--- Log opened Sat Apr 28 00:00:40 2018
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20180428 05:19:46< vn971> Ravana_: BTW, do you know of any good way to query changes relatively often? Like with unit renames discussed previously, any good way to do that?
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20180428 15:46:02< vn971> Ravana_: I've tried the "unit rename" approach together with Choicerer. I think it doesn't work, and probably will not work. The code that lets you rename a unit resides in CPP. There is no Lua API for unit rename it seems.
20180428 15:48:07< Ravana_> yes, I said so
20180428 15:48:21< Ravana_> you need to create n^2 dummy units
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20180428 15:48:56< Choicerer> hi
20180428 15:49:05< vn971> Choicerer: hi, see you.
20180428 15:49:47< vn971> Ravana_: but how would you rename those units? There is no Lua API call to rename a unit.
20180428 15:50:07< Ravana_> by having player write his message to unit name manually
20180428 15:50:09< vn971> Ravana_: the renaming you use with a mouse is actually a "add_rename" command which lives in CPP>
20180428 15:50:13< Choicerer> essentially, the problem we're dealing with is. anything we call from a select event will NOT be synced
20180428 15:50:17< vn971> Ravana_: ah...
20180428 15:50:30< Choicerer> the problem is you can't rename units if it's not your turn
20180428 15:50:38< Choicerer> so the point is defeated again
20180428 15:50:41< vn971> Ravana_: so it's not possible to e.g. ask user a number, store it in some form and send it automatically?
20180428 15:50:43< Ravana_> with 1.14 I could
20180428 15:51:35< Choicerer> yes, you can
20180428 15:51:37< Choicerer> got it
20180428 15:51:42< Choicerer> that syncs all right]
20180428 15:51:52< Choicerer> so it can work, clumsy though
20180428 15:51:57< Choicerer> and not private
20180428 15:52:11< Choicerer> well it, could be
20180428 15:52:14< vn971> Ravana_: so the approach you had in mind is for the user to manually rename units, right?
20180428 15:52:15< Choicerer> if we can hide the unit from other players
20180428 15:52:19< Ravana_> yes
20180428 15:52:34< Choicerer> this does work, but is clumsy
20180428 15:52:41< vn971> Ravana_: clear. We definitely need to request a Lua API then. (I hope I will, a bit later.)
20180428 15:53:38< vn971> Choicerer: actually I'm not even sure how it would really work since the receiving sides may miss a unit rename too.. Gotta check unit for renames often enough.
20180428 15:53:39< Choicerer> It still could be done, I believe
20180428 15:53:45< Choicerer> they don't
20180428 15:53:59< Choicerer> yes, essentially via a lua theme items timer or something
20180428 15:54:17< Choicerer> you can also change lua theme items for that rename option to say a different thing for one particular unit
20180428 15:54:25< Choicerer> still, clumsy.
20180428 15:55:31< vn971> since 1.14 is feature-frozen now, the best date we can realistically hope to have the new feature is somewhere in next-next stable release.
20180428 15:55:39< vn971> like 1.16
20180428 15:55:54< Choicerer> but wait, a renaming api in lua?
20180428 15:56:14< Ravana_> I don't think this can be done without changing network protocol
20180428 15:56:42< Ravana_> not renaming, for any wml object transfer
20180428 15:56:44< Choicerer> what you mean is a synced renaming function for lua?
20180428 15:57:03< Choicerer> what we really need is some sort of synced event
20180428 15:57:09< Choicerer> that can be fired at any time by anyone
20180428 15:57:30< Choicerer> and that would need to be implemented in later versions
20180428 15:57:49< Choicerer> what would also be nice is an event to intercept certain hotkeys instead of selecting units
20180428 15:57:51< Ravana_> if it can be fired at any time by anyone then it is not synced
20180428 15:57:57< Choicerer> why not?
20180428 15:57:58< Ravana_> it would cause race condition
20180428 15:58:03< Choicerer> what?
20180428 15:58:38< Choicerer> i don't know what that is, but i don't see a reason why it couldn't be implemented/
20180428 15:58:39< Choicerer> ?
20180428 15:59:24< Choicerer> it's just a functionality 
20180428 15:59:34< Choicerer> plenty of things like that are synced in a number of games
20180428 15:59:39< Choicerer> well, a lot of games
20180428 16:00:22< Choicerer> it's just taking the functionality of say the chat system which is synced an creating an event after this fashion
20180428 16:00:59< Ravana_> chat system is not synced
20180428 16:01:14< Choicerer> how can't it be synced?
20180428 16:01:24< Choicerer> if i can see the messages other people send?
20180428 16:01:51< Ravana_> messages order is not stable
20180428 16:02:10< Choicerer> umm, I'm not sure I understand.
20180428 16:02:24< Choicerer> maybe I don't quite understand what synched means, but If I understand correctly
20180428 16:02:29< Ravana_> you can send messages when you are behind in replay
20180428 16:02:36< Choicerer> it's sending a gamestatte
20180428 16:02:46< Ravana_> so different clients will see messages in different order
20180428 16:02:49< Choicerer> okay, but that gamestate will be end to other clients
20180428 16:02:59< Choicerer> sent*
20180428 16:03:25< Choicerer> so maybe not synched, but just sending those packets to other clients
20180428 16:03:33< Choicerer> i guess
20180428 16:04:48< Choicerer> since the problem is there is no way to send any gamestate to clients outside of the synched events
20180428 16:05:10< Ravana_> that was part of the discussion 24h ago in wesnoth-dev
20180428 16:05:12< Choicerer> what I think would be nice is some sort of functionality to be able to send gamestate using certain keys
20180428 16:05:17< Choicerer> oh
20180428 16:07:13< Ravana_> sending gamestate doesn't seem doable, otherwise oos wouldn't exist
20180428 16:09:39< Choicerer> well.
20180428 16:10:36< Choicerer> I understand what you mean is one could seriously get the game oos by using those events
20180428 16:10:49< Choicerer> However there already are ways to do this.
20180428 16:11:14< Choicerer> Another idea is some sort of tagh
20180428 16:11:46< Choicerer> so you can for one client to sync gamestate with other clients regardless of the event it's fired from
20180428 16:12:22< Choicerer> 1.13 has [sync_variable], but it won't work if called from a select event
20180428 16:12:45< Ravana_> gamestate changes are only allowed from currently active side
20180428 16:13:32< Choicerer> yes. clearly if one wanted to implement that, this would have to be changed.
20180428 16:13:52< Ravana_> not really
20180428 16:13:54< Choicerer> since the whole premise is changing gamestate 
20180428 16:13:56< Choicerer> hm?
20180428 16:14:09< Ravana_> did you read yesterdays log
20180428 16:14:21< Choicerer> you mean the dev log?
20180428 16:14:28< Choicerer> wesnoth-dev?
20180428 16:14:37< Ravana_> yes
20180428 16:14:41< Choicerer> i haven't yet, no
20180428 16:14:59< Ravana_> oos issue was raised
20180428 16:15:12< Choicerer> hm
20180428 16:15:52< Choicerer> but, I don't see how you can't not change gamestate if you want to code an add-on that can send messages from an inactive client to other clients
20180428 16:16:07< Choicerer> it involves  sending strings
20180428 16:16:22< Choicerer> so setting variables to some value in other clients 
20180428 16:17:02< Choicerer> since I'm thinking add-ons
20180428 16:17:07< Choicerer> not actual game code
20180428 16:18:15< Choicerer> anyway, wouldn't you say a unit name is gamestate as well?
20180428 16:18:28< Ravana_> it is
20180428 16:18:41< Choicerer> well, then as you have shown me, it can already be done for a non-active client
20180428 16:19:00< Choicerer> in that a non-active side can rename their own unit
20180428 16:19:01< Ravana_> 2018-04-27 18:44:36,045 - CON rec - DEBUG - b'[turn]\n\t[command]\n\t\tasync=yes\n\t\t[rename]\n\t\t\tname="Ravana____"\n\t\t\tx=2\n\t\t\ty=1\n\t\t[/ren
20180428 16:19:10< Ravana_> such string is received
20180428 16:19:27< Choicerer> hm
20180428 16:20:02< Choicerer> well, i feel tempted to use your way and code this mod for 1.14
20180428 16:20:09< Choicerer> since i've already set my mind on it
20180428 16:20:54< Choicerer> though maybe it wouldn't be very useful because of the clumsiness
20180428 16:22:04< Ravana_> it is possible that you wouldn't need to do anything more than provide units with suitable hiding filter, then they would function as shared memory
20180428 16:27:05< vn971> Ravana_: actually an an unsynched event could pull up the desired unit at your request.
20180428 16:27:38< Ravana_> I find it unlikely that would work then
20180428 16:27:43< vn971> Ravana_: so no need to hide even (if you want)
20180428 16:28:11< Choicerer> a hiding filter, but then how is it accessed?
20180428 16:28:14< vn971> Ravana_: why not? Move units out of map unsync-ed, that's all.
20180428 16:28:38< Choicerer> it would need to occupy some corner hex, I guess
20180428 16:28:41< vn971> Ravana_: units will still exist, so it'd be possible to check name updates.
20180428 16:28:47< Choicerer> and have some fancy icon
20180428 16:28:55< Choicerer> hmmm
20180428 16:29:00< Choicerer> pull up?
20180428 16:29:10< Ravana_> if unit only exists on one client, others can't understand what should be renamed
20180428 16:29:20< vn971> Ravana_: all units exists on all clients.
20180428 16:29:31< Choicerer> what do you mean by pull up?
20180428 16:29:40< vn971> Ravana_: but which ones are standing on which hexes is private and de-synched.
20180428 16:30:00< Ravana_> as you saw rename works by location
20180428 16:30:15< vn971> Ravana_: ah, oops..
20180428 16:30:24< vn971> Ravana_: see your point.
20180428 16:30:26< Choicerer> what is the idea?
20180428 16:30:37< Choicerer> I don't understand. Do you mean remove unit from the map?
20180428 16:30:38< vn971> Choicerer: nevermind then. It won't work, as Ravana_ pointed out.
20180428 16:30:44< Choicerer> are we certain, though?
20180428 16:30:47< vn971> Choicerer: yes, that was my plan.
20180428 16:30:57< vn971> Choicerer: Ravana convinced me at least.
20180428 16:31:11< Choicerer> i still don't understand your idea entirely
20180428 16:31:28< Choicerer> can you please explain
20180428 16:33:06< vn971> Choicerer: the idea that I had in mind os to create N^2 units, but remove them from map and add back based on the person you'd want to talk to. So that a unit will show up on your map specific to the person you want to write a message to.
20180428 16:33:33< Choicerer> i see
20180428 16:33:48< Choicerer> by the way, in 1.14 you can whisper people in-game :D?
20180428 16:33:56< vn971> Choicerer: the reason why it doesn't work is that rename happens by specifying "location". IDK, it seems extremely weird, but I saw it in sources just as Ravana did.
20180428 16:34:10< Choicerer> hm
20180428 16:34:15< vn971> Choicerer: IDK. I wanted to do other stuff besides chatting anyway.
20180428 16:34:24< Choicerer> not what I mean
20180428 16:34:33< Choicerer> I mean I can whisper my other client anyway
20180428 16:35:40< Choicerer> yes
20180428 16:35:49< Choicerer> well, I don't know if it's the dev version
20180428 16:36:02< Choicerer> Cause I'm not getting the warning about having the same IP
20180428 16:36:23< Choicerer> however, in 1.12 you can't whisper to other people in your game, in 1.13.12, you sure can
20180428 16:37:54< Ravana_> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/8acbc3878ddfdfb538de6ee32a5111ab900b53b7
20180428 16:40:10< Ravana_> if that only changed it for observers, then I expect it will be changed again in 1.14.1
20180428 16:41:18< Ravana_> if someone brings it to loonycyborg attention at least
20180428 16:42:24< loonycyborg> attention to what?
20180428 16:43:05< Ravana_> that 1.14.0 allows players whisper to each other
20180428 16:43:39< loonycyborg> well I recently committed this change
20180428 16:43:49< loonycyborg> I guess need to rebuild server too
20180428 16:44:20< loonycyborg> whispers between players will be forbidden next time I'll get around to rebuilding server
20180428 16:46:18< Choicerer> okay
20180428 16:58:23< Choicerer> Hm, I guess the most important question is why are you doing that?
20180428 16:58:49< Choicerer> Cause it actually is a bit pointless to be coding an add-on that in a very roundabout way enables that very thing.
20180428 17:02:09< Ravana_> because that is how it worked with 1.12, and there has not been enough discussion to change it https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1540
20180428 17:04:12< Choicerer> Yeah. Well, to me it's a bit pointless, regardless if it's observers to players or players to players.
20180428 17:04:34< Choicerer> And the block can be bypassed anyway, by logging in with another account and PMing from the lobby.
20180428 17:05:01< Choicerer> Which I'm forced to do, anyway, any time I'm playing an ffa-like game where I'm making alliances.
20180428 17:08:23< Ravana_> so comment there, and ask others to comment
20180428 17:09:01< Choicerer> Hm I might then.
20180428 17:09:49< Ravana_> could post to forum too if that would be easier for those you play with
20180428 17:12:25< Choicerer> Well, I haven't asked anyone I play with about their opinion on this.
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 29 00:00:42 2018