really bear the ring until Gandalf came by and threw it into the fire, IIRC. 20180303 05:42:18<+discordbot> I quote myself, "beings who possessed the ring" 20180303 05:44:56<+discordbot> wait a min. 20180303 05:45:07<+discordbot> does battle for wesnoth get it's name from battle for middle earth? 20180303 05:45:13<+discordbot> No 20180303 05:46:05<+discordbot> It gets its name from the 23rd (last one, sorry if I got number wrong) scenario off HttT 20180303 05:46:39<+discordbot> 25 I think but not sure 20180303 05:47:02< celticminstrel> I was thinking of those 20 years as being in Bilbo's possession... but I guess maybe you're thinking about after Bilbo left for Rivendell? 20180303 05:48:25<+discordbot> I hate to break it to you but 20180303 05:48:42<+discordbot> does David White (mentioned in the wikipedia page) still do wesnoth 20180303 05:48:45<+discordbot> The scenario "Battle for Wesnoth" did not exist and probably wasn't even planned yet, back when Wesnoth received its name. 20180303 05:48:53<+discordbot> No, he doesn't. 20180303 05:49:07< celticminstrel> I think I've seen him comment like, once or twice in IRC. 20180303 05:49:08<+discordbot> He's been inactive since late 2009. 20180303 05:49:15< celticminstrel> But yeah, he's basically not around. 20180303 05:49:32<+discordbot> what all the other people mentioned in the wikipedia page? 20180303 05:49:53<+discordbot> He's part of the team that manages the legal company funding some aspects of the project's operation but he doesn't participate in the game's development anymore. 20180303 05:49:55<+discordbot> Oh. Okay. 20180303 05:50:08<+discordbot> celticminstrel: there's a LONG period where Bilbo has the ring in the shire, then he leaves and it passes to Frodo 20180303 05:50:13<+discordbot> So, the 23rd scenario was named after the game? 20180303 05:50:17<+discordbot> He really stopped contributing around 2008 and the 2009 contributions were kind of a failed project. 20180303 05:50:25<+discordbot> Yeah, probably. 20180303 05:50:35< celticminstrel> What'd he do in 2009? 20180303 05:50:39<+discordbot> In the film, the period between Bilbo's departure and Frodo's flight is extremely compacted; in the book, many years pass 20180303 05:50:49<+discordbot> new topic. Is there a place with wesnoth 1.0? lol sometimes I like playing alpha builds. Like Mount and Blades' alpha build called war rider 20180303 05:51:00<+discordbot> A botched attempt at replacing the default memory allocator with a custom one celticminstrel. 20180303 05:51:11< celticminstrel> Sounds supremely pointless. >_> 20180303 05:51:20<+discordbot> It caused too many problems for no concrete gains so it had to be removed. 20180303 05:51:35< celticminstrel> Like, my reaction when someone decides to write a memory allocator is usually... 20180303 05:52:07< celticminstrel> "Why are you even bothering, the default one is good enough, and if it really isn't, why aren't you using some other pre-existing better allocator that someone has already written and tested" 20180303 05:52:11<+discordbot> @greenghost Yes, on SourceForg, which is currently down. 20180303 05:52:31<+discordbot> It was based off an existing allocator. 20180303 05:52:45<+discordbot> Didn't he have something to do with FAI? 20180303 05:52:50<+discordbot> Doug Lea's malloc IIRC. 20180303 05:52:56<+discordbot> That's 2008. 20180303 05:53:13<+discordbot> And it was ported over from SilverTree (another pet project of his). 20180303 05:53:18< celticminstrel> What'd he do with FAI? Are you saying it didn't exist before 2008, or...? 20180303 05:53:19<+discordbot> the space illuminati doesn't want us to use sourcefed and try to find the truth about alpha builds. 20180303 05:54:03<+discordbot> The formula language and some rudimentary AI programming support built upon it were ported from SilverTree at the start of the 1.5.x development cycle. 20180303 05:54:45<+discordbot> Good to know, I had only a vague recollection. 20180303 05:56:04<+discordbot> 1.0 wasn't alpha, by the way. It was a production release just like 1.2, 1.4, 1.6, 1.8, 1.10, and 1.12. 20180303 05:56:17<+discordbot> It's the 0.x versions that were technically alphas (and later betas). 20180303 06:03:23<+discordbot> How is 1.14 coming? 20180303 06:06:49< celticminstrel> Slowly but surely I think? 20180303 06:07:10< celticminstrel> Actually in the last few months there's been a lot of work done. 20180303 06:07:21<+discordbot> celticminstrel, I think this might be what you were remembering 20180303 06:07:28<+discordbot> > ‘So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few even of the lore-masters now can read, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men. And Boromir, there lies in Minas Tirith still, unread, I guess, by any save Saruman and myself since the kings failed, a scroll that Isildur made himself. 20180303 06:07:58< celticminstrel> Probably something like that, yeah. 20180303 06:08:01<+discordbot> I’d read your scroll 20180303 06:08:09<+discordbot> If you know what I mean 20180303 06:08:42<+discordbot> I don’t know what I mean 🤔 20180303 06:15:00<+discordbot> In the new version if there are multiplayer lobbies that you can't get into because you don't have the right add ons can you get them just by clicking the game you want to join? 20180303 06:15:28-!- Choicerer [d598a10a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.152.161.10] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 06:18:41-!- Choicerer [d598a10a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.152.161.10] has quit [Client Quit] 20180303 06:25:53-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20180303 07:01:17<+discordbot> Whats up guys OwO 20180303 07:01:20<+discordbot> :] 20180303 07:34:21<+discordbot> In case anyone's interested and good with video editing, Wesnoth's looking for a new trailer to be made: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47873 20180303 07:35:51<+discordbot> where's the old one? 20180303 07:36:00<+discordbot> https://www.wesnoth.org/ 20180303 07:36:07<+discordbot> Scroll down a bit and you'll see it. 20180303 07:36:18<+discordbot> erm, right 20180303 08:03:10<+discordbot> ... 20180303 08:03:14<+discordbot> doofus-01's picture 20180303 08:03:21<+discordbot> cmon lmao xD 20180303 08:03:53<+discordbot> Humans are so cute honestly xD 20180303 08:04:27<+discordbot> I'm kind of interested in making a trailer but I doubt that I would get to it 20180303 08:04:41<+discordbot> especially since I got a new computer with me. Sorry guys :[ 20180303 08:36:12-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 09:44:27<+discordbot> Mhh, there should be a status=unmoveable key, which stops the AI from moving that certain unit... 20180303 09:57:16-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 09:57:24-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 09:59:51<+discordbot> Not necessary 20180303 10:00:34<+discordbot> Just put an object and have a side turn event that sets moves=0 20180303 10:00:34< zookeeper> is there some situation where the usual very simple event-based movement disablement can't be used? 20180303 10:02:24<+discordbot> Working on a small library that extends some functionality and I don't want to have many extra lines whenever it is used 20180303 10:04:05< zookeeper> well, you can have the event at era/campaign/whatever-level that checks for a unit variable you set for units you don't want to move. 20180303 10:04:38< zookeeper> seems like a super-simple solution, although i don't know what exactly you mean by a library. 20180303 10:05:09<+discordbot> A set of macros that I use for my campaigns, so I don't have to put the same macros into each campaign-folder 20180303 10:05:58<+discordbot> #define IMPRISONED_UNIT X Y TYPE SIDE [item] x,y={X},{Y} halo=items/cage.png [/item] {GENERIC_UNIT {SIDE} {TYPE} {X} {Y}} [event] name=moveto first_time_only=yes [filter] [filter_location] x,y={X},{Y} radius=1 [/filter_location] side=1 [/filter] [modify_unit] [filter] 20180303 10:05:59<+discordbot> x,y={X},{Y} [/filter] side=1 [/modify_unit] [remove_item] x,y={X},{Y} [/remove_item] [/event] #enddef 20180303 10:06:24<+discordbot> And I don't want that generic unit to move out of the cage, which it obviously would, if there is no further AI code. How to prevent that? 20180303 10:09:23<+discordbot> Ah wait, I can do that by adding a "Captured" side, which just has no controller 20180303 10:09:58< zookeeper> depends on how easily you need to be able to reverse that. for example you can just give an effect that sets max moves to 0, but then you'd need to get rid of that later. 20180303 10:10:52< zookeeper> and for sure you can add a separate side, but that doesn't sound like a very library'ish approach since it requires each scenario you use that in to define such a side... 20180303 10:13:06-!- Lirion [~m00se@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has quit [Quit: echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D4D465452snlb xq |dc] 20180303 10:15:39<+discordbot> It is possible to get rid of that, right? Didnt do much WML since weeks.. 20180303 10:18:03<+discordbot> Other than that, I still need another side for it... Otherwise the AI would just attack the captured units or the player would take them over to the next scenario, even if not freeing them.. 20180303 10:20:43< zookeeper> you could always just petrify them... ;) 20180303 10:25:27< zookeeper> maybe you could even use an imagemod to blit the unit's own baseframe on top to hide the desaturation. not sure at what point the desaturation gets applied, though. 20180303 10:25:55-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 11:08:53-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180303 11:34:34-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 11:34:40-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 11:34:42-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180303 12:02:03-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 12:08:56-!- Choicerer [d598a10a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.152.161.10] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 14:36:30-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel 20180303 14:43:10-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 15:29:13-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.207.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180303 15:29:47-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.207.231] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 15:47:27-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@61.68.207.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180303 16:18:09<+discordbot> Have you tried simply asking them to stay in the cell? 20180303 16:19:02< celticminstrel> Haha 20180303 16:19:23< celticminstrel> It's probably possible to specifically ask AI not to move them though... 20180303 16:20:47<+discordbot> Isn't there a "guardian" special ai? I vaguely recall seeing that or something similar. 20180303 16:21:25< celticminstrel> That's generally someone who doesn't move until you get close, or similar. 20180303 16:57:22<+discordbot> How much documentation is there for Wesnoth's source code? 20180303 16:57:44< celticminstrel> There's some, I guess? 20180303 16:57:44-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@dsl217-132-38-129.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 16:58:08< celticminstrel> Doxygen-style comments are used in places. Sometimes they're not kept up-to-date, sadly. 20180303 16:58:23< celticminstrel> I'm not sure how often doxygen is run to generate API documentation. 20180303 16:59:04<+discordbot> ah 20180303 17:04:57<+discordbot> This is probably a somewhat dumb question, but does anyone know where the source code for defining macros is, and/or where the source code for campaign defines is? 20180303 17:05:17< celticminstrel> It's not a dumb question. 20180303 17:05:32< celticminstrel> But I'm a bit unclear on what you mean. 20180303 17:07:53<+discordbot> define=CAMPAIGN_SYMBOL when this campaign is started, the preprocessor symbol CAMPAIGN_SYMBOL will be defined 20180303 17:07:58<+discordbot> Does this help? 20180303 17:08:41< celticminstrel> Hmm. 20180303 17:09:07< celticminstrel> I'm not actually sure where in the source that's handled, but if I were to guess, I'd suggest maybe somewhere in create_engine.cpp... 20180303 17:11:50<+discordbot> Okay, I think I found it, thanks. 20180303 17:13:03<+discordbot> state_.classification().campaign_define = current_level_data["define"].str(); state_.classification().campaign_xtra_defines = utils::split(current_level_data["extra_defines"]); 20180303 17:16:30< zookeeper> you can always (well, usually) find the source code by just grepping/searching for the relevant tag/key/value/whatever. 20180303 17:17:17< zookeeper> since, of course, the code for handling extra_defines= naturally has to include "extra_defines" in it. 20180303 17:18:13< celticminstrel> ^ 20180303 17:18:41< celticminstrel> Though it doesn't always point you directly to the place it's handled (because sometimes it's stored in a class), but it should at least point you in the right direction. 20180303 17:22:29<+discordbot> That's actually what I usaully do, and I have no idea why I didn't do it that time. 20180303 17:22:54< celticminstrel> XD 20180303 18:38:44-!- Choicerer [d598a10a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.213.152.161.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180303 18:50:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 18:50:23-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 18:50:40<+discordbot> The guardian AI will work so long as make the units neutral 20180303 18:50:46<+discordbot> * as you make 20180303 18:51:21<+discordbot> Which you'd have to do anyways. 20180303 18:51:36<+discordbot> You have to decide how you want caging to work anyways 20180303 18:51:46<+discordbot> Do you move next to the cage or atop? 20180303 18:53:02<+discordbot> If you want a unit to have to move on top of the cage, then you need to [image] / event moveto (or [unstore]) anyways 20180303 19:01:45-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 19:01:48< hk238> hello : ) 20180303 19:02:27<+discordbot> Hi 20180303 19:03:07<+discordbot> Hello. 20180303 19:15:17< hk238> searched the Art Workshop for LotI images and Dugi's portrait from 2012 is interesting :D https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=36191&hilit=legend#p522079 20180303 19:17:44< hk238> sorry 20180303 19:29:29< hk238> hmm I just thought about a WML ability that might increase the complexity of the game a little bit, namely 'dodge' which is a common thing in these fantasy themed games, but anyway you could have for an example 3 different levels of dodge, which correspond to having a counter pool 0/1 - 1/1 to 0/3 - 3/3 20180303 19:30:26< hk238> then for each counter a unit would have a say 30% chance to avoid an attack, and if so, then a counter is depleted from the pool. At the start of a new turn, the pool is refreshed 20180303 19:31:35<+discordbot> additively or multiplicatively? otherwise with one token you'd have units that can get 100% dodge. 20180303 19:31:38< hk238> so if you have a 3 counter pool (corresponding to highest level on in this imaginary example) you would have a 65% chance to dodge 1st attack (which would be a lot I guess) 20180303 19:31:50< hk238> multiplicatively that is 20180303 19:31:57< hk238> 30% chance might be too high 20180303 19:32:50< hk238> however the actual point of this ability is not just to add to defense of units but to increase the complexity that is the usefulness of the ability is then proportional to the amount of attacks between the start of turns of the player 20180303 19:33:25< hk238> so if you have 1 counter pool, and you get attacked only once, there's a chance to avoid all of the attacks essentially 20180303 19:33:37< hk238> but if you get attacked 3 times then you can at best 1/3 of them 20180303 19:34:38-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 19:35:21< hk238> which would mean that the ability is more useful when the damage / number of attacks ratio is high.. although this then depends on the probabilities as well, as then it increases the significance of chance for very low numbers (as with with very low number of attacks the chance that counters fail to deplete increases) 20180303 19:35:46< hk238> I'm not sure what kind of figures would create an optimal balance in this fashion.. just an idea.. 20180303 19:36:51< hk238> it also means that if you have 2 units, one with high number of attacks, and another one with high dmg/number of attacks ratio, then it can be better to try and deplete the dodge counters first with the former unit, and only then attempt with the latter unit 20180303 19:37:11< hk238> but thinking about it 3 counters seems like a lot.. 2 might be a more appropriate maximum? 20180303 19:41:01< hk238> if you can make that work, then you could also add another meta-ability around that ability, such that any succesful hit from a unit with the ability drains all the remaining dodge counters, or otherwise disables it 20180303 19:53:26< hk238> idk 20180303 20:10:15-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 20:10:24-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 20:20:40< celticminstrel> hk238: What you're desecribing sounds a bit like parry, which exists. 20180303 20:20:52< hk238> probably how does parry work then? :o 20180303 20:21:00< celticminstrel> Though that's just my initial impression, I haven't finished reading everything you said. 20180303 20:21:11< hk238> okay :D 20180303 20:23:20< celticminstrel> Parry is described at https://wiki.wesnoth.org/UnitTypeWML#Attacks 20180303 20:25:03-!- trewe [~trewe@78.130.12.20.rev.optimus.pt] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 20:27:28-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 21:02:34-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180303 21:04:32-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 21:37:02-!- trewe [~trewe@78.130.12.20.rev.optimus.pt] has quit [Quit: quit] 20180303 22:18:29-!- aeth_ is now known as aeth 20180303 22:41:12<+discordbot> okay, hmmm now I'm at a blank 20180303 22:42:30<+discordbot> I'll probably just leave this for somebody else to figure out. I've gotten to the right areas, but damn does this codebase confuse me. 20180303 23:04:18-!- octalot [~steve@178.115.129.13.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180303 23:04:26<+discordbot> How is everyone? 20180303 23:04:59< hk238> celticminstrel it seems to have a similar sort of meaning, is the parry additive? 20180303 23:05:40< hk238> although it works on cth it seems like those could complement each other reasonably well..? :d 20180303 23:05:48< celticminstrel> Think so? 20180303 23:06:15< hk238> so for an example if it deduces 10 points from cth does it mean that 40% chance to hit becomes 30%? 20180303 23:06:21<+discordbot> Well, Wereweed, I'm doing good. 20180303 23:06:52< hk238> so yeah I think parry seems like nice feature 20180303 23:07:19< hk238> it seems comparatively more useful when opponent has a low cth thus complementing defense 20180303 23:07:37< hk238> as well the geometric change in cth would then be larger with high defense and lower with low defense 20180303 23:07:50-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180303 23:08:13< hk238> but that does make it a bit apply own statistics -type of feature thus it rather differentiates between ranged and melee combat than different types of opponents 20180303 23:08:32< hk238> due to that chance to hit is based on the hex the unit being attacked is standing and not on the attacking unit or the hex that unit is on 20180303 23:10:01<+discordbot> @Not Hamel What happened? 20180303 23:10:18<+discordbot> Ech lo 20180303 23:10:20<+discordbot> Misread that 20180303 23:10:25<+discordbot> Thought you said Im not doing good 20180303 23:10:47<+discordbot> Huh. Oh okay. 20180303 23:10:54<+discordbot> Thanks for wondering tho. 20180303 23:51:32-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180303 23:51:41-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [] --- Log closed Sun Mar 04 00:00:34 2018