--- Log opened Wed May 16 00:00:48 2018 20180516 00:05:21-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC67E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180516 00:22:51< Ravana_> > 4 files changed, 83 insertions(+), 455 deletions(-) < doing logic in Lua is so much more compact 20180516 00:44:14-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180516 00:45:40< celticminstrel> Compared to WML? 20180516 00:57:08< Ravana_> yes 20180516 01:00:04<+discordbot> of course πŸ˜› 20180516 01:36:54-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180516 02:40:31< janebot> wesnoth: Android getting an update? (by /u/brandonrule4) https://redd.it/8jrj8y 20180516 03:48:25-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180516 05:06:19-!- clavi [~anonymous@v22018044422564167.powersrv.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180516 05:13:00-!- clavi [~anonymous@v22018044422564167.powersrv.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 06:37:52<+discordbot> Greetings o/ 20180516 06:39:15< APic> \o 20180516 06:41:53-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 06:45:00-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 06:45:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 06:49:07<+discordbot> So, now that the add-ons servers for the older versions seems to have been taken offline; does anyone still have any kind of collection of maps from those old days? πŸ€” 20180516 06:50:29<+discordbot> Or, perhaps rather; maps from earlier release versions? 20180516 06:50:29<+discordbot> https://addons.wesnoth.org 20180516 06:51:09<+discordbot> Yeah, but like I'm saying πŸ˜‰ the older versions's add-ons servers don't seem to be around anymore (at least not via that page) 20180516 06:51:16<+discordbot> They are. 20180516 06:51:23<+discordbot> πŸ€” 20180516 06:51:24<+discordbot> The servers aren't online but the archives are there. 20180516 06:55:01<+discordbot> I don't see anything prior to 1.1 there. Was that, perhaps, the first addition of the add-ons servers? It's been so long πŸ˜… 20180516 06:56:21<+discordbot> I don't remember what happened to the 1.1.x and 1.0.x instances but I believe there's a backup of the latter somewhere if you need anything specific from it. 20180516 06:57:01<+discordbot> The map format for all versions prior to 1.3.10 was completely different though. 20180516 06:57:46<+discordbot> I'm looking for an old version of Isar's Cross (at least I'm fairly certain it's Isar's Cross) that used to be around many many versions ago. I used to have it already, but my old harddrive crashed so I've lost all of the old stuff I used to have. 20180516 06:58:04<+discordbot> Aye, that I know. I remember manually converting old maps to recent versions πŸ˜„ 20180516 06:59:27<+discordbot> I found some old files at https://www.wesnoth.org/files/old/ as well. Maybe I'll ahve a look. https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/wesnoth/ also seems to have older versions. Not sure if I'm looking for stuff on the add-ons servers or if it was maps from the actual stable releases, but I'll have a looksie at these 20180516 07:00:13<+discordbot> I'm going to bed right now, but these are the 1.0 add-ons server packs: https://pastebin.com/ppNGX5Gh 20180516 07:00:30<+discordbot> If you use https://files.wesnoth.org/addons/1.0/ you'll get one of those. 20180516 07:00:37<+discordbot> THanks! I'll have a look there as well πŸ™‚ and sleep tight! 20180516 07:00:41<+discordbot> Appreciate the help πŸ˜„ 20180516 07:25:47< zookeeper> isar's cross doesn't exist (at least with a name like that) in any 1.0 add-ons 20180516 07:27:44< zookeeper> it was added to mainline in 1.1.3, so if you want older versions that certainly seems about as old as you could ever need... 20180516 07:37:38<+discordbot> πŸ€” Maybe it went under a different name back then? I'm still looking over old maps, however. I should be able to spot it.. I hope πŸ’¦ 20180516 07:38:25<+discordbot> Might just have been a map that very much reminded me of what an early version of Isar's Cross might've looked like. Not certain. Was so long ago. 20180516 07:43:48< zookeeper> well, if you absolutely must know what the map looked like _over_ 11 years ago... 20180516 07:44:36< zookeeper> because that's how long ago it was added and thus how old a version you can get directly from the git history 20180516 07:45:30< zookeeper> correction: 12 years :p 20180516 07:45:59<+discordbot> I'm gonna take a peek a little all over the place over the versions that has come and gone. I really have no idea where to place, version-wise, other than that it's old πŸ˜… 20180516 07:46:15<+discordbot> But I'm having fun going over these old maps n stuff, so it's all good πŸ‘Œ 20180516 07:47:14<+discordbot> I seem to remembert that I had to manuially convert the map to the later version's .map standard, however, so I'm guessing it's (checks what shadow said).. before 1.3.10 20180516 07:47:19<+discordbot> We'll see πŸ™‚ 20180516 08:16:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 08:16:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 09:02:49<+discordbot> Ack.. too much to look over. Need to take a break, lol 20180516 09:07:11-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 09:08:28-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 09:25:21-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180516 11:17:41-!- lipkab [~the_new_l@109-61-8-190.adsl-fix.dravanet.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180516 12:10:30-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 12:21:29-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 13:07:30-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 13:57:21-!- clavi [~anonymous@v22018044422564167.powersrv.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180516 14:02:37< Amany> hi guys! do you maybe know when there will repo with 1.14 for ubuntu? 20180516 14:23:35<+discordbot> pretty sure ubuntu already has 1.14? 20180516 14:25:49<+discordbot> nope 20180516 14:26:00<+discordbot> they are still on 1.12.6 20180516 14:26:27<+discordbot> im sure there is a ppa, but why not use steam? 20180516 14:28:29<+discordbot> ftr, you need at least ubuntu 16.04 for 1.14 20180516 14:30:15<+discordbot> 18.04 is recommended 20180516 14:30:34<+discordbot> https://flathub.org/apps/details/org.wesnoth.Wesnoth this flatpak should be latest 20180516 14:30:59<+discordbot> there's that too 20180516 14:31:07<+discordbot> and of course one can use steam 20180516 14:31:27<+discordbot> which I would recommend over other forms of distribution 20180516 14:31:34<+discordbot> since you get updates immediately 20180516 14:31:55<+discordbot> + promoting wesnoth on the premier cross-platform gaming platform πŸ˜„ 20180516 14:31:58<+discordbot> rah rah!! 20180516 14:32:26< Amany> oh 20180516 14:32:34< Amany> didnt know about wesnoth @ steam 20180516 14:32:42< Amany> ill take this one ;-) thanks guys 20180516 14:32:53<+discordbot> πŸ‘ 20180516 14:35:15<+discordbot> can anyone tell me btw, whether or not the audio buffer size setting works in 1.14.1? 20180516 14:35:32<+discordbot> if i edit the preferences file? 20180516 14:35:39<+discordbot> Don't tell me you have also had audio troubles 20180516 14:35:59<+discordbot> not exactly 20180516 14:36:08<+discordbot> ive had horrible framerate issues that i also had in 1.12 20180516 14:36:13<+discordbot> that were tied to the audio buffer size 20180516 14:36:23<+discordbot> the audio may be laggy too, but the whole game is laggy, so i cant tell 20180516 14:36:28<+discordbot> windows 10, steam version 20180516 14:36:36<+discordbot> not a problem on linux 20180516 14:37:06<+discordbot> the buffer size is 4096 by default on windows πŸ€” 20180516 14:37:26<+discordbot> when i set it at 1024 for 1.12, any performance issues, including audio latency went away 20180516 14:37:38<+discordbot> but yes, you can set sound_buffer_size in your prefs 20180516 14:37:57<+discordbot> ah i put that in, but it didnt fix the framerate issue 20180516 14:38:06<+discordbot> the issue must be somewhere else then 😦 20180516 14:38:14<+discordbot> honestly 20180516 14:38:24<+discordbot> our current rendering pipeline is crap 20180516 14:39:05<+discordbot> we use surface rendering on the CPU instead of accelerated texture-based rendering on the GPU 20180516 14:39:57<+discordbot> we've optimized it as much we can, but the only real solution is a complete refactor of the rendering backend 20180516 14:40:03<+discordbot> which I've been working on 20180516 14:40:15<+discordbot> but don't expect it soon 20180516 14:40:21<+discordbot> are you referring to the windows-specific pipeline? 20180516 14:40:31<+discordbot> no 20180516 14:40:32<+discordbot> all platforms 20180516 14:40:53<+discordbot> well for me performance is fantastic on a much older processor running on linux 20180516 14:41:04<+discordbot> cant even run GNOME but it can run wesnoth 1.14.1 perfectly 20180516 14:41:12<+discordbot> interesting 20180516 14:41:28<+discordbot> well thanks for the hard work anyways. i blame windows hands down πŸ˜ƒ 20180516 14:41:55<+discordbot> i doubt there is any resolution, besides use different hardware πŸ˜ƒ 20180516 14:42:11<+discordbot> 3rd gen cpu's + windows = obsolete i guess 20180516 14:42:21<+discordbot> Β―_(ツ)_/Β― 20180516 14:42:25<+discordbot> yep! 20180516 14:42:54<+discordbot> I haven't had much time to work on the rendering refactor, recently... 20180516 14:43:05<+discordbot> (and I seem to have hit a bit of a wall) 20180516 14:43:12<+discordbot> but, I'll get there eventually 20180516 14:43:57<+discordbot> godspeed, as they say. good to know that you guys are giving the engine that kind of attention. 20180516 14:44:04<+discordbot> it's long overdue 20180516 14:44:22<+discordbot> but it's the kind of thing that needed a lot of other stuff to happen first 20180516 14:45:23<+discordbot> that's what we mean in the 1.14 announcement when we say we laid groundwork for future changes 20180516 14:45:47<+discordbot> im particularly interested in the new modding features, particularly the lua scripting 20180516 14:46:01<+discordbot> though i noticed that WML itself has been expanded in big ways 20180516 14:46:08<+discordbot> lot of new Lua features in 1.14 20180516 14:46:42<+discordbot> hopefully some ways to modify the interface with lua 20180516 14:46:57<+discordbot> i had some things i wanted to try that involve adding extra metrics to the interface 20180516 14:47:15<+discordbot> i.e. adding another metric in line with gold, villages held, etc. 20180516 14:47:29<+discordbot> it's somewhat possible 20180516 14:47:38<+discordbot> but no more than int he past 20180516 14:47:42<+discordbot> ah i see 20180516 14:49:01<+discordbot> well the new loops should at any rate make more complex stuff possible 20180516 14:49:28<+discordbot> Speaking of the UI, here's a concept (ie, it's not anything function, just a mockup) of a UI redesign I'm hoping to get to... 20180516 14:49:28<+discordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/446323300885594152/wesnoth_new_UI_mockup_V2.JPG 20180516 14:51:03<+discordbot> interesting 20180516 14:52:10<+discordbot> I kinda like the top bar in the current version though, though i think some other elements could be distributed better throughout the space, like youre attempting in your mock-up 20180516 14:53:04<+discordbot> i was going to write an idea that popped into mind when i saw your mock-up 20180516 14:53:13<+discordbot> but im not sure how it would scale with lower resolutions 20180516 14:54:25<+discordbot> i definitely like the classic-blizzard-bevelled look of the wesnoth UI 20180516 14:56:30<+discordbot> I've been trying to make it look more sleek and modern πŸ˜› 20180516 14:56:57<+discordbot> well one can be both sleek, modern, and classic/nostalgic πŸ˜„ 20180516 14:57:06<+discordbot> in my opinion wesnoth hits all those notes 20180516 14:57:14<+discordbot> both functionally and stylistically 20180516 14:59:27<+discordbot> it's lacking in areas. 20180516 14:59:44<+discordbot> but thanks 20180516 15:00:28<+discordbot> sure, nothings perfect 20180516 15:04:47<+discordbot> well at any rate, your ui mockup inspired me to make a mockup of my own, even if its just for my own amusement πŸ˜„ 20180516 15:04:56<+discordbot> i love UX and UI design 20180516 15:11:28-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 15:13:46-!- clavi [~anonymous@v22018044422564167.powersrv.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 15:14:20< hk238> hi 20180516 15:16:38-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180516 15:32:59-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 15:54:19-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 16:01:14<+discordbot> I’m always open to suggestions on how to improve it 20180516 16:01:26<+discordbot> Hk238: hi 20180516 16:27:41-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc138.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 16:28:43< hk238> hm thinking about making this faction have a little bit more material lazily parsed together 20180516 16:29:51< hk238> an elven faction intended to work with default faction, then I was thinking about possibly making a survival scenario but I'm not sure if I ever get any of these projects started 20180516 16:30:57< hk238> currently I was thinking there'd be an elven knight in the faction, with platemail and two handed sword, it would have good resistances for blade and pierce, less for other types. Then there'd be a mage and I haven't worked out the details yet but it would neutral and have a ranged magical something.. then I thought you'd have elf scout and elf archer 20180516 16:32:21< hk238> then I was thinking there could be something along the lines of a skirmisher or thief or something, one idea I have is that there'd be a unit with a light chainmail that would resist blade but not other types, perhaps with two swords, with in part the idea that in a mirror the simply blade resisting unit would deal with the knight unit reasonably well..Then I was thinking about having a lightly 20180516 16:33:29< hk238> armoured unit with a two berserk only when attacking, but that requires making the unit considerably expensive since it's so useful or having some other detriments. I was thinking having no or very light armour would explain why they're capable of having two rounds, and then that would be balanced by having no resistances or those fencer type resistances 20180516 16:34:54< hk238> then I was thinking you could also have a unit with a shield possibly that would do reasonably well against piercing ranged attacks, unlike the chainmail unit that would be vulnerable to pierce. The knight would also be good against ranged piercing attacks due to armor but expensive and fire/code/arcane penalty would make it target for those mages 20180516 16:36:06< hk238> for lore I was thinking it'd be an elven city in forests or something like that, there'd be a tower for mages, some place where the elves study, I was thinking it coudl be called halls of memory, the tower name I haven't figured out, pale tower sounds kind of clichΓ©.. city name is also open.. There'd be a govermental building regarding the socialites called glowing palace.. And maybe a war academy 20180516 16:37:12< hk238> so I was thinking about ways to expand game play by introducing some abilities or features, some of which already exist, but the basic goal is a little ambitious, the idea is that you can have like 2-3 more units than standard factions and still maintain meaningful differences between the units and allow for gameplay depth. I'm not sure if that can work out.. 20180516 16:37:36< hk238> so I have just about enough material to move this discussion to the forums 20180516 16:37:50< hk238> instead of ranting in the chatroom.. : ) 20180516 16:38:21< hk238> *two rounds berserk 20180516 16:38:35<+discordbot> idk if the default game is in need of another faction to balance, but sounds like interesting material for a custom era 20180516 16:39:33< hk238> yes the intention is to create a custom era with a new faction with the option of default + new era like often is the case 20180516 16:40:29< hk238> I think default could use some fresh winds but I wasn't thinking this would be it :D 20180516 16:40:47<+discordbot> sounds like a fun faction to play 20180516 16:41:05<+discordbot> you could look at ageless era for some placeholder graphics 20180516 16:41:09<+discordbot> and the rest is all in the WML 20180516 16:41:37<+discordbot> if i remember correctly ageless has an expanded elf graphics 20180516 16:41:52< hk238> yeah I have trouble working at the projects I start so I'm not sure if I get around to making this, but it's kind of nice to have a working idea and then the work is sort of trivial and grindy 20180516 16:42:06<+discordbot> making custom factions is a lot of work 20180516 16:42:13<+discordbot> but its so fun when its done 20180516 16:42:31<+discordbot> too bad i lost my backup of my original custom factions for battlechest 20180516 16:42:34<+discordbot> or at least i think i did 20180516 16:42:36< hk238> yeah I actually tried making an era before but I set a little too ambitious or arduous goals and ended up abandoning the project 20180516 16:42:37<+discordbot> so disorganized... 20180516 16:42:53< hk238> also in retrospect there were some thematic problems in part due to sort of immature ideation 20180516 16:43:13<+discordbot> id say just go with what u have 20180516 16:43:17<+discordbot> make it happen 20180516 16:43:19<+discordbot> and tweak it later 20180516 16:43:21-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 16:43:30<+discordbot> and whatever u do dont get overwhelmed and delete it like i did πŸ˜„ 20180516 16:43:43< hk238> yeah if I get around to doing all the work this is definitely plausible reflecting on these ideas they seem like they should work, or there's at least some potential 20180516 16:43:48<+discordbot> seriously regret deciding to axe custom factions from my mod 20180516 16:44:20< hk238> one of the goals I'd like to pursue is to expand the gameplay complexity, problem with that is that it's inherently a little incompatible with default 20180516 16:44:29< hk238> and I'm not sure if it's fun to make a faction for mirror only games 20180516 16:44:47<+discordbot> era of magic has a lot of extended abilities 20180516 16:44:56<+discordbot> that u can call in your unit files 20180516 16:45:09< hk238> basically by expanding the gameplay complexity and increasing conditional dependencies between gameplay mechanics like terrain creates room for meaningfully different units and gameplay styles 20180516 16:45:34<+discordbot> well i tried to overhaul the strategic element, and get unit tactic based gameplay working 20180516 16:45:39<+discordbot> and i had two factions that did that pretty well 20180516 16:45:52<+discordbot> so its definitely possible 20180516 16:46:07< hk238> for an example a simple triad I was thinking is dodge, parry and block (which are common in mmorpgs) 20180516 16:46:09<+discordbot> i really should see if i can recover them somewhere 20180516 16:46:26<+discordbot> ah well thats a bit more complicated isnt it 20180516 16:46:33< hk238> and I was thinking about working the dodge ability, well I got that pretty much worked out already, you'd have like 2 counters 20180516 16:46:36<+discordbot> why do you need anything more than a miss to represent that? 20180516 16:46:46<+discordbot> what is the meaningful difference? 20180516 16:46:48< hk238> and for each counter there'd be a 25% chance to dodge a non-magical non-marksmanship attack 20180516 16:47:00< hk238> and if you do succesfully dodge an attack then counter is depleted 20180516 16:47:07< hk238> so you can dodge a maximum of two attacks 20180516 16:47:26< hk238> this mechanic would then differentiate the units defensive capabilities with respect to the number of swings of assailant party 20180516 16:47:31<+discordbot> that my friend is a lot of working around that you are proposing 20180516 16:47:41<+discordbot> WML is not so robust as to make implementing that an easy thing 20180516 16:47:44< hk238> since if you dodge both attacks from a grunt it's more effective than dodging two attacks from an elf fighter 20180516 16:48:01<+discordbot> you are gonna be battling the WML 20180516 16:48:12< hk238> yeah I think this ability wouldn't be too hard to implement 20180516 16:48:16< hk238> but I might be mistaken about that 20180516 16:48:35< hk238> so then another ability I was thinking is parry, and it would simply be that in melee combat the opponents chance to hit is reduced by 10% 20180516 16:48:38<+discordbot> i dont wanna be a buzzkill 20180516 16:48:43<+discordbot> but it will be very difficult to implement 20180516 16:49:13<+discordbot> if at all possible 20180516 16:49:30<+discordbot> afaik a lot of what you want to do requires reaching into things that are not touched by WML 20180516 16:49:32< hk238> you may be right, the mechanic on paper is pretty simple but I'm not sure how easy it's to create a counter for the dodge counters and an event that allows missing attacks 20180516 16:50:11< hk238> parry then would go with this triad, by differentiating the units ability to defend against melee attacks compared to attacks, i was thinking two of the elves could have this, the elf knight 20180516 16:50:34< hk238> I was thinking I'd give it 40% defense on flat and hills and 50% in forests, which would amount to 50 on flat for melee and 60 for melee in forests 20180516 16:50:43-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180516 16:50:53< hk238> it might be tricky to balance but that would sort of shift the unit to a drake style gameplay 20180516 16:51:11<+discordbot> if i could give u any advice, id say go for the simplest things first (creating the units, assigning a model to represent it, creating its attacks, creating defenses, movement ranges etc) 20180516 16:51:19< hk238> so a uni with parry, such as two swords and a parry, is vulnerable to ranged attacks 20180516 16:51:23<+discordbot> and worry about modifying the game mechanics much later 20180516 16:51:34< hk238> I think that ability already exists too 20180516 16:51:40<+discordbot> in fact i would say dont build the custom faction on the assumption that u can modify the game mechanics 20180516 16:51:42< hk238> and it's exactly like I want it to be too 20180516 16:52:17< hk238> ahvth yeah it could be there's a problem but it should work I mean these are pretty simple things 20180516 16:52:20<+discordbot> Why not the reverse order? If you try to modify the game mechanics first and fail to do it, then you know to design without the custom mechanics. 20180516 16:52:28< hk238> if some ability is difficult to implement then it can canceled 20180516 16:53:01<+discordbot> @jyrkive idk probably my personal preference. but theres a lot of merit to what u said. 20180516 16:53:38<+discordbot> i find it much easier to tackle the easy stuff first, and then as u go along u discover things on the side and have time to work out paths to accomplishing the biggest goals 20180516 16:53:46<+discordbot> but this is just a matter of personal preference 20180516 16:53:50<+discordbot> and working style 20180516 16:54:07<+discordbot> the easy stuff is usually the bulk of the work anyways πŸ˜„ 20180516 16:54:07< hk238> yeah you're right but I've tried doing this before and I have some vague memories 20180516 16:54:23< hk238> about having some problems with some stuff being too difficult 20180516 16:54:49< hk238> and then others being really simple to implement.. like other things being inherently easier to implement in WML than others, due to some mechanics being built-in 20180516 16:55:01< hk238> but I don't remember much anything anymore it's been a few years 20180516 16:55:02< hk238> :D 20180516 16:55:43<+discordbot> theres a lot of wml events here that could be useful for reacting to individual attacks and forming ur counters 20180516 16:55:55<+discordbot> attacker/defender hits/mises 20180516 16:56:02<+discordbot> attack end 20180516 16:56:04<+discordbot> etc 20180516 16:56:09<+discordbot> more than i recall 20180516 16:56:27< hk238> the dodge counter ability also has the quality that it's less useful when a unit gets attacked by opponents 20180516 16:56:57< hk238> so it makes the unit better for sort of one-on-one unit stand offs due to the same logic as with the previous grunt/fighter example 20180516 16:57:01<+discordbot> so u initiate the counters at the beginning of combat 20180516 16:57:04<+discordbot> based on what again? 20180516 16:57:20< hk238> sorry no it's at the beginning of the players turn 20180516 16:57:33<+discordbot> i see 20180516 16:57:42<+discordbot> so u just have a fixed number of blocks? 20180516 16:57:44< hk238> so between the start of your turn the unit can dodge 2 attacks maximum with 2 counters 20180516 16:57:51<+discordbot> aha 20180516 16:57:55< hk238> bu there's also a chance to fail dodging 20180516 16:58:05<+discordbot> and when u fail it uses up ur counter? 20180516 16:58:28< hk238> that's a possibility, but currently I was thinking only a succesful dodge would consume a counter 20180516 16:58:41<+discordbot> i like that better anyways 20180516 16:59:04<+discordbot> does anything go into the likeliness to block/dodge? 20180516 16:59:10<+discordbot> like opponents stats? 20180516 16:59:35< hk238> so if you have two counters, then you'd have a 1- 0.75^2 chance to dodge, which is 45% 20180516 16:59:46< hk238> that might be too high though 20180516 16:59:57<+discordbot> its not high if a failed dodge uses the counter 20180516 17:00:01<+discordbot> but otherwise it is 20180516 17:00:04< hk238> that's true 20180516 17:00:22< hk238> also another possibility is that there's just 1 counter 20180516 17:00:35< hk238> it's less complex though but much easier to balance 20180516 17:00:59< hk238> but that also increases the volatility of the ability with respect to low number of attacks 20180516 17:01:24< hk238> since with 4 attacks you're likely to spend the counter, and with 2 attacks there's a big chance you won't spend a counter 20180516 17:01:39<+discordbot> i mean this still raises the question in my head, of why a block/dodge/parry is necessary when misses are already modelled 20180516 17:01:48<+discordbot> i mean 20180516 17:01:50< hk238> still the damage reduction per counter is equal to the damage per swing of the opponent, so with balanced dmg/swings ratios it tends to optimize towards being better against units with low hits 20180516 17:01:53<+discordbot> if the current miss mechanic 20180516 17:01:58<+discordbot> were to be replaced by what youre recommending 20180516 17:02:05<+discordbot> that would make more sense in my mind at least 20180516 17:02:17< hk238> the dodge mechanic is intended to differentiate the units ability to defend against different ratios of dmg/swings 20180516 17:02:25<+discordbot> cause you are introducing a lot of opportunities for attacks not to connect on top of the already existing miss 20180516 17:02:28< hk238> so a dodging unit would be a good against grunts, bad against elf fighters 20180516 17:02:30<+discordbot> which could get really irritating in practice 20180516 17:02:52<+discordbot> i see what youre saying 20180516 17:02:57< hk238> you're correct simply increasing defense of a unit needs to be balanced elsewhere, such as resistances or initial defenses 20180516 17:03:13< hk238> so having this dodge ability increases gameplay complexity by a notch, a very small one 20180516 17:03:25<+discordbot> what i was getting at is more that if u want to create opportunities to avoid attack 20180516 17:03:31<+discordbot> consider removing the current miss mechanic 20180516 17:03:37< hk238> which creates room for meaningfully different units, a tiny bit. By doing several such mechanics you can increase gameplay complexity overall 20180516 17:03:41<+discordbot> and replacing it with your three different varieties of miss 20180516 17:04:03< hk238> that's not my current idea since it's way too big a change to replace th ecurrent mechanic and it's not something I'd like to do either 20180516 17:04:35<+discordbot> there are already mods that replace the current accuracy mechanic with damage mitigation based on accuracy % 20180516 17:04:52<+discordbot> all youd have to do is import that behavior and layer yours on top of it 20180516 17:05:02<+discordbot> just my thoughts anyways πŸ˜„ 20180516 17:05:07< hk238> yeah there are lots of mods to look into surely 20180516 17:05:37< hk238> this triad of dodge parry block.. I think it's a bit too much to put into just one faction.. so it does create incompatibility with default 20180516 17:05:56<+discordbot> you would have to make the behavior universal 20180516 17:06:06< hk238> but for starters I was thinking juts go with the parry for the knight, and the 2 round 'zerker unit as a shock troop 20180516 17:06:45< hk238> yes it's an ability you could have on a unit. Just that if you have several new abilities in one faction it can create distance from the mechanics of the existing factions potentially making it incompatible 20180516 17:07:33<+discordbot> well 20180516 17:07:40<+discordbot> you could put these mechanics in a macro file 20180516 17:07:46<+discordbot> and just call it in each unit 20180516 17:08:04<+discordbot> like [EG_PARRY_DODGE_BLOCK_APPLIES] 20180516 17:08:17<+discordbot> and just copy paste the original factions 20180516 17:08:32<+discordbot> with that macro called on each mainline unit 20180516 17:08:52< hk238> yeah it would be a possibility to do this with existing factions such as 20180516 17:09:09< hk238> add block for heavy infantry, parry for fencer, dodge for thief for an example 20180516 17:09:28< hk238> but so far I was thinking the default would stay as they are 20180516 17:09:47< hk238> it's a lot more work to start tweaking everything in the first place, just a new faction with some elves.. that's the current goal 20180516 17:10:17< hk238> and the default already works well so there's no need to touch it either 20180516 17:10:32< hk238> although.. some fresh changes could be interesting 20180516 17:11:45< hk238> by the way I was thinking about creating a lesser skirmisher ability, basically you could ignore 1 hex of zone of control but not several.. Does that seem difficult to implement? 20180516 17:14:10<+discordbot> well you basically have to reimplement zone of control functionality using [modify_unit] 20180516 17:14:33<+discordbot> id say its in the "doable but not at all simple" category 20180516 17:14:43<+discordbot> i think all the tools exist to do it, in other words 20180516 17:15:13< Ravana_> possible, but removes undo 20180516 17:15:34< hk238> oh interesting and..difficult? 20180516 17:15:35< hk238> :D 20180516 17:34:42-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 17:34:48-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 17:46:34<+discordbot> hmm, I think it could be implemented fairly simply using a combination of skirmisher and enter/exit hex events. but the UI would show incorrect movement range. 20180516 17:51:23<+discordbot> hmm... it might even be possible to do it with straight [skirmisher] AbilitiesWML, a really complex unit filter, and a moveto event. 20180516 17:52:37<+discordbot> but the location filtering would use a huge radius so that might be hackish and slow 20180516 17:57:53-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc138.goemobile.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180516 17:57:55-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc138.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 18:01:27< zookeeper> yeah, i'm pretty sure there's no way to do a 1-hex skirmisher properly, no matter how hacky you get. the functionality could be done, but it'd show up wrong in the UI and that's of course a deal-breaker in that case. 20180516 18:03:34< hk238> hm how about something else like skirmisher with a filter that if enemy controls a hex then movenet cost in that hex is doubled? 20180516 18:03:35-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc138.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180516 18:03:44< hk238> but that wouldn't have quite the same meaning :o 20180516 18:23:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 18:24:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 18:24:43< zookeeper> doesn't seem possible, either 20180516 18:27:31-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 18:30:38<+discordbot> Hi fellas πŸ˜ƒ Any word on bringing Windows Wesnoth from 32 bit to 64 bit to match Mac and Linux? 20180516 18:37:27<+discordbot> zookeeper, you could use filter_radius in the skirmisher ability to gather all the empty hexes within this_unit.movement range that aren't adjacent to an enemy with ZoC, then use another radius to grow it by two hexes. I'm not sure how well the UI would respect it though. 20180516 18:41:30<+discordbot> (you'd need a enter_hex and separate logic to handle the case where they stop after the first ZoC but before reaching the second ZoC) 20180516 18:48:31-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 18:53:53< zookeeper> uh, but that filter would then encompass all hexes within movement range (assuming enemies aren't in massively dense blob groups) 20180516 18:54:25< zookeeper> meaning you could skirmisher through however many ZoC hexes you want. 20180516 18:54:50< zookeeper> oh wait, i think i misunderstood. 20180516 18:55:13< zookeeper> hmm. yeah, not sure if that would work but seems to make cursory sense :P 20180516 18:56:42< zookeeper> i'd expect the UI to respect it... well, probably. maybe? or at least you could make it do so by storing the unit starting position x,y in separate variables. 20180516 18:58:00< zookeeper> oh, wait, no that can't work. imagine two lines of enemies forming a tunnel that you can move between, or something. 20180516 18:58:37-!- Fr_Dae [~Dae@85-169-97-44.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 19:00:54< Fr_Dae> Bonjour, y a t'il des francophone qui aurais une heures par semaine Γ  tuΓ©e pour aidΓ© l'avancΓ© de la traduction de la 1.14 en cours (Dae#5125 sur discord ) 20180516 19:12:24-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-79-9.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 19:12:42-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-79-9.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 19:24:31<+discordbot> looks like Albion Online MMORPG finally went live on Steam today 20180516 19:25:29<+discordbot> I've been getting their newsletter for ages... but I don't play MMORPG anymore 20180516 19:52:15< hk238> can you compare the hexes a skirmisher could move to the hexes a non-skirmisher could move? 20180516 19:53:08< hk238> hm I don't know 20180516 19:57:38-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 19:58:52-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 20:21:40< zookeeper> sure, you can build a filter that matches hexes a skirmisher can move to, and another that matches ones a non-skirmisher can move to 20180516 20:23:20-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 20:39:12-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180516 20:46:22-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180516 20:53:35-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 21:00:49< hk238> I'm having trouble coming up with a name for the city :o 20180516 21:32:39-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180516 21:38:01<+discordbot> what city? 20180516 21:50:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 21:50:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 22:03:43-!- Fr_Dae [~Dae@85-169-97-44.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180516 22:20:07-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 22:30:14-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 22:30:25-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180516 22:34:51-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 22:36:19-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 22:52:43-!- HeyCitiz- [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.0 - https://znc.in] 20180516 22:53:25-!- HeyCitizen [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 23:03:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180516 23:03:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180516 23:41:11-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth --- Log closed Thu May 17 00:00:25 2018