--- Log opened Sun Mar 25 00:00:14 2018 20180325 00:26:11-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 00:42:51-!- hk238 [~kvirc@a458.ip20.netikka.fi] has quit [] 20180325 01:07:51-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180325 01:08:18-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 01:08:19-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 03:25:22-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-442-8E05-2A07-C70F.dyn6.twc.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180325 03:33:25-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-F9B8-3196-4D5A-C632.dyn6.twc.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 03:53:47-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 03:53:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 04:02:01-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 04:02:07-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 04:02:07-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180325 04:13:09-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 04:13:15-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 04:34:37<+discordbot4> revisiting utbs i realize how poor the half-translation of that campaign is 20180325 04:34:56<+discordbot4> would look better untranslated 20180325 04:48:51-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180325 04:49:24-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 05:32:00<+discordbot4> hey guys, what version do peopl play? 20180325 05:32:21<+discordbot4> 1.12.6 is my guess. 20180325 05:32:50<+discordbot4> But Vultraz or one of the other devs or mods would know better than I do. 20180325 05:34:59< celticminstrel> I would hope some people are playing 1.13.12. 20180325 05:36:34<+discordbot4> 1.12.6 is the latest stable release. 1.13.12 is the first release candidate for what will become 1.14 though. 20180325 05:37:21<+discordbot4> So, 1.12.6 probably has more people, but we also definitely need people playing on 1.13.12 and reporting any bugs they find. 20180325 05:37:33<+discordbot4> especially since the plan is to put 1.14 up on Steam 20180325 05:39:49<+discordbot4> therer are ~50 people in 1.12 multiplayer lobby, and exactly 0 people in 1.13 multiplayer lobby 20180325 05:40:33<+discordbot4> you have to either wait around, or prearrange a game outside the lobby, if you want to play multiplayer in 1.13 20180325 05:41:17<+discordbot4> But if you want to help with fishing out bugs and trying new features, I would recommend it. 20180325 05:42:08<+discordbot4> (wait around for hours. pre-arranging a game outside is the sole good option) 20180325 05:42:22<+discordbot4> Yeah. 20180325 05:42:24<+discordbot4> @Safreti Do you have any other questions I may be able to help answer? 20180325 05:43:04<+discordbot4> Yeah, whenever I try to get agame going on 1.13 its crickets lol 20180325 05:43:06<+discordbot4> Uh... 20180325 05:43:26<+discordbot4> yeah, also does anyone have any interest in doing random maps? To me that's the most fascinating part of the game 20180325 05:43:52<+discordbot4> also, where is a good venue for prearranging a game? do people hang out on here? forums? some other placE? 20180325 05:43:56<+discordbot4> Yeah those are pretty interesting IMO if the RNG is set right. 20180325 05:44:26<+discordbot4> Like you don't want one castle surrounded by mountains and the other with deep water XD 20180325 05:44:27<+discordbot4> the normal random maps are so unbalanced that usually only very new players play them. But there is a popular multiplayer campaign in 1.12 called World Conquest 2, where each map is a random map 20180325 05:45:01<+discordbot4> If you want the best that Wesnoth random maps have to offer, you might want to try World Conquest 20180325 05:45:15<+discordbot4> It can be played solo, or with 2 or 3 players 20180325 05:46:15<+discordbot4> Well gotta go now. I would stick around if I could but it's approaching midnight here, and I hate sleep, but I need it. Cya. 20180325 05:46:26<+discordbot4> cya 20180325 05:46:41<+discordbot4> hmm. guess I need to find other new players then lol 20180325 05:47:11<+discordbot4> there is no obvious place to arrange games outside of the lobby. But asking here is ok, I believe, ive done it (for the Tetris addon, ha) 20180325 05:47:18<+discordbot4> thanks for the world conquest tip 20180325 07:11:05< celticminstrel> I can't decide whether to resurrect my 6-year-old art thread or start a new one... 20180325 07:11:18< celticminstrel> More of art hunting rather than art creation FTR. 20180325 07:13:46 * celticminstrel needs some sort of water-gushing-from-cave-wall type image. 20180325 08:35:42-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 09:14:20-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20180325 09:32:39-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 09:32:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 10:17:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 10:18:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 10:48:32-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 11:20:10-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511EC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 11:28:16-!- octalot [~steve@77.119.128.62.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [] 20180325 11:57:18-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20180325 11:58:54-!- Grickit [~derek@grickit.us] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 11:58:54-!- Grickit [~derek@grickit.us] has quit [Changing host] 20180325 11:58:54-!- Grickit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 12:57:04<+discordbot4> alright, soo, where do i request on the forums someone who can make artwork, portraits, or sprites for me? 20180325 13:00:13< Ravana_> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=9579 20180325 13:00:27-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180325 13:01:43-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 13:14:41<+discordbot4> @Kwandulin the gryphons don‘t die from retaliation. they somehow heal before doing their retreat move. 20180325 13:16:38<+discordbot4> @Kwandulin for the items you can only collect with specific units it‘d be nice if that‘d be explained when the wrong unit tries to take it. 20180325 13:17:45<+discordbot4> @Soliton Alright, noted it down for the next update 20180325 13:24:41-!- octalot [~steve@77.119.128.62.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 13:33:00<+discordbot4> 😢 20180325 13:33:03<+discordbot4> The forum style is gone 😢 20180325 13:35:12<+discordbot4> The AcidTech Orange style? Yeah. 20180325 13:35:25<+discordbot4> Rest of the website looks much nicer though, now 20180325 13:35:29<+discordbot4> But rip that style 20180325 13:37:49<+discordbot4> it was a small sacrifice for a big upgrade I guess 20180325 13:38:56<+discordbot4> thanks to the hard efforts of shadowm 20180325 13:40:55<+discordbot4> I guess 20180325 13:41:06<+discordbot4> And the rest of the site looks 👌 now 20180325 13:48:22-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 14:22:21-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 14:47:39-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel 20180325 14:56:18-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:8400:e233:8281:c025] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 15:07:39-!- Bonobo [~Bonobo@203.220.138.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180325 15:48:17-!- octalot [~steve@77.119.128.62.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180325 16:21:33-!- octalot [~steve@77.119.128.187.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 17:02:05-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180325 17:16:47-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 17:43:06-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:8400:e233:8281:c025] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180325 18:18:07<+discordbot4> hi 20180325 18:18:44<+discordbot4> hello 20180325 18:19:58<+discordbot4> under underscores unusable when making maps? 20180325 18:20:14-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 18:20:15< hk238> hi 20180325 18:23:15<+discordbot4> I keep getting an unexpect characters error when I try to load my custom map 20180325 18:25:01<+discordbot4> they're fine in the file name. not sure where they'd be used in the actual file. 20180325 18:25:54<+discordbot4> "Unexpected characters after variable name" 20180325 18:26:20< celticminstrel> That's a WML error. 20180325 18:26:22<+discordbot4> it then points me to the campaigns main.cfg 20180325 18:26:29< celticminstrel> It can happen for example if you forget the = after a key. 20180325 18:27:02 * celticminstrel knows this due to getting it a few times yesterday. 20180325 18:31:47<+discordbot4> Posting the whole error and your code to the forums might be easier. 20180325 18:36:38<+discordbot4> code? 20180325 18:38:12<+discordbot4> what if the campaign name, scenario name, and map name are all the same would that cause problems? 20180325 18:39:26< Soliton> rather than guessing it's easier you show the complete file the error is in and post the exact error message. 20180325 18:41:59<+discordbot4> https://pastebin.com/JitVxvq7 20180325 18:43:09<+discordbot4> nvm 20180325 18:48:08<+discordbot4> lol I took a random elf picture from a campaign to be my campaign icon and it is huge. 20180325 18:48:19<+discordbot4> (I know how to fix this.) 20180325 19:24:06-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180325 19:27:22-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180325 19:39:24< zookeeper> "points me to the campaigns main.cfg" probably not. 20180325 19:39:35< zookeeper> you might be reading the error trace backwards. 20180325 19:47:50<+discordbot4> hey greenghost, I'm here too. The problem could be that 'k' at the beginning 20180325 19:57:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 19:57:47-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 20:04:17-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 20:51:36<+discordbot4> oh hey, it's skeptical_troll 20180325 20:53:28<+discordbot4> (I'm assuming it's the same s_t who worked on the Dunefolk description) 20180325 20:59:30<+discordbot4> It's me indeed, hi Vultraz! 20180325 21:07:50<+discordbot4> oh, hey skeptical_troll! 20180325 21:08:41<+discordbot4> Hi Inky, I'm glad to see you're back on music again! At some point we must resume the Wesnoth Minstrels Band 20180325 21:08:57<+discordbot4> and become rich and famous, of course 20180325 21:09:07<+discordbot4> haha yes :D 20180325 21:13:57-!- deekay [~deekayish@77-254-147-144.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 21:17:29<+discordbot4> @skeptical_troll nice work on that dunefolk descrip, btw. I didn't need to change much content-wise in my edits 20180325 21:21:49-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-91-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: I'm not back now.] 20180325 21:23:16<+discordbot4> Glad to be useful! Thanks for improving upon it, it reads very well now. 20180325 21:29:16<+discordbot4> is there any way to add onto something you did command wise? it's not a good way of saying it. so I'll simply give examples. basically, I am wondering if I can add gold rather then setting it. lua wesnoth.wml_actions.modify_side({side=2, gold=500}) 20180325 21:32:21< Ravana_> I suggest adding Lua function that when called executes your local Lua file, there you can put multiple lines at once too 20180325 21:33:04<+discordbot4> fair enough. 20180325 21:34:34< Ravana_> those examples are possible, would just take checking wml reference to find specifics 20180325 21:35:28<+discordbot4> but yeahhh.... extra recruit wise, I simply made it too big. I made a grand marshal and thought I'd make it recruit many human units between levels 1-3. almost got them all, hence why this problem occured and I was wondering if you can add onto the list. 20180325 21:53:27< celticminstrel> Come to think of it, [modify_unit] supports a $this_unit variable for that sort of thing. Why doesn't [modify_side] have something similar? 20180325 21:53:37< vn971> Voidwarrior side[1].gold = side[1].gold + 10 20180325 21:54:05< celticminstrel> That said, using wesnoth.wml_actions isn't the best choice when you're writing Lua. 20180325 21:55:42< vn971> celticminstrel: _sometimes_ not the best. 1/10 of the code I personally write still uses wml_actions, and I don't even see a problem with that if these are simple calls that don't leak WML specifics (think a flat table). 20180325 21:57:13< celticminstrel> There are some wml_actions that don't have a native equivalent yet, yeah. 20180325 21:58:28< vn971> celticminstrel: would it be good to have any alternative to, say, [item]? Or are Lua developers unhappy writing wml_actions.redraw {} ? 20180325 21:58:54< celticminstrel> There is a native Lua version of [item]. 20180325 22:00:45< vn971> celticminstrel: TBH I don't see any big advantage in duplicating this. Consequent arguments aren't really that good. For example, said "Lua-ish" [item] alternative doesn't allow you specifying team_name. But the classical [item] does. 20180325 22:02:21< vn971> Just putting arguments that were stored in a table as comma-separated function parameters never makes much sense to me when I'm writing Lua (and I tend to think I'm writing good maintainable code). 20180325 22:19:14-!- deekay [~deekayish@77-254-147-144.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180325 22:37:31< hk238> hmm I just thought about an add-on that might be succesful 20180325 22:38:10< hk238> basically create a 'character creator' scenario which players could use to generate their character, such as visit shops and trainers and so on 20180325 22:38:29< hk238> the idea would simply be to make character creation decisions in the scenario, then you could save the character as a string 20180325 22:39:11< hk238> then the characters would be used to play in colosseum type setting, such as 3 player free for all or two player duel or team game 20180325 22:39:29< hk238> in the setting there would be no recruiting, just using the generated characters 20180325 22:39:57< hk238> and then add some right click menu elements for spells and ranged abilities 20180325 22:40:42< hk238> and it could serve as a reasonable platform for playing casual or competitive games.. Although competitive element itself might be detrimental too, as I think was pointed out in the forums in some FAQ section 20180325 22:40:59< hk238> but it could still be nice to have like 2vs2 player games 20180325 22:41:26< hk238> the character generator system would be relevant so players could just input the string of characters and not much time would required for the creation itself at the beginning of each game 20180325 22:41:37< hk238> being limited to only 1 movable character would also shorten the games 20180325 22:41:45< Ravana_> providing powerup to player requires equivalent powerup to enemy 20180325 22:42:01< hk238> what do you mean? :o 20180325 22:42:20< hk238> or is that a response to something earlier? 20180325 22:42:23< Ravana_> it is not interesting to watch games without any challenge 20180325 22:43:18< hk238> the intention isn't that playing the character generator would give additional benefits, more like a one time only thing 20180325 22:43:37< hk238> except perhaps for tweaking earlier decisions to generate a new string 20180325 22:44:38< hk238> I think that would probably be a succesful addon, depending mostly on whether or not the character creation process would be interesting enough 20180325 22:45:02< hk238> having a focus on team games would also provide some prosocial elements such as healing spells and so on. Like you have in many mmorpgs for an example 20180325 22:46:14< Ravana_> by giving player access to healing, you increase his power. So something needs to compensate that 20180325 22:47:29< hk238> the intention is that each participant would use the character creator scenario to provide a string which is essentially a way to save their character, then they would participate in a 2vs2 game for an example, and at the beginning of the game they would load the saved character. So each player has their own benefits that they have decided on when trying the generator. Perhaps this resolves 20180325 22:47:33< hk238> possible misunderstandings? : ) 20180325 22:48:23< Ravana_> right, in pvp context this might be interesting 20180325 22:48:42< hk238> yeah I think so too 20180325 22:48:53< hk238> at least personally I think I'd like to play that kind of thing 20180325 22:49:34< hk238> and you could default to playing the games without fog of war so there's not so much need to worry about people looking at saved games, or maybe think of a way to prevent saving the game to prevent that 20180325 22:50:32< hk238> although for interesting games there would need to be some terrain interaction or some reason for people to move about, so it's not just that everyone occupies some castle hex until the end of time 20180325 22:51:10< hk238> and I guess that requires thinking about player - environment interactions 20180325 22:52:38< hk238> and one problem to consider then is to make the system so that the string can not be edited to allow characters outside the scope of the normal creation process :d 20180325 22:53:20< hk238> and one possible way to do that is to simply store the creation process actions as a sequence, and re-generate the character using the instructions. That way the same rules would apply :o 20180325 22:57:05-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180325 22:57:08< hk238> well I guess there's a lot of things to consider, the mod could also be uploaded to github and have players develop it along the way. Although by mod I mean juts a regular wesnoth addon consisting of a) character creation system, with ranged abilities and such b) scenario that contains a character generator c) some set of player - environment interaction scripts d) and a set of maps for those 20180325 22:58:56< hk238> maybe also co-op scenarios why not those are most prosocial 20180325 23:01:05< hk238> meanwhile I was also thinking that for some campaigns it would be possible to create dimensions to measure player style to use for storyline development 20180325 23:01:57< hk238> such as if the player makes evil decisions, then there's some score like 'evil' that you could calculate. Although that's very simple. Also relationships between factions, like in scenario X player helped the elves, therefore player is in good relations with elves 20180325 23:02:09< hk238> although now that I think about it, that has been done in some campaign, hasn't it? :o 20180325 23:03:02< hk238> then it could serve as a method to increase replayability of some campaign, 20180325 23:03:39< hk238> for an example if the player is evil, then they can recruit a bunch of undead, if they're doing good deeds, like saving peasants from trouble, then instead some white mages might join their efforts 20180325 23:03:59-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p4FC53D61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 23:04:15< hk238> having different selection of characters or units to play the campaign with is fairly easy to provide some parallel storylines, as it doesn't require making a new set of scenarios 20180325 23:05:00< hk238> also could do something like if player helped to save the dwarves, then in some scenario X the dwarves join the player as an ally, or similar 20180325 23:06:30< hk238> or maybe even some entirely narrative decisions like, one of the players characters was acquainted with some princess of some realm, and then they send some page as a messenger to join the player's campaign with some treasure as a gift 20180325 23:06:30< hk238> :D 20180325 23:07:05< hk238> fairly easy to incorporate and yet could make campaigns more interesting. So for an example if the character that has such a narrative function, perishes, then something else happens 20180325 23:07:19< Ravana_> I know basically nothing about campaigns, those aren't observable 20180325 23:07:43< hk238> :o 20180325 23:07:52< hk238> you don't play campaigns? Or have not ? 20180325 23:08:21<+discordbot4> done in elvish dynasty 20180325 23:08:35<+discordbot4> kind of 20180325 23:08:52<+discordbot4> but its just a score 20180325 23:11:17< hk238> also I was thinknig about describing campaign elements as flowcharts 20180325 23:11:41< hk238> but instead of creating one big flowchart, you can create multiple parallel flowcharts, and only join them if they're logically connected 20180325 23:12:08< hk238> trying to put all possibilities into a single flowchart would not be effective 20180325 23:12:30< hk238> due to all kinds of problems like restrictions from graph theory :D 20180325 23:13:52< Ravana_> I play TLU after there are huge changes, but not really anything else 20180325 23:15:32< hk238> TLU? :o 20180325 23:16:02< hk238> The Legend of U.. 20180325 23:16:05< hk238> :D 20180325 23:16:43< Ravana_> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=31799 20180325 23:17:00< hk238> oh right I think I have tried this one 20180325 23:19:48< hk238> it would be interesting to design the character creation system for those rpg instances I'd like to draw some influences from a bunch of games like adom, shadowbane, mtg and the like 20180325 23:20:23< hk238> I could also design a system where players would have genuinely unique characters, so that for an example there would be 10⁶ different characters to make or similar :D 20180325 23:21:12< hk238> where the 10 has a unicode superscript 6 in the event that it says just "10 different characters" it's due to unicode not showing... that would ironic.. :) 20180325 23:23:53< hk238> I was thinking a system like race x baseclass x advancement class x non-restricted additional class similar to legacy system in loti but less influential x and some interclass choices 20180325 23:24:15< hk238> and for each advancement class some subclass branches like 1 out 2 or 3 20180325 23:25:01< hk238> so for an example you could choose a human, elf, dwarf, troll, wose, naga, undead.. 7 different choies 20180325 23:26:33< hk238> then you could choose a baseclass, such as, healer, mage, cleric, fighter, rogue, psionicist, which would be 6 different choices 20180325 23:27:59< hk238> then let's say you could choose one out of 10 classes, like wizard, elementalist, druid, priest, shaman, warrior, thief, knight, paladin, archer 20180325 23:28:42< hk238> then you could choose a religion, out of say 4 choices, like atheist, good deity, bad deity, neutral deity, nature deity, which would be 5 20180325 23:29:50< hk238> and then you could choose the heritage (legacy system) that would grant some ability or benefit that is available to essentially all other combinations regardless of race etc 20180325 23:29:52-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180325 23:30:02< hk238> so let's say there's 3 choices for that or possibly more if they're very minor 20180325 23:30:05-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth 20180325 23:31:11< hk238> and right then for of the 10 advancement classes there's a subbranch to choose, so there's 2 or 3 subbranches, which like restrict which main ability or secondary ability is available 20180325 23:31:40-!- Grickit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20180325 23:31:41< hk238> and then there would be a set of 20 or so interclasses, which of the player could choose 3 out of 20180325 23:32:48< hk238> so then that would be 7*6*10*2*5*3*20*19*18 a total 86 million different combinations 20180325 23:33:33< hk238> and on top of that you could throw a choice of weapon and also have the player decide how much they train each ability, which blessings they want from their deity (depending on which deity is available by choice of religion) 20180325 23:33:55< hk238> essentially the point would be that if you create a character, then no one else has the same character 20180325 23:34:21< hk238> so it won't be like in MMORPGs that you have normally out there, where basically each player has a character that 2% of the playerbase also has 20180325 23:34:41< hk238> of course there will still be similarities, but it would be complex 20180325 23:35:09< hk238> the main trick for providing this complexity is simply to choose each master variable and then look at interactions between the other choices in a bilateral fashion 20180325 23:35:43< hk238> so for an example if you choose a good deity, then if you also chose fighter.. then how does having chosen fighter restrict your choices within the deity world? or how does the deity choice restrict your fighter choices? 20180325 23:36:01< hk238> because the number of combinations is too high you can't consider the total effects 20180325 23:36:21< hk238> doing it would also be necessary to prevent the system from reducing to noise, as in to preserve complexity 20180325 23:36:37< hk238> and that part requires most of the work because 20180325 23:36:48< hk238> there's more bilateral considerations than there are choices 20180325 23:37:01< hk238> but it's still a lot less than trying to look at 3 combinations of any type at once 20180325 23:38:19< hk238> well maybe I'll get around to trying that but for now it's just a thought 20180325 23:38:33< zookeeper> good luck coming up with meaningful gameplay effects for all those dozens of choices you get to make. 20180325 23:38:46< hk238> zookeeper actually I already thought about that 20180325 23:39:04< hk238> also one of the issues I've been raising quite often is abilities that increase gameplay complexity 20180325 23:39:12< hk238> and well I know how to do that 20180325 23:39:13< hk238> :D 20180325 23:40:39< hk238> however it's a good point I can't argue with it 20180325 23:40:57< hk238> the current wesnoth system isn't complex enough for that, but it doesn't require all that much to change 20180325 23:41:23< hk238> but still it's necessary to create some additional dimensions inside which these differences can occur 20180325 23:41:32< hk238> but for now I think it's not a huge amount of changes 20180325 23:41:54< hk238> also there's plenty of things that have already been done in different addons on the add-on server 20180325 23:42:02< hk238> such as absorb in LotI 20180325 23:42:29< hk238> although that would need a little bit of tweaking 20180325 23:42:45< zookeeper> as long as archer means you have a bow, wizard means you have a magic missile, cleric means you get a healing ability and shaman means you get entangle then sure, you can have meaningful choices, but what you end up with will probably feel like a mashup character generator and suddenly your units won't feel very special when used side-by-side with the standard units that all those traits come 20180325 23:42:45< zookeeper> from. 20180325 23:43:25< hk238> you're totally right about that, it's essential to preserve the character and feel of each choice so that there are meaningful differences between them 20180325 23:43:34< hk238> and yet to provide the player sufficient choice within those 20180325 23:43:59< hk238> the most important aspect is blocking, if you have all choices available for all combinations, then it juts reduces to noise. Such as 'classless character creation' 20180325 23:44:11< hk238> like in.. darkfall I think it has that kind of thing 20180325 23:44:51< hk238> it doesn't work because players can analyze the system as classless, then they can easily extract the most meaningful interactions, and the analysis reduces the system into a very simple class trees which have lots of background noise 20180325 23:45:25< hk238> but if you impose blocking restrictions then you can preserve complexity, as a large percentage of the most meaningful interactions are not there 20180325 23:45:34< hk238> which then leaves a larger number of meaningful interactions 20180325 23:46:04< hk238> mathematically it's sort of the same as.. there's more ways to draw 3 cards out of 7 than there's ways to draw 6 cards out of 7 20180325 23:47:15< hk238> I need to take a shower.. 20180325 23:51:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] --- Log closed Mon Mar 26 00:00:15 2018