--- Log opened Thu May 17 00:00:25 2018 20180517 00:07:45-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 00:08:08-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 00:41:50-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20180517 00:43:29<+discordbot> the android version is kept pretty up to date yeah? 20180517 00:43:42-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 00:45:07-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180517 00:47:48<+discordbot> Not really. It's still at 1.12. 20180517 00:48:09<+discordbot> there's an experimental 1.13.8 version 20180517 00:48:37<+discordbot> which was supposed to be to check about doing 1.14 as well 20180517 00:51:53<+discordbot> The amount of changes between 1.13.8 and 1.13.11 is absurd. 20180517 00:52:24<+discordbot> So it's rather unfortunate that it's fallen behind so much. 20180517 01:12:30-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180517 01:14:34-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 01:15:59-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180517 03:02:38-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 03:11:56-!- sevu [~Shiki@p548540F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 03:11:57-!- sevu [~Shiki@p548540F2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20180517 03:40:03-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [] 20180517 03:55:16-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180517 03:58:02-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 04:08:57-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180517 04:27:21<+discordbot> <覗き魔> I want a colour in my name so I can feel special. 20180517 04:28:23<+discordbot> <覗き魔> I almost tagged Discord Mods for the lols but I didn't have the balls :bhammer: 20180517 04:31:23<+discordbot> You can't feel special enough having fancy characters for your name? 20180517 04:31:39<+discordbot> says the guy whose name is a loss meme 20180517 04:32:14<+discordbot> <覗き魔> loss meme? 20180517 04:32:56-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 04:33:17<+discordbot> Click and see the non-nickname :P 20180517 04:33:19<+discordbot> <覗き魔> how do you strike your text? 20180517 04:33:33<+discordbot> ~~like so~~ 20180517 04:33:48<+discordbot> <覗き魔> i am gay 20180517 04:34:01<+discordbot> <覗き魔> :thonk: 20180517 04:34:07<+discordbot> That escalated quickly >.> 20180517 04:34:44<+discordbot> <覗き魔> I just ruined the wesnoth general chat 20180517 04:35:01<+discordbot> <覗き魔> thanks for the help! 20180517 04:35:09<+discordbot> <覗き魔> 😉 20180517 04:35:22<+discordbot> What. 20180517 04:35:48<+discordbot> <覗き魔> ye im flattering myself, it wouldnt be that easy. i tried tho 20180517 04:36:41<+discordbot> Random question: Is the red twirly food spelled licorice or liquorice? 20180517 04:36:57<+discordbot> Both. 20180517 04:37:15<+discordbot> It depends which side of the Atlantic Ocean you live in. 20180517 04:37:51<+discordbot> I live in Utha, USA 20180517 04:37:53<+discordbot> *Utah 20180517 04:38:03<+discordbot> So is it the c or the qu here? 20180517 04:38:08<+discordbot> <覗き魔> is there an Utah outside USA? 20180517 04:38:21<+discordbot> The American spelling is licorice. 20180517 04:40:28<+discordbot> Okay. 20180517 04:40:55<+discordbot> I was freaking out because of a pun with Liquor and Liquor-ice. 20180517 04:41:11<+discordbot> The weird fish and chips people spell it wrong 20180517 04:41:57<+discordbot> <覗き魔> is a meme channel here out of question? 20180517 04:42:06<+discordbot> <覗き魔> :bowman: 20180517 04:42:11<+discordbot> We are all memes 20180517 04:42:18<+discordbot> Nope, there isn't any such. 20180517 04:42:28<+discordbot> <覗き魔> and will never be? 20180517 04:42:58<+discordbot> English....is just weird. 20180517 04:43:03<+discordbot> ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 20180517 04:43:13<+discordbot> Like half the spellings are mildly infuriating to me. 20180517 04:43:17<+discordbot> I mean this channel is basically for everything, including memes 20180517 04:43:37<+discordbot> <覗き魔> @Crushmaster why should i trust someone with no special colour name 20180517 04:43:46<+discordbot> Because I'm an old man and thus have wisdom 20180517 04:44:07<+discordbot> <覗き魔> your cartoon picture doesnt have grey hair though 20180517 04:44:18<+discordbot> That was the younger days 😉 20180517 04:44:29<+discordbot> keep in mind rule 5 if you want to meme 20180517 04:44:31<+discordbot> Those were, rather 20180517 04:44:44<+discordbot> both 4 and 5 20180517 04:44:46<+discordbot> <覗き魔> I don't read no rules. 20180517 04:44:56<+discordbot> ban him 20180517 04:44:56<+discordbot> <覗き魔> lmao 20180517 04:44:57<+discordbot> that leaves you liable to being banned 20180517 04:45:08<+discordbot> if you happen to violate them 20180517 04:45:09<+discordbot> <覗き魔> is there a rule that makes you bannable if you dont read rules? 20180517 04:45:19<+discordbot> Read the rules and find out 20180517 04:45:19<+discordbot> As a matter of fact, yes. 20180517 04:45:19<+discordbot> Would you know either way? 20180517 04:45:49<+discordbot> <覗き魔> "8. Claiming not to have read the rules is not an excuse for breaking them.(edited)" not quite the same lol 20180517 04:46:01<+discordbot> Not really. 20180517 04:46:35<+discordbot> <覗き魔> "4. Any form of discrimination towards people or groups of people will not be tolerated and will result in a ban. This applies to both the language you use (e.g. derogatory slurs) as well as your conduct, whether intended as a joke or otherwise. 5. Posting or discussing any content of a controversial, illicit, political, gratuituously violent, or sexual nature is not allowed. Bear in mind that there are minors and people at their 20180517 04:46:36<+discordbot> workplace on this server and on IRC. If you are in doubt about whether something is acceptable or not, ask a mod before posting." memes are impossible 20180517 04:46:51<+discordbot> Not impossible. 20180517 04:46:52<+discordbot> Unpolitical memes are not. 20180517 04:46:53<+discordbot> Your memes must really suck then. 20180517 04:47:01<+discordbot> <覗き魔> the fun ones are impossible then 20180517 04:47:04<+discordbot> Look, I am a VERY political person at times. 20180517 04:47:10<+discordbot> But I choose not to bring it here. 20180517 04:47:27<+discordbot> I don't run this server, I don't make the rules. 20180517 04:47:42<+discordbot> there's enough politics elsewhere, anyway 20180517 04:47:52<+discordbot> if you want to argue on that, there's looooots of places you can go 20180517 04:47:54<+discordbot> I am only a member here and so I have chosen to respect the staff, and their rules, since this is their server. 20180517 04:48:40<+discordbot> As a person who likes memes far too much, I think it's fair to say you're better off taking them elsewhere 👀 20180517 04:48:46<+discordbot> <覗き魔> damn looks like I could have pingged the mods unnecessarily "6. Avoid pinging project members, website admins, or board members unnecessarily. Demanding things from them is not allowed. Remember that we're all volunteers working on this game in our spare time." 20180517 04:50:05<+discordbot> having grumpy mods probably isn't going to work to your advantage 😬 20180517 04:50:15<+discordbot> <覗き魔> rules exist so they can be imposed when convenient, broken by those who can, and distorted whenever possible 20180517 04:50:32<+discordbot> Are you done yet? 20180517 04:51:29<+discordbot> <覗き魔> looks like i unintentionally hit a soft spot lol 20180517 04:51:52<+discordbot> No, you're just mischaracterizing the truth and the mods 20180517 04:51:53<+discordbot> ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 20180517 04:51:59<+discordbot> sigh Rules exist so there can be rule. Without rule there is no order. Without order there is tyranny and anarchy. 20180517 04:52:10<+discordbot> <覗き魔> i was talking about everything in general, not this server 😄 20180517 04:52:16<+discordbot> I'm not gonna get to the politics of it 20180517 04:52:26<+discordbot> And I'm sorry if I sounded rude, I'm always tired. 20180517 04:52:33<+discordbot> <覗き魔> you didn't 20180517 04:52:41<+discordbot> (and now I'm interested in talking politics with you 👀 ) 20180517 04:52:56<+discordbot> <覗き魔> i'm not the one taking a wesnoth random conversation seriously :bowman: 20180517 04:53:12<+discordbot> Basically everything on this server is taken seriously 20180517 04:53:24<+discordbot> <覗き魔> like the internet 20180517 04:53:36<+discordbot> This... isn't your average internet. 20180517 04:53:49<+discordbot> it's advanced internet? 20180517 04:54:03<+discordbot> I don't know that I care to characterize it specifically 20180517 04:54:14<+discordbot> This reminded me of how wild the Wesnoth off-topic forums were like ten years ago 20180517 04:54:15<+discordbot> but it is much closer to the state of affairs in meatspace 👀 20180517 04:54:51<+discordbot> <覗き魔> @Crushmaster they no longer are? 20180517 04:55:00<+discordbot> Nope, they're kinda ded now 20180517 04:55:05<+discordbot> <覗き魔> the rules? 20180517 04:55:17<+discordbot> Aight, going to bed now, so don't expect more out of me 👀 20180517 04:55:22<+discordbot> Mostly just inactivity 20180517 05:01:41-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180517 05:42:16<+discordbot> <覗き魔> "One learns to itch where one can scratch." -- Ernest Bramah 20180517 05:49:44-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 06:00:19<+discordbot> Is there a way to connect to the 1.12 add-on server through the client in 1.14? 20180517 06:12:56<+discordbot> I'll take that as a "no" and get on with things. 20180517 06:28:15<+discordbot> yes 20180517 06:30:29<+discordbot> @Fairfir connect to add-ons.wesnoth.org:15002 20180517 06:31:01<+discordbot> The ping. It bur... Oh hey it worked. Thanks. 20180517 06:40:52-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 06:57:24-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 07:50:23<+discordbot> Hi all! :] im bored lol 20180517 08:08:06<+discordbot> btw I have a question 20180517 08:08:20<+discordbot> are older wesnoth versions mp server and addon server still alive? 20180517 08:08:41<+discordbot> add-ons are here: http://add-ons.wesnoth.org/ 20180517 08:09:26<+discordbot> for MP, 1.12 is still around, and I think 1.10 is still up for the iphone iOS version. 20180517 08:09:58<+discordbot> yep 20180517 08:10:00<+discordbot> https://status.wesnoth.org/ 20180517 08:10:18<+discordbot> 1.10 primary MP server is still around 20180517 08:10:18-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180517 08:10:20< zookeeper> both the 1.10 and 1.12 add-on servers seem to work just fine for me, dunno why (i think) someone said earlier they're not up. 20180517 08:10:20-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@2001:2c0:40e:2002:3deb:fe99:21b3:c4ba] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 08:11:03<+discordbot> Not all previous add-ons are compatible with the current 1.14 build. 20180517 08:11:27<+discordbot> Just tried one and it likely could not be read by the scenario list in mp. :\ 20180517 08:11:36<+discordbot> Ah well. Theres other add-ons to be had. 20180517 08:11:54<+discordbot> The rest worked though. 20180517 08:12:25<+discordbot> you shouldn't expect saves or add-ons to work between stable releases. If they do, then that's great, but compatibility between stable releases isn't something that's aimed for. 20180517 08:27:10-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@2001:2c0:40e:2002:3deb:fe99:21b3:c4ba] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20180517 08:27:44<+discordbot> Well, it's aimed for, but never really met 20180517 08:27:59<+discordbot> >.> 20180517 08:29:52<+discordbot> If it was totally not aimed for we would have no deprecation and immediately remove everything 20180517 08:33:54<+discordbot> You're still removing things very lightly considering that every removal breaks saves. 20180517 08:34:44-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 08:34:46<+discordbot> What do you mean? 20180517 08:34:59<+discordbot> The commits where I removed the deprecated stuff? 20180517 08:35:23<+discordbot> According to http://wiki.wesnoth.org/NotSoEasyCoding#Don.27t_store_all_events_in_savefiles we currently store events in save files. 20180517 08:35:51<+discordbot> Thus, removing anything that's used by an event breaks all saves which contain such an event. 20180517 08:36:02<+discordbot> Huh 20180517 08:36:12<+discordbot> Should probably change that 20180517 08:38:05<+discordbot> if you want to go to a rolling release model, then coming up with a solution to backwards compatibility in general is a pre-requisite. 20180517 08:39:14<+discordbot> can't exactly use the current approach of "don't expect it to work" every six months. 20180517 08:39:27<+discordbot> that is true 20180517 08:39:37<+discordbot> definitely need to get events out of savefiles 20180517 08:48:47-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20180517 08:48:55-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 08:58:49-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 20180517 08:59:00-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 09:00:02< zookeeper> having events in savefiles does help with compatibility in some cases, though. if the event logic has technical changes from 1.14.3 to 1.14.4, then _not_ storing events in mid-scenario savefiles could cause the 1.14.3 save to break in 1.14.4. possibly not a major issue since it'd only affect mid-scenario saves (and rarely), but something you need to be aware of regardless. 20180517 09:00:45< zookeeper> not sure if there are anything else that could be relevant. we have :inspect so one doesn't really need to look at savefiles to see how preprocessing happened, etc, which would have been an issue before :inspect. 20180517 09:02:04<+discordbot> Event logic changes should be avoided as much as possible. Changing semantics of existing code is even worse than simply removing something, because removals at least give clear error messages. 20180517 09:02:59< zookeeper> i meant the event logic of a particular scenario, not engine 20180517 09:03:30<+discordbot> not really? 20180517 09:03:33<+discordbot> you can't save mid-event 20180517 09:03:42<+discordbot> it just means you'd get the new behavior 20180517 09:06:03< zookeeper> multiple events. triggering at different times. the latter event assuming the previous event did what it was written to do. 20180517 09:06:27< hk238> hmm I'm thinking about making this elf faction and I need to get started but I have trouble coming up with a name and it's so central to all of this. I've been ranting about this on the channel, but the idea is to make an era with an elf faction. So I was thinking about having a lore explanation for the elves that they're from a certain city.. And the name of the would elves of [insert cityname] 20180517 09:06:34< hk238> *faction 20180517 09:06:40<+discordbot> that's not an engine bug 20180517 09:06:43<+discordbot> it's a scenario bug 20180517 09:06:56< zookeeper> you're confused 20180517 09:07:01<+discordbot> if you change event a and event b relies on the old behavior of event b, the problem is not in the save files 20180517 09:07:14<+discordbot> old behavior of event a* 20180517 09:09:07<+discordbot> anyway, I think not saving events in savefiles should be a safe change for 1.14, we just need to ensure savefiles with events are properly read. 20180517 09:09:14< zookeeper> event a triggers, does stuff. you save. you update wesnoth, scenario logic changes. new event b triggers, assumes _new_ event a has triggered previously, and breaks. 20180517 09:10:43<+discordbot> IMO, there isn't much we can do to keep save files compatible when scenarios are edited. There is just too much state. 20180517 09:10:46< zookeeper> as said, it'd be a rare case and not a blocker, but you need to be aware beforehand that sooner or later it'd happen to someone. 20180517 09:15:09< hk238> hm is it possible to edit forum topic retrospectively? I was wondering I could start the forum thread with a tag "city of [name], elves" then when I come up with something edit it afterwards..? 20180517 09:15:36< hk238> it would look bad after a while if it's not editable 20180517 09:16:15< zookeeper> yes, by editing the first post 20180517 09:17:14< hk238> thanks I had to be sure.. :D 20180517 09:26:57-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180517 09:47:27-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 09:53:39-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 10:03:20-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20180517 10:15:24< hk238> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=48201 20180517 10:15:48< hk238> there I made a post regarding the faction and also as a teaser created a storyline beginning 20180517 10:15:49< hk238> :D 20180517 10:18:56-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-106-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 10:25:21< zookeeper> well, to begin with, there wouldn't be a marvellous elvish city in wesnoth, and they certainly wouldn't be primarily interested in recording the history of _wesnoth_. 20180517 10:25:46-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180517 10:27:29< hk238> sorry it's a bit cliché :o Do you have a suggestion? :D 20180517 10:28:56< zookeeper> it's not a cliché, it just doesn't make any sense. wesnoth isn't the word, wesnoth is just a kingdom that encompasses a fraction of the world. you could place your city in lintarir forest, for example. that's a forest about the size of wesnoth, not much is known about it or how much what kind of elvish cities there are, etc etc. 20180517 10:29:02< zookeeper> s/word/world 20180517 10:30:08< Necrosporus> zookeeper, that's a big forest 20180517 10:30:18<+discordbot> the world's name is Irdya 20180517 10:30:28< Necrosporus> Can you tell, if Wesnoth was on Earth which modern state it would be comparable with? 20180517 10:30:33< Necrosporus> Like France? 20180517 10:30:35< hk238> I mean the whole thing has a lot of resonance with common themes in all kinds of stories, and as such there's a bit of a clichéish ring to it.. I'm totally unfamiliar with the Wesnoth lore and would prefer there to be compatibility.. So Lintarir forest? That sounds pretty good. Should I replace wesnoth with world? 20180517 10:32:20< zookeeper> uh, well if you're totally unfamiliar with the wesnoth lore then that's probably what you should become familiar with first. it's not like you can create content compatible with a setting you're unfamiliar with. 20180517 10:32:52<+discordbot> not that we have THAT much lore 😛 20180517 10:32:58< hk238> :D 20180517 10:34:02< hk238> You're right it would be good to be familiar with the lore, I mean I have played the standard campaigns but can't remember things exactly.. Lintarir forest seems to be at the top right corner of the initial map. The key focus is on creating an era, but that's no excuse for neglecting proper descriptions and lore 20180517 10:34:11< zookeeper> we have tons of history, but not much lore about what sort of cutlery elves use (except AOI tells us they use glasses for wine) or other fine details like that. 20180517 10:35:00< hk238> I was thinking that it doesn't need to be exactly compatible, since the things can be specific to the city and not to all elves in general, but I mean there still has to be similarity to some extent 20180517 10:36:47< zookeeper> well sure, as said lintanir isn't a location of which much has been told, so you can have a grand elvish city somewhere in there just fine. but they'd need to have some very particular reason to have much interest in wesnoth's affairs. 20180517 10:36:47<+discordbot> zookeeper: it doesn't feel much developed in some places 20180517 10:38:51< zookeeper> if you need some geographial/historical reference, then https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Geography_of_Wesnoth and https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Timeline_of_Wesnoth are for that. 20180517 10:39:08< zookeeper> oh, gotta fix the map image link there... 20180517 10:39:17< hk238> thanks :D 20180517 10:39:42< hk238> I guess I should replace "world" with "Irdya" 20180517 10:43:39< hk238> by the way I got this idea from reading geography of wesnoth 20180517 10:44:29< hk238> I could make a survival scenario with the city being sieged and then locate a library inside the city, the halls of memory, and when you'd move to the bookcases, it would open up descriptions similar to those of Geography of wesnoth page 20180517 10:44:42< hk238> that would be possibly an interesting way to learn about wesnoth lore :D 20180517 10:45:35< hk238> it doesn't have to be survival. Could just be for the stories. People telling things. Perhaps just a storyline scenario. Right after Charos has been found, you can go around talking to people and they tell you things 20180517 10:45:40< hk238> and you can read things 20180517 10:46:16< hk238> oh that's a great idea I think I could do that, then include a forum poll with endless options on 'who did it' and people could vote based on playing the scenario, if they do so :D 20180517 10:46:38< hk238> well I don't know it's a lot of work, but could be fun too 20180517 10:47:45< hk238> can you edit polls while they're being voted on? Coz you could do an open poll where you could add options when people suggest them on the thread 20180517 10:49:35-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 10:50:52< hk238> could put the scenario in the add-on with the faction too 20180517 10:51:33< hk238> hmm I think it's a good idea I'm not sure if I can do that succesfully sounds pretty challenging narratorially and I'm not much of a storyteller 20180517 10:51:52< hk238> bring out the flowcharts! 20180517 10:51:54< hk238> :D 20180517 10:53:01< hk238> Hmm it could actually work really well. :o 20180517 10:54:59< hk238> or not it does seem very challenging, but interesting at the same time 20180517 10:56:33< zookeeper> that format of distributing lore in-game works way better in a different kind of game. 20180517 10:57:48< hk238> hmm I think this could work well 20180517 10:58:04< hk238> like you have this mystery scenario with basically just inhabitants of the city and you can talk to people and find out about recent events 20180517 10:58:50< hk238> and along side that you could investigate the recorded history which would have general descriptions about lore and more specific events. Not that it has to be 100% compatible with mainline but similarity would be good 20180517 10:59:35< hk238> Most people probably wouldn't find it interesting, they'd just download the era and try playing the scenario and would find it boring.. some people might find it interesting. A lot depends on how well I would write the events, and that's very tough 20180517 11:01:04< hk238> but so far that scenario is just an idea first I have to do this faction, otherwise I don't have units to place into the scenario 20180517 11:02:51< zookeeper> doesn't sound like a campaign like that necessarily requires custom units, could just do it with the normal elves initially. 20180517 11:05:40< zookeeper> humm. why did i recall that recently tooltip functionality was added to [item], if in reality it hasn't been? 20180517 11:06:42< hk238> if the scenario is supposed to be within the city about this faction, it would seem logical that I'd use the units of the faction. of course it's not absolutely necessary :o 20180517 11:10:32< hk238> humm :o 20180517 11:15:24< zookeeper> they're still the same elves as the rest, and it doesn't sound like them having slightly different unit types that we haven't seen elsewhere would be crucial to the campaign's plot. 20180517 11:15:28<+discordbot> Mhm, comparing ideas. 20180517 11:16:01<+discordbot> I thought about setting my campaign idea around YW 200 and northeast of wesmere forest. 20180517 11:16:57<+discordbot> ehm, northwest 20180517 11:17:03< hk238> sure I guess you're right it could be done with the same units 20180517 11:20:56< hk238> do you have any ideas about what kind of units to have by the way? It's still mostly sort of vague :o 20180517 11:22:03<+discordbot> Do you mean me or the conversation with zoo? 20180517 11:23:17< zookeeper> haven't thought about it. what i'd probably personally gravitate towards would be added advancements to the normal lvl1 units, like having the knights be a lvl2 unit that fighters can advance to. 20180517 11:24:31< zookeeper> of course, for units like mage and thief that wouldn't work. 20180517 11:25:10< hk238> hmm that's something to consider, but I was specifically thinking about dropping the elf fighter for both gameplay reasons and to not make too similar to Rebels as a faction 20180517 11:25:39<+discordbot> Well, you can always ditch the non-elve elements of the roster 20180517 11:25:55<+discordbot> Should do in fact for a purely elven faction. 20180517 11:26:41< zookeeper> actually, i just did have an idea of merging the knight and mage, some sort of druid/lord-combo warmage thing. but gotta go now. -> 20180517 11:27:06< zookeeper> (because platemail would be very unelvish) 20180517 11:27:15< hk238> it would be quite similar with rebels if I chose to keep elf fighter but gameplay is more important, elf fighter is a reasonably dynamic unit and to have it could not have no effect on gameplay, instead you could play lots of games by recruiting them as a mainstay 20180517 11:27:51< hk238> so to have a meaningfully different faction in terms of gameplay I think it's necessary to drop fighter, even though it lorewise is questionable 20180517 11:28:00<+discordbot> I mean, if you have a faction mostly in forest, maybe you would want to make the standard-unit more of a skirmish/stealth-fighter? 20180517 11:28:40< hk238> I find that reasoning to be a bit of a doesn't follow type logic 20180517 11:29:02<+discordbot> Why's that? 20180517 11:29:23<+discordbot> Forests just don't align well with riding or formation. 20180517 11:29:38<+discordbot> So skirmishing is kinda the go-to solution 20180517 11:29:43< hk238> it doesn't require that elves being forest-friendly race would depend on stealth 20180517 11:30:20< hk238> thus being a non-sequitur 20180517 11:30:38<+discordbot> My thought was more along the lines of "how would a race that does battle mainly in forest develop their tactical capabilities" 20180517 11:30:53<+discordbot> And came to guerilla-warfare and skirmishing, mostly 20180517 11:31:09< hk238> you're correct however there's this issue about scale 20180517 11:31:48< hk238> anyway you've a point but it's not something I see as necessary 20180517 11:32:31<+discordbot> Yeah. I'm just brainstorming to shoot a few ideas in your directon 20180517 11:33:03< hk238> and what comes to that, I was going to include elven archer from default, which has advancement lines with stealth 20180517 11:33:16< hk238> so in a sense your requirement is met 20180517 11:33:24<+discordbot> Another thing you could maybe go for were some tamed beasts/allied beasts (when reasonably intelligent) 20180517 11:33:41< hk238> sure if there's something that seems reasonable 20180517 11:35:17<+discordbot> So, do you want to have something to "hold the line" at all or do you want to design the faction about not having soemthing like that? 20180517 11:35:53< hk238> That's not entirely decided yet, I was thinking the knight unit would probably be a keypiece in determining how the faction plays 20180517 11:36:18< hk238> it having no ranged attack and being vulnerable to fire and arcane makes it complicated 20180517 11:37:14<+discordbot> Do you want the whole faction to be day/night neutral? 20180517 11:37:19< hk238> resistance to blade/pierce helps it against elven archers, and bowmen, and orcish archers, but they also have a fire attack, but it would be good to defend against grunts for an example.. but the chainmail unit would be more cost effective against grunts 20180517 11:37:36< hk238> I was thinking thief could be chaotic possibly, if all units are neutral it creates problems with gameplay dynamics 20180517 11:37:44< hk238> I'm not sure exactly how to solve that problem yet 20180517 11:38:03< hk238> just 1 unit with non-neutral alignment isn't enough 20180517 11:38:15< hk238> but primarily neutral, like the elves are 20180517 11:38:44< hk238> on the other hand having a unit with a 2 round berserker ability fixes some of the gameplay dynamics 20180517 11:38:50< hk238> so that could part of the solution 20180517 11:39:52< hk238> I was thinking the knight has to have some cold resistance, if it has a blade attack, and resist pierce and blade.. then with undead it's complicated that it fails against skeletons, DAs and ghosts too 20180517 11:40:12< hk238> so cold resistance and arcane vulnerability balances that somewhat 20180517 11:40:48< hk238> anyway those are details that need to worked out while adjusting numbers and such 20180517 11:40:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 11:40:55<+discordbot> If you give the knight arcane damage it should solve the problem with undead. 20180517 11:41:26< hk238> That I don't think is a good idea 20180517 11:42:17< hk238> I mean sure you can consider that but currently it seems a little off 20180517 11:42:54<+discordbot> mhm, so the core Fantasy is "City elves"? 20180517 11:43:17<+discordbot> like a more civil version of elves in contrast to the ones ingame at the moment? 20180517 11:43:50< hk238> In a sense yes that's what I was thinking at least to some extent 20180517 11:44:08< hk238> I started building the themes around a city so it kind of happened 20180517 11:46:08<+discordbot> So, you would porbably eliminate the wose, the merfolk and the mages from the rebel roster, right? 20180517 11:47:08< hk238> I was thinking about not having woses or human mages, but instead you would have an elven mage, that would neutral. Still elves seem to have an affinity for forests so they're not all that urban 20180517 11:47:36< hk238> keeping woses is still possible but so far I was thinking about only keeping archer and scout from rebels 20180517 11:47:50<+discordbot> Okay, let's go with that for the moment 20180517 11:48:14< hk238> and mermen are definitely off the list for now :D 20180517 11:48:55<+discordbot> These would then be something like the "outer guards" of the city state because the city is in forest-lands and they take a forward defending/Scouting/peacekeeping role? 20180517 11:49:23< hk238> woses? that would be plausible 20180517 11:49:37<+discordbot> I meant more the Archers and Scouts 20180517 11:49:54<+discordbot> But Woses could probably play into that, too. 20180517 11:49:58< hk238> oh well that's also plausible 20180517 11:50:29<+discordbot> I also think their advacement as-is are quite okay for the concept. 20180517 11:50:58< hk238> yeah I agree :o 20180517 11:51:39< hk238> I'm having trouble with deciding how to distribute these ideas, a unit with a chainmail, unit with two swords, thief, dodge, and 2 rounds zerker ability 20180517 11:52:03<+discordbot> With the ranger-advancement line being the Archers who go farther out from the city surveying the lands for longer terms and leading teams and the more damage oriented advancement would be someone who would be more oriented to fighting from the city-walls 20180517 11:52:09< hk238> it seems they crystallize into 3 units with a blade attack and it seems a lot.. also if there's a unit with a shield, I'm not sure which one it should be. Gameplaywise it would have to be the knight 20180517 11:53:14<+discordbot> So the knights are taking the functions of a "close guard", manning the city walls and also securing the peace inside the city like a guard-force? 20180517 11:54:38< hk238> so far all I have in mind is that they've platemail and a two-handed sword, whether or not they would have the shield would change how to perceive them. City walls imply shields.. no shields makes it more complicated 20180517 11:54:58< hk238> I'm having some trouble thinking about how to introduce pierce and/or impact with these 20180517 11:55:25< hk238> parry ability also seems to imply no shields 20180517 11:55:59< hk238> but there can be 3 units with blade attack but what should the thief have then? Piercing? 20180517 11:56:34<+discordbot> How do city walls imply shields? 20180517 11:57:13<+discordbot> Don't city walls have bits to cover behind in lieu of shields. 20180517 11:57:18<+discordbot> Yeah, shields are more for open terrain. on a wall, you are protected 20180517 11:57:19< hk238> because it implies less engagement, as the walls distance units from close-engagement, and shields function as cover against ranged attacks such as arrows 20180517 11:57:39< hk238> also there's less moving around so you don't need to have problems with carrying the shield 20180517 11:57:46<+discordbot> Any proper castle wall also functions as cover agaisnt ranged attacks, though. 20180517 11:57:54< hk238> but it's simultaneously also true that you need more cover elsewhere 20180517 11:58:10<+discordbot> battlements are created to function as "shields" 20180517 11:58:11<+discordbot> Although I understand if it is all a simplification. 20180517 11:58:24<+discordbot> Battlements, that's the word. 20180517 11:58:55< hk238> hmm well there's many views to take on this issue and suppose something would need to be decided on, but so far it can remain open too :o 20180517 11:59:09<+discordbot> yeah, okay, so you have knights. 20180517 11:59:55< hk238> archers would of course be most suitable for citywalls in that respect 20180517 12:00:06<+discordbot> You could always give them spears or halberds (halberds being the traditional weapon of many city watches in the middle ages) to introduce pierce 20180517 12:00:11< hk238> but I guess it's all complicated and I'm not exactly an expert in that area either :D 20180517 12:00:43< hk238> spears would also go well with shields, but so far that's not the idea, halberds on the other hand are probably two-handed? 20180517 12:01:04<+discordbot> Yes, halberds are two-handed 20180517 12:01:10< hk238> and them having spears would drastically alter their overall feel so I don't think that's an option for the knights 20180517 12:01:55<+discordbot> https://previews.123rf.com/images/tribalium123/tribalium1231705/tribalium123170500035/78752900-halberd-vector-illustration.jpg 20180517 12:02:05<+discordbot> here we have a classical halberd-design 20180517 12:02:26<+discordbot> Could give the unit a choice between to atatcks (one being a blade-attack, one being pierce) 20180517 12:02:47<+discordbot> As is already the case with existing halberd units. 20180517 12:03:10< hk238> yeah they do seem two-handed with the following intuitions: The blade on the tip of the spear increases weight and makes it harder to hold in a single hand. The blade also being pointed towards a direction orthogonal to the orientation of the spear implies you need to rotate it, which implies that you need to deal leverage issues. 20180517 12:03:44<+discordbot> That's correct 20180517 12:04:39< hk238> hmm drake arbiter has a halberd? What about the loyalist unit? It's piercing? 20180517 12:04:46<+discordbot> Some examples of existing halberd units in the base game: https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/en_US/Drake%20Arbiter.html https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/en_US/Drake%20Warden.html https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/en_US/Halberdier.html 20180517 12:05:02<+discordbot> The Pikeman has no halberd, but the Halberdier does. 20180517 12:05:11< hk238> oh right 20180517 12:05:23< hk238> yeah that makes sense 20180517 12:05:50< hk238> although I suppose the resistances are not particularly realistic they're probably more for gameplay reasons than simulation 20180517 12:06:03<+discordbot> In what sense? 20180517 12:06:31<+discordbot> Would you argue it is realistic for a skeleton or a tree to ignore an arrow shot through it? 20180517 12:06:39< hk238> I mean long story short it's easiest to resist cutting, then piercing, and then impact.. but at the same time it's easiest to deal damage by cutting, then piercing and with impact it's hardest 20180517 12:07:03< hk238> platemail protects especially well against blades 20180517 12:07:20< hk238> so I guess that's what I meant 20180517 12:07:33<+discordbot> Woses take most damage from cutting, then impact, then piercing. 20180517 12:07:50<+discordbot> Unless you mean specifically relating to armour? 20180517 12:08:14< hk238> yes I was referring to armour.. woses are sort of an exception since they're perceived as being solid wood 20180517 12:08:54< hk238> well I suppose my logic doesn't generalize to everything, so it's not entirely accurate 20180517 12:09:42<+discordbot> It's like how uhhh, the weakness of drakes in terms of mundane weaponry is piercing. 20180517 12:09:43< hk238> it has more to do with the geometry of cutting, it implies a line, and you can prevent the line by having like two orthogonal lines.. where as piercing implies a point 20180517 12:10:44<+discordbot> Cuts I'd say are one of the most damaging things but also the easiest to deflect. 20180517 12:11:01< hk238> impact then implies not a line nor a point, but rather a force, which can distribute over an area 20180517 12:11:08< hk238> yeah that's kind of what I was also thinking, nyvrem 20180517 12:11:12<+discordbot> Angle of impact is much more important to a cutting weapon than an impact weapon. 20180517 12:11:13<+discordbot> It's always a question what you use to defend. 20180517 12:11:39< hk238> like if you have an armor made of links, then arrows can go through 20180517 12:11:46<+discordbot> I mean, if you are up against someone wearing plate, dealing damage with impact is just a good bit easier then using cutting stuff. 20180517 12:11:47< hk238> but a sword cant cut through it 20180517 12:12:04<+discordbot> Heavy Infantry also has a very high piercing resistance, likely in part relating to the fact they use shields. https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/en_US/Heavy%20Infantryman.html 20180517 12:12:25< hk238> if you have platemail, it's comparatively more resistent towards trying to cut it, as the force distributes on a larger area, but it still protects against arrows well.. but thne if you have something with a lot of force, like an impact, it doesn't resist it that well 20180517 12:13:11< hk238> but it's hard to generate a lot of force, in a sense it's the opposite of cutting and piercing 20180517 12:13:22<+discordbot> Impact oriented weapons are most likely to ignore shields or deflection, but to something like a wose or a drake they aren't that effective. 20180517 12:13:30< hk238> which are intent with focusing the area of the force to a line or to a point 20180517 12:13:54<+discordbot> Generally blade and even piercing weapons rely on using a lot of force, because force is the easiest way for a man to make a weapon more damaging(in lieu of a quick and easy ripostle, of course) 20180517 12:14:16< hk238> shield I suppose in terms of simulation is most useful against impact, since you've to generate force, it takes time to accelerate, and the shield can move after impact, it can accelerate on impact, without causing problems 20180517 12:14:28<+discordbot> The issue is more in that a piercing/blade weapon can have the force redirected away from the target. 20180517 12:14:40<+discordbot> Shields are most useful against piercing and a bit agaisnt blade 20180517 12:14:48<+discordbot> if soemone bashes on your shield it will still hurt your arm, if they do it well 20180517 12:15:07<+discordbot> The best way to handle an impact with a shield is actually move with rather than against. 20180517 12:15:15< hk238> but comparatively it's much better to have an impact on the shield than on your worn armour 20180517 12:15:26<+discordbot> I mean, a two-hand-sword is basically an impact weapon for most purposes 20180517 12:15:43<+discordbot> a two hand sword still is focused on a single cutting line 20180517 12:15:51<+discordbot> well, of course, shields are great 20180517 12:16:11<+discordbot> there is a reason shields were used for such a long time 20180517 12:16:28<+discordbot> or still are, in some situations 20180517 12:16:36< hk238> I suppose it's true that you can also generate force on something that's sharp, so even though you would be able to distribute it on a larger area with the help of an armour, you could have a reasonable amount of force thus making it equivalent to impact.. but impacting is about generating force, not about focusing it 20180517 12:16:59<+discordbot> Shields mostly matter against piercing though, as it is easy to work against spears and arrows 20180517 12:17:11< hk238> like it doesnt really matter if it's a blunt stick or a sharp stick, what matters is like the mass and velocity, angular momentum 20180517 12:17:23< hk238> if it gets distributed by a worn armour 20180517 12:17:47<+discordbot> yes. Most two-handed swords weren't sharp for the most part. (in the way a knife would be sharp at least) 20180517 12:19:31<+discordbot> Well, but we derailed a good bit from the brainstorming about your units^^ 20180517 12:19:43< hk238> right this got into a physics or math discussion:D 20180517 12:19:54<+discordbot> But different resistances are also a big part of what keeps the game from being literally the same unit spam 100% in a lot of matchups 20180517 12:20:29< hk238> soon we'll be all doing ωr₁r₂m 20180517 12:20:31< hk238> :D 20180517 12:21:13< hk238> Or young's modulus on woses resistance to grappling 20180517 12:21:13<+discordbot> Well, if you want to differentiate the knights from elfish fighters, you should probably shift their defense a bit away from terrain-usage to damage resistance 20180517 12:22:06< hk238> yeah I was thinking it'd be like 30blade 30pierce 0impact 10cold -10fire -10arcane, 40 defense on flat, hills, 50 forests.. and parry which would increase defense by 10% in melee combat only 20180517 12:22:16< hk238> that's the current idea for that unit 20180517 12:23:03<+discordbot> are these mounted? 20180517 12:23:11< hk238> and somewhat expensive due to the armor being expensive, nope non-mounted 20180517 12:23:27<+discordbot> why a +10cold instead of a -10cold? 20180517 12:23:46< hk238> I was thinking it could be -10 cold, but since it has a blade attack and if it's to be the mainstay 20180517 12:24:02<+discordbot> I'd personally feel inclined to base it kind of on this https://units.wesnoth.org/1.14/mainline/en_US/Heavy%20Infantryman.html while incorporating the elvish -10arcane 20180517 12:24:05< hk238> then it has a problem with skeletons, DAs and ghosts, 20180517 12:24:18< hk238> HI has an impact melee so it's a huge difference in that respect 20180517 12:24:19<+discordbot> What are you making, anyhow? 20180517 12:24:26< hk238> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=48201&p=628314#p628314 20180517 12:24:54<+discordbot> If it isn't an impact/magic unit why would it have to have good matchups agaisnt Skeletons/Ghosts anyhow? 20180517 12:25:22< hk238> just gameplaywise it would mean you can't recruit it considering undead at all 20180517 12:25:37< hk238> if it has 10 cold then it's not completely losing choice 20180517 12:25:47<+discordbot> a lot of things are like that in game already 20180517 12:25:58< hk238> example? 20180517 12:26:00<+discordbot> if you make an army mostly out of spearmen while fighting elves you got another thing common 20180517 12:26:01<+discordbot> tale old as time 20180517 12:26:21<+discordbot> First time players losing their spearman army to a horde of woses. 20180517 12:26:39<+discordbot> there actually isn't really that much incentive to make spearmen when fighting Rebels 20180517 12:26:43< hk238> spearman isn't completely losing against elves though 20180517 12:26:51< hk238> you recruit spearman + mage and you're doing well 20180517 12:27:09<+discordbot> yeah but spearmen will always lose to woses 20180517 12:27:15<+discordbot> not every matchup has to be fair 20180517 12:27:28< hk238> true but they're not a losing choice, they're still usable on daytime against everything except woses 20180517 12:27:36< hk238> and they're cheaper than woses 20180517 12:27:41< hk238> and you have to have something to cover the mages 20180517 12:28:03< hk238> where as if you'd have this unit with -10 cold and blade and expensive like 20 gold 20180517 12:28:08<+discordbot> yes but the elf may well make his army centered around woses if he knwos you have a lot of spearmen 20180517 12:28:09< hk238> and no ranged attack 20180517 12:28:34< hk238> you'd have problems with ghosts both melee and ranged attack, DAs cold attack, skeletons melee attack, you'd have problems with ghoul due to cost hp ratio, and even walking dead 20180517 12:28:38< hk238> it's not just woses 20180517 12:29:04<+discordbot> Woses also struggle against DAs, I don't see the issue 20180517 12:29:08< hk238> you can play against woses with spearmen since you just use them to cover mages 20180517 12:29:22< hk238> what's more problematic if bowmen if you make lots of bowmen even having mages wont help with that 20180517 12:29:30< hk238> but it's still not a losing unit 20180517 12:29:39< hk238> you can have it as a defender 20180517 12:29:45<+discordbot> yes 20180517 12:29:55<+discordbot> -10cold doesn't make it impossible to defend against DAs 20180517 12:30:01<+discordbot> or ghosts 20180517 12:30:19< hk238> well let's not argue 20180517 12:30:29< hk238> I just think for this reason it would be a good idea to make cold 10 instead of -10 20180517 12:30:40< hk238> we can disagree on whether it actually is true. So far it's all on paper anyway 20180517 12:31:26-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 12:31:32<+discordbot> btw this lineup, what will they use against undead? 20180517 12:31:36<+discordbot> considering no woses/human mages 20180517 12:31:54< hk238> there's an elven mage and other than that it's still open 20180517 12:32:00< hk238> having lots of units with blade attack would be a problem 20180517 12:32:34<+discordbot> No druids/fighters? 20180517 12:32:49< hk238> no druids or fighters nope but the units are still on the drawing board :D 20180517 12:32:59< hk238> it's undecided.. if you have any suggestions 20180517 12:33:11< hk238> by the way here's what wikipedia says about spearmen and rebels 20180517 12:33:19< hk238> I mean wesnoth wiki: ' Spearman - A - A necessity. To defend at night, to kill pretty much anything except for Woses, and to be cheap and cost only 14 gold. These guys pretty much tear though most of the Rebel units, if it were not only for the high-defense Archer and Shaman. Get a bunch, and move them like a wall against the enemy units. ' 20180517 12:33:35< hk238> it grades spearman as "A" and calls it a necessity. That's pretty far from a losing unit. :D 20180517 12:34:26<+discordbot> Would you want the elven mage to be more of a support-style unit or more of an aggresive option? 20180517 12:34:43<+discordbot> How many spearmen do you build when fighting undead? 20180517 12:34:52< hk238> I was so far thinking about it being somewhat similar to regular mage, but perhaps an arcane ranged instead 20180517 12:35:06<+discordbot> I rarely see more than 2 spearmen in a loyalist/undead fight 20180517 12:35:25<+discordbot> isn't the regular mage arcane ranged? 20180517 12:35:30<+discordbot> no regular is fire 20180517 12:35:34< hk238> it's fire as far as I remember : ) 20180517 12:35:34<+discordbot> ah 20180517 12:35:59< hk238> I agree that spearmen probably don't do so well against undead 20180517 12:36:00<+discordbot> meaning human mages are kind of terrible against drakes 20180517 12:36:34<+discordbot> when fighting undead you only use them for a bit of padding and to counter their counterplays to your HI in my experience 20180517 12:37:00< hk238> yeah you're right mages are not useful against drakes 20180517 12:37:01<+discordbot> Either way elves without shamans will probably feel wildly different from normal elf playing 20180517 12:37:14<+discordbot> so if that's what you are going for, great 20180517 12:37:25< hk238> yeah it's supposed to be a different faction and too similar.. : ) 20180517 12:37:37< hk238> *not too 20180517 12:37:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 12:39:06<+discordbot> Mhm, havin a warmage that could have arcane ranged attack and a (more defensive) touch-effect with slow and little damage could be cool 20180517 12:39:53<+discordbot> No more focusing hard on getting those Sorceresses I guess. 20180517 12:40:52<+discordbot> Something like "Binding touch - 1x5 - Arcane - Applies Slow" 20180517 12:41:20< hk238> That's too much :o 20180517 12:41:26<+discordbot> Why does Elf [name]: Unit with chainmail two short swords, resistance to blade, vulnerability to pierce. Parry. Have resistance to blade if the Knight already fulfills that role? Just wondering. 20180517 12:41:31<+discordbot> or is it the other way round? 20180517 12:41:42<+discordbot> I want itto have 5 damage and one hit 20180517 12:41:44<+discordbot> 1x5 means really low chance it will work 20180517 12:41:47<+discordbot> not one damage and five hits 20180517 12:42:03<+discordbot> think of thunderers and how often some people groan as they miss 20180517 12:42:07<+discordbot> now think of just that to apply slow 20180517 12:42:16< hk238> oh well that's much better then, but slow might still be too much 20180517 12:42:29<+discordbot> It's more of a defensive option for when they are attacked in melee 20180517 12:42:40< hk238> which makes it very useful 20180517 12:42:52<+discordbot> Yeah it is normally put as "damage x hits" 20180517 12:42:57< hk238> perhaps if we drop the ranged attack 20180517 12:43:00< hk238> : D 20180517 12:43:06<+discordbot> I mean 20180517 12:43:50<+discordbot> yeah I guess 5x1 is a bit much considering normal mages get 5x1 without slow and shamans 3x2 without slow 20180517 12:43:56<+discordbot> maybe 3x1 with slow? 20180517 12:44:23<+discordbot> Or even 1x1 with slow. The damage is not really the deciding thing here 20180517 12:44:26<+discordbot> Why does the elvish fighter unit in this proposal have blade resistance, when the knight already fill this role? Just wondering. 20180517 12:44:32< hk238> so far no slow 20180517 12:44:48< hk238> It's still open I haven't worked it out yet 20180517 12:45:00<+discordbot> Do you want blade resistance to be a core feature of this line-up? 20180517 12:45:29< hk238> to some extent if there are two units with blade resistance it's quite defining already 20180517 12:45:51<+discordbot> not just two, but the two frontline-units 20180517 12:46:10< hk238> it's unclear that the other unit is exactly front line 20180517 12:46:35< hk238> I'm trying to keep this complex if possible 20180517 12:47:06<+discordbot> I've seen Heavy Infantry or Wose front lines, so if pierce resistance becomes very important... 20180517 12:47:43<+discordbot> Otherwise I don't really see what niche they fill, other than pierce resistance. Are they a good opener? 20180517 12:48:06< hk238> which units? 20180517 12:48:17<+discordbot> The knight. 20180517 12:48:48< hk238> if they have both blade and pierce resistance and that parry ability they're pretty useful, it sort of results to drake kind of gameplay, you can think of clasher as being a little similar 20180517 12:49:01< hk238> also requires cost to be pretty high, which is similar 20180517 12:49:28< hk238> I'm more worried that it would be too useful with the currently discussed qualities 20180517 12:49:37<+discordbot> So they have high speed then? 20180517 12:49:57< hk238> I'm not decided yet but 4 or 5 movement points seem like the reasonable candidates 20180517 12:50:04<+discordbot> Clashers are in notable part defined by their spear 20180517 12:50:21<+discordbot> I just fear having two sword units with only the difference of piercing resistance makes them too similar 20180517 12:50:52< hk238> that's a possibility in fact it looks like there might be 3 units with a blade attack which seems too much 20180517 12:50:57<+discordbot> Unless one of them is a very good opener(considering you already have a good finisher in your mage) 20180517 12:50:58< hk238> I'm not sure what to do about it 20180517 12:51:02<+discordbot> #Halberdsforknights 20180517 12:51:13< hk238> I'm not going for the halberd option for now 20180517 12:51:15<+discordbot> thief already has a niche 20180517 12:51:27<+discordbot> being less good at frontal and engagement and having some use in strategic deployment 20180517 12:51:47<+discordbot> in that way you could also count scout as a "blade unit" 20180517 12:53:20< hk238> piercing vulnerability for one makes it very hard to use against loyalists and rebels, but better against orcs and undead 20180517 12:53:29<+discordbot> but consider Knalgans have Thiefs, Fighters, Ulfserkers (even Gryphons if you want to count them) but they all have wildly different roles. 20180517 12:53:51< hk238> hmm yeah perhaps it's not such a problem 20180517 12:54:13<+discordbot> it mainly depends on how the Knight and the warrior unit differ 20180517 12:54:34<+discordbot> Ulfserkers are madly specialised but the best finisher in the entire game. 20180517 12:54:41< hk238> I have not worked it out yet, but resistances and cost 20180517 12:55:37<+discordbot> Dwarves are actually the best example of what I mean by "opener" and "finisher" considering Thunderguards are specialised into mostly being useful as openers, and Ulfserkers are specialised into only being useful as finishers. 20180517 12:55:59< hk238> that's not exactly correct 20180517 12:56:02<+discordbot> While Fighters/Stalwarts fulfill more mainstay roles. 20180517 12:56:03<+discordbot> How so? 20180517 12:56:31<+discordbot> Ulfs can be useful in knocking off a ton of health on a high level mage as well, I guess. 20180517 12:56:32< hk238> 'finisher' refers to a unit that prefers to be the 2nd or 3rd attacker in that it can expect to gain attacker advantage by the target unit perishing and not retaliating 20180517 12:56:54< hk238> thunderguards naturally have this advantage since they only attack once 20180517 12:56:59< hk238> which makes them more of a finishing unit 20180517 12:57:00<+discordbot> In that scenario you just pick whoever you want to level 20180517 12:57:23<+discordbot> It is best to use thunderguards early in the turn because you have to adapt around them 20180517 12:57:28<+discordbot> as they are wildly unreliable 20180517 12:57:28< hk238> but of course zerkers are most efficient 20180517 12:57:31<+discordbot> in my experience 20180517 12:57:47< hk238> yeah you could be right about that depending on circumstances 20180517 12:57:58< hk238> they're volatile which works both ways 20180517 12:57:59<+discordbot> ulfserker isn't always a great finisher, granted 20180517 12:58:07< hk238> I wasn't arguing about that point 20180517 12:58:14<+discordbot> more of a gaurantee and greatly useful against non melee units 20180517 12:59:02< hk238> you can even use zerkers as an opener since it frees up a hex if the zerker loses 20180517 12:59:18< hk238> then finish the damaged unit with something else and you will have a unit with experience 20180517 12:59:29<+discordbot> I find that a really poor way to use an unit unless it is used against a commander or something 20180517 12:59:32<+discordbot> ulfs ain't cheap 20180517 12:59:35< hk238> they're most hex-effective units and part of that is they can't fail without freeing the hex 20180517 12:59:48< hk238> yes but you pay the difference in gold for experience for your unit 20180517 13:00:00< hk238> which is potentially better than having a zerker with experience, since they're easy to pick on 20180517 13:00:12<+discordbot> like, this is great if you want to just nuke an enemy commander in one turn 20180517 13:00:32<+discordbot> but otherwise it is almost always a waste of the 19 gold+interest you paid to bring the ulf to bear 20180517 13:01:20< hk238> having experience is very valuable since when you level up it not only gives you a new replacement unit, but also heals the unit 20180517 13:01:49< hk238> so if your opponent loses a 15 gold unit, you lose a 19gold unit, but you end up with a thief that has 8 experience, for an example that is, it's probably a winning trade 20180517 13:02:34<+discordbot> highly situational 20180517 13:02:57< hk238> in general having experienced units is winning 20180517 13:03:12< hk238> it's not that situational.. :o 20180517 13:03:21<+discordbot> in general you shouldn't waste 19gold whne it could be avoided 20180517 13:03:36< hk238> that's true 20180517 13:03:38<+discordbot> misusing ulfs is one of the most ocmmon ways dwarf players lose 20180517 13:03:49< hk238> but it can be that finishing with zerker is wrong order 20180517 13:03:51<+discordbot> or at least, new ones 20180517 13:03:57< hk238> because you end up with a zerker that has 8xp and 10hp 20180517 13:04:06< hk238> then opponent picks it out and gets a free check of 8xp 20180517 13:04:10< hk238> where as if you do it the other way around 20180517 13:04:23< hk238> opponent loses the unit that defeats the zerker, and you get a unit that's close to full health and 8xp, which is hard to pick on 20180517 13:04:28<+discordbot> fighters are often more deadly than zerkers when fighting against enemy meel units anyhow 20180517 13:05:15<+discordbot> Killing your zerker because "the enemy will get it dead anyway" is not a position you would ever want to be in. 20180517 13:05:36< hk238> I just explained why it can be a good idea 20180517 13:05:44< hk238> you have two outcomes and one of them is better than the other 20180517 13:05:58<+discordbot> yes but that isn't a situation you would want to find yourself in to begin with 20180517 13:06:02<+discordbot> it is not the reason you make the zerker 20180517 13:06:05<+discordbot> it is the reason you cill him, sure 20180517 13:06:21< hk238> it definitely is the very reason you make the zerker :D 20180517 13:06:24<+discordbot> but you don't recruit him to see him waste his life on a unit you will kill so the enemy can't get xp on killing him 20180517 13:06:31< hk238> the unit is the hex-efficient it can't fail that way 20180517 13:06:34<+discordbot> at that point just make a fighter 20180517 13:06:54<+discordbot> being hex efficient only realyl matters enough to waste zerkers if you can kill a commander or a really high level enemy 20180517 13:07:01< hk238> no if you make a fighter, fail to capture a village, fail to defeat the enemy unit, end up with the fighter blocking the only one of your two attack hexes 20180517 13:07:17< hk238> you're wrong about this 20180517 13:07:28<+discordbot> Why are you playing Dwarves with such a high focus on agression? 20180517 13:07:30< hk238> zerker is expensive, true, but you've to consider the entire trade 20180517 13:07:50<+discordbot> That you'd just throw away zerkers to deal a little bit more damage in a turn 20180517 13:07:54< hk238> if your opponent also loses a unit, it's not a problem 20180517 13:08:05<+discordbot> Yes it is, because it is generally inefficient. 20180517 13:08:06< hk238> especially if you end up with a unit that has extra experienec and almost fullhealth 20180517 13:08:11< hk238> like check the calculation 20180517 13:08:30< hk238> if you have a 20% chance to defeat the unit with the zerker, it might still be a good idea, since then you get the xp on another unit 20180517 13:08:55< hk238> and it might also be that the zerker survivign is not the ideal outcome.. you have to retreat him back to a village, guard it against opponent units 20180517 13:08:56<+discordbot> If the enemy spends 4 turns healing his wound he wastes 4 turns of that unit + 4 gold, it is not "as good" as killing him, but I wouldn't waste a zerker to kill any unit that it would die to kill, unless it is a very big threat or vital to the enemy. 20180517 13:09:18< hk238> so you might even hope that the zerker fails so you get the better option 20180517 13:09:30<+discordbot> why would you ever hope that a 19 gold unit dies 20180517 13:09:33<+discordbot> it's beyond me 20180517 13:09:36< hk238> I just explained 20180517 13:09:59< hk238> try it sometime 20180517 13:10:03< hk238> and it doesn't have to be on a skeleton :D 20180517 13:10:14-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@ppp91-122-147-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 13:10:16< hk238> make sure you can get the xp on another unit 20180517 13:10:18<+discordbot> you have to guard your villages against opponent units anyhow and if the enemy goes behind your lines just to kill a zerker they will surely waste the unit they use for it 20180517 13:10:24<+discordbot> which is always beneficial to you 20180517 13:13:58-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180517 13:20:28<+discordbot> btw my favourite feature in the game is how when a Zerker attacks a Dark Adept they just stare at the screen and laugh. 20180517 13:22:31<+discordbot> You could make the elvish warrior thing a better forest/mountain unit and the knight a better open field unit 🤔 20180517 13:25:55-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 13:41:32< hk238> :o 20180517 13:41:57< hk238> sorry maybe this conversation got a bit too much of an argumentative tone 20180517 13:42:18-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@ppp91-122-147-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit: Soo_Slow] 20180517 13:43:28<+discordbot> I quite like arguments tbph 20180517 14:09:24< hk238> as long as it's not too intense I guess it can be okay :D 20180517 14:18:53<+discordbot> Mhm, I think I have found geographically where I will set my campaign. (Basically around the zones where an orcish incursion plays out) 20180517 14:19:02<+discordbot> Now to find a suitbale time-frame 20180517 14:32:35< hk238> What kind of campaign are you making, Elegias? 20180517 14:33:27<+discordbot> I've posted the outline here: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=48171 20180517 14:34:03<+discordbot> For the moment im planning to do scenarios 4 through 6 as a mni-campaign to learn the WML etc. 20180517 14:34:48<+discordbot> And have the Dialogue more or less worked out and the first of the scenarios working (even though not nearly as refined as I would like) 20180517 14:35:43< hk238> oh it's looking good I think 20180517 14:37:28<+discordbot> That's basically the part of the map I want to use. 20180517 14:37:38<+discordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/446682706282151936/aoi.png 20180517 14:37:54<+discordbot> (taken from the orcish incursion) 20180517 14:41:14< hk238> I think you can make it, creating maps and scenarios takes time I guess, but not as much as dialogue I think 20180517 14:43:00<+discordbot> I hope. Although I'm struggling with the scenario-stuff, learning by doing essentially 20180517 14:44:02< hk238> I have not been doing scenarios so I don't know much about that :o 20180517 14:44:20<+discordbot> pretty sure artwork is the most work even if when you know how to do it 20180517 14:45:07<+discordbot> That seems right. Haven't even started thinking about that. I hope I can use things already in the game for now 20180517 14:45:59<+discordbot> a lot of things already have artwork, yes 20180517 14:50:46< hk238> I agree nyvrem but campaign by default doesn't require artwork, though it would be nice to have a portrait for each character 20180517 14:51:16<+discordbot> Well, cribbing portraits from the mainline-campaign will probably ork out for a while. 20180517 14:51:29< hk238> I'd probably start by using the default unit portraits, then probably try modifying the default unit portraits a bit 20180517 14:51:58< hk238> like starting with the units type's portrait then changing the face or something. I mean if you want to avoid making completely new portraits 20180517 14:52:58<+discordbot> My idea is using the defauls stuff for everything but the 6 main cast-members and then just using the best fitting portrait I can find for each of them in the mainline stuff 20180517 14:53:42<+discordbot> that is generally the approach 20180517 14:53:54<+discordbot> but making character art can take like a day's work 20180517 14:56:54<+discordbot> tbph one of my favourite missions out of all campaigns was probably the one where you had to kill a 100 outlaws and the such with 4 silver mages 20180517 14:57:05<+discordbot> Well, making art is something I didn't even consider. Im terribad at everything with art.^^ 20180517 14:58:03< hk238> as long as the main characters are of a different unit type it's not much of a problem, but if you have like two spearmen talking in dialogue and both have the same picture.. :o 20180517 14:59:42<+discordbot> Even funnier fact: because silver mages have bigger fire resistance, in a silver mage vs arch mage battle the silver mage is slightly more likely to win 20180517 15:00:03<+discordbot> Yeah. For one of the orcish characters, I will probably take one of the portraits of the Son of the Black Eye campaign 20180517 15:00:11<+discordbot> although traits can shift this balance 20180517 15:00:19<+discordbot> since the difference is very small 20180517 15:00:24<+discordbot> The other is in the leader/warlord-line, so he is unique anyways 20180517 15:00:39-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] 20180517 15:01:25<+discordbot> could always use the javelineer portrait for one of the spearmen(or make it an actual javelineer/pikeman/etc) 20180517 15:24:48-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 15:26:13<+discordbot> I must say I really like the new Sylph sprite. 20180517 16:18:45<+discordbot> same 20180517 16:33:22<+discordbot> Surnames are not a thing in wesnoth, right? 20180517 16:33:29<+discordbot> Just a name and maybe a title? 20180517 16:37:26<+discordbot> yeah, theyre not 20180517 16:37:38<+discordbot> some charactrs do have surnames tho 20180517 16:37:41<+discordbot> Malin Keshar is one 20180517 16:38:05<+discordbot> and also his sister 20180517 16:38:12<+discordbot> (Dela i think is her name) 20180517 16:38:31<+discordbot> from what i remember i think hes the only mainline character with a surname 20180517 16:43:30<+discordbot> Well, then I will not use surnames to maintain continuity 20180517 16:44:04<+discordbot> Also, Wesnoth seems to use Pseudo-German names a fair bit, so I'll take that. 20180517 16:53:18<+discordbot> you can still have surnames imo 20180517 16:53:29<+discordbot> my campaign idea that im working on will have surnames 20180517 17:01:50<+discordbot> Mhm, we'll see. But it doesn#t matter to me and I prefer it to be like the other campaigns where possible 😃 20180517 17:10:15-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 17:25:55-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 17:26:34-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 17:31:32-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180517 17:59:05-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 17:59:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 18:45:46-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:fdda:845:3d5f:65d4] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 18:46:45< hk238> I thought about this faction some more.. what do you think about an elf thief unit with a short sword, 5-2 blade backstab and 3-1 "pummel" 20180517 18:47:09< hk238> where I was envisioning the 3-1 attack to slow the target (stun) but being risky due to chance to miss 20180517 18:47:29< hk238> but with the condition that there has to be an enemy unit on the opposite side of the target for the slow to work 20180517 18:47:35< hk238> as backstab condition 20180517 18:48:12< hk238> hmm this faction desperately needs a non-blade unit now 20180517 18:51:17-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 18:54:20< hk238> decided to change it to short sword 5-2 backstab and small mace 6-1 pummel 20180517 19:00:54-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6A14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 19:15:24-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180517 19:16:31-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 19:45:26-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180517 19:58:05-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has quit [Quit: Caught sigterm, terminating...] 20180517 19:58:29-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FB6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 19:58:41-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@p579FB6E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180517 19:58:41-!- Ivanovic [~ivanovic@wesnoth/developer/ivanovic] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 20:27:24-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:fdda:845:3d5f:65d4] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180517 20:42:58-!- f-a [~f-a@151.48.29.23] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 20:43:31< f-a> Checking for C library libcrypto... (cached) no <-- what do I have to install on debian stable? 20180517 20:53:43< galegosimpatico> Possibly `libssl-dev`? 20180517 20:56:32< f-a> thanks galegosimpatico . I also have problem with boost random 20180517 20:56:33< f-a> apt-get install libboost-random1.62-dev 20180517 20:56:37< f-a> but 20180517 20:56:57< f-a> Checking for Boost random library version >= 1.50.0... (cached) no 20180517 20:57:54-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 20:58:47< f-a> (building with scons) I wonder if there is a way (env. var) to point scons to the right path? 20180517 20:59:26<+discordbot> Try scons --config=force if you already have the deps. 20180517 20:59:52<+discordbot> Its config test result caching is a little bit too aggressive and sometimes it doesn't recheck after the environment set-up changes. 20180517 21:15:31-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180517 21:47:04-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has joined #wesnoth 20180517 22:43:22-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.176.171.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 22:46:25-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180517 22:58:36-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180517 23:42:20-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180517 23:52:03-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180517 23:55:02-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth --- Log closed Fri May 18 00:00:26 2018