20180317 06:00:01<+discordbot1> <shadowm> @IIIO_METAL Try now
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20180317 06:49:40<+discordbot2> <IIIO_METAL> I tried and it was completed.
20180317 06:52:47<+discordbot2> <shadowm> Pray that it doesn't break again while another system admin takes a look at the underlying issue while I sleep :p
20180317 07:03:03<+discordbot2> <IIIO_METAL> Thank you. Good work, shadowm.😄
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20180317 16:30:02< hk238> hi
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20180317 17:23:28< celticminstrel> BTW @Pentarctagon (if you're around), did you have any thoughts on the Dunefolk PR?
20180317 17:24:22<+discordbot2> <Pentarctagon> yep, I'm here
20180317 17:25:39< celticminstrel> Talking about the balance one in case you weren't sure.
20180317 17:26:49<+discordbot2> <Pentarctagon> I saw it, but didn't look too closely.  While I'm planning to start playing again once 1.14 comes out, for now it's been a few years since I've actually played a game, so anything related to balancing I don't think I can really have much useful input on.
20180317 17:32:13<+discordbot2> <Pentarctagon> then again, I've also been saying that for a couple years now
20180317 17:32:33<+discordbot2> <Pentarctagon> I really didn't expect for 1.13 to keep going for as long as it has.
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20180317 17:55:02< hk238> :o
20180317 17:55:29< hk238> Oh, boredom
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20180317 18:01:34<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> Ugh liminal is such a bad idea for MP
20180317 18:02:46<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> I think it is a fair idea.
20180317 18:03:11< Ravana_> liminal is quick way to weaken unit that would otherwise be too strong
20180317 18:04:54<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> It messes with strong and weak-neutral-strong-neutral-weak cycles
20180317 18:05:52<+discordbot2> <EoZ> what is that thing
20180317 18:06:28<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> liminal?
20180317 18:07:33<+discordbot2> <EoZ> i mean these cycles
20180317 18:07:34<+discordbot2> <EoZ> xD
20180317 18:08:00<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> If base damage is represented by the variable x, then such as x-25% during the day is chaotic, x-25% during the day and night, but not dawn or dusk is liminal.
20180317 18:08:03< hk238> isn't it that liminal units have 0.75 0.75 1.00, 0.75 0.75 1.00 cycle? While other units have 0.75 0.75 1.00 1.25 1.25 1.00? Since the average for liminal units is then 0.83? that would mean that if you scale the cycle by a factor of 1/0.83.. then the cycle should become 0.90 0.90 1.20 0.90 0.90 1.20 or in other words just considering the base values for damage*numberofattacks should be 20% higher
20180317 18:08:07< hk238> ?
20180317 18:08:41<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> Yeah, but liminal units should be statistically stronger for balance.
20180317 18:09:03< hk238> but it does take away this regular kind of strategy that you want to fight during the night, so evening is good, so you want to be approaching during the evening.. and you want to escape at dawn if you're chaotic
20180317 18:09:40< hk238> also for liminal units the total effect of time of day is reduced
20180317 18:10:01<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> Yeah, there is that.
20180317 18:12:49< hk238> as far as  Iunderstand if you have liminal units then you would treat them almost exactly the same as whatever your opponent's units are not
20180317 18:13:02< hk238> so if your opponent is chaotic then you would with liminal units as if they were lawful
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20180317 18:17:16< hk238> hm 
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20180317 18:17:41< hk238> although there's this issue of attacker's advantage like in regular wesnoth like everyone knows 
20180317 18:18:03< hk238> so I'm not sure how that plays into it
20180317 18:18:17< hk238> but in anycase if you consider the adjusted values in the cycle 
20180317 18:18:35< hk238> having 0.83 dmg versus opponents 0.75 damage during their unfavoured time of day is advantageous
20180317 18:19:18< hk238> I mean 0.90 sorry I mixed up the numbers
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20180317 18:20:43< hk238> or in otherwords opponent has 1.25 / 0.90 adavantage during their favourd time of day, while liminal units have 0.90 / 0.75 in the ill-favoured time, and the liminal units have 1.20 / 1.00 during the neutral period
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20180317 18:21:45< hk238> so it'sa 38% advantage for the favoured time of day of the opponent, 20% advantage for liminal units during dusk/dawn, and also the same 20% advantage during the ill-favoured time of day 
20180317 18:22:05< hk238> so put it another way, while the impact of time of day is reduced compared to regular units
20180317 18:22:17< hk238> it's still very important to avoid engaging with the opponent during their favoured time of day
20180317 18:23:27< hk238> while for lawful, chaotic the advantage is 67%
20180317 18:24:41< hk238> which is just about the same as the difference of having a 60% defense and a 40% defense, except that there's also the advantage of the attacker.. Like you can't steer a ship when there's no wind or whatever the proverb is in english.. if it is :D
20180317 18:25:34< hk238> so like it's hard to use the 20% advantage to take over hexes where opponents enjoy a better defense
20180317 18:26:21< hk238> but then there's neutral units 
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20180317 18:28:51< hk238> hm
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20180317 18:31:50< hk238> one possibility would be to split liminals into 3 groups, and as additional possible solution it would be possible to change the 25% penalty to 30% and that you'd have to scale the stats by 25%.. another possibility is that you'd make these subgroups, so the standard liminals would be like liminal-neutral, (without theneed to call them that though) and then you could have liminal-chaotic
20180317 18:32:23< hk238> so then you could have something like.. im not sure if that makes any sense
20180317 18:35:16<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> liminal makes it impossible to intuitively parse a unit's stats
20180317 18:35:29<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> Messes with the power of strong
20180317 18:35:50<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> And doesn't flow well with normal attack-defend cycles
20180317 18:37:12<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> Let's say you're going up against elves, you can attack at advantage for essentially 4 rounds if you position your units right
20180317 18:37:24<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> And then you get caked during the night
20180317 18:38:14<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> Even more zany against orcs
20180317 18:39:44<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> It's basically an expert-level gameplay change, and people want to integrate it into the standard MP experience a new player will have? This doesn't make sense to me.
20180317 18:40:48<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> The tutorial doesn't cover it, and there's no way to encounter it in mainline single player
20180317 18:42:23<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> It's just bonkers to me that this is a MP-focused faction that breaks prior rules of gameplay
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20180317 18:54:34< hk238> I think one of things to do to make the game more fun would be to try and modify the very basic mechanics so that they allow for some more complexity
20180317 18:55:42< hk238> often different kinds of features and that how they affect sort of critical gameplay where you have to think and find better or worse options, require some way for there to exist a comparison that has a certain conditional dependencies or complexity so there's a notion of generality and a notion of an exception and the possibility of big exceptions sort of
20180317 18:56:19<+discordbot2> <EoZ> the thing is liminal units' stats are still decent during night
20180317 18:56:23< hk238> for an example
20180317 18:56:24<+discordbot2> <EoZ> during -25%
20180317 18:56:30<+discordbot2> <EoZ> unlike chaotic/lawful
20180317 18:57:00<+discordbot2> <EoZ> but if any of you wants to have any deeper insight into the gameplay - CP's knowledge compendium is out there
20180317 18:57:15< hk238> units have a defense in different hexes. There's a notion of generality, in that regardless of which attacker engages them, essentially it applies to that hex, but at the same time there's specificty, as it's that hex only, so it creates two kinds of rules, those that are general, and those that are a bit more specific, 
20180317 18:57:28< hk238> then you have exceptions like marksmanship or magical or similar, parry was something like that
20180317 18:58:17< hk238> then those rules create situations in which there are advantages, that can be quantified, such as a lawful unit having 1.25 base damage and a chaotic unit a 0.75 base damage during the day
20180317 18:58:32< hk238> and then you have exceptions again, like fearless, illumination
20180317 18:59:08< hk238> that's not so much a description of these games but rather a certain way of thinking about them or analysis which involves these sort of quantitative comparisons
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20180317 18:59:31< hk238> so for an example one possibility would be something like
20180317 18:59:48< hk238> well nevermind
20180317 19:01:00<+discordbot2> <EoZ> also liminal units do not require anyone to be able to "intuitively" parse the stats since they are very few, stats can be chosen best by test and you can still tweak their stats to be "slightly above" a normal unit and "slightly below" at -25%
20180317 19:03:49<+discordbot2> <EoZ> to clarify
20180317 19:04:07<+discordbot2> <EoZ> i am against putting it into default but default + khalifate era is a fine solution
20180317 19:05:29<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> dunefolk*
20180317 19:08:10<+discordbot2> <EoZ> ok i meant
20180317 19:08:14<+discordbot2> <EoZ> 'was a fine solution
20180317 19:08:18<+discordbot2> <EoZ> now the name will be changed
20180317 19:08:18<+discordbot2> <EoZ> XD
20180317 19:09:41<+discordbot2> <EoZ> but, i might sometimes use the old khalifate name and considering that besides the namest he faction is still completely the same, i hope nobody will mind that
20180317 19:12:13< hk238> It does seem like that name has become politically inappropriate
20180317 19:14:30<+discordbot2> <EoZ> its a historical name
20180317 19:14:47<+discordbot2> <jyrkive> It's still only a weak reference to caliphate. I think referring to them as Khalifate is fine, as long as you're doing it out of habit instead of as a political statement.
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20180317 19:19:07<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> Wasn't a caliphate analogous to a kingdom?
20180317 19:19:30<+discordbot2> <jyrkive> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate
20180317 19:19:36<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> With the Calif essentially being the King?
20180317 19:20:00<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> Ah, so a religious kingdom
20180317 19:21:12<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> more analogous to the not holy, not Roman, and not-an-empire Holy Roman Empire, then 😛
20180317 19:22:32<+discordbot2> <jyrkive> In any case, I get why some developers and players wanted to remove a clear reference to Islam. It's a politically charged topic.
20180317 19:23:03<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> Sadly.
20180317 19:24:23<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> I'd like to think a desire to actually understand the names without understanding Arabic was a greater reason, but... yeah
20180317 19:24:26< hk238> right but also with the light of the recent events it doesn't have quite the same interpretations anymore. Kind of like you could say national socialism or something like that is a certain kind of political movement, but it has been strongly associated to certain unfortunate events
20180317 19:24:47<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> Very good pont.
20180317 19:24:51<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> point.
20180317 19:25:55<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> I see why they removed it. It was a unique name, but as an organization, it is best to stay neutral in political events. My friend knows this well, and he helps run a small local business.
20180317 19:27:13<+discordbot2> <Vultraz> Not always.
20180317 19:28:13<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> Yeah, not always, though.
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20180317 21:13:37<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> @EoZ#3112 players should be able to intuitively understand what 7-4 means
20180317 21:14:05<+discordbot2> <pydsigner> As a measure of unit strength
20180317 21:20:19<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> I think they left the server for some reason.
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20180317 21:27:22<+discordbot2> <shadowm> Nope.
20180317 21:27:27<+discordbot2> <shadowm> Still in the member list.
20180317 21:27:28< celticminstrel> Personally I think the name Khalifate should be kept as a political entity including the dunefolk.
20180317 21:27:40<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> Hmm okay.
20180317 21:27:58<+discordbot2> <Not Hamel> Yeah, my bad, shadowm.
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