--- Log opened Mon May 07 00:00:07 2018 20180507 00:04:10<+discordbot2> This on steam, any ideas?: "Thats what has me confused I redownladed Wesnoth (its been a bit and since then I have a new rig) so yes I have got it off of steam and downloaded the add ons from there, all of them campaigns but I'm not finding them on the bottom as I should, I look back and it says they have been downloaded but not in the campaign list" 20180507 00:07:29<+discordbot2> is he sure what he downloaded were campaigns? 20180507 00:10:02<+discordbot2> They could be "multiplayer campaign"s 20180507 00:10:07-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511E35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 00:10:11<+discordbot2> Which show up in the multiplayer menu, obviously 20180507 00:10:13<+discordbot2> lol 20180507 00:10:30<+discordbot2> He should restart game 20180507 00:10:39<+discordbot2> I had that 20180507 00:34:20<+discordbot2> Yeah, I've asked him which campaigns...wait and see, I guess. 20180507 00:41:40<+discordbot2> KISS campaign? 20180507 00:49:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180507 00:59:12-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511E35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180507 01:07:09-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 01:07:15-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 01:16:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 01:17:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 01:25:12<+discordbot2> wut does that kiss stand for? xd sounds funny 20180507 01:33:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 01:33:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 01:34:05<+discordbot2> Keep It Simple, Stupid 20180507 01:42:01<+discordbot2> server just died? 20180507 02:03:05<+discordbot2> It’s fine for me right now 20180507 02:07:01<+discordbot2> did any of you guys find wesnoth's inconsistent damage calculation is a bit infuriating 20180507 02:07:41<+discordbot2> those 0.5 damages that were rounded down instead of up which literally means no damage buff you gained from the -10%/-30%/-50% type of weaknesses 20180507 02:08:21<+discordbot2> for example, you pick elf vs drake, your archer sux with dextrous trait, only 40% chance you get the 6-4 dmg ones to do some real work 20180507 02:08:34<+discordbot2> 5-4 vs -10% pierce armor drakes, you do 5-4 dmg 20180507 02:08:56<+discordbot2> but with 6-4 dex elves, you do 7-4 dmg. that is 8 more damage per singular hex 20180507 02:09:29<+discordbot2> elf archer is either total garbage or god vs drake becaz dat dex trait calculation 20180507 02:11:02<+discordbot2> it allows you to outburst damage in very particular case luck starting from your most basic recruits 20180507 02:11:37<+discordbot2> you got bunch of dex elf archer you easily maul the drake player. otherwise you get mauled caz you cant kill even one of them 20180507 02:13:50<+discordbot2> other examples are like: 20180507 02:14:27< celticminstrel> IIRC it does try to make sure rounding happens only once at the end of all calculations... 20180507 02:14:45<+discordbot2> 1. your elf fighter do 5-4 dmg, if not strong it do 5-4 dmg to saurians 20180507 02:14:51< celticminstrel> I don't remember whether it does to-nearest or to-zero rounding. 20180507 02:14:57<+discordbot2> howerver if hes strong it do 7-4 dmg 20180507 02:15:36<+discordbot2> you know what I think it should be just simplified as 4.5/5.5/6.5 do 5/6/7 dmg instead of 4/5/6 20180507 02:15:54< mattsc> No, it shouldn’t. 20180507 02:15:57< celticminstrel> So you're saying it rounds towards zero? 20180507 02:15:59<+discordbot2> wesnoth's rounding down system are creating the dmg gap of 6-8 differences 20180507 02:16:09<+discordbot2> that is very huge in 1v1s 20180507 02:16:17<+discordbot2> three hexes, you get good traits 20180507 02:16:22< mattsc> It rounds _toward_ the unmodified damage, and that is, in fact, done for consistency. 20180507 02:16:22<+discordbot2> you do 24 more dmg 20180507 02:16:25<+discordbot2> thats insane 20180507 02:16:41< celticminstrel> Wait, it rounds towards the base damage? 20180507 02:16:47< mattsc> yes 20180507 02:16:55< mattsc> No matter how you do it, there’ll always be cases where it matters more or less. 20180507 02:17:03<+discordbot2> 6.6=7 20180507 02:17:10<+discordbot2> 5.5=5 20180507 02:17:11< celticminstrel> So if the base damage is 4, 4.5 and 3.5 round to 4, and 5.5 rounds to 5 but 2.5 rounds to 3? 20180507 02:17:28< mattsc> @Flameheart Yes. that is intentional. 20180507 02:17:32< celticminstrel> That's actually... really weird, though I dunno if it's bad. 20180507 02:17:36<+discordbot2> there is little fairness you find your unit do 5-4 dmg when you vs a -10% kind of armor 20180507 02:17:49<+discordbot2> while strong/dexrous counterpart can do 7-4 20180507 02:17:57< mattsc> Say you have a 10-damage chaotic unit. 20180507 02:17:57<+discordbot2> its even a tier of difference 20180507 02:18:16<+discordbot2> most of the units in wesnoth do like 5 or 7 dmg per shot 20180507 02:18:25< mattsc> During the night, you get 12.5 - if you round up, that would be a 3-damage bonus. 20180507 02:18:28<+discordbot2> 10 is relatively rare to make the meta fair 20180507 02:18:42< mattsc> During the day, it’s 7.5. If you round up, it’s only a 2-damage penalty. 20180507 02:18:56< mattsc> I don’t care what the number is. This is an example. 20180507 02:19:19< mattsc> I am explaining the reasoning why it is done this way. 20180507 02:19:34<+discordbot2> but you do 7-4 dmg vs a -10% kind of armor, that is 16.7% of buff it gained instead of 10% 20180507 02:19:38< mattsc> You can make the same example with a +/-10 resistance and 5 damage. 20180507 02:19:46<+discordbot2> while you do 5-4 dmg vs a -10% armor unit, you gain 0% bonus 20180507 02:19:57<+discordbot2> this is more unfair than the +3/-2 20180507 02:19:58< mattsc> Yep. 20180507 02:20:12< mattsc> This is how it works. 20180507 02:20:27<+discordbot2> thats how it creates the inconsistencies of output 20180507 02:20:30< mattsc> If you round the other way, there’ll be examples just like that for other cases. 20180507 02:20:42< mattsc> It’s not inconsistent. 20180507 02:20:52<+discordbot2> and makes 1v1 meta like I would give 40% rely on RNG for recruits 20180507 02:20:54< celticminstrel> weird ≠ inconsistent 20180507 02:20:59< mattsc> It might be different from what you expect, but it’s not inconsistent. 20180507 02:21:04<+discordbot2> okay, then its weird 20180507 02:21:10< mattsc> Sure. 20180507 02:21:27< mattsc> That’s why I am explaining how it is done, and also why it is done this way. :) 20180507 02:22:19< mattsc> As I said, if the code did it the other way, there’s be other cases that would be just as “unfair”. 20180507 02:30:16<+discordbot2> it would be fair you do 6-4 dmg normal/7-4 dmg strong 20180507 02:30:24<+discordbot2> than 7-4 strong/5-4 normal 20180507 02:30:37<+discordbot2> in fact, you know what matt 20180507 02:30:44<+discordbot2> it appears everywhere in wesnoth... 20180507 02:30:56<+discordbot2> for example you orc tier 2 warrior do 10-3 dmg 20180507 02:31:07<+discordbot2> night do 12-3 because it round towards base dmg from 12.5 20180507 02:31:14<+discordbot2> but strong ones do 14-3 dmg 20180507 02:31:41<+discordbot2> because it is 11x1.25=13.75 20180507 02:31:54<+discordbot2> thats ACTUALLY the method you beat SOTBE 20180507 02:32:00<+discordbot2> you S/L spam strong grunt 20180507 02:32:09<+discordbot2> 😅 20180507 02:33:15< mattsc> @Flameheart It’s not any more “unfair” than it would be if you rounded the other way for other cases. 20180507 02:33:33<+discordbot2> then how about this: 20180507 02:33:39< mattsc> No, just stop, please. 20180507 02:33:47<+discordbot2> ...... 20180507 02:34:11< mattsc> Well, sorry, I should not have said that. 20180507 02:34:15< mattsc> I apologize. 20180507 02:34:28< mattsc> You can continue, but I will not engage in this argument further. 20180507 02:35:26< mattsc> If you round 0.5 up or down, you’ll get unexpected/weird/somethingsomething behavior one way or the other. 20180507 02:35:47< mattsc> It’ll be off by exactly 1 HP in one direction or the other. 20180507 02:35:59< mattsc> And either way, you can find examples for this behavior. 20180507 02:36:13<+discordbot2> 😅 20180507 02:36:20<+discordbot2> you said you not gonna argue no more 20180507 02:36:30< mattsc> True. 20180507 02:36:32< mattsc> :P 20180507 02:36:40< mattsc> I am repeating my bottom line. 20180507 02:36:46<+discordbot2> I actually wouldnt care anyways becaz I think if change that would be a big 20180507 02:36:49<+discordbot2> big big change 20180507 02:36:57<+discordbot2> caz its everywhere 20180507 02:37:08< mattsc> Agreed. 20180507 02:37:29<+discordbot2> is it coded into the game's intrinsic mechanism 20180507 02:37:33< mattsc> What I am trying to say is that of it were the other way around, it’d also be everywhere. 20180507 02:37:40<+discordbot2> or this calculation can actually be modded in add-ons? 20180507 02:37:54<+discordbot2> or, elsewise 20180507 02:38:01<+discordbot2> we x10 all values in wesnoth 20180507 02:38:07<+discordbot2> so 6.5 appears perfectly as 65 20180507 02:38:11< celticminstrel> I don't believe the rounding method can be modified by addons. 20180507 02:38:13<+discordbot2> instead of 7 or 6 20180507 02:38:13< mattsc> I believe that this is in the base mechanics. 20180507 02:38:22<+discordbot2> can it be modded 20180507 02:38:25<+discordbot2> into add-ons 20180507 02:38:29< mattsc> Yeah, we should go to fraction HP. ;) 20180507 02:38:35< celticminstrel> Please read what I just said. 20180507 02:38:56<+discordbot2> I thought matt might have some different ideas tho 20180507 02:38:58<+discordbot2> caz hes good modder 20180507 02:39:14<+discordbot2> its not like he can do anything, but I saw he did rly crazy stuff before 20180507 02:39:15< mattsc> I’m not sure about thar … :P 20180507 02:39:25<+discordbot2> You could probably change it with an event that recalculates the damage :P 20180507 02:39:31<+discordbot2> actually 20180507 02:39:32<+discordbot2> no 20180507 02:39:38<+discordbot2> we dont need to change dat shit at all 20180507 02:39:44<+discordbot2> just x10 ALL units and values 20180507 02:39:48<+discordbot2> guys, we now have #modding to discuss creating add-ons. Please try to keep this discussion there 20180507 02:40:22<+discordbot2> no, this isnt rly about modding details and techniques tho.... 20180507 02:40:30<+discordbot2> I just wonder if its possible 20180507 02:40:31< mattsc> @Vultraz That part only came up in the last couple minutes. IT was not about modding, but about the basic game mechanics before that. 20180507 02:40:34<+discordbot2> 🤔 20180507 02:40:41<+discordbot2> ah 20180507 02:40:42<+discordbot2> alright 20180507 02:40:47<+discordbot2> just mentioning it 20180507 02:40:55< mattsc> Thanks. 20180507 02:41:10<+discordbot2> anyways I go try something else cool 20180507 02:41:12<+discordbot2> see ya guys 20180507 02:41:16<+discordbot2> 😄 20180507 02:41:19< mattsc> @Flameheart I think something like what @Visage just said is probably the only chance you have for that. 20180507 02:41:21<+discordbot2> and thanks vul matt 20180507 02:41:26<+discordbot2> (and celmin yes the creation of more channels means you'll need to get on discord or you'll miss stuff( 20180507 02:42:11< mattsc> @Flameheart No worries and thanks for being a bit … harsh there for a moment. Wasn’t what I intended. :P 20180507 02:42:21< mattsc> s/thanks/sorry 20180507 02:42:24< mattsc> phbt 20180507 02:42:41< celticminstrel> Sorry, no thanks. 20180507 02:42:53< mattsc> right ^ 20180507 02:43:23< celticminstrel> I still see zero benefit to be getting on Discord. 20180507 02:43:27< celticminstrel> ^to me 20180507 02:44:40< celticminstrel> Also IMO it's kinda pointless to push all the modding discussion to a new channel, because it'll almost certainly continue to be discussed in this channel anyway. 20180507 02:45:18< celticminstrel> I can kinda see why you'd want to now that this channel is more active with the Discord bridge, mind you. 20180507 02:45:21<+discordbot2> the modding channel has only 3 person said hello 20180507 02:45:32< celticminstrel> Heh. 20180507 02:45:34<+discordbot2> \ 20180507 02:45:34<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442879625199222794/unknown.png 20180507 02:45:43< celticminstrel> FTR I'm always open for questions about modding. 20180507 02:48:00< celticminstrel> Though some things are definitely better discussed on the forums IMO. 20180507 03:28:28<+discordbot2> is there a way to run a dedicted server of this game? 20180507 03:28:38<+discordbot2> yes 20180507 03:28:42<+discordbot2> you buy a server 20180507 03:28:49<+discordbot2> donate it to admins 20180507 03:28:54<+discordbot2> ta~da done 20180507 03:29:06<+discordbot2> jk I totally have no idea 20180507 03:33:08<+discordbot2> there are some none official servers running... will look into that then. 20180507 03:33:40<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442891731625705484/unknown.png 20180507 03:34:19<+discordbot2> i doubt this server has been swarmed down by zombie smurfs somehow 20180507 03:38:08-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180507 03:39:45-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 03:49:53<+discordbot2> @kikaza lol kikissa instead of kikaza xd 20180507 03:50:07<+discordbot2> oh man this is cute... xD 20180507 03:50:33<+discordbot2> but yeah it stands for Keep it Simple, Stupid (ahaha) lol 20180507 03:52:54<+discordbot2> it is a very good game design concept; its why we have versions 20180507 03:53:09<+discordbot2> our first original version for any given game is essentially very simplistic 20180507 03:53:16<+discordbot2> then we gradually develop them and make new versions 20180507 03:53:32<+discordbot2> so yeah ＼(^o^)／ 20180507 03:56:33<+discordbot2> also greenghost sounds like a cool name lol :]] lmao thats a lot of smurfs.. xD 20180507 04:06:38-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180507 04:16:01<+discordbot2> if my unit levels on enemy turn i don't get to choose path? 20180507 04:16:27<+discordbot2> you need to use the plan your advancement mod if you want to choose 20180507 04:16:49<+discordbot2> in default an advancement is selected at random 20180507 04:26:04<+discordbot2> Could we possibly be allowed to change our nicks on this server so we can identify as our wesnoth forum handle? 20180507 04:29:00<+discordbot2> We don’t generally grant nickname changes but we do evaluate such requests on a case-by-case basis 20180507 04:29:08-!- HeyCitizen [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180507 04:29:22<+discordbot2> ah k' 20180507 04:29:30<+discordbot2> What would yours be? 20180507 04:29:36<+discordbot2> StandYourGround 20180507 04:29:48<+discordbot2> Okay, done. 20180507 04:30:01<+discordbot2> Thanks 20180507 04:30:47<+discordbot2> Say, is IftU coming to 1.14? I'm willing to playtest 20180507 04:31:05<+discordbot2> shadowm is working on it 20180507 04:31:12<+discordbot2> (soonTM) 20180507 04:31:27<+discordbot2> ™ 20180507 04:31:32<+discordbot2> exactly 20180507 04:37:46<+discordbot2> How i host multiplayer match 20180507 04:39:32<+discordbot2> log on the server, click create game from the menu on the right, and go through the rest of the steps? 20180507 04:39:39<+discordbot2> which part are you stuck on? 20180507 04:40:20-!- HeyCitizen [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 04:42:02<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442908934085541889/IMG_20180505_112732.jpg 20180507 04:42:38<+discordbot2> this happens when you click on what? 20180507 04:43:26<+discordbot2> If i click host own game 20180507 04:43:38<+discordbot2> Did you install through Steam? 20180507 04:43:57<+discordbot2> Yeees 20180507 04:43:58<+discordbot2> Also, you realise that option is for hosting LAN games, right? 20180507 04:44:06<+discordbot2> Okay 20180507 05:04:55< celticminstrel> I have no idea how to ping Tempus Thales but the server software is distributed with the game so if you have a place to host it it's probably not that hard to set up your own server. 20180507 05:05:28-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180507 05:16:07-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 06:02:11-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 06:05:48-!- lipkab [~the_new_l@109-61-8-190.adsl-fix.dravanet.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 06:24:52-!- gallaecio [~quassel@148.red-83-37-165.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 06:29:40-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 06:44:26-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 07:53:45<+discordbot2> shit 20180507 07:53:50<+discordbot2> I found something bad 20180507 07:54:47<+discordbot2> the add-on server now only has like 50-100 UMCs 20180507 07:55:08<+discordbot2> there used to be maybe ten times more than this 20180507 07:55:33<+discordbot2> Um 20180507 07:55:45<+discordbot2> ... we just started a new addon server instance back with... 1.13.12 I think? 20180507 07:56:04<+discordbot2> so you mean the UMC makers did not yet move it to 1.14 20180507 07:56:16<+discordbot2> and when they catch up it will be lot better? 20180507 07:56:21<+discordbot2> ....yes? 20180507 07:56:24<+discordbot2> hmm 20180507 07:56:26<+discordbot2> okay! 20180507 07:56:26<+discordbot2> I'm not sure why you assume differently 20180507 07:56:42<+discordbot2> no, I thought it was catastrophic 20180507 07:56:46<+discordbot2> if like 20180507 07:57:02<+discordbot2> the game would lose so many addons for one updates 20180507 07:57:18<+discordbot2> how long has 1.14 been released tho? 20180507 07:57:26<+discordbot2> ....less than a week 20180507 07:57:27<+discordbot2> 7 days. 20180507 07:57:30<+discordbot2> lol 20180507 07:57:36<+discordbot2> alright then it should be fine 20180507 07:57:43<+discordbot2> Or 6 days and 12 hours. 20180507 07:57:52<+discordbot2> most of the addon creators may have not submitted their stuff yet 20180507 07:58:02<+discordbot2> Yeah, you're looking too much into this. 20180507 07:58:03-!- Smedles [~quassel@101.166.201.190] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 07:58:09<+discordbot2> yeah I over worried 20180507 07:58:12<+discordbot2> It's not easy to port an add-on but it's necessary every time. 20180507 07:59:04<+discordbot2> do you guys have some stats about how many addon makers are still active? 20180507 07:59:21<+discordbot2> No. 20180507 08:00:15<+discordbot2> 🤔 alrigh 20180507 08:20:31<+discordbot2> @Crimson_Conure pls no xD if anything kiko not kikissa xD 20180507 08:21:15<+discordbot2> i have yet to try add ons :o always played vanilla. 20180507 08:27:54<+discordbot2> Heey guys 20180507 08:29:59<+discordbot2> yeah bro 20180507 08:30:02<+discordbot2> wutz up 20180507 08:30:38<+discordbot2> this game is awesome 😄 20180507 08:30:57<+discordbot2> I created 1vs1vs1 if you wanna play 20180507 08:32:43<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442966995042828298/unknown.png 20180507 08:32:54<+discordbot2> wut the faq is this mod 20180507 08:33:09<+discordbot2> anyone tried this before? 20180507 08:42:15<+discordbot2> does the steam version have cloud save? 20180507 08:42:39<+discordbot2> Yes. 20180507 08:42:42<+discordbot2> god bless 20180507 08:43:17<+discordbot2> Steam Cloud isn't natively supported, but we have entered the save path to Steam's configuration. 20180507 08:44:22<+discordbot2> about cloud save I got a question tho 20180507 08:44:28<+discordbot2> does that mean if I play offline 20180507 08:44:32<+discordbot2> get some save files 20180507 08:44:37<+discordbot2> put into my steam folder 20180507 08:44:42<+discordbot2> lol but your picture has a cute couple kissing xD @kikaza ahahahahaa sorry for the name joke tho xD i just wanted to be cute myself OwO 20180507 08:44:43<+discordbot2> ahahaha 20180507 08:44:44<+discordbot2> it can sync with steam cloud? 20180507 08:45:02<+discordbot2> Yes, it should sync. 20180507 08:45:09<+discordbot2> AWESOME 20180507 08:45:16<+discordbot2> does it work with earlier versions tho? 20180507 08:45:30<+discordbot2> I had tons of UMC and reps from 1.12 and 1.10 20180507 08:45:50<+discordbot2> Maybe, maybe not. 20180507 08:46:04<+discordbot2> Different major versions of Wesnoth aren't fully compatible. 20180507 08:46:28<+discordbot2> 🤔 alright 20180507 08:46:31<+discordbot2> I will just try 20180507 08:53:57<+discordbot2> :( 20180507 08:54:07<+discordbot2> Chess membership expired 20180507 09:03:19-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 09:03:28< hk238> hi 20180507 09:04:57< hk238> I was thinking about it would be neat to have a chess scenario for wesnoth such that you'd have each of the default factions available with minute differences in how the pieces move 20180507 09:05:54< hk238> although I suppose hexgrid might not suffice for that due to there being less adjacent hexes, althoug strictly adjacent hexes are more numerous, the diagonal neighbours that share a vertex increase the adjacent squares to 8 for regular grid 20180507 09:10:56< hk238> but it might be doable 20180507 09:11:37<+discordbot2> btw guys 20180507 09:11:42<+discordbot2> I had a forum acc ages ago 20180507 09:11:50<+discordbot2> but I forgot the email I registered it 20180507 09:11:51<+discordbot2> and password 20180507 09:11:55<+discordbot2> how to find it back? 20180507 09:12:20<+discordbot2> If you don't know the account name and the email there's not much we can do. 20180507 09:14:00<+discordbot2> ah nvm I think I saved it somewhere in my old pc 20180507 09:14:12<+discordbot2> would just take bit of time to find it back 20180507 09:18:49<+discordbot2> where can I find the installation folder of the downloaded addons? 20180507 09:19:31<+discordbot2> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/EditingWesnoth#The_user_data_directory 20180507 09:19:42<+discordbot2> thx I take a look 20180507 09:20:16<+discordbot2> In the past have the dev version (ie 1.11) addons servers carried on to the release version (1.12)? 20180507 09:20:24<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442978985530490882/unknown.png 20180507 09:20:29<+discordbot2> ??? I had no user data folder 20180507 09:20:43<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442979063855054850/unknown.png 20180507 09:21:20<+discordbot2> The userdata folder isn't in Wesnoth's install folder. See "How to get there" in the same page. 20180507 09:21:29<+discordbot2> k 20180507 09:22:43<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442979577992577044/unknown.png 20180507 09:22:50<+discordbot2> bit weird tho I thought I did alright 20180507 09:23:00<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/442979648096174100/unknown.png 20180507 09:23:16<+discordbot2> I have saves but no userdata folder... 20180507 09:23:20<+discordbot2> 🤔 20180507 09:23:21<+discordbot2> ??? 20180507 09:23:32<+discordbot2> Nope, you want to do to my documents, My games, Wesnoth 20180507 09:23:59<+discordbot2> YES 20180507 09:24:02<+discordbot2> FOUND IT 20180507 09:24:07<+discordbot2> thanks bro @UnwiseOwl 20180507 10:31:03-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@83.240.61.16] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 10:31:27-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@83.240.61.16] has quit [Changing host] 20180507 10:31:27-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@wesnoth/translator/VladimirSlavik] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 10:38:49-!- rodix [uid5578@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ysspudqamweekuby] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 10:40:50-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 11:33:34-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 12:48:08-!- rodix [uid5578@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ysspudqamweekuby] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180507 12:52:43-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 13:03:40-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-91-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 13:09:41<+discordbot2> been playing Secrets of the Ancients, definetly pretty good 20180507 13:10:05<+discordbot2> i like its progressive style, i definetly think that the progression to necromancy is done a bit better than Descent into Darkness 20180507 13:10:58<+discordbot2> i like some of the unique twists in it too from a gameplay perspective 20180507 13:11:10-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: loonycyborg, DeFender1031 20180507 13:11:12-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 13:12:38-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 13:20:49-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 13:23:26-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 14:01:27<+discordbot2> @Botion Man why am i here 20180507 14:01:34<+discordbot2> why did you invite me to this place 20180507 14:03:56<+discordbot2> Bc I did 20180507 14:04:12<+discordbot2> @The Lord of Frui'ts 20180507 14:04:18<+discordbot2> but why 20180507 14:04:21<+discordbot2> what even is this 20180507 14:04:59<+discordbot2> A game 20180507 14:07:25<+discordbot2> how to play 20180507 14:07:27<+discordbot2> teach me 20180507 14:07:30<+discordbot2> i must kill everyone 20180507 14:07:47<+discordbot2> Yes! 20180507 14:07:59<+discordbot2> GENOCIDE IS THE ANSWER 20180507 14:08:07<+discordbot2> so uh is that a option or not 20180507 14:16:06<+discordbot2> Welcome, comrade, to the mystical world of Irdya. 20180507 14:17:25<+discordbot2> You can't genocide civilians*, in case that happens to be something you're interested in, but if you want you can kill everyone on the enemy side. (there might be add-ons that allow you to genocide civilians. shrug.) 20180507 14:17:56<+discordbot2> It wouldn't be efficient, but anything's an option if you want to enjoy yourself. 20180507 14:35:15<+discordbot2> Thank you for the information this will be useful 20180507 14:38:22-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180507 14:46:46<+discordbot2> hk238 interesting ide 20180507 14:47:31<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/443061307038629908/image.jpg 20180507 14:47:38<+discordbot2> Wonder if u can implement squares in wesnoth with some hacky thingy but then again one needs to KISS xDD ahaha 20180507 14:50:45< hk238> I guess you can implement squares by ignoring part of the hexes, but that would kind of ugly and if it's not doable with hexes then probably not worthwhile either 20180507 14:51:32<+discordbot2> lol would be cute though, just imagine a dainty little corpse walking on a square fair and square xD a fair square 😆 20180507 14:51:49< hk238> basically choosing different ways for the pieces to move is a little more limited when you consider the closest 2 neighbours 20180507 14:51:57<+discordbot2> true 20180507 14:52:21< hk238> so you could choose the 3 closest neighbours but then the movement would kind of sparse 20180507 14:52:33< hk238> but I think you could do it 20180507 14:52:45<+discordbot2> hmmmmmm 20180507 14:53:42< hk238> then you'd have pawns as walking dead for an example for undead and lich would be the king and so on. So you could have a corresponding piece in each faction and maybe 2 pieces that have varying movement depending on faction 20180507 14:53:48<+discordbot2> wait you think I as in me, could do it? 20180507 14:53:55<+discordbot2> Lol i cant code :(( xD 20180507 14:54:04< hk238> probably counting how many possible moves they would have would work somewhat for balancing 20180507 14:54:20< hk238> so if a piece has 8 possible moves then it's probably comparable to another piece with 8 possible moves 20180507 14:54:37< hk238> no I meant you as in the passive 20180507 14:54:45< hk238> someone could do it 20180507 14:54:58<+discordbot2> lol i know i know lol xD just teasing u lmao 20180507 14:55:03<+discordbot2> ahahaha xD 20180507 14:55:13< hk238> oh 20180507 14:57:02<+discordbot2> I mean wesnoth chess exists lol and its pretty sweet 20180507 14:57:21<+discordbot2> Where its a 'chess board' with pawns and kings and others and its hexagonal 20180507 14:59:29<+discordbot2> Ok well... I've gotta go to class now lol xD so see you... @hk238 talk later sweety 🕑 hehe 20180507 15:08:40< hk238> I know there's one made by Coffee 20180507 15:11:07<+discordbot2> @The Lord of Frui'ts PM me if you want more quality advice. 20180507 15:12:58-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 15:18:44<+discordbot2> Just play hexagonal chess. 20180507 15:35:32<+discordbot2> Negative steam review: "Miss Save/Load Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L Miss S/L" 20180507 15:35:46<+discordbot2> Told you guys there would be dumb reviews like this once it hit steam 20180507 15:38:48<+discordbot2> Luckily the majority are reasonable 20180507 15:49:35-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 16:02:44-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 16:02:50-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 16:09:31-!- gallaecio [~quassel@148.red-83-37-165.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 16:25:04<+discordbot2> Yeah i hate joke reviews too :( 20180507 16:29:21<+discordbot2> uh 20180507 16:29:34<+discordbot2> it's like 20180507 16:29:34<+discordbot2> true tho 20180507 16:34:30<+discordbot2> why save after every miss? 20180507 16:35:32<+discordbot2> :run: 20180507 16:35:54<+discordbot2> :P 20180507 16:35:56<+discordbot2> :200IQ: 20180507 16:36:05<+discordbot2> thats a good point.... OwO 20180507 16:36:27<+discordbot2> why is my reaction emoji not team-colored? 20180507 16:36:37<+discordbot2> :bhammer: 20180507 16:36:42<+discordbot2> :bowman: 20180507 16:36:52<+discordbot2> Lol :run: OwO xDD Run cuz he gonna 😘 KISS 20180507 16:36:56<+discordbot2> ahaha 20180507 16:37:22<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/443088952325308418/b228322.jpg 20180507 16:37:33<+discordbot2> are youn unironically using OwO 20180507 16:37:42<+discordbot2> Yes xD :)) 20180507 16:37:49<+discordbot2> I am weird haha 20180507 16:37:54<+discordbot2> gtfo 20180507 16:37:57<+discordbot2> that's scary 20180507 16:38:00<+discordbot2> Why 20180507 16:38:12<+discordbot2> 😨 20180507 16:38:28<+discordbot2> everyone associates it with the copypasta, nobody wants to think about the copypasta, instant fear 20180507 16:38:39<+discordbot2> What is a copypasta..? xD 20180507 16:38:53<+discordbot2> creepypasta* ? 20180507 16:39:01<+discordbot2> anyway dont worry cuz whatever that means, i mean no harm xD 20180507 16:39:15<+discordbot2> you are harming 20180507 16:39:26<+discordbot2> ... how lol 20180507 16:39:45<+discordbot2> Im just a loose screw lol xD OrI 20180507 16:40:09<+discordbot2> there is no emoticon to express how I feel.... ÒwÓ 20180507 16:40:31<+discordbot2> :sof: 20180507 16:40:48<+discordbot2> I also predicted the RNG whinging threads 20180507 16:41:02<+discordbot2> And people wonder why i call u guys cute... xD this kind of stuff is clever and funny 20180507 16:41:08<+discordbot2> hahahahahaha 20180507 16:41:51<+discordbot2> >:^( 20180507 16:42:13<+discordbot2> No! I mean no harm, please dont be angry ;( 20180507 16:42:15<+discordbot2> whinging prediction 20180507 16:42:15<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/443090180555931668/2018-05-08_00_41_32-development.png 20180507 16:42:23<+discordbot2> RNG is a matter of taste. Really I wouldn't mind there being less impact but it affects meta strategy in a different way 20180507 16:42:39<+discordbot2> Lol 'meta' strategy teehee xD 20180507 16:42:58<+discordbot2> lol "strategy" 20180507 16:43:07<+discordbot2> my name is meta mirage cD 20180507 16:43:20<+discordbot2> :bowman: 20180507 16:43:45-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 16:44:16<+discordbot2> it makes it even more awkward when you see his profile pic is an orc 20180507 16:44:33<+discordbot2> Lol oh god you are adorable... sorry to say xD 20180507 16:44:36<+discordbot2> Ahahahaha 20180507 16:44:51<+discordbot2> calm down lmao 20180507 16:44:54<+discordbot2> my picture used to be a japanese girl 20180507 16:44:56<+discordbot2> It's crazy how many emoji I have access to now with Discord Turbo but might be the best 20180507 16:45:00<+discordbot2> we could knock out the DLC requests and the RNG whinging with one stone, by reviving the old Wesnoth Premium joke 20180507 16:45:01<+discordbot2> so... xD 20180507 16:45:20<+discordbot2> tell u what i will change it back cuz i liked it a lot 20180507 16:45:22<+discordbot2> 20180507 16:45:32<+discordbot2> i'm not surprised you're a weeaboo 20180507 16:45:48<+discordbot2> ^ me when I miss 10 straight strikes 20180507 16:46:09<+discordbot2> Im not a weaboo.. xD 20180507 16:46:14<+discordbot2> Weebs miss ten strikes in a row? 20180507 16:46:51<+discordbot2> Im a straight buff male 20180507 16:47:07<+discordbot2> Hmm 20180507 16:47:18<+discordbot2> xD its the truth of the matter... :P 20180507 16:48:09<+discordbot2> daz mee 20180507 16:48:09<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/443091673572966402/image.jpg 20180507 16:48:13<+discordbot2> @living-vs-not-dying if they play enough wesnoth 20180507 16:48:53<+discordbot2> @Crimson_Conure you're clearly a half-gryphon, that doesn't count 20180507 16:49:02<+discordbot2> don't the best of us though 20180507 16:49:25<+discordbot2> Ahaha pydesigner i wish OwO 20180507 16:49:29<+discordbot2> :))))) 20180507 16:49:35< Ravana_> https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/401416655873507350.gif in small size looks like something about APM 20180507 16:49:44-!- Guest66835 [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 16:55:19-!- Guest66835 is now known as Haudegen 20180507 17:00:24-!- lipkabb [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 17:02:20-!- Marcgal [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:9004:710f:5c42:b443] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 17:02:43< Marcgal> There is only 3p colosseum in 1.14 20180507 17:02:48< Marcgal> Is 6p colosseum expected? 20180507 17:02:55-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 17:05:26< hk238> btw in legend of the invincibles is the `staff of Circe` reference to greek mythology? :d 20180507 17:07:20< hk238> the description says "Eurylochus knew he couldn't trust her. It saved his life" I think there was a member in Odysseys' crew named Eurylochus but I think he fell head over heels and was left behind forgotten.. Something like that? But the description would hint that Eurylochus was suspicious of Circe's feast 20180507 17:08:01< hk238> :D 20180507 17:10:28< hk238> oh according to wikipedia it is as it hints 20180507 17:11:09<+discordbot2> Marcgal: presumably that port will happen eventually 20180507 17:11:18< Marcgal> ok 20180507 17:14:40< hk238> I remember incorrectly the one who fell head over heels was Elpenor.. sorry about this intercept I have had a passing interest to Greek mythology 20180507 17:32:53<+discordbot2> I think RNG makes for a more realistic simulation of battles. The majority of attacks are either not going to land, be blocked or be parried / riposted / chambered 20180507 17:33:16<+discordbot2> The idea the some people think landing every hit is more satisfying is really strange to me 20180507 17:33:54<+discordbot2> For me it makes the shots that land more satisfying, and intelligent use of terrain more rewarding 20180507 17:36:45<+discordbot2> I personally think people who usually complain about it are just bad at the game and blaming the RNG for their losses, and they only get satisfaction from winning rather than playing a game to be challenged, and gain the satisfaction from overcoming the odds. 20180507 17:37:26<+discordbot2> Of course it's a matter of taste and that's a broad generalization, but judging from the content of the negative reviews on steam, I think it's fair to say a lot of people are like this. 20180507 17:37:54<+discordbot2> wait 20180507 17:37:58<+discordbot2> how many negative reviews are there? 20180507 17:38:03<+discordbot2> are there actually many/ 20180507 17:38:04<+discordbot2> ? 20180507 17:39:31<+discordbot2> I wouldn't say many, but I'm just saying of the ones there are, they're usually complaining about RNG. It's the same with XCOM and Warhammer Blood Bowl games 20180507 17:40:19-!- vladimirslavik [~vslavik@wesnoth/translator/VladimirSlavik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180507 17:44:10<+discordbot2> 95% positive reviews 20180507 17:44:46< hk238> xcom mentioned 20180507 17:44:47< hk238> :) 20180507 17:46:12< hk238> I finished tftd on hardest difficulty without loading games :o 20180507 17:46:29< hk238> silly to take merit of such :D 20180507 17:46:55<+discordbot2> Turn based strategy games almost always have reasonably significant rng components 20180507 17:47:20<+discordbot2> They just aren't normally so up front about it 20180507 17:47:58< Marcgal> Chess is a turn based strategy 20180507 17:48:04< Marcgal> It has little randomness 20180507 17:48:09< Marcgal> Possible? Possible! 20180507 17:48:36<+discordbot2> I guess Armello and Memoir 1944 have literal die rolls 20180507 17:48:42<+discordbot2> I think chess is more a puzzle game than a strategy game, to be honest. 20180507 17:49:19< hk238> wow you're clearly not a chess player sorry.. I'm not good either but either that or you have a very unorthodox definition of strategy 20180507 17:49:27<+discordbot2> I think that's a bit of an overreduction @jyrkive 20180507 17:50:08<+discordbot2> Marcgal No where did I say it wasn't possible ;) 20180507 17:50:34<+discordbot2> Chess is so far removed from realistic warfare that I think it no longer counts as a strategy game. 20180507 17:50:45< hk238> traditionally the game contains tactical elements and strategic elements. Strategic elements would be for an example having a bishop that's well mobilized, control of center, creating a chain of pawns, having a secured king position.. where as tactical elements would be like puzzles within the next 3-4 moves 20180507 17:51:02< Marcgal> As if Wesnoth wasn't far enough from realistic warfare @jyrkive! 20180507 17:51:07<+discordbot2> There's an entire genre called "abstract strategy" 20180507 17:51:35<+discordbot2> Theme does not determine genre in most cases 20180507 17:51:37< Marcgal> hk238 this 20180507 17:51:41< hk238> strategic elements are that you have goals and things of value that carry over a longer period of time where it's not clear how exactly those valuable items end up benefitting you.. tactical play on the other hand is very sharp and considers very exact sequences 20180507 17:52:45< Marcgal> But to claim Wesnoth is ANYWHERE near realistic...? That's beyond me 20180507 17:54:22<+discordbot2> A puzzle game is one in which the solution(s) are predetermined 20180507 17:55:08<+discordbot2> The winning moves in a strategy game depend partially upon the actions of your opponent. 20180507 17:55:15< hk238> sorry for being so confrontational, you probably do have a point, jyrkive 20180507 17:55:26< Marcgal> And puzzle games are rarely 1v1 competitive games, tbh 20180507 17:55:32< Marcgal> for this exact reason 20180507 17:56:10<+discordbot2> One interesting aspect of chess is that it has absolute best moves, regardless of your opponent's strategy. 20180507 17:56:35<+discordbot2> No 20180507 17:56:46<+discordbot2> It has wisest moves 20180507 17:56:49<+discordbot2> In, say, Wesnoth, you want to counter your opponen't strategy, their troops's strengths, and so on. 20180507 17:56:54< Marcgal> @jyrkive Has it been proven yet? 20180507 17:57:06< Marcgal> Outside of some very specific situations? 20180507 17:57:16<+discordbot2> In chess, you simply assume that your opponent will make optimal moves, and plan your own moves accordingly. 20180507 17:57:35< Marcgal> I don't believe chess is a solved game yet, @jyrkive? 20180507 17:57:39<+discordbot2> If the opponent makes any other moves, good for you. You'll just get an easier victory. 20180507 17:57:45<+discordbot2> No, it's not solved. 20180507 17:58:03<+discordbot2> But having developed a chess engine, I can at least say that it's how all chess engines operate. 20180507 17:58:12< Marcgal> It's not solved, but is it proven that an optimal strategy exists? 20180507 17:58:39<+discordbot2> EV is not realized value 20180507 17:58:43< hk238> while it's true that the game could be theoretically solved and thus reduced to absolute sequences that are either winning or losing, 20180507 17:59:08< hk238> that's not say there wouldn't be some abstract generalizations over the winning sequences that could be considered elements of strategy 20180507 18:00:10<+discordbot2> Should you play an opening intended to achieve mate in 2? No, but not playing it could ostensibly lose you the game 20180507 18:00:23< hk238> and when it comes to solving games like chess and go, I think they're probably not going to involve brute force evaluation of every single possible variation of the game, but rather more something along the lines of a mathematical proof, such that certain sequences can be shown to be losing or winning, using some abstractions 20180507 18:01:01< hk238> but then I don't know.. :o 20180507 18:01:06<+discordbot2> Current chess engines use opening books, and endgame tablebases. 20180507 18:01:25< Marcgal> Fine but what about anything in between? 20180507 18:01:33<+discordbot2> Both for openings and endings, known-good (for endgames, known-optimal) moves have been recorded. 20180507 18:01:53<+discordbot2> The problem with chess is the relatively small problem space 20180507 18:01:57<+discordbot2> No, there isn't anything in between. Recording all that data would require more than petabytes of storage. 20180507 18:02:35< hk238> but chess engines also perform some sort of evaluation of board positions, even though they can also use the Monte Carlo algorithm.. I 'm not sure if that's been useful in chess:o 20180507 18:02:51<+discordbot2> That doesn't change the fundamental nature of the game. 20180507 18:03:13<+discordbot2> It's worth noting that both opening books and endgame tablebases omit positions which are known to be bad. There isn't any need to record them. 20180507 18:03:24< Marcgal> @jyrkive I just wanna understand you correctly. Do I understand correctly that you mean that chess is not a strategy game but rather a puzzle game because, even if such a sequence has not been found yet, there undoubtedly exists an optimal sequence of moves, to which any other sequence is inferior? 20180507 18:03:45<+discordbot2> If the engine's opponent makes a blunder, it doesn't matter that the resulting position isn't in the opening book. the engine will get such a huge advantage that it wins anyway. 20180507 18:03:53< hk238> I suppose the point jyrkive probably has is that in a game of probability it's not absolutely certain that a way of playing is better than some other, but on the other hand with a similar logic, you can probably consider all the possible variations of a game involving a RNG and say that some variations are clearly better than others? 20180507 18:06:34< Marcgal> I mean, @jyrkive seems to claim that there are some fundamental differences between chess and wesnoth... but what are these fundamental differences? Apart from RNG, I don't see any? 20180507 18:06:50<+discordbot2> Of course, in strategy games there are also absolutely bad strategies (which are bad regardless of who your opponent is and what kind of strategy he/she uses). 20180507 18:07:09< Marcgal> RNG And limited information if fog of war is enabled 20180507 18:07:44< hk238> hidden information makes things interesting :o 20180507 18:08:03< Marcgal> @jyrkive I don't know... but Can it be proven that in a game with no RNG and with no limited information... there MUST exist an optimal sequence of moves? 20180507 18:08:19<+discordbot2> In addition to RNG, notable differences include size (chess is 8x8, Wesnoth maps are far larger), the number of units (chess has 6, Wesnoth has far more), hidden information via fog/shroud, and overall far higher complexity. 20180507 18:08:31< hk238> no Marcgal there's an optimal sequence of moves with certain betting strategy 20180507 18:08:39< hk238> sorry to be confrontational again 20180507 18:08:52<+discordbot2> Even with fog of war it's technically possible to have a state tree of all possible enemy locations, it's just practically infeasible 20180507 18:09:12< hk238> I have to disagree with the idea that wesnoth has higher complexity:o 20180507 18:10:50<+discordbot2> Marcgal: I don't think it's true that an rng-free game have an unbeatable solution somewhere, but in practice it doesn't really matter 20180507 18:11:41<+discordbot2> You can however prove that there is no such solution for Wesnoth 20180507 18:12:36< hk238> I don't know it's complicated.. I suppose jyrkive has a point, still chess is typically considered to have a thing called strategy, but one may choose to focus on certain aspects of strategy that chess is lacking, and say that it's not that kind of strategy game, and it would correct.. Chess has less gambling, even though that does exist in the form of sacrifices for attacks on king for an example 20180507 18:12:59< hk238> where you could go from a certain draw to betting on the attack and then subsequently losing if it fails 20180507 18:13:57<+discordbot2> Even that kind of playing isn't gambling. 20180507 18:14:09<+discordbot2> You're just trading a piece for pressure on the opponent's king. 20180507 18:14:18<+discordbot2> One way it can end is a checkmate, yes. 20180507 18:14:34< hk238> it's practically gambling since you can estimate a probability that it works without absolute knowledge 20180507 18:14:51<+discordbot2> But another possibility is that the opponent just trades back later on, and lets you cpture some pieces in exchange of getting the king to safety. 20180507 18:15:03< hk238> but of course it doesn't involve a source of randomness 20180507 18:15:30<+discordbot2> The only thing you do when sacrificing is that you trade one form of strength (pieces) for another. 20180507 18:16:04< hk238> I was trying to explain that the position is such that a good player would know it would almost certainly be a draw if th egame was continued regularly 20180507 18:16:23< hk238> but at the same time there is an opportunity to start an attack on the king by givign up a rook for an example 20180507 18:16:55<+discordbot2> Chess engines also sacrifice pieces often. They never gamble. They don't know the concept of gambling. 20180507 18:16:56< hk238> then opponent either finds a way to defend against mating and gets their king to safety, or you can mate the king. But if you fail to do so, then being down by a rook means you will almsot certainly lose, if the king escapes 20180507 18:17:17< hk238> without being able to think through all of the possible variations, you could say that you have a pretty good chance of mating, and taking a chance that way 20180507 18:17:35< hk238> there's no source of randomness, but it's still an example of a kind of a gamble 20180507 18:17:46<+discordbot2> They simply look at the positions which can be reached after the sacrifice, and make the decision after they have determined that the position afterwards is better than before the sacrifice. 20180507 18:18:35<+discordbot2> Specifically, search shows that they won't lose additional pieces afterwards, and the evaluation function gives bonuses for the positional advantage. 20180507 18:18:35< hk238> computers have the luxury of being able to solve those mating sequences I suppose 20180507 18:18:36< Marcgal> "determined" or estimated? 20180507 18:18:57< hk238> but this was an example of human players 20180507 18:19:25< hk238> in any case there's definitely strategy in chess and even those chess enginges perform position analysis that could be considered strategic as far as I know 20180507 18:19:53<+discordbot2> @jyrkive i think chess is a strategy game because think about it, in a given position you have 5 different moves that are mathematically the same strength/not one move is objectively superior to the other 20180507 18:20:05<+discordbot2> however some make it harder for the opponent than others 20180507 18:20:18<+discordbot2> and some make it more pleasant for u than others 20180507 18:20:53<+discordbot2> and u have to choose wisely and think about what result u are fighting for 20180507 18:21:54<+discordbot2> Kramnik (a top player) played against a computer and all the spectators mentioned that he could get an objectively drawn queen and pawn ending against the computer in a position 20180507 18:22:21< Marcgal> hk238: "computers have the luxury of being able to solve those mating sequences I suppose" It is currently impossible to search through all possible chess positions; if it was possible to determine for any move it is is unconditionally better or worse than any other mover then, IIUC, chess would be a solved game; but it's not 20180507 18:22:48<+discordbot2> and people were asking kramnik like "why the heck didnt u go into that ending, did you not see it??" and kramnik was like "Do you think i didnt see it? a computer would beat me in a drawn queen ending, i wanted something that would offer better chances for a draw, even if my position is worse" 20180507 18:22:56<+discordbot2> Well, it's still of massive help to be able to look at 10 million or so possible positions. 20180507 18:22:59< hk238> I was referring to a sequence that starts with a rook sacrifice, marcgal 20180507 18:23:18<+discordbot2> jyrkive even computers have strategies; some computers different styles or approaches than other 20180507 18:23:31<+discordbot2> and in the context of humans well 20180507 18:23:43<+discordbot2> positional judgement is very important as well as decision making 20180507 18:24:02<+discordbot2> actually computers have positional judgement 20180507 18:24:42<+discordbot2> Here's one good reference about it: http://www.top-5000.nl/authors/rebel/chess840.htm#EVAL 20180507 18:24:52<+discordbot2> on lichess there is a computer designed to immitate Tal (a top player who is notorious for romantic sacrifices, like very romantic. he can sac a queen for a knight for positional compensation and win) 20180507 18:25:00<+discordbot2> REBEL's evaluation function is one of the most complex used in chess engines. 20180507 18:25:08<+discordbot2> thus the computer having a different strategic style 20180507 18:25:41<+discordbot2> yeah 20180507 18:26:08<+discordbot2> And it's easy for the author to tweak its playing style by changing the weights of different parts of the evaluation. 20180507 18:26:15<+discordbot2> yes 20180507 18:26:30<+discordbot2> I would agree that chess is a logic game but i still think it is strategic 20180507 18:27:05<+discordbot2> i think the computer argument is somewhat irrelevant because that would deem any simplistic turn based game as non strategic or prioritizing math over the concept of strategy 20180507 18:27:31<+discordbot2> and also a computer cant think so i guess it doesnt think strategically lol 20180507 18:27:45<+discordbot2> My agrument was that chess is a very simple game compared with what we usually call strategy games. 20180507 18:27:49<+discordbot2> 64 squares. 20180507 18:27:56<+discordbot2> Siz different pieces. 20180507 18:27:56<+discordbot2> Ohhh okay yes definitely i agree 20180507 18:28:24<+discordbot2> well in minecraft u have only like 8 redstone components or something 20180507 18:28:33<+discordbot2> and u can make computers and advanced gates and stuff 20180507 18:29:14< zookeeper> strategy game =/= strategic game, perhaps. 20180507 18:29:30<+discordbot2> Ooh thats prettu poignant 20180507 18:29:32<+discordbot2> hmmm 20180507 18:29:48<+discordbot2> which one would chess classify under 20180507 18:29:54<+discordbot2> strategy? 20180507 18:30:39<+discordbot2> or both? or neither? xD 20180507 18:33:10<+discordbot2> Also another reason i would classify chess as a strategy game is because there are millions of chess openings and 80% of them are objectively the same strength but some openings are more preferred. The Ruy Lopez is 10x more often played than the italian game at the top level, yet for both of these openings perfect play for both sides would be a draw 20180507 18:33:20<+discordbot2> also theres personal preference and style 20180507 18:33:59<+discordbot2> some people play better in open positions, other in closed, kind of like in wesnoth. Orcs might suit someone who is aggressive and good at provoking, while knalgans someone with a more slow style 20180507 18:34:05-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 18:35:58<+discordbot2> Millions of openings :GWchadThonkery: 20180507 18:36:00<+discordbot2> how 20180507 18:36:26<+discordbot2> Because theres a lot of deviations and alone there are 400 sicilian variations 20180507 18:36:38<+discordbot2> but a crap ton of deviations within the caters of the opening 20180507 18:36:52<+discordbot2> Deviations from what 20180507 18:37:02<+discordbot2> ok i will provide visual example 20180507 18:37:05<+discordbot2> one moment 20180507 18:37:06<+discordbot2> Even if you consider moving a piece differently it still isn't in millions 20180507 18:37:12<+discordbot2> Not nearly 20180507 18:37:29<+discordbot2> Don't you have like 20180507 18:37:32<+discordbot2> Let's say 20180507 18:37:38<+discordbot2> 5000 choices every turn? 20180507 18:37:43<+discordbot2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/443119243479744542/image.png 20180507 18:37:50<+discordbot2> Alapin sicilian white can pick between 20180507 18:37:54<+discordbot2> Nxd7 and Bxc6 20180507 18:38:03<+discordbot2> opening deviation 20180507 18:38:17<+discordbot2> yeah it's just 2 variations 20180507 18:38:21<+discordbot2> not millions 20180507 18:38:27<+discordbot2> Millions tota 20180507 18:38:29<+discordbot2> total 20180507 18:38:31<+discordbot2> in all of chess 20180507 18:38:40<+discordbot2> All? 20180507 18:38:42<+discordbot2> http://www.playwitharena.com/?User_Files%2C_Engines:Opening_Books_(21)%26nbsp%3B 20180507 18:38:57<+discordbot2> Largest opening book in that page contains 3,3 million positions. 20180507 18:39:00<+discordbot2> Yes people have established openings 20180507 18:39:43<+discordbot2> Well MEGA contains 7 million games (largest chessbase database) and u can multiply that by 40 to get amount of positions 20180507 18:39:54<+discordbot2> since 40 is the average length of a game 20180507 18:40:28<+discordbot2> then u can multiply it by .25 since on average the opening lasts for quarter of the game 20180507 18:41:01< Marcgal> Hmm, let me try. I'm not 100% sure if it works, but it looks reasonable (to me). So, let's assume we have a game with no RNG, no hidden information and a finite number of states. Clearly, chess is one. 20180507 18:41:11<+discordbot2> 70 million positions in opening book, but granted a position =/= opening deviation 20180507 18:41:21<+discordbot2> i think my 1 million opening depiction is quote accurate 20180507 18:41:33<+discordbot2> Right 20180507 18:42:09< Marcgal> There exists a finite state automaton that defines such a game. It might not be representable given current technology, but it exists. Transitions from state to state are defined by players' moves. 20180507 18:42:18<+discordbot2> right 20180507 18:42:40<+discordbot2> Man i love this philosophical stuff.. very nice to talk to u guys :) 20180507 18:42:51<+discordbot2> whats the next point? 20180507 18:43:46< Marcgal> Now from any given player's perspective we can define an automaton that defines the same game but only accepts his moves, and not his opponents. Such automaton will have states consisting of all sets of states of our original automaton. 20180507 18:44:28<+discordbot2> well even then wouldnt that limit the possibilities an opponent can move 20180507 18:44:42<+discordbot2> since they have legal moves to disrupt ur automaton 20180507 18:44:59<+discordbot2> and in order for ur system to be identical to the game the opponent has to comply 20180507 18:45:06<+discordbot2> if thats what u mean 20180507 18:45:33< Marcgal> The transitions are defined as follows: For each set of state and our player's move, we go to the set of states that is achievable by enumerating all possible opponents' answers to the players' moves from all states defined in the subset we are looking at. 20180507 18:45:36-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 18:45:57<+discordbot2> yeah i see 20180507 18:46:45< Marcgal> If there exists a path from the subset containing only the starting state to a subset that contains only winning states (for our player) then this path is a winning strategy. 20180507 18:47:11-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180507 18:47:26<+discordbot2> But Rhike my point stands no? 20180507 18:47:38<+discordbot2> Yes that makes sense, Marcgal 20180507 18:47:48< Marcgal> If there exists a path that ends in a subset which contains only states no worse than draws then this path defines a strategy which forces a draw. 20180507 18:48:15< Marcgal> If there is a cycle in this automaton, then this cycle defines a strategy which forces looping the game. 20180507 18:48:25< Marcgal> In any other case, the opponent has a winning strategy. 20180507 18:48:32<+discordbot2> but the opponent may not play accurately due to lack of knowledge 20180507 18:48:39<+discordbot2> or u might not win a won position 20180507 18:48:43< Marcgal> Thus, we have proven that chess MUST have an optimal strategy. 20180507 18:48:50<+discordbot2> even psychology affects this 20180507 18:48:54< Marcgal> Unless there is a mistake in my proof. 20180507 18:48:58<+discordbot2> but stilll yes i agree with you 20180507 18:49:31<+discordbot2> eh it makes a lot of sense, its a fancy way to say that chess has a lot to do with contingency planning because u have to study and plan what subsets u want to reach 20180507 18:49:32<+discordbot2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo's_theorem_(game_theory) 20180507 18:49:45-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180507 18:50:39< Marcgal> No. No. No. I screwed. 20180507 18:50:41< Marcgal> I think. 20180507 18:50:47<+discordbot2> How so 20180507 18:51:03<+discordbot2> lol that theorem is adorable... I love theories xD 20180507 18:51:12< Marcgal> I ignored the fact that once the opponent makes his move, we are no longer in a state that consists of all possible states. 20180507 18:52:02< Marcgal> I mean, my "winning strategy" only works if there is a sequence of moves that win REGARDLESS of what the opponent does. 20180507 18:52:46<+discordbot2> ur main point is still right to me 20180507 18:52:46< Marcgal> But there might exists a winning strategy that chooses a move accordingly to what the opponent does; and such a strategy cannot be derived from my automaton. 20180507 18:53:18<+discordbot2> yeah true 20180507 18:53:20< Marcgal> unless...ugh, I'm sleepy. 20180507 18:53:26<+discordbot2> lol ur cute 20180507 18:53:40<+discordbot2> ah sleepy? oh my, take care 20180507 18:54:02<+discordbot2> ;) 20180507 18:54:27<+discordbot2> thats not supposed to be a winky face lol 20180507 19:01:55< Marcgal> Correction: The second automaton has transitions which consist of all possible state-move pairs, when states are the states from the subset we're looking at. 20180507 19:02:07< Marcgal> Then maybe my proof finally works as well. 20180507 19:05:12-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:ec27:6cd2:a5ce:c00a] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 19:09:25-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 19:10:03-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 19:12:30<+discordbot2> Can someone help me with complexity? (algorithms) I don't quite get the O(N log N) thingy. 20180507 19:13:32<+discordbot2> (This has not really something to do with Wesnoth, but some of you are really good developers, so.. yeah) 20180507 19:15:59< Marcgal> @Bitron, homework? :) 20180507 19:16:14<+discordbot2> Yes. T_T 20180507 19:17:49<+discordbot2> I've got a little time; maybe I can help. Can you pinpoint what you're not understanding more exactly, or is it just the whole thing? 20180507 19:17:59< Marcgal> what do you fail to understand? I don't feel like explaining the whole asymptoptic complexity theory, logarithms rn 20180507 19:18:09< Marcgal> If you have a more specific question, I may be able to help 20180507 19:21:09<+discordbot2> I have an algorithm that takes 0.5 ms for input size 100. How long does it take for input size 500, when I have O(N log N) 20180507 19:21:43<+discordbot2> 500 / 100 = 5. 20180507 19:21:56<+discordbot2> It will take approximately 5 * log(5) times as long. 20180507 19:22:10< loonycyborg> only approximately 20180507 19:22:11<+discordbot2> (Where "log" is base-2 logarithm.) 20180507 19:24:11< elias> the base doesn't really matter since the whole thing can also differ by a random constant 20180507 19:27:00<+discordbot2> Apparently it does matter to my calculator. 20180507 19:28:36<+discordbot2> Well, thanks anyways. I somehow forgot that I actually can use the calculator and was wondering how to calculate that on paper. 20180507 19:29:21< elias> e.g. if your algorithm takes 0.5ms for n=100, it could be that it actuall is: 0.4ms + 0.02ms * n * log(n) - that would still fit O(n * log(n)) :) 20180507 19:33:01< elias> so it could be a trick question, and the correct answer could be that close to 0 (i.e. both n=100 and n=500) it does not tell you anything, only close to infinity 20180507 19:33:02<+discordbot2> Well, thanks guys.. Homework done. 😅 20180507 19:33:25-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180507 19:36:01<+discordbot2> Also if it helps at all, note that u can only castle once, and also pawns cant move backwards 20180507 19:36:07<+discordbot2> tranpositions may or may not occur 20180507 19:37:28<+discordbot2> Marcgal you are very smart.. :) 20180507 19:37:48<+discordbot2> sleepy head 😴 xDD OwO 20180507 19:38:14< Marcgal> Thank you but I'm not sure, given my questionable achievements in college ;/ 20180507 19:44:36<+discordbot2> Maybe I should put my homework here as well? 20180507 19:45:10<+discordbot2> Would leave a heck of a lot more time gor gaming and other fun stuff 20180507 19:46:22-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 19:46:50<+discordbot2> You only do it if you don't know how to do it 20180507 20:16:45-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180507 20:17:25-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180507 20:18:18<+discordbot2> well, I was surprised that the discussion went from statements I wouldn't agree with to statements I would agree with 20180507 20:18:24<+discordbot2> (the chess one) 20180507 20:18:28<+discordbot2> without me being in it 20180507 20:21:39<+discordbot2> hey guys - been playing BFW for 12 years or something and never realised a discord group had popped up - anyone know how long before we start to see popular add-ons reappear on the download server? 20180507 20:23:24<+discordbot2> 1-2 months. Depends on the add-ons' respective maintainers. 20180507 20:27:38< Marcgal> Krecikdwamiljony Out of curiosity, what would you not agree with and what would you agree with? 20180507 20:28:39<+discordbot2> that chess is not a game of strategy 20180507 20:29:12< Marcgal> this is what you agree with or what you don't agree with? 20180507 20:29:19<+discordbot2> BTW, I said "strategy game", not "game of strategy". 20180507 20:29:29<+discordbot2> synonyms for me 20180507 20:29:53<+discordbot2> I agree though, that in theory, with limitless computing power it indeed is not a strategy game, but for all practical intents and purposes it is one 20180507 20:29:59<+discordbot2> at least for now 20180507 20:30:11<+discordbot2> and probably for a lot more time in the future 20180507 20:35:37<+discordbot2> Computer argument seems like a mooooot point sorry to disappoint 😊 20180507 20:36:08<+discordbot2> Oh yeah well Marcgal college doesnt make u smart/dumb, lol 20180507 20:36:29<+discordbot2> College is stupid and im philosophically against the idea of school, at least the school system that we know of 20180507 20:38:41<+discordbot2> wat is this convo 20180507 20:43:10<+discordbot2> just accept it, I guess? 20180507 20:46:17-!- vihta_ [sid239753@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lifssmcozxmnusro] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 20:46:23-!- DoctorFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-91-7.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 20:52:19-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 20:53:29-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Lirion, gallaecio, vihta, DeFender 20180507 20:54:02-!- vihta_ is now known as vihta 20180507 20:57:53-!- Lirion [~m00se@2a01:4f8:201:28d::2] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 20:57:54-!- Lirion [~m00se@2a01:4f8:201:28d::2] has quit [Changing host] 20180507 20:57:54-!- Lirion [~m00se@wikimedia-commons/Lirion] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 21:04:45-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180507 21:10:59<+discordbot2> That is the dumbest thing I've read today 20180507 21:12:13<+discordbot2> Anyone who says they're "philosophically against the idea of school" should be ashamed of themselves. 20180507 21:13:53<+discordbot2> And really should consider the anti-intellectualism they are promoting. 20180507 21:18:54< zookeeper> i might have agreed with you a moment ago, but i'm not sure i do anymore. what a conundrum. :hmm: 20180507 21:20:42< Marcgal> zookeeper: since you're there 20180507 21:21:31< Marcgal> I guess this idea of mine is dead? https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=45016 20180507 21:21:53< Marcgal> If I recall, a year ago you said you'd work on this ;/ 20180507 21:23:54-!- lipkabb [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180507 21:25:08< zookeeper> Marcgal, it's a lot of work and not really a high priority, so sadly there's usually always something more important to spend the time on 20180507 21:25:59< Marcgal> hmmm... what needs to be done? Apart from implementing the barriers? (You said you didn't like how I implemented them and you would implement them yourself in another way) 20180507 21:28:32< Soliton> you could open a pull request with your proposed changes then it's perhaps easier to get people to look at and suggest changes or accept it. 20180507 21:29:08-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 21:31:01< zookeeper> dialogue, the visuals, doing the visuals well requires it to be done in a way that makes the movement part tricky to do, stuff like that. 20180507 21:32:29-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Lirion 20180507 21:43:03-!- Netsplit over, joins: Lirion 20180507 21:43:30-!- metaverse [~metaverse@unaffiliated/metaverse] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20180507 21:47:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180507 21:51:59< Marcgal> ugh...sorry for asking, but in the end...are there realistic chances to get it done? I can't proofread myself ;( 20180507 21:52:32< Marcgal> And I'm not really good at visuals, I think I did my best on this field ;/ 20180507 21:55:35< Marcgal> zookeeper? 20180507 21:58:30< zookeeper> there's a chance, but i don't know how to gauge the level of realisticness (is that a word?) 20180507 22:05:47-!- Marcgal [~m@2a02:a317:2241:7a00:9004:710f:5c42:b443] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180507 22:08:18-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:ec27:6cd2:a5ce:c00a] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180507 22:11:59-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 22:12:34-!- Smedles [~quassel@101.166.201.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180507 22:25:59-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180507 22:26:09-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180507 22:34:57<+discordbot2> vultraz i fully agree with you... philosophy and education is great but i was talking about something different 20180507 22:36:17<+discordbot2> college right now sucks but anyway school doesnt measure intelligence 20180507 22:38:05<+discordbot2> i dont mean to promote anti intellectualism, if you knew me well enough then you would understand that it is one of the only things I care about and that I think should be promoted more than it is today 20180507 22:38:17<+discordbot2> intellectual individualism and philosophy 20180507 22:44:36<+discordbot2> That being said i guess i shouldnt say its one of the 'only' things i care about; I care about a lot of things. Anyway when i said i was philosophically against schools, I meant today's schools, not the idea of education and discussing and learning primary knowledge 20180507 22:51:50-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 23:05:17<+discordbot2> Ultimately this was a mere tangent and i feel we shouldnt talk about x(? since it could get heavy really quickly in regards to politically heavy etc. I was calling Marcgal smart :))) hehe and saying essentially, don't limit what u think about urself to school or college 20180507 23:11:30-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth 20180507 23:14:57-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180507 23:32:46<+discordbot2> @Crimson_Conure i will miss the orc. also this pic no longer has any purpose. not anymore. it may be cute i guess. i will change it soon. i gotta say i love the entire chess argument and everything else so enlightening. reading it all was a great time before bed. phew have a good night everyone( now or when u go to bed xD) 20180507 23:33:56<+discordbot2> also i agree with vultraz&conure 20180507 23:37:13-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180507 23:52:23-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth --- Log closed Tue May 08 00:00:08 2018