--- Log opened Sun May 06 00:00:05 2018 20180506 00:00:24<+discordbot> this would mean that over a short scenario in An Orcish Incursion (the second one or the third I think) there were 288 attacks performed, which is quite a lot more than 100 in a fairly small map and only 1v1 20180506 00:01:20<+discordbot> so the numbers that I've given earlier are still more 'chaotic' than what could be reasonably expected even over a short scenario 20180506 00:01:57-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180506 00:02:26<+discordbot> I'll repeat the simulation 10 000 times for 200 rolls 0-10 and finally go to sleep I guess 20180506 00:04:59<+discordbot> the variance is too high? 20180506 00:05:30<+discordbot> yep, that too 20180506 00:06:30<+discordbot> I guess the problem is not just the variance but the local proximity of similar values 20180506 00:07:01<+discordbot> Things like getting a 1 five times in a row 20180506 00:07:27<+discordbot> right, that's common for true RNG 20180506 00:07:28<+discordbot> that causes frustration for sure 20180506 00:07:39<+discordbot> but maybe not ideal for gameplay purposes 20180506 00:08:03<+discordbot> but rn I am checking out the idea of having the same 'roll lists' for both players 20180506 00:08:10<+discordbot> i.e. if that really matters or not 20180506 00:08:46-!- Marcgal [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:3c0a:d2b7:b828:b929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180506 00:08:59<+discordbot> i mean if you get two bad rolls, one good, one bad, one normal then the enemy will also get the same rolls, just ordered differently 20180506 00:09:19<+discordbot> The thing is that the order matters a lot 20180506 00:09:23<+discordbot> ik 20180506 00:09:34<+discordbot> the other thing is that if you have a set of 4 rolls 20180506 00:09:38<+discordbot> and you have a unit that has 2 attacks 20180506 00:09:41<+discordbot> if it misses both 20180506 00:09:46<+discordbot> then you know you have one good and one normal one left 20180506 00:09:52<+discordbot> yeah, that too 20180506 00:10:01<+discordbot> so you can't go too far with that equality 20180506 00:10:20<+discordbot> that's why they'd need to be reorganised and idk, in batches of 100? 20180506 00:10:59<+discordbot> i.e. roll 100 numbers once, mix their order for both players, assign those two copies to players, let them use them 20180506 00:11:23<+discordbot> once one uses up his pool, roll another 100, mix the order, add to both queues 20180506 00:11:59<+discordbot> then if the 'faster rolling' player gets worse (or better) rolls at the end of the game, the other one won't get to them 20180506 00:12:20<+discordbot> but eh, I don't have any better ideas how not to make it quirky like Yumi said or in a hundred other ways 20180506 00:13:01<+discordbot> anyway, for 200 rolls of 0-10 50% of the time youd get more than ~973 and less than ~1027 20180506 00:14:11<+discordbot> the very unlucky/unlucky/lucky/very lucky (1% of the time, 5% of the time, 5%, 1%) thresholds would be around 906, 933, 1069 and 1096 20180506 00:15:02<+discordbot> that's assuming there would be 200 rolls in a game while I had 288 in a sample, small 1v1 scenario; the more rolls you get, the more it smooths out 20180506 00:18:13<+discordbot> (smooths out = the closer 50% of the time thresholds would relatively be to the average expect total value of all rolls, like with 100 rolls it was +/-9.5%, with 200 rolls it's only +/-2.7%) 20180506 00:20:53<+discordbot> (or 90% of the time you would get 500 +/-19% with 100 rolls and 1000 +/-14% with 200 rolls) 20180506 00:21:55<+discordbot> so yeah, these are the numbers, idk if that's fair enough and can be left as is or not 20180506 00:22:50<+discordbot> you're talking about a campaign scenario, but consider that in MP 20180506 00:22:55<+discordbot> 100 rolls already feels like a lot 20180506 00:24:41<+discordbot> but the more 'just' you try to get it, the weirder it becomes, if the order of the rolls and the rolls themselves were to be exactly the same, then if you had a higher chance to hit than the enemy that just hit you, you would be 100% sure you will hit your next attack, because you know you get the same roll and if that was good enough for the enemy, so it will be for you 20180506 00:25:24<+discordbot> of course it would desync with units having different numbers of attacks, but still you could keep track of it, at least in theory 20180506 00:25:28< celticminstrel> Is this discussion about trying to prove bias in the RNG or something else? 20180506 00:26:03<+discordbot> it's about trying to introduce bias into RNG, but one that would not screw everything up 20180506 00:26:26< celticminstrel> Ah... 20180506 00:26:41<+discordbot> because there was this argument that someone may get better rolls than someone else, so maybe they should get the same rolls 20180506 00:26:59<+discordbot> that's not an argument 20180506 00:27:07<+discordbot> in the short term, someone will get better rolls 20180506 00:27:18<+discordbot> and all those % I've given were trying to answer the question whether that really matters (in the longer run) 20180506 00:27:19<+discordbot> in the current system 20180506 00:27:47<+discordbot> and now we're trying to figure out how to bias the rng while not making it awkward in some way 20180506 00:28:35<+discordbot> (by bias I mean how to make it 'just', i.e. eliminate the 'someone is more lucky than the other one') 20180506 00:28:43<+discordbot> (at least to an extent) 20180506 00:29:53<+discordbot> because it is of course self contradictory, either you have fair random rolls, but no outcome equality, at least in the short run, or you have rolls equality, but severe the randomeness, quite seriously 20180506 00:30:14<+discordbot> ....tbh a random distribution of the same rolls for each player wouldn't do the trick anyway; the random factor comes with what RN is assigned to what success threshhold, and you're basically back at square 1 with a more complex system πŸ€” 20180506 00:30:46<+discordbot> not really if you bring all the rolls to a sort of 1-10 or 1-100 range 20180506 00:31:09<+discordbot> then higher roll is better and will be enough to hit despite a higher threshold 20180506 00:31:34<+discordbot> But if you get a better success threshold is because you have a tactical advantage 20180506 00:31:44<+discordbot> yes 20180506 00:31:46<+discordbot> The idra is making it less lucky 20180506 00:31:59<+discordbot> Not making both the same success 20180506 00:32:08<+discordbot> so even if you have the same rolls, one may hit, the other may fail 20180506 00:32:09<+discordbot> Idea* 20180506 00:32:19<+discordbot> well, yes 20180506 00:33:02<+discordbot> but tactical advantage aka terrain usage is what you have control over to a pretty high degree and can be considered skillful 20180506 00:33:45<+discordbot> so you get the drift, you might use the chances you get differently, but those would be the same (or roughly the same) chances as your enemy 20180506 00:34:48<+discordbot> imagine you rolled the dice only once in backgammon, both for you and the enemy at the same time 20180506 00:35:16<+discordbot> you might use those rolls differently, but you have the same rolls (also you have pretty much killed the point of backgammon probably) 20180506 00:36:05<+discordbot> yes, thats what i meant, less lucky, not just making both have same success rate 20180506 00:36:54<+discordbot> great, I got yet another person into a discussion about vaguely understood statistics while it's 2:36AM and I should definitely go to bed :D 20180506 00:37:42<+discordbot> lol, good night 20180506 00:38:53<+discordbot> not until I prove my point, can't go to sleep while someone on the internet doesn't know and understand my point! 20180506 00:38:59<+discordbot> lol 20180506 00:39:18<+discordbot> which is unfortunate because at this point I'm not exactly sure what my point even is 20180506 00:39:21<+discordbot> I think we are making the same point 20180506 00:40:28<+discordbot> I believe you were trying to use data to determine how much variance would be likely to happen within the span of a full game 20180506 00:41:20<+discordbot> And from there make a determination as to whether it would even matter if both sides got the same RNs or some other system aimed at the same perceived problem 20180506 00:41:22<+discordbot> ah, yes, because I don't remember the formulas for sum of multiple uniform distributions into normal distribution parameters 20180506 00:41:33<+discordbot> so I just lamely brute forced it monte carlo way 20180506 00:42:01<+discordbot> (seriously the formulas are one-liners but I don't remember them) 20180506 00:42:30<+discordbot> I'd suggest you look it up but I know exactly how it is being tired lol 20180506 00:43:14<+discordbot> I'm not even sure how to google for it right now 20180506 00:44:57<+discordbot> Like I said, I know how it is 20180506 00:46:38<+discordbot> glad we got that sorted out... 20180506 00:46:50<+discordbot> but they don't get my point on another discord, though... 20180506 00:47:15<+discordbot> oooooof course 20180506 00:47:36<+discordbot> you never did actually render a determination, though 20180506 00:50:58<+discordbot> hey, we're talking about blender on the other one 20180506 00:52:04<+discordbot> and that's relevant because I used the word "render"? 20180506 00:52:21<+discordbot> yes 20180506 00:52:42<+discordbot> even though it's the 'will it blend' blender, not the 'render' blender 20180506 00:52:48<+discordbot> but close enough I guess 20180506 00:52:55<+discordbot> Blenders can render things 20180506 00:53:01<+discordbot> just uh, mostly to liquid or paste form 20180506 00:54:01<+discordbot> in many cases render them useless 20180506 00:58:37<+discordbot> ok, I'm free to go at last~! 20180506 03:25:36-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20180506 03:33:15-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 03:42:46<+discordbot> I don’t to Twitter, but: https://twitter.com/WeltenbruchYT/status/992962684529401856 20180506 03:46:24<+discordbot> His last contribution was on October 9 2009. 20180506 04:40:44-!- discordbot2 [~discordbo@baldras.wesnoth.org] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 04:40:44-!- mode/#wesnoth [+v discordbot2] by ChanServ 20180506 04:41:10-!- discordbot [~discordbo@baldras.wesnoth.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180506 05:06:07-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 05:18:57-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180506 05:23:16-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 05:24:43-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-8477-B69E-5A09-4110.dyn6.twc.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 05:57:19<+discordbot2> http://shadowm.ai0867.net/blog/archives/61-Wesnoth-Evolution-An-interview-with-Dave.html 20180506 05:57:26<+discordbot2> looks pretty neat, kind of a tangent though :3 20180506 06:33:02-!- celmin|sleep [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180506 06:34:34-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 06:36:19<+discordbot2> It was a bit of a shock to see what Wesnoth 0.1 looked like when I first read the blog the preceded it though. 20180506 06:36:23<+discordbot2> http://shadowm.ai0867.net/images/d/wesnoth-stoneage/v1-main.png 20180506 06:36:48<+discordbot2> how far things have come 20180506 06:36:49<+discordbot2> xD 20180506 07:19:47<+discordbot2> Fun fact: Wesnoth's main design principle is based off a principle called KISS 20180506 07:19:51<+discordbot2> Ooh la la XD 20180506 07:20:33<+discordbot2> 😘 20180506 07:21:08<+discordbot2> that hp bar though 20180506 07:37:18<+discordbot2> I know right... Full of energy OrO 20180506 07:55:44-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 20180506 07:56:06-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p4FC53504.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 07:56:06-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p4FC53504.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180506 07:56:06-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 08:06:40-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 08:17:53-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 08:18:02< hk238> hello :) 20180506 08:21:09< lipkab> Hi. 20180506 09:31:15-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 09:36:23< janebot> wesnoth: Wesnoth Basics (by /u/Goritude) https://redd.it/8he6ql 20180506 09:52:27<+discordbot2> @Vultraz How to beat NR's lv5? 20180506 09:52:38<+discordbot2> The map looks very different from what I can recall now... 20180506 09:52:51<+discordbot2> does it actually have less route than before 20180506 09:54:22-!- m [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:5cd9:9fc7:8faf:30aa] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 09:54:34-!- m [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:5cd9:9fc7:8faf:30aa] has quit [Client Quit] 20180506 09:55:08<+discordbot2> what I currently do is mass tons of steelclad and kill bottom right 20180506 09:55:19<+discordbot2> to secure the heal lines 20180506 09:55:25<+discordbot2> then try bottom left 20180506 09:57:46<+discordbot2> It’s the same general map 20180506 09:57:50<+discordbot2> Same general objective 20180506 09:57:55<+discordbot2> Just more straightforward 20180506 09:58:09<+discordbot2> Fewer 1-hex passages 20180506 10:11:43<+discordbot2> where to get that ghost tho 20180506 10:22:06<+discordbot2> fuck 20180506 10:22:17<+discordbot2> I tried to not trigger top and left 20180506 10:22:24<+discordbot2> but the AI still come to me anyways 20180506 10:22:30<+discordbot2> what can I do to stop this 20180506 10:25:28< janebot> wesnoth: Top 10 ladder Wesnoth replays (by /u/qnok) https://redd.it/8hedeu 20180506 10:27:09-!- m [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:5cd9:9fc7:8faf:30aa] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 10:27:10-!- m is now known as Marcgal 20180506 10:45:08< Marcgal> Is there a way to Quit & save replay in one click 20180506 10:45:17< Marcgal> or am I supposed to (a) save replay (b) quit 20180506 10:57:12< hk238> such effort it takes 20180506 10:58:00< Marcgal> It takes no effort :) 20180506 12:04:34-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-91-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: I'm not back now.] 20180506 12:44:48< hk238> :o 20180506 12:48:21-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180506 12:48:24<+discordbot2> janebot wot 20180506 12:48:47<+discordbot2> @Pentarctagon that looks like hex dwarf fortress 20180506 12:48:51<+discordbot2> Even the font is the same 20180506 12:49:03< hk238> testing 20180506 12:56:23-!- Necrosporus_ [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 12:56:23-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has quit [Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 20180506 12:56:23-!- Necrosporus_ is now known as Necrosporus 20180506 13:01:37<+discordbot2> i asked about translation yesterday, can anyone help me how to start and where, and how do i submit it and etc 20180506 13:02:24<+discordbot2> right now, according to statistics only 12% are translated 20180506 13:02:58<+discordbot2> See https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothTranslationsHowTo and https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WesnothTranslations 20180506 13:03:15<+discordbot2> thank you πŸ˜ƒ 20180506 13:05:31<+discordbot2> are all of the maintainers active? 20180506 13:05:52<+discordbot2> No. 20180506 13:06:12<+discordbot2> For example, we recently found that Finnish maintainer is inactive. :/ 20180506 13:06:58<+discordbot2> i can translate to russian and ukrainian 20180506 13:07:04<+discordbot2> tis my job 20180506 13:07:43<+discordbot2> I'd recommend translating only to your native language. 20180506 13:08:02<+discordbot2> English is not my native. 20180506 13:08:08<+discordbot2> Also it's my job. 20180506 13:08:34<+discordbot2> RU and UA are both native to me, though. 20180506 13:08:53<+discordbot2> 20180506 13:08:54<+discordbot2> The target language is what matters. As long as you can understand English, you can translate from English. 20180506 13:09:17<+discordbot2> Nah man. 20180506 13:09:24<+discordbot2> You need to know the intricacies of both languages. 20180506 13:09:30<+discordbot2> Can't wing one. 20180506 13:10:05<+discordbot2> Well, we're relying on volunteers, and can't require professional level translators. 20180506 13:10:26<+discordbot2> but I doubt many people have both English and e.g. Russian as their native languages 20180506 13:10:44<+discordbot2> Rhike is a professional translator, I'd take him tbh 20180506 13:10:47<+discordbot2> so native target language and fluent English is good enough 20180506 13:11:55<+discordbot2> I've been studying English for 12 years 🀷 bilingual I could translate the entirety of wesnoth for 10$ because why not. However I do not know of the current state of it in Russian Perhaps it was worked on significantly already. 20180506 13:12:06<+discordbot2> and yes it's my job so "profession"ally 20180506 13:13:33<+discordbot2> Changelog says that Russian translation was last updated for version 1.13.6 (November 2016). That makes it sound like it's abandoned. 20180506 13:14:09<+discordbot2> I'd imagine most units still have their descriptions etc. tho 20180506 13:14:30<+discordbot2> I actually do not know how much the text in-game differs between versions aside from one mod i did 20180506 13:14:43<+discordbot2> You can probably get a more up-to-date picture of the situation by asking loonycyborg or sinda (both have worked in the Russian translation team and are in this Discord server). 20180506 13:14:49<+discordbot2> Sure. 20180506 13:15:11<+discordbot2> I never contributed translations 20180506 13:15:37<+discordbot2> Though russian translation maintainer seems extremely inactive lately 20180506 13:15:45<+discordbot2> I think we could need a replacement 20180506 13:16:08<+discordbot2> I found NR's mission 5 is still a bit imbalanced 20180506 13:16:12<+discordbot2> @Vultraz 20180506 13:16:17-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 13:16:26<+discordbot2> in the left bottom section, the AI still dominate a one hex path 20180506 13:16:34<+discordbot2> and they build units faster than you can kill 20180506 13:16:36<+discordbot2> Please avoid pinging developers. 20180506 13:16:50<+discordbot2> this makes some RNG luck necessary for this mission 20180506 13:17:03<+discordbot2> but who else should I pin to reflect this prob? 20180506 13:17:06<+discordbot2> is the hebrew maintainer still active? 20180506 13:17:31<+discordbot2> If you want to make sure that something you say isn't forgotten, file a bug report in gitHub. 20180506 13:17:49<+discordbot2> git...hub? 20180506 13:18:03<+discordbot2> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues 20180506 13:18:07<+discordbot2> okay 20180506 13:19:00<+discordbot2> wut da fuck 20180506 13:19:02<+discordbot2> (that's the thing I hate because I always end up stuck browsing past issues for hours while trying to make sure my problem wasn't reported yet and ever so slightly slip away from sanity, further and further :D) 20180506 13:19:03<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442676653567770634/unknown.png 20180506 13:19:27<+discordbot2> @jyrkive what am I supposed to do with this? 20180506 13:19:52<+discordbot2> try again, try another browser, try private mode 20180506 13:19:56<+discordbot2> okay 20180506 13:19:58<+discordbot2> I try IE 20180506 13:20:11<+discordbot2> try disabling addons 20180506 13:20:14<+discordbot2> for me it looks normal, the link 20180506 13:20:22<+discordbot2> usual stuff when the server blames your browser 20180506 13:21:04<+discordbot2> also I guess you still have to work on that 'avoid pinging people' stuff πŸ˜‚ 20180506 13:21:08<+discordbot2> yeah it worked 20180506 13:21:12<+discordbot2> stupid fucking chrome 20180506 13:21:19<+discordbot2> I found it always amusing 20180506 13:21:26<+discordbot2> that none of the one particular browser 20180506 13:21:29<+discordbot2> can do everything for you 20180506 13:21:43<+discordbot2> you always need IE plus chrome plus firefox to get things going 20180506 13:22:05<+discordbot2> actually I'm fine with just FF 20180506 13:22:17<+discordbot2> just a matter of how you configure it and what do you expect 20180506 13:22:18<+discordbot2> FF is slow over time when you open too many pages 20180506 13:22:22<+discordbot2> chrome is less slow 20180506 13:22:31<+discordbot2> not the case anymore 20180506 13:22:32<+discordbot2> but more buggy some of the times 20180506 13:22:34<+discordbot2> they fixed that 20180506 13:22:48<+discordbot2> I just find each of the browser are useful in certain ways 20180506 13:26:12<+discordbot2> how to tag the issue I submitted 20180506 13:26:18<+discordbot2> I see someone tag "bug" 20180506 13:26:25<+discordbot2> but this one isnt precisely a bug tho 20180506 13:26:34<+discordbot2> it is more of a poor design and need some rework 20180506 13:27:14<+discordbot2> Only us developers can label issues. 20180506 13:27:54<+discordbot2> In addition, we don't see any new issues in GitHub, so it apparently got caught in GitHub's automatic spam filter. 😦 20180506 13:32:34<+discordbot2> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/3043 20180506 13:32:46<+discordbot2> @jyrkive hi, I posted that issue in github 20180506 13:32:51<+discordbot2> is the format OK? 20180506 13:34:01<+discordbot2> Yes, it's OK. 20180506 13:34:11<+discordbot2> I and sevu labeled it as a bug. 20180506 13:35:04<+discordbot2> okay, thanks 20180506 13:35:27<+discordbot2> no shit 20180506 13:35:31<+discordbot2> actually 20180506 13:35:36<+discordbot2> mission 1 is peasant vs orc 20180506 13:35:44<+discordbot2> 2 is hodor vs ud troll 20180506 13:35:52<+discordbot2> 3 is dwarf vs wolf 20180506 13:36:01<+discordbot2> 4 is dwarf vs ud 20180506 13:36:05<+discordbot2> so it is 5 not 6 20180506 13:36:21-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180506 13:36:35<+discordbot2> OK, I changed the title. 20180506 13:36:55<+discordbot2> ah thanks 20180506 13:36:58<+discordbot2> πŸ‘ 20180506 13:37:03<+discordbot2> you are awesome mate 20180506 13:38:51<+discordbot2> what does it mean by good first issue? 20180506 13:39:21<+discordbot2> It means "something that we think a new developer can fix easily" 20180506 13:39:42<+discordbot2> So that if a new developer joins, they can start with issues with that label. 20180506 13:43:41<+discordbot2> I think it is only fixing the map a tiny little bit 20180506 13:43:52<+discordbot2> like adding a hex that much of a job 20180506 13:43:54<+discordbot2> can I do it 20180506 13:43:57<+discordbot2> and give you guys map 20180506 13:44:21<+discordbot2> Yes, it would be appreciated. 20180506 13:44:42<+discordbot2> Contributions are officially supposed to be sent as Git pull requests, though... 20180506 13:44:53<+discordbot2> (But they're quite difficult for non-programmers.) 20180506 13:46:22< celticminstrel> Are they? 20180506 13:59:59<+discordbot2> I'm a half-programmer and I hate doing that, so... 20180506 14:05:37-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180506 14:06:44-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 14:38:37-!- Marcgal [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:5cd9:9fc7:8faf:30aa] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180506 14:45:58<+discordbot2> I thought its just editing the map by adding a hex tho... 20180506 14:46:16<+discordbot2> didnt thought it was so impossibly difficult for non programmers 20180506 14:47:16<+discordbot2> editing the map is the easy part 20180506 14:47:32<+discordbot2> doing things with git can be a maze though 20180506 14:49:19<+discordbot2> how to post it in git pull... 20180506 15:13:48-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 15:29:09-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-91-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 15:31:34< Ravana_> I see a lot more "started reloaded game" notifications from 1.14 channel. Was there something changed that would make reloading more popular? 20180506 15:32:35-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 15:32:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180506 15:32:52-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has left #wesnoth [] 20180506 15:33:31< loonycyborg> more compared to what? 20180506 15:34:31< Ravana_> in 1.12 channel I see reloaded games only rarely 20180506 15:35:10-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 15:36:52< loonycyborg> there might be more bugs leading to people to remake games, so it might be worthwhile to look into what exactly leads to them 20180506 15:38:02<+discordbot2> did the server crash recently? 20180506 15:38:12<+discordbot2> that'd do it, I figure 20180506 15:38:42< Ravana_> not in last several hours at least 20180506 15:39:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180506 15:40:05< loonycyborg> there is no new core file since last time I updated it 20180506 15:40:21< loonycyborg> there still are bugs not leading to crashes 20180506 15:50:53<+discordbot2> So how do I register my username? I tried going to the websight but it doesn't have you register a user, what do I do? 20180506 15:53:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 15:54:26<+discordbot2> Where are the little race portraits controlled from? I used to know but don't any more. 20180506 15:55:58<+discordbot2> @TheMadDonut You can register in the forums: https://forums.wesnoth.org/index.php 20180506 15:56:31<+discordbot2> Will this let me play on the multiplayer server? 20180506 15:56:55<+discordbot2> Yes. 20180506 16:02:53-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 16:04:20<+discordbot2> Any support for the idea of getting a umc-dev discord channel to ask annoyingly technical for the general channel but not dev related questions? Maybe still linked to the general irc? These channels are so busy now. 20180506 16:19:33-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 16:20:58-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has left #wesnoth [] 20180506 16:34:47-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 16:36:27-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has left #wesnoth [] 20180506 16:37:23<+discordbot2> Hey! Wesnoth has been crashing a bunch since I've downloaded it on Steam, and I'm getting this message in my logs: MEMORY-ERROR: wesnoth.exe[11372]: GSlice: failed to allocate 4088 bytes (alignment: 4096): Not enough space 20180506 16:37:45<+discordbot2> I have 24gb of ram, is there a way I can bypass this limit? 20180506 16:38:24<+discordbot2> I tried searching the forums but I haven't found anything, maybe I didn't search hard enough 20180506 16:38:29<+discordbot2> Are you on Windows? What add-ons do you have installed? 20180506 16:38:33<+discordbot2> Windows 20180506 16:38:37<+discordbot2> Oh a shit load 20180506 16:38:46<+discordbot2> so you might be hitting 2GB limit 20180506 16:38:50<+discordbot2> The best thing we can recommend for the moment is to not install too many add-ons. 20180506 16:39:16<+discordbot2> Alrighty, so there's no way for me to bypass the memory limit on my end? 20180506 16:39:29<+discordbot2> not in an easy way 20180506 16:40:44<+discordbot2> Yeah, not really, and the limit in practice is a little below 2 GiB depending on your configuration (probably about 1.8 GiB). 20180506 16:40:57<+discordbot2> We're looking into the possibility of providing 64-bit builds if this becomes a common issue. 20180506 16:41:32<+discordbot2> I think neither PAE nor changing user-mode memory to kernel-mode memory ratio can be done on 'normal' (i.e. non server) Windows 20180506 16:42:19<+discordbot2> Ahh that's a shame, well thank you for the help πŸ˜ƒ 20180506 16:42:53<+discordbot2> PAE requires server versions and /3GB is useless if the program doesn't have the large-VA-aware flag IIRC. 20180506 16:44:24<+discordbot2> ok, I'm quite impressed you remember that 20180506 16:45:46<+discordbot2> Adding the flag would be trivial, though. 20180506 16:45:47<+discordbot2> http://ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php 20180506 16:46:53<+discordbot2> Is that even honoured by 64-bit Windows? 20180506 16:47:14<+discordbot2> idk, should be 20180506 16:47:35<+discordbot2> 64-bit Windows is emulating 32-bit Windows when running 32-bit apps 20180506 16:47:56<+discordbot2> (hence the WoW, WindowsonWindows and similar stuff) 20180506 16:48:30<+discordbot2> I don't think it would give the app full 4GB for user mode, some kernel mode addresses are still required 20180506 16:49:07<+discordbot2> Yeah, it just shrinks the kernel mode space to the top 1 GB. 20180506 16:50:59<+discordbot2> well, 32-bit to 64-bit is still in better shape than IPv4 to IPv6 20180506 16:58:53<+discordbot2> ^is not a very high bar 20180506 17:00:09<+discordbot2> shhh 20180506 17:05:35-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p4FC53492.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 17:08:09-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180506 17:09:18-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p4FC53492.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180506 17:09:18-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 17:09:43-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic 20180506 17:23:12-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180506 17:38:59-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180506 17:54:23-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p579FB6AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 17:54:49-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180506 17:56:16-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@p579FB6AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180506 17:56:16-!- Ivanovic_ [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 17:56:29-!- Ivanovic_ is now known as Ivanovic 20180506 18:04:33-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180506 18:21:45-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FB6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 18:23:01-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FB6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180506 18:23:01-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 18:33:31<+discordbot2> almost a thousand people playing Wesnoth right now, apparently 20180506 18:33:33<+discordbot2> http://steamcharts.com/app/599390 20180506 18:35:14< celticminstrel> o.o 20180506 18:37:52<+discordbot2> The last 2-3 days every time I looked it was between 700 and 900 people. 20180506 18:53:36<+discordbot2> Wait. 65.150 hours. That sounds a lot for 6 days. 20180506 18:54:40<+discordbot2> where did you get 65150? 20180506 18:56:40<+discordbot2> Player hours since May 2018 20180506 18:57:13<+discordbot2> this sounds a bit high 20180506 18:58:44<+discordbot2> well, that's good I guess 20180506 19:08:26<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442764585473146886/Screenshot_2018-05-06-21-09-26.png 20180506 19:09:04<+discordbot2> Probaply best negative review 20180506 19:11:37<+discordbot2> tbh I don't like such reviews, when I browse reviews and look at negative I want to see what are the actual things people don't like about the game to assess whether I will care or not 20180506 19:12:03-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 19:12:09<+discordbot2> same 20180506 19:12:44<+discordbot2> i think the one minor and unfixable issue with battle for wesnoth is that it isnt really a good competitive game like 20180506 19:13:33<+discordbot2> because the games take a while and some maps are unbalanced in smaller maps and such 20180506 19:13:47<+discordbot2> but eh i guess it is fully functional for a competitive format 20180506 19:14:33<+discordbot2> It doesn't have to be imho 20180506 19:15:10<+discordbot2> It does a good job at being a strategy game and that's what's important to me 20180506 19:15:17<+discordbot2> Isn't there a way to mark joke reviews now? 20180506 19:15:29<+discordbot2> @Narutond True that.. :) 20180506 19:15:30<+discordbot2> Funny? 20180506 19:15:35<+discordbot2> Yes, players can mark reviews as funny. 20180506 19:15:47<+discordbot2> oh my god 20180506 19:15:54<+discordbot2> Not relatively new 20180506 19:16:03<+discordbot2> That review was marked as "funny" by 100 players, and as "useful" by 11 players. 20180506 19:16:11<+discordbot2> So, the system is working as intended. 20180506 19:16:15<+discordbot2> Altho 100 ppl marked that review funny? 20180506 19:16:27<+discordbot2> That's really a lot 20180506 19:44:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180506 19:44:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 19:51:09<+discordbot2> @shadowm I've uploaded it as wesnoth-try-fix.exe 20180506 19:51:26<+discordbot2> 1.14.0 tag + your commit cherry-picked 20180506 19:51:42<+discordbot2> Okay thanks. 20180506 19:51:58<+discordbot2> Next question is, what the easiest way to tell Steam users to replace their wesnoth.exe? 20180506 19:52:29<+discordbot2> Oh right there's an option to browse the game dir, isn't there... 20180506 19:52:41<+discordbot2> Properties -> Local Files -> Browse Local FIles 20180506 19:55:35<+discordbot2> I got an idea 20180506 19:55:43<+discordbot2> For flameheart's suggestion 20180506 19:55:57<+discordbot2> Of completing the first mission of DiD without zombies 20180506 19:56:04<+discordbot2> You get to take 1-2 spearmen with you 20180506 19:57:05<+discordbot2> Can some one add bug-report channel 20180506 19:57:58<+discordbot2> There's github for that 20180506 19:58:34<+discordbot2> It's not convenient at all to sift through Discord or IRC messages from days past for bug reports, we'd prefer if people used GitHub or the forums for that. 20180506 19:59:11<+discordbot2> (Especially since we sometimes need to ask for additional info or have people try out patches, etc.) 20180506 19:59:41<+discordbot2> Speaking on which, if anyone here is affected by the instant crash-to-desktop when accessing Prereferences and other dialogs on Windows: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=627523#p627523 20180506 20:01:43< Ivanovic> shadowm: for steam users: post a discussion in the steam discussion boards 20180506 20:02:01< Ivanovic> that might be the easiest way to have some of those users test it 20180506 20:03:05<+discordbot2> Could someone else do that? I'll be off for an hour now. 20180506 20:06:37< Ivanovic> @shadowm: done https://steamcommunity.com/app/599390/discussions/0/1696046342868114907/ 20180506 20:07:25<+discordbot2> should I pin that^ 20180506 20:09:56< Ivanovic> @Pentarctagon: that would be great 20180506 20:10:03<+discordbot2> @Rhike Being able to use Spearmen would be a nice bonus, but I don't see how it makes very much sense. 20180506 20:10:14< Ivanovic> (at least until we have some feedback if this fixes the issue and potentially the new release out with the fix) 20180506 20:10:27<+discordbot2> Ivanovic: alright, done. 20180506 20:10:33< Ivanovic> thanks! 20180506 20:10:46<+discordbot2> I could maybe see some kind of ancillary animal companion or something as a free unit, but ehhhh 20180506 20:13:28<+discordbot2> Maybe like dogs or something 20180506 20:13:49<+discordbot2> just a little level 0 or something that can go to maybe level 1 or 2 20180506 20:14:15<+discordbot2> Start with one or two of 'em 20180506 20:14:34<+discordbot2> but you only get to keep them if you don't summon zombies 20180506 20:15:36<+discordbot2> Maybe maybe have them switch sides (maybe to your allied side?) as soon as you summon a zombie 20180506 20:17:44<+discordbot2> How github works 20180506 20:25:31<+discordbot2> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth 20180506 20:25:37<+discordbot2> our github is there 20180506 20:25:44<+discordbot2> you just need to click on issues there 20180506 20:26:03<+discordbot2> it has new issue button 20180506 20:39:39< celticminstrel> Or click + at the top right and select New Issue 20180506 20:39:53< celticminstrel> No need to view issue list first. 20180506 20:40:30-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180506 20:47:55<+discordbot2> wow seems pretty much all complains about wesnoth are about the RNG πŸ˜› 20180506 20:48:38<+discordbot2> did an analysis yesterday on that 20180506 20:48:58<+discordbot2> in the long run (a whole map) there isn't much luck involved actually 20180506 20:49:41<+discordbot2> it is almost guaranteed to roughly even out 20180506 20:50:28<+discordbot2> even on small 1v1 maps, on bigger maps with multiple sides luck is even less important in the long run 20180506 20:51:11<+discordbot2> also this is a good read on the topic https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=21317 20180506 20:52:58<+discordbot2> tl,dr: RNG forces your analytical skills to a whole new level and requires you to account for best/worst/expected scenarios and to manage risk 20180506 20:53:48<+discordbot2> otherwise fights would be more like a puzzle mixed with chess 20180506 20:55:36<+discordbot2> @Krecikdwamiljony I usually stay out of the RNG discussion, and I am just going to make one comment here and then disappear again. 20180506 20:56:13<+discordbot2> Let me preface it by saying that I like the random aspect of Wesnoth, and support it never being changed, and people who don't like it IMO should just not play it. 20180506 20:56:23<+discordbot2> However, the argument you make has a flaw in it. 20180506 20:56:43<+discordbot2> Yes, the average probabilities will average out. 20180506 20:56:57<+discordbot2> I know where you're going to with this 20180506 20:57:08<+discordbot2> But there are crucial points in some games when it comes down to one (or a few battles) 20180506 20:57:16<+discordbot2> Okay ... Good. I'll stop then. 😦 20180506 20:57:21<+discordbot2> opps :), I mean 20180506 20:57:40<+discordbot2> that's the "RNG forces your analytical skills to a whole new level and requires you to account for best/worst/expected scenarios and to manage risk" 20180506 20:57:53<+discordbot2> But in my opinion, this is part of this game, and dealing with it is part of the fun, so no way this should be changed. πŸ˜ƒ 20180506 20:58:25<+discordbot2> Well, that's the conclusion, yes. But my point leading there was a different one. 20180506 20:58:55<+discordbot2> ommitted it for brevity, made a wall of text anyway 20180506 20:59:00<+discordbot2> As in, in closely matched game, whether your mage 2 XP from leveling dies or turns into a healer might matter for the overall outcome. 20180506 20:59:28<+discordbot2> and that requires the risk management skill 20180506 20:59:38<+discordbot2> And so, yes, luck may decide the outcome of a game. But so what? 20180506 20:59:57<+discordbot2> Right. Agreed. And as I said, I actually like that aspect. 20180506 21:00:24<+discordbot2> In real life, would I do something where I have a 6% (or even 0.6%) chance of actually dying? Hell no! 20180506 21:02:34<+discordbot2> Would I look past my ex's flaws and try to be with her anyway, knowing it might end up quite shitty? I estimated the risk, I estimated the possible outcomes, I took the risk. 20180506 21:02:51<+discordbot2> well, turns out I'm bad at risk management not only in Wesnoth 20180506 21:02:59<+discordbot2> but the game's not the one to be blamed 20180506 21:03:01<+discordbot2> He he. 20180506 21:03:25<+discordbot2> My only point here was that it's a bit more complicated than averaging the RNG over a game/scenario. 20180506 21:03:34<+discordbot2> We seem to be in good agreement overall though. 20180506 21:03:42<+discordbot2> Anyways, this is the most I have ever said in any of the RNG discussions and it's the end of what I am going to say here. 20180506 21:09:30< zookeeper> i suspect there's also a huge difference in how luck feels like in a board game that you play with physical dice with people around the same table where someone having bad luck is mostly just collectively funny and entertaining, vs. in a computer game. 20180506 21:09:58<+discordbot2> If it were up to me, I would change the RNG into a pseudo-RNG system. 20180506 21:10:07<+discordbot2> But of course it is absolutely not. 20180506 21:10:36<+discordbot2> Honestly I wouldn't be opposed to at least adding an option for PRNG calculations but I don't know that code. 20180506 21:10:51<+discordbot2> If someone made a PR I wouldn't reject it 20180506 21:11:38<+discordbot2> You'd have to figure out what sort of behavior is desirable in the first place, though πŸ‘€ 20180506 21:11:48<+discordbot2> and that's a non-trivial problem 20180506 21:11:51<+discordbot2> yeah, that's what we discussed yesterday 20180506 21:11:59<+discordbot2> Indeed 20180506 21:12:16<+discordbot2> "You" meaning "someone who wants to develop that" 20180506 21:12:18<+discordbot2> :P 20180506 21:12:28<+discordbot2> (where's our little shaman?) 20180506 21:12:28<+discordbot2> I'd feel inclined to agree that a PRNG approach would work better for everyone, but some other developers in the past have spoken quite loudly against the idea. 20180506 21:12:47<+discordbot2> The main concern with Wesnoth versus, say, a tabletop RPG is you have potentially 6 incoming attacks 20180506 21:13:03<+discordbot2> So if you need to hit one in three swings to kill somebody, and if you don’t, your plan will fail 20180506 21:13:28<+discordbot2> Whereas tabletops aren’t always huge tactical battles involving the number of units Wesnoth has 20180506 21:13:42<+discordbot2> More often it’s 1 v. 1 or similarly smaller battles 20180506 21:13:56<+discordbot2> Oh, my paladin missed? Oh well, maybe next round. 20180506 21:14:20<+discordbot2> that's the risk management part, if you didn't account for the possibility that you might miss all three attacks then it's your fault you failed 20180506 21:14:21<+discordbot2> Wesnoth: My Knight missed? F***, he’s gonna die next turn for sure. 20180506 21:14:25-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20180506 21:15:34 * celticminstrel wonders what Vultraz thinks PRNG stands for... 20180506 21:15:37<+discordbot2> as a sidenote, your attempts at formatting are adorable (even though I have no idea how to achieve what you're trying) 20180506 21:15:39< celticminstrel> @Vultraz 20180506 21:15:41-!- jurkan [~quassel@granny.omameier.net] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 21:15:45-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180506 21:15:52<+discordbot2> maybe replace unit death with de-leveling instead 20180506 21:15:59<+discordbot2> Pseudo RNG 20180506 21:16:30<+discordbot2> @loonycyborg That sounds like a radical idea πŸ˜› 20180506 21:16:35< celticminstrel> Oh wait it was @ancestral being dumb here, not Vultraz? 20180506 21:16:44< celticminstrel> I mean, Mersenne Twister is a PRNG. 20180506 21:17:03<+discordbot2> What I meant was not using the random number generator by itself 20180506 21:17:07<+discordbot2> everything a pc uses is a PRNG 20180506 21:17:13<+discordbot2> not everything 20180506 21:17:18<+discordbot2> random.org is true RNG 20180506 21:17:25<+discordbot2> uses random static noise 20180506 21:17:31<+discordbot2> everything not involving quantum computing or something πŸ˜› 20180506 21:17:32<+discordbot2> Quantum computing is true RNG 20180506 21:18:35< celticminstrel> A lot of modern computers now have a hardware device for true randomness, if I'm not mistaken. 20180506 21:18:40<+discordbot2> but that's beside the point, we've already argued about that and it's simply convenient to say RNG = generator where each output value is independent from the others, PRNG = generator which tries to be just and better and less annoying somehow 20180506 21:19:00<+discordbot2> what is really meant here is some "cheating" rng 20180506 21:19:03<+discordbot2> No, I don't think we agreed that :P 20180506 21:19:20<+discordbot2> But I'm not opposed to the idea of agreeing that, for the purposes of this discussion πŸ˜› 20180506 21:19:22<+discordbot2> got you, I didn't use the word 'agreed' :P 20180506 21:19:32<+discordbot2> like for example some game in fact did two rolls at indicated success rate 20180506 21:19:40<+discordbot2> and chose a better one 20180506 21:20:08<+discordbot2> but that's analytically the same as doing one roll with different threshold 20180506 21:20:16<+discordbot2> reading comprehension . j p e g 20180506 21:20:20< zookeeper> @Krecikdwamiljony, to an extent, sure. but i think the part where the standard "you just need to manage risks" argument breaks down is the fact that it doesn't account for the other player's actions: no matter how well you manage risk, the other player can just attack you and get really lucky and then you lose, regardless of how perfectly you play. if you don't gamble the outcome of the match 20180506 21:20:20< zookeeper> on a few important rounds of combat, nothing prevents your opponent from doing so. 20180506 21:20:21< zookeeper> i'm not trying to argue the basic idea of said argument, just that ultimately i think it's fruitful to admit that as long as there's luck involved, someone's going to win or lose due to no fault of their own, period. 20180506 21:20:48<+discordbot2> yeah, true 20180506 21:21:41<+discordbot2> example regarding two rolls: if you want to roll twice with 50% success chance choosing the better roll, you might as well roll just once with 75% success chance 20180506 21:22:18<+discordbot2> so that's not really accomplishing anything, just changing the values 20180506 21:22:58<+discordbot2> it was showing original roll value to user 20180506 21:23:01<+discordbot2> and maybe could be aesthetic if this was somehow presented to the player like showing those two rolls so that they knew only one was good and could be happy he got locky 20180506 21:23:05<+discordbot2> so it was cheating with real value 20180506 21:23:31<+discordbot2> The situation is sort of different in Fire Emblem, for example, because hit% is something modified by many factors in a very granular fashion. 20180506 21:23:59<+discordbot2> but it's a double-edged sword, how do you want to choose whom to favor in rolls? vs AI you could always favor the player, but what about MP? 20180506 21:24:08<+discordbot2> ^ 20180506 21:24:10<+discordbot2> I believe it's quite a quick dead-end 20180506 21:24:49<+discordbot2> I personally think missing slows the game down in a bad way. 20180506 21:25:24<+discordbot2> this is why for example defense values higher than 80% are banned πŸ˜› 20180506 21:25:55<+discordbot2> Banned? 20180506 21:25:56<+discordbot2> Dumb idea: You can take (some small number) of mulligan rolls each turn, but doing that gives your opponent the exact same number of mulligans to use next turn, for free. 20180506 21:26:02<+discordbot2> If you favor the attacker, then your game will end more quickly 20180506 21:26:10<+discordbot2> According to who are they banned now? 20180506 21:26:18<+discordbot2> And it will be less likely that both players will wait for the opponent to attack, and just sit in their castles all day. 20180506 21:26:33<+discordbot2> Is there anything in mainline with higher than 70% defense? 20180506 21:27:44< celticminstrel> They might be banned in mainline, yeah. 20180506 21:28:04< celticminstrel> I mean, it's certainly true that no mainline stuff uses anything higher than 70%. 20180506 21:29:44<+discordbot2> I feel like an acceptable method might be to tweak the actual RNG threshholds in multi-strike attacks to create a higher chance of at least one hit and a lower chance of none, without changing the average damage? 20180506 21:29:58<+discordbot2> another dumb idea discussed yesterday was to roll a pool of rolls once and then give the same pool to all players, just with random order, that way the 'average luck' would be exactly the same, but that would counter only the 'average luck' issue, not the 'critical luck' 20180506 21:30:33<+discordbot2> Yes, I'm the one who proposed that πŸ˜› 20180506 21:30:38<+discordbot2> oh ok 20180506 21:30:47<+discordbot2> it was late for me, alright? 20180506 21:30:54<+discordbot2> I'm aware 20180506 21:30:59< Ravana_> such rng ideas should be tried as addons, only involving core game when there is need to get some info that is normally not visible for Lua 20180506 21:31:22<+discordbot2> well, there already was at least one person who disagreed with you on that making such 'at least one hit is likely to go through' is desired :D 20180506 21:31:56<+discordbot2> @shadowm well I remember reading about that in balancing guidelines 20180506 21:31:58<+discordbot2> Who disagreed? 20180506 21:31:59<+discordbot2> πŸ€” 20180506 21:32:03<+discordbot2> but already forgot where exactly 20180506 21:32:08<+discordbot2> our little shaman :D 20180506 21:32:19<+discordbot2> but I don't remember ever seeing defense of 90% anywhere 20180506 21:32:31< zookeeper> i wonder if that pool idea would be possible as an add-on. you can alter CtH from WML after all, although... well, i guess you can't do it mid-attack, only right before an attack starts. 20180506 21:33:47<+discordbot2> I feel like it'd end up super hacky :P 20180506 21:34:52<+discordbot2> I didn't see any post from anyone who disagreed, Krecik. Mind quoting? 20180506 21:35:06<+discordbot2> well, if you couldn't affect the probabilities between single strikes then you'd need to 'draw from the luck pool' in batches and then the whole series would be more or less lucky 20180506 21:35:21< zookeeper> @Visage, i think that mulligan roll idea could at least be done in some form. can't do it as actual re-rolls perhaps, but as some kind of increased CtH, probably. 20180506 21:35:56<+discordbot2> Yeah, a temporary boost to CtH would be super doable 20180506 21:36:34<+discordbot2> @loonycyborg Okay, next question. Since when do we have balancing guidelines and why hasn't anyone pointed me to them in the last 10 and a half years? 20180506 21:36:35<+discordbot2> Yumi - DziΕ› o 00:31 sure I like having my units live 20180506 21:36:46<+discordbot2> (tl,dr version) 20180506 21:37:09<+discordbot2> I don't remember where exactly that was 20180506 21:37:10<+discordbot2> That wasn't directly related, but ok, I suppose.... 20180506 21:37:12<+discordbot2> ask soliton maybe 20180506 21:37:48<+discordbot2> yeah it was in that context as in 'imagine your little shaman is surrounded by three skeletons and it's cool that she still has a slight chance to live' 20180506 21:39:16<+discordbot2> I almost feel like giving you 1 attack of guaranteed hits would work. Something like: context menu -> guaranteed hits You and your opponent both get guaranteed hits for all strikes of that attack Your opponent now gets to use the same feature without guaranteeing your counterattacks and without granting you the same benefit 20180506 21:39:41<+discordbot2> and after using that, your opponent can do the exact same thing, granting the benefit to you 20180506 21:39:50<+discordbot2> ....that was rather unclearly stated 20180506 21:40:10<+discordbot2> but at least I get the idea (or I think I get it) 20180506 21:40:31<+discordbot2> it might be going somewhere and even somewhere not being directly to trash 20180506 21:40:55<+discordbot2> (that was a convoluted compliment) 20180506 21:41:40<+discordbot2> heh 20180506 21:42:14< zookeeper> how would it work in, say, a 2v2 match? 20180506 21:42:35<+discordbot2> It gives the benefit to the player you attacked 20180506 21:42:44<+discordbot2> Please do the thing which is already in Battle Brothers 20180506 21:42:50<+discordbot2> Do tell! 20180506 21:42:50<+discordbot2> To eliminate all complaints 20180506 21:42:58<+discordbot2> ....oh, boy. 20180506 21:43:22<+discordbot2> The more people surround a unit the less protection in dodge chance that unit gets. 20180506 21:43:31<+discordbot2> So 20180506 21:43:40<+discordbot2> In every kind of combat imaginable 20180506 21:43:47<+discordbot2> That shaman surrounded by 7 skeletons 20180506 21:43:51<+discordbot2> Has to die. 20180506 21:43:57<+discordbot2> If it doesn't, it will in one turn. 20180506 21:43:58<+discordbot2> oh boy, Yumi won't be happy 20180506 21:44:04<+discordbot2> Flanking bonuses, you mean? 20180506 21:44:20<+discordbot2> Yeah, something like that. But it's more of an "overpowering bonus". 20180506 21:44:25<+discordbot2> To the entirety of the squad. 20180506 21:44:29<+discordbot2> Because that unit 20180506 21:44:31<+discordbot2> Technically 20180506 21:44:35<+discordbot2> Has to cover all his sides 20180506 21:44:39<+discordbot2> So he splits his dodge chance 20180506 21:44:45<+discordbot2> To look out for every angle 20180506 21:44:48<+discordbot2> Would you then increase the base dodge chances? 20180506 21:44:56<+discordbot2> How fast would the bonus scale, and how high? 20180506 21:45:25<+discordbot2> Let's say a footpad is surrounded by 3 opponents. This means that he now has 50% dodge chance. 20180506 21:45:26<+discordbot2> Do different positions with the same number of units give different levels of bonus? 20180506 21:45:35<+discordbot2> Yeah 20180506 21:45:40<+discordbot2> Unit 0s don't affect this at all 20180506 21:45:54<+discordbot2> Any other unit (the second one in the fight) lowers dodge chance by 10% 20180506 21:46:24<+discordbot2> Or 20180506 21:46:29<+discordbot2> This is way #1 20180506 21:46:59-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180506 21:47:09<+discordbot2> Way #2 would be if you manage to completely flank an opponent, preventing them to move more than 1 block, that's when the dodge chance drops. Still accounting for all units in the vicinity 20180506 21:47:15<+discordbot2> So to initiate a gank 20180506 21:47:19<+discordbot2> You need a flank 20180506 21:47:25<+discordbot2> This seems very fair. 20180506 21:47:38<+discordbot2> So 20180506 21:47:39<+discordbot2> btw this sounds implementable as a mod as far as I understood 20180506 21:47:58<+discordbot2> (and also as something that would crazily shake the balance of the game) 20180506 21:48:16<+discordbot2> Footpad is attacked by 3 people. 2 people move back and forward of him, preventing him to pass. 60% dodge chance. Another one comes in from any angle. 50% dodge chance. 20180506 21:48:29<+discordbot2> If you cover your flank angles you will not have a downside. 20180506 21:49:04<+discordbot2> This counters the retarded strategy of any high dodge unit in a village such as the aforementioned footpad 20180506 21:49:04<+discordbot2> Alright, @Rhike has been warned because 'Bad word usage'. 20180506 21:49:11<+discordbot2> xD 20180506 21:49:28<+discordbot2> .....Why is that considered a bad word? 20180506 21:49:36<+discordbot2> This counters the stupid strategy of footpad + village just in front of the enemy and a 4 man team can't take him down 20180506 21:49:40<+discordbot2> Because RNGesud 20180506 21:50:26<+discordbot2> Because there's 4 people footpad will have 40% dodge chance 20180506 21:50:35<+discordbot2> (1st one is not counted) 20180506 21:50:38<+discordbot2> Or 20180506 21:50:44<+discordbot2> Way #3 20180506 21:50:58<+discordbot2> Use #2 but tone it down a notch, so flank bonus is starting from the third unit. 20180506 21:51:09<+discordbot2> So if a footpad gets flanked by 3 people it's 60% still. 20180506 21:51:24<+discordbot2> Doesn't seem broken. 20180506 21:51:34<+discordbot2> Pls add πŸ™ 20180506 21:52:25-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 21:52:43<+discordbot2> Listen, once in a campaign my duelist was completely surrounded, every single hex, every, by elves and he survived 3 turns on 4 hp. 20180506 21:52:59<+discordbot2> It's tactically impossible. 20180506 21:53:05<+discordbot2> How many hexes is it? 1v7? 20180506 21:53:25-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: APic, janebot 20180506 21:53:37<+discordbot2> hex, as the name implies has six neighbours :P 20180506 21:53:37<+discordbot2> lel 20180506 21:53:37<+discordbot2> Yeah so 20180506 21:53:38<+discordbot2> A whole squad of troops 20180506 21:53:40<+discordbot2> Vs 20180506 21:53:47<+discordbot2> One civilian with a rapier and a crossbow 20180506 21:53:48<+discordbot2> Or even 20180506 21:54:00<+discordbot2> One teenager with a stick and a sling 20180506 21:54:08-!- Netsplit over, joins: janebot 20180506 21:54:08<+discordbot2> also a stylish scarf I believe? 20180506 21:54:13<+discordbot2> Or one shaman girl 20180506 21:54:21<+discordbot2> (this asks for a brazzers logo) 20180506 21:54:39<+discordbot2> bad word 20180506 21:55:03<+discordbot2> Alright, @Krecikdwamiljony has been warned because 'Bad word usage'. 20180506 21:55:07<+discordbot2> :D 20180506 21:56:05<+discordbot2> it could be a bit awkward though because at times you'd have to choose between potentially unnecessarily wasting the rest of the turn movement for the extra flanking and potentially missing 20180506 21:56:11<+discordbot2> My point is that scouts and assassins should excel at low-number engagements. 20180506 21:56:21<+discordbot2> Not have 70% against a whole platoon of enemies. 20180506 21:56:24<+discordbot2> That is absurd 20180506 21:56:46<+discordbot2> so you have that padfoot with 2hp and you either first flank him, losing the rest of the movement on a few units, then attack 20180506 21:56:50< Ravana_> easy to implement, qciv has similar 20180506 21:57:08<+discordbot2> or you try with one unit first, hoping it will kill him and the rest can go farther 20180506 21:57:09<+discordbot2> It's a tactical choice, seems good in my book 20180506 21:57:41<+discordbot2> Or that padfoot is like in your base and you got nothing to do except to kill him 20180506 21:57:48<+discordbot2> And you just happen to not have a mage 20180506 21:57:51<+discordbot2> So 20180506 21:57:57<+discordbot2> He's chilling in your base 20180506 21:58:01<+discordbot2> Being all 20180506 21:58:08<+discordbot2> Come and get me f00ls 20180506 21:58:27<+discordbot2> yeah, a tactical choice, but still a bit awkward, but idk 20180506 21:58:35-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 22:00:29-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 22:00:55-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180506 22:00:56< Ravana_> funny to see people planning 1.12 game in 1.14 lobby 20180506 22:01:37-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180506 22:02:16<+discordbot2> be a nice guy and help them, then :D 20180506 22:03:03<+discordbot2> What's the player numbers looking like 20180506 22:03:55<+discordbot2> http://steamcharts.com/app/599390 839 half an hour ago 20180506 22:04:53<+discordbot2> Nice 20180506 22:04:54<+discordbot2> does that count every log-in or every log-in for one nickname instance only ocne? 20180506 22:05:07<+discordbot2> It counts for just launching the game 20180506 22:05:18<+discordbot2> launching the game via steam 20180506 22:05:21<+discordbot2> Yes 20180506 22:06:06<+discordbot2> ok funny. that number would have been too small. i start wesnoth alone 15 times a days 20180506 22:06:48<+discordbot2> concurrent players mate. 20180506 22:06:49-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180506 22:06:57<+discordbot2> not just starting it 20180506 22:08:40< janebot> wesnoth: How long do you play Wesnoth? :D (by /u/Moaning_Clock) https://redd.it/8hiova 20180506 22:13:29< aeth> I should be playing Wesnoth MP against all of the new Steam players and farming xp off of their inexperience before they learn how to play well. 20180506 22:14:08< aeth> Too bad 1.14 doesn't have XP save for units, though. 20180506 22:14:37<+discordbot2> Yeah it sounds like you want a wholly different game. 20180506 22:14:43< aeth> I think it's actually implementable through user-persistent storage, strangely enough. 20180506 22:15:37< aeth> shadowm, think of the potential for an xp save mod! All of the newbies will use it because they think it'll make the game easier, but it'd actually make the game easier for people like me because I could level my units faster so I'd always have max-level units and feeding units. 20180506 22:15:44< Ravana_> it is valid addon idea that tracks your progress 20180506 22:16:29< aeth> Ravana_: well, essentially the easiest way to do "xp save" would be to be able to recall units from previous games with the same faction as your current game... possibly with some cap to prevent there from being too many (like e.g. the top 50 by xp or something) 20180506 22:17:04< aeth> It would make death pretty tough, though, and losses where the leader falls last would also be pretty tough. 20180506 22:17:52< aeth> Perhaps the fairest way to prevent a death spiral would be to make dead units still recallable in the *next* game, just out for the *current* game. 20180506 22:17:54< Ravana_> and with undead recall dead units too 20180506 22:18:36< aeth> The xp threshold would have to be raised from 70%... maybe set to 250% or something. 20180506 22:19:52<+discordbot2> That would make each game have a lot less units leveled, though 20180506 22:20:22<+discordbot2> If anything, just penalize the unit's current experience level between games 20180506 22:20:32< aeth> Visage, but if units are never killed and are just taken out of a game and are still recallable in the next game, it won't take long until you have max-level units even at 100%. Maybe a week or two 20180506 22:20:44< aeth> Perhaps keep XP at 100% and have death of a unit have the unit *lose* some xp though 20180506 22:20:55<+discordbot2> Yeah, that's what I was thinking 20180506 22:21:29<+discordbot2> A unit that lives through the game would get 50% of its current XP when it starts the next game 20180506 22:21:43< aeth> Maybe even have a unit lose a full level on death (would be tricky to determine what to demote it to if there are two units that promote into the same unit type, unless it stores the original) except to level 0 (which would be unfair, and there aren't enough level 0s for that) 20180506 22:21:59<+discordbot2> Won't you just be able to steamroll 20180506 22:22:00<+discordbot2> like 20180506 22:22:04<+discordbot2> Keep up a win streak 20180506 22:22:07<+discordbot2> Every single time 20180506 22:22:13< aeth> essentially 5->4, 4->3, 3->2, 2->1, 1->1 (just resets the stored xp), 0->0 (just resets the stored xp) on death. 20180506 22:22:15<+discordbot2> Because you'll have lvl 2s against lvl 1s 20180506 22:22:18<+discordbot2> A unit that dies would be reset to level 1, credited with all the XP that it had for each level lost, then the XP is halved before applying 20180506 22:22:31< aeth> I'm not sure, is there a way to adjust the recall cost so it's not a flat 20 gold? 20180506 22:22:46< aeth> If the recall cost actually was the recruitment cost of the unit, it might be fairer, although still somewhat unfair. 20180506 22:23:09< aeth> Although you could still game that by having lots of units a few xp from promotion 20180506 22:23:25<+discordbot2> And you can still guarantee the traits you want 20180506 22:23:37< aeth> Go Undead and guarantee the traits you want every game! 20180506 22:23:44<+discordbot2> πŸ™„ 20180506 22:23:49<+discordbot2> fearless. 20180506 22:24:00<+discordbot2> :bowman: 20180506 22:24:30< aeth> Visage, your halved xp on demotion thing sounds fair, although that could still be exploited, I guess. You could use it to switch promotion branches of a unit. 20180506 22:26:41< aeth> But, ultimately, the point of XP save isn't to be fair. 20180506 22:26:49< aeth> It's to appeal to people who like grinding. 20180506 22:27:21< aeth> In fact, there probably should be some sort of "prestige" level for units to reset their promotion to the start and cycle it over, with some modifier tallying how often it has been reset. 20180506 22:27:45< aeth> So the really good players, going for that tally, wouldn't keep their units at max level 20180506 22:27:55< aeth> People love counters, ask the TF2 designers. 20180506 22:27:57<+discordbot2> Yeah those are all good ideas for mods. 20180506 22:28:08<+discordbot2> use it with Reign of the Lords era. level 5s for everyone! 20180506 22:28:47<+discordbot2> Mods I'll never use since I don't even play multiplayer and I'm a vanilla person. 20180506 22:29:13< aeth> Well... it could apply to some single-player, I guess. 20180506 22:29:29<+discordbot2> Vanilla. 20180506 22:29:31< aeth> There probably wouldn't be a way to stop people grinding on bots on single player scenarios and then taking their units into multiplayer. 20180506 22:30:01-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180506 22:30:32< aeth> In fact, it'd probably be most fun in survival MP scenarios, i.e. PvE 20180506 22:30:40< Ravana_> yes, my idea was just counters and stats, no recruits 20180506 22:31:16< aeth> Ravana_: but I think there would be a certain amount of fun to playing survival PvE MP scenarios with the same units across sessions 20180506 22:31:37< aeth> I joked about using it to beat up newbies, but if I did make this mod, I'd personally only use it in PvE 20180506 22:31:44< aeth> There'd be something too unfair about PvPing with it 20180506 22:32:13< Ravana_> if I ever get around to adding endless waves to orocia this could be useful 20180506 22:32:20< aeth> You'd probably either have to play very hard PvE scenarios or make special scenarios for this 20180506 22:32:28<+discordbot2> >buys first recruit wave >gets ganked by a team of max level skirmishers 20180506 22:32:40< aeth> Nah, think about the Rebels. 20180506 22:32:47< aeth> You can max out the mage and the elvish shaman. 20180506 22:32:51< aeth> All 5 branches. 20180506 22:32:56<+discordbot2> damnit 20180506 22:33:04<+discordbot2> Not only that, think of the special items you could cross-pollinate between games 20180506 22:33:14<+discordbot2> That'd be kinda hilarious, actually 20180506 22:33:31<+discordbot2> I've never even seen a lvl 3 mage in mp 20180506 22:33:49< aeth> You can see it from time to time in particularly long running games, which are usually PvE 20180506 22:33:55< Ravana_> only in royal rumble 20180506 22:34:01<+discordbot2> How balanced is the eastern europe mode actually 20180506 22:34:53<+discordbot2> 25 20180506 22:46:29-!- Smedles [~quassel@101.166.201.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180506 22:54:47-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180506 23:01:48<+discordbot2> Ok, here's how a Wesnoth flanking system should work, maybe: There's a system of "freedom points", and a unit with a negative total of points gets a penalty to defense. This penalty is a 5% reduction in the defense score, per point. (50% defense with 10 points becomes 25%, not 0%) The unit gets a positive balance of points equal to times the number of hexes it could move into (so a total of 5 hexes for a unit that's 20180506 23:01:48<+discordbot2> adjacent to one enemy) Any empty hex of the 6 surrounding that has enemy ZoC on it (and the enemy can move there) applies -1 point to the total. Any hex of the 6 surrounding with an enemy in it applies a penalty to the point total equal to the level of that enemy. Level 1 unit, surrounded by 3 level 1 enemies and 3 friendlies = 3 - 3 = no penalty Level 1 with 3 level 1's on one side = 3 - 5 = 2 point penalty Level 2 with 3 level 1's on one side 20180506 23:01:49<+discordbot2> = 6 - 5 = no penalty Level 1 with 2 level 1's on opposite sides = 4 - 6 = 2 point penalty Level 2 with 2 level 1's on opposite sides = 8 - 6 = no penalty Level 2 with 2 level 2's on opposite sides = 8 - 8 = no penalty This makes higher-leveled units both more resistant to flanking and better at flanking. Thoughts? 20180506 23:02:42<+discordbot2> @Rhike 20180506 23:02:46<+discordbot2> πŸ‘€ 20180506 23:04:53<+discordbot2> hm 20180506 23:05:00<+discordbot2> as far as I am concerned I'm tired to be concerned 20180506 23:05:10<+discordbot2> So you'll have to gank with your leader or something 20180506 23:05:26<+discordbot2> gank the damn f00tpads 20180506 23:05:38<+discordbot2> and little shamans :P 20180506 23:05:46<+discordbot2> No, because you entirely remove the bonus by fully surrounding a unit 20180506 23:06:15-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180506 23:06:43<+discordbot2> Oh I see 20180506 23:06:49<+discordbot2> That's a great system I'd wager 20180506 23:07:10<+discordbot2> on the other side of the scale this totally screws up trolls etc. giving them no chance to evade, ever, right? 20180506 23:07:14<+discordbot2> (when surrounded) 20180506 23:07:28<+discordbot2> It's a % reduction in defense 20180506 23:07:34<+discordbot2> oh ok 20180506 23:07:36<+discordbot2> not a straight reduction to the defense 20180506 23:07:37<+discordbot2> :P 20180506 23:07:38<+discordbot2> told you I'm tired 20180506 23:07:43<+discordbot2> I understand 20180506 23:07:48<+discordbot2> lol 20180506 23:07:50<+discordbot2> thought it was flat 20180506 23:08:03<+discordbot2> (50% defense with 10 points becomes 25%, not 0%) 20180506 23:08:04<+discordbot2> gtg work 20180506 23:10:13<+discordbot2> The unit gets a positive balance of points equal to times the number of hexes it could move into should be it could move into or taken by allies afai understand 20180506 23:10:50<+discordbot2> It can still technically move into hexes that are occupied by allies, it just can't stay there 20180506 23:11:02<+discordbot2> πŸ˜› 20180506 23:11:06<+discordbot2> ok if you look at it like this 20180506 23:11:59<+discordbot2> what about edge cases like that super heavy human infantry that had 4 movement afair and movement in mountains cost 3, if it got slowed it wouldn't be able to move into the mountain 20180506 23:12:16<+discordbot2> does it count as free, enemy or neutral or what I just described isnt the case 20180506 23:12:48<+discordbot2> So a footpad with 70% defense that's fully surrounded with level 1s would have -6 points and therefore 49% defense. 20180506 23:12:52<+discordbot2> and obstacles in general, like deep water or abyss for regular ground units 20180506 23:13:02<+discordbot2> Right 20180506 23:13:03<+discordbot2> So 20180506 23:13:10<+discordbot2> uhhh 20180506 23:13:13<+discordbot2> πŸ€” 20180506 23:13:29<+discordbot2> I'm not actually sure about the edge case with the slowed HI 20180506 23:13:43<+discordbot2> on one hand you definitely couldn't dodge there, but you aren't threatened from that side either 20180506 23:13:54<+discordbot2> ....I call it an obstacle for the HI 20180506 23:13:58<+discordbot2> Ok 20180506 23:13:59<+discordbot2> So 20180506 23:14:14<+discordbot2> Say you're a horse, and there's a peak next to you, with a dorf threatening you 20180506 23:14:22<+discordbot2> Horse does not get benefit from the peak 20180506 23:14:31<+discordbot2> Dwarf gets to count it as a ZoC square 20180506 23:15:12<+discordbot2> (though, curiously, the flanking total will be reduced if there's an enemy bat on the peak) 20180506 23:15:17<+discordbot2> (maybe I should fix that) 20180506 23:16:06<+discordbot2> that's a choice between reducing the defense of someone guarding a choke point and making his defense safe in a way 20180506 23:16:45<+discordbot2> imagine a one hex wide choke point, a bridge between abysses or a streak of shallow water between deep waters 20180506 23:16:59<+discordbot2> should a lone defender have an easier or harder time stalling that point 20180506 23:17:51<+discordbot2> If his opponents can move into that square, then he will have a hard time 20180506 23:17:56<+discordbot2> If not, he'll have an easy time 20180506 23:18:50<+discordbot2> yeah but I'm asking you with regard to your newly conceived system 20180506 23:19:21<+discordbot2> oh god 20180506 23:19:27<+discordbot2> no, I'm going to sleep 20180506 23:19:36<+discordbot2> I just read the part about ZoC 20180506 23:19:47<+discordbot2> lul 20180506 23:20:06<+discordbot2> Good night πŸ˜› 20180506 23:20:15<+discordbot2> I mean read as in read and understood 20180506 23:20:19<+discordbot2> yep, good night 20180506 23:43:17<+discordbot2> do i steal villages from allies or can i rest at them? 20180506 23:43:31<+discordbot2> You steal 20180506 23:43:58<+discordbot2> There might be an option to give them back afterwards, at least in some mods πŸ€” --- Log closed Mon May 07 00:00:07 2018