--- Log opened Tue Mar 13 00:00:34 2018 20180313 00:17:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180313 00:18:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 01:04:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180313 01:05:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 01:11:17-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.111.185.228] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 01:12:45-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [] 20180313 01:44:33-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 01:47:02< mattsc> Tecraus: brief descriptions of the available AIs are here: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Wesnoth_AI#Available_AIs 20180313 01:47:38< Tecraus> Thanks. I'm still reading your thread... 20180313 01:47:43<+discordbot2> I kind of want to make a Fire Emblem mod, but I couldn't share it and I can't sprite šŸ¤” 20180313 01:49:12<+discordbot2> *ahem, I am pretty bad at it and am unwilling to spend time learning because there's an awful lot of other things I've already learned to do well that I could be doing 20180313 01:50:16< mattsc> Tecraus: okay :) Iā€™ll just add a couple sentence about the ā€œhistoryā€ here then. 20180313 01:50:22< mattsc> The experimental AI is called experimental because it was meant as an intermediate stage that would be developed further. 20180313 01:51:18< mattsc> The problem is that that never really happened. The closest we have to the next development stage is Fred, and Fredā€™s not anywhere close to being generally usable. 20180313 01:51:33<+discordbot2> Just as it is possible to include custom AIs in the scenario code, they can also be provided for selection from the MP setup menu. These can be written either for specific scenarios/maps or so that they are available for all maps. Ok, that sounds like it could enable some really cool map concepts 20180313 01:51:48< mattsc> In fact thereā€™s still plenty of problems with Fred just on Freelands ā€¦ 20180313 01:52:17< mattsc> But yeah, heā€™s not dead, although progress has slowed to a crawl, I have almost no time for it. 20180313 01:56:09< Tecraus> According to other people's reviews, he is way better than default. Too bad he's isolated (in 1 map only) and somewhat racist (just Orcs)... Does Fred vote for Trump? 20180313 01:58:04<+discordbot2> We don't talk about that here. 20180313 01:58:06< mattsc> Tecraus: the goal is to make him work on all maps and with all factions. But we figured weā€™d start with an easier problem: one faction on one map. And thatā€™s certainly not accomplished yet. 20180313 02:00:39< Tecraus> Yeah I'm just joking, shadown, relax. And I would do the same if I were you, mattsc. 20180313 02:01:30< Tecraus> Any particular reason why you chose Northeners to start with? 20180313 02:01:58< mattsc> Different factions is easy (in fact, all you have to do is to take out the line that _prevents_ Fred from using other factions), different maps are not. 20180313 02:02:20< mattsc> Yep. Northerners are designed by Dave to be ā€œeasyā€ to play by an AI. 20180313 02:02:54< mattsc> The donā€™t have things like leadership or healing or ā€¦ which are all much harder to do than a brute force grunt rush. 20180313 02:03:10< mattsc> Not that Fred is even close to a grunt rush any more ... 20180313 02:06:54< Tecraus> They have their own special ability: poison. it's not like they are completely simple. In fact, it's a myth that Northeners are always aggressive. They can be also defensive while building a massive horde of upkeep-free Goblins (at the right map of course with the right number of villages). If Fred is currently "too defensive", as some forum members write, maybe he could try that... That kind of map is that "Freelands"? 20180313 02:07:27< Tecraus> what* 20180313 02:08:24< mattsc> Right. On all of that. 20180313 02:09:25< Tecraus> Oh! And I forgot to mention slow ability which is both powerful and hard to have as requires leveling up. So, no, it's definitely not a simple faction. 20180313 02:09:46< mattsc> But the thing with Fred being too defensive is really not a general problem. Thereā€™s a lot of free parameters in the evaluation functions and I can make him way too aggressive without changing anything in the code structure, just by changing some values of parameters. 20180313 02:10:27< mattsc> No, itā€™s not simple. After literally years of working on this, I can attest to that. 20180313 02:10:36< mattsc> Thatā€™s why the ā€œeasyā€ is in quotes up there. :) 20180313 02:11:24< mattsc> Coming back to Fred, the trick is to get the right balance of aggressive and defensive across the board, not just for individual actions and/or situations. 20180313 02:11:38< mattsc> And while I think that I am making progress, itā€™s far from solved. 20180313 02:16:22< mattsc> And, btw, the things with the free parameters is intentional, of course. Thatā€™s what will allow us (eventually) to adapt the AI to different factions, maps, map designer preferences, etc. 20180313 02:21:06< Tecraus> Far from perfect, but better than default right from the start. You should be proud of what you're making. I'll install that add-on if I'll like the map, I'll make it my new personal practice field. 20180313 02:21:54< Tecraus> It's not an island, is it? 20180313 02:23:59-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6C28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180313 02:25:49< mattsc> No, not an island. And thanks. 20180313 02:29:48< Tecraus> I love fights for control over water. Sea gives me the right space to experiment with swimming and flying units away from the rest of them.... I assume Fred doesn't recruit much Nagas... 20180313 02:31:33< Tecraus> How is the name of the add-on again? 20180313 02:32:29< mattsc> AI-demos. You can also just type my nick into the search bar. 20180313 02:35:46< mattsc> Well, I guess the name is ā€œAI modification demosā€. But any part of that typed in will find it. 20180313 02:44:20< Tecraus> Istalled. I'm creating a game right now. Which of AI era and AI mod activation to choose? Do they both do the same? 20180313 02:44:54< mattsc> Yep, same thing. 20180313 02:49:53< Tecraus> Do I have to choose specific leader for Fred? 20180313 02:51:00< mattsc> nope 20180313 02:51:15< mattsc> you can also just try; heā€™ll complain if he doesnā€™t like it ;) 20180313 02:52:04< Tecraus> ? 20180313 02:52:35< celticminstrel> XD What 20180313 02:53:17< mattsc> If you choose a faction or map or something that Fred doesnā€™t want to play, he wonā€™t. :) 20180313 02:53:28< celticminstrel> That's hilarious. 20180313 02:53:50< mattsc> Heā€™ll also remove the fog from the map for you if you choose that setting. 20180313 02:54:32< Tecraus> You are trolling me! Is this a hint to pick a Troll for his leader? 20180313 02:55:38< mattsc> Nope; you can choose whatever leader you want; or leave it at random. 20180313 02:55:49< mattsc> But he wonā€™t let you choose a faction other than Northerners. 20180313 02:56:13< mattsc> (for Fredā€™s side, I mean; I assume that was clear) 20180313 02:59:00< Tecraus> I did tried otherwise to see what happens. He said "I only know how to play Northeners" and then I was instantly defeated! HOW CAN YOU BE DEFEATED BEFORE YOU EVEN STARTED BY SOMEONE WHO JUST ADMITTED HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY?!? Fred is a troll indeed. 20180313 02:59:24< Tecraus> LOL 20180313 02:59:34<+discordbot2> sounds like a meme about anime 20180313 03:14:47<+discordbot2> @Kwandulin I think Ashen Hearts still has a chance. 20180313 03:15:30< celticminstrel> If by "still has a chance" you mean for mainlining in 1.15.x, then yes. 20180313 03:16:25<+discordbot2> yep, that's what I mean. 20180313 03:42:23<+discordbot2> yeah, omae wa mou shindeiru. mattsc, have you tried limiting fred's recruit to like 1 or 2 units? eg limiting his recruits to only grunts? 20180313 03:43:13<+discordbot2> or only trolls, or archers + grunts in like 2:1 ratio, that prob would be the best since there is no counter to that 20180313 03:45:02<+discordbot2> hm or troll + archers, in theory, only in pure theory, defensively that would be the best but whether ai could make it work, i do not know 20180313 03:45:43< mattsc> no; because thereā€™s much bigger problems at the moment; but thatā€™s easy to do once those are (somewhat) taken care of 20180313 03:45:49<+discordbot2> like 2 days ago I have won a game on freelands as orcs vs p1 loyalists with 4 level 2s vs 0 and with 5 upkeep disadvantage spamming trolls so yeah, its pretty strong xD 20180313 03:46:05<+discordbot2> maybe you should try it and see how it goes 20180313 03:46:23< celticminstrel> ...what's with the random Japanese. 20180313 03:46:41<+discordbot2> well, sb mentioned a meme about anime 20180313 03:46:50<+discordbot2> you can ignore it 20180313 03:47:10< celticminstrel> I'm probably wrong but I feel like it might mean something like "you're dead too". 20180313 03:47:22<+discordbot2> "you are already dead" 20180313 03:47:28< celticminstrel> Oh, I was surprisingly close. 20180313 03:47:39<+discordbot2> yeah.. 20180313 03:47:41< celticminstrel> Just misinterpreted mou. 20180313 03:47:52<+discordbot2> just as if, you have heard it before xD 20180313 03:48:00< celticminstrel> No, I haven't. 20180313 03:48:16< celticminstrel> Or well. I mean, I might've heard it in passing, but. 20180313 03:49:48-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180313 03:58:34< Tecraus> I don't know anime-bananim, but it surely sounds like something you could say to undead. 20180313 03:58:57< Tecraus> ...played by a Japanese guy. 20180313 04:06:41<+discordbot2> Not the best thing to say to your opponent 20180313 04:08:06<+discordbot2> When i play the undead my favourite line to say is when my opponent says something like "Die!" "die with honor!" "you will die" and then he sees I am undead and here comes my line: "I am already dead" 20180313 04:08:08<+discordbot2> XD 20180313 04:12:33< Tecraus> Best or not, it's a fact, isn't it? :-P 20180313 04:13:37<+discordbot2> indeed it is xD 20180313 04:13:47<+discordbot2> and more importantly may confuse your opponent xD 20180313 04:14:42< Tecraus> I'm trying the Freelands. I didn't realise how smal that map is and I started with 3 Elvish Scouts and a mermen... [facepalm] 20180313 04:15:08<+discordbot2> vs fred? 20180313 04:15:13< Tecraus> yes 20180313 04:16:03-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180313 04:17:29<+discordbot2> well, i am pretty certain that if you spam fighters, you will not have a pleasure of defeating fred's rush and winning in glory 20180313 04:18:56< Tecraus> I never spam rebel fighters. Why someone should do that?? 20180313 04:19:23<+discordbot2> well, most people spam fighters to varying degrees xD 20180313 04:21:14< Tecraus> Most people are not as great players as myself, I guess. 20180313 04:21:21< Tecraus> Or humble. 20180313 04:21:31<+discordbot2> XD I like that response 20180313 04:22:51< Tecraus> mattsc left the channel just before I'd ask whether Fred sees invisible units. 20180313 04:23:23<+discordbot2> anyway, prepare for somthing like a 30 turns match if fred has bonus income, if not, well still be prepared for 30 turns match even if it will not happen 20180313 04:23:43<+discordbot2> ai does not see invisible units 20180313 04:24:22<+discordbot2> and i do not think you can change it hm 20180313 04:24:33< Tecraus> Sometimes I'm feeling the opposite. 20180313 04:25:06<+discordbot2> ai does not fall for your ambush or it does fall for it and you think it intentionally attacked your wose? 20180313 04:25:22<+discordbot2> since the latter could be easily explained 20180313 04:25:43<+discordbot2> fred is usually interested in building lines 20180313 04:27:14< Tecraus> I have seen default AI having absolute no reason to take a weird route just to discover an Elvish Ranger in AI's range... and not just once. 20180313 04:27:42< Tecraus> mattsc said Fred has no fog either you have or not... 20180313 04:28:41<+discordbot2> ah, no, ai always has a reason to march forward, also it could be a bit complicated so the route may be only seemingly random 20180313 04:29:08<+discordbot2> yeah i think i remember that 20180313 04:29:39<+discordbot2> but it does not really mean he sees ambush 20180313 04:29:49< Tecraus> It was not forward. 20180313 04:29:52<+discordbot2> anyway do not takem y word for it, but i doubt he does 20180313 04:30:51<+discordbot2> from what i have seen the default ai always choses a route that does not take into account the ambushed unit 20180313 04:31:51< Tecraus> in my case, that was true only if my hidden unit was out of range 20180313 04:35:24< Tecraus> AIs never chased a hidden unit of mine being out of range, but most of the times they "accidentally" fall on my hidden unit, if in-range, even if it was forgotten there for several turns and at the edge of the map and out of route 20180313 04:35:57< Tecraus> so "weird" was understatement actually 20180313 04:39:04-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 04:39:46< mattsc> Tecraus: I canā€™t be online right now, but just really quickly: yes, Fred currently has full knowledge of the map and all units, incl. ambushers 20180313 04:40:25< mattsc> Once I figure out how to do things right - IF I ever figure out how to do things right - thatā€™s very easy to change. 20180313 04:41:04< Tecraus> I thought so. Also... mattsc, my leader had his revenge: I have the "You have emerged victorious" message at 3rd turn without a single battle! 20180313 04:41:29< mattsc> Uh, thatā€™s very strange. 20180313 04:41:38< mattsc> Was there a Lua error message at the same time? 20180313 04:41:41< Tecraus> Do you want a screenshot of ... something called "lua error" ? 20180313 04:41:52< mattsc> Yeah. 20180313 04:42:05< mattsc> this is wtih what version of Fred, and what version of Wesnoth? 20180313 04:42:41< Tecraus> I installed the add-on today, so I assume it's the last one. 20180313 04:43:09< Tecraus> I mean the add-on. The game is 1.12.6 20180313 04:43:15< mattsc> Hmm, I usually try to keep the released versions as free of bugs as possible, but obviously itā€™s not perfect ā€¦ 20180313 04:45:07< mattsc> Also, as I have said, even without errors Fred has currently all kinds of issues, so ā€¦ take it for what itā€™s worth. 20180313 04:46:08< mattsc> I have to be off though, sorry, and I currently have no idea when Iā€™ll be back. I do check the logs for my nick though, so just ping me if thereā€™s something. (Or forum PMs work too, I get email notifications for those.) 20180313 04:48:03-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180313 04:51:11< Tecraus> I'm not a forum member (yet). Here's your screenshot mattsc ---> https://postimg.org/image/4x9cudj9h/ I hadn't the chance to test Fred, but at least I hope that error report will help you. 20180313 04:52:54< Tecraus> If you ever see that message, that is. 20180313 04:54:09< Tecraus> I don't check chat logs, so I'll say it upfront: You're welcome. 20180313 05:01:53< Tecraus> ...And sorry for breaking Fred LOL 20180313 05:02:47< Tecraus> You see, EoZ, that's how great I am. Fred saw me and killed himself! 20180313 05:02:50< Tecraus> :-P 20180313 05:04:16< Tecraus> See you around guys. 20180313 05:04:27-!- Tecraus [~wesnothia@2a02:2149:8453:8000:d83c:609e:1e55:a1a8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180313 05:05:59<+discordbot2> I remember way back in age of empires 2, the AI would do something similar. It'd just stand around doing nothing for ~5 minutes, then surrender. 20180313 05:06:30<+discordbot2> didn't happen often, but it was kinda annoying when it did 20180313 05:21:01-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180313 05:23:07-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 05:23:35<+discordbot2> It was a bug in the retail version that only affected when playing with the AI below a certain difficulty level. 20180313 05:26:58<+discordbot2> also there was if MP if multiple people chose the same civ/side/color, you'd share control of the side. That was actually fun though šŸ˜„ 20180313 05:27:10<+discordbot2> *in 20180313 05:47:23<+discordbot2> @sigurdfd Then let us keep that in mind for 1.15. Yumi will certainly take a look at the dialogues and some devs might do a playthrough of AH. I will then fix remaining bugs (in case there are any) and balance touchups. Since I got no experience with GitHub, I will then send you my local copy? We might want to do an issue on GitHub to not forget about it? 20180313 06:52:36-!- Guest93156 [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 07:45:45-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 08:44:50-!- Guest93156 is now known as Haudegen 20180313 08:56:17<+discordbot2> Uh, so I want to have 3 Dwarvish Arcanisters for side 1. But I want them to be fancy and have each of them a different - unusual - team colour, like gold or so. How would I do that? 20180313 09:15:57< zookeeper> check out grĆ¼Ć¼ in SotBE or darken volk in DiD, or... uh, i guess there were some others too, maybe even using something other than ~PAL. 20180313 09:18:28<+discordbot2> Alright, thanks for the hint 20180313 09:19:14< zookeeper> or if some of the predefined ones in core/team-colors.cfg will suffice, then the simplest way to do it is the same way as tallin in NR 20180313 09:19:40< zookeeper> in fact there's a whole lot of color ranges defined there beyond just the usual team colors. 20180313 09:21:14< zookeeper> so, i'd suggest trying that first since it doesn't require you to hardcode all those awkward color values. 20180313 09:27:17-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 09:27:17-!- Topic for #wesnoth: Wesnoth User Channel | https://www.wesnoth.org | https://status.wesnoth.org | Official Discord: https://discord.gg/tSmJS2E | Latest stable version 1.12.6 | Latest development version 1.13.10 | >> Want to help? 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19:02:19-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 19:55:49-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6D18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 20:16:16-!- discordbot1 [~discordbo@baldras.wesnoth.org] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 20:16:19-!- mode/#wesnoth [+v discordbot1] by ChanServ 20180313 20:19:04-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180313 21:24:53-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180313 21:30:55-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 21:48:47-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 23:08:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180313 23:14:03-!- vultraz [uid24821@wesnoth/developer/vultraz] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 23:16:24-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [] 20180313 23:21:05<+discordbot1> how to remove messages that appear when I debug? in 1.13.11,if possible? 20180313 23:22:03<+discordbot1> it keeps telling me I have used debug in a campaign... but I know this. >_> 20180313 23:22:22<+discordbot1> @Vultraz ^ 20180313 23:23:07<+discordbot1> I thought "hmm. I'll give 1.13.11 a go!" then it decides to tell me I am debugging and using commands in a campaign. I am doing this for fun and they take a bit to dissapear. X_X 20180313 23:23:23-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 23:23:35<+discordbot1> oh yeah 20180313 23:23:37<+discordbot1> those 20180313 23:23:39<+discordbot1> is there a setting I can simply disable? 20180313 23:23:41<+discordbot1> no way to get rid of them right now 20180313 23:23:48<+discordbot1> bugger. lol. 20180313 23:23:53<+discordbot1> sorry 20180313 23:24:05<+discordbot1> ah well. they take about... 20 seconds to dissapear. X_X 20180313 23:24:43<+discordbot1> do you think it might be possible to remove them in future patches? šŸ¤· though it's just speculation. 20180313 23:24:58<+discordbot1> possibly, yes 20180313 23:25:18<+discordbot1> I do hope so. but... if not, then fair enough. I just gotta deal with it atm. 20180313 23:25:36<+discordbot1> I'll see what I can do 20180313 23:25:44<+discordbot1> I must admit, though. there's one thing I do enjoy in terms of the debugging from 12 to 13. instead of the undead skeletons, for instance. just.... appearing, essentially. they decide to rise up from the ground like they should! šŸ˜„ 20180313 23:26:04<+discordbot1> ofc there's the some occasional times they might not like where they pop up from the water etc. etc. but other then that. it's cool. 20180313 23:35:02< Ravana_> those messages seem like intended for mp debug, but only partially implemented 20180313 23:37:17<+discordbot1> oddly enough, it's in campaign too. 20180313 23:37:25<+discordbot1> multiplayer, I could understand. campaign.... well. not as much 20180313 23:48:06-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180313 23:51:09<+discordbot1> Plz test addon "Time Watchers". I'm waiting for opinions. Early access;). 20180313 23:53:09<+discordbot1> I would test it, but I've been really busy and tired today. Sorry, wish I could. 20180313 23:54:44<+discordbot1> What if in Wesnoth, we had boss battles? or like, where units took up multiple hexes on the screen? 20180313 23:55:07<+discordbot1> I think that would be really cool 20180313 23:55:23<+discordbot1> maybe something that could be incorporated in a campaign ;3 20180313 23:56:03<+discordbot1> play Invasion from the Unknown or After the Storm 20180313 23:56:12<+discordbot1> for that 20180313 23:56:23<+discordbot1> Okay! Thank you for the suggestion :} 20180313 23:56:33<+discordbot1> they have such a thing? 20180313 23:56:46<+discordbot1> there are definitely boss battles 20180313 23:56:52<+discordbot1> that's cool! 20180313 23:56:56<+discordbot1> I don't believe there are multi-hex units, however 20180313 23:57:12<+discordbot1> I was thinking like gigantic stuff or something, maybe a gigantic cyclops that takes 3 hexes xD 20180313 23:57:19<+discordbot1> well, not a single unit that takes up many hexes 20180313 23:57:34<+discordbot1> there would have to be some engine sorcery to do that 20180313 23:57:35<+discordbot1> Right, that is what I was thinking of, but also about boss battles too so theres that xD 20180313 23:57:37<+discordbot1> or maybe some hacky thing 20180313 23:57:41<+discordbot1> Hmm 20180313 23:57:45<+discordbot1> hmmmmmmm šŸ¤” 20180313 23:57:50<+discordbot1> :3 --- Log closed Wed Mar 14 00:00:35 2018