--- Log opened Fri May 25 00:00:08 2018 20180525 00:05:29-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 00:05:35-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 00:05:35-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180525 00:12:16-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6B21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20180525 00:23:10-!- allefant is now known as elias 20180525 00:37:16<+discordbot1> @SsIraS yeah that looks better now mate 20180525 00:37:29<+discordbot1> problem is we need to have the maintainer update that way 20180525 00:38:05<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/449370521482559488/unknown.png 20180525 00:38:47<+discordbot1> The Rod summons lightning damage, but its damage accuracy is normal type 20180525 00:38:53<+discordbot1> so I think maybe its a bug 20180525 00:38:59< celticminstrel> What rod are we talking about 20180525 00:39:11<+discordbot1> Rod of Justice, in NR 20180525 00:39:22<+discordbot1> it has no magic's 70% accuracy 20180525 00:39:23< celticminstrel> Oh spoilers huh. 20180525 00:39:25<+discordbot1> not a bug according to my fix 20180525 00:39:37<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/449370913096335360/unknown.png 20180525 00:39:41< celticminstrel> Does the storm trident have magical? 20180525 00:39:43<+discordbot1> the weapon special want there 20180525 00:39:45<+discordbot1> wasnt 20180525 00:39:49< celticminstrel> If not, there's no reason for the rod to have it. 20180525 00:40:19<+discordbot1> storm trident have magical 20180525 00:40:43< celticminstrel> Hmm, okay. 20180525 00:40:44<+discordbot1> actually, how many tridents you guys got from HTTT? 20180525 00:40:59<+discordbot1> I lirerally picked up all of them and mauled the fucking nagas 20180525 00:41:04<+discordbot1> 😂 20180525 00:41:19< celticminstrel> How many are there? I haven't player HTTT since 1.10. 20180525 00:41:31< celticminstrel> Actually the only campaign I've played since 1.10 is SotBE and I never finished that. 20180525 00:41:43< celticminstrel> (Well, and my own campaign.) 20180525 00:42:19<+discordbot1> I think 4 20180525 00:42:30<+discordbot1> 3 in the first merman mission 20180525 00:42:34< aeth> HttT is so easy, the shaman-only challenge is definitely viable last I tried it. I actually got too bored to finish it a few scenarios away from the end. 20180525 00:42:40<+discordbot1> 1 additional in one of the hidden lines 20180525 00:42:50< aeth> (iirc it's recruit only elvish shamans. you can cover them with loyal units) 20180525 00:42:55<+discordbot1> shaman only is doable, its actualy OP somehow 20180525 00:43:16<+discordbot1> caz once you ranked up a few 20180525 00:43:23< aeth> it's because you get enough free units to cover your units and the later levels of the shamans are both good, and you get to the later levels faster when you focus on them 20180525 00:43:52<+discordbot1> theres actually some scenario perfectly well you go shaman builds tho 20180525 00:43:58< aeth> but I suspect if you didn't do any save/loading at all you could probably collapse into a disequilibrium 10 hours in or however long the campaign is once you start losing stuff 20180525 00:44:09< aeth> the only hard part of the shaman challenge is the cave part 20180525 00:44:16< aeth> elves are terrible in caves so it slows you down a lot 20180525 00:44:21<+discordbot1> yeah shaman sux in caves 20180525 00:44:22< aeth> I think you get 3-4 loyal dwarves, though, which is plenty 20180525 00:44:36<+discordbot1> not the dodge rate causing problem, but you move slow af 20180525 00:44:48<+discordbot1> 1-2 hexes each turn 20180525 00:44:52<+discordbot1> its grinding you 20180525 00:44:55< aeth> yeah 20180525 00:45:05< celticminstrel> That might be sorta interesting to try, huh... 20180525 00:45:12< celticminstrel> Though I think I'd want an archer or two too. 20180525 00:45:14< aeth> I think one of them (the random one) doesn't even have a turn limit so it's not about losing it's about patience 20180525 00:45:29< aeth> celticminstrel: the thing is, you get a ton of free loyal units along the campaign 20180525 00:45:39<+discordbot1> you gonna push with shaman/enchantress combo as if moving a very slow heavy tank to front line 20180525 00:45:41< celticminstrel> Are any of them elvish archers though? 20180525 00:45:45< aeth> So if you interpret the challenge as only recruiting shamans, you can have a diversity of units if you don't lose any of the non-shamans 20180525 00:45:59< aeth> I don't think there are any elvish archers. You start with elves so you don't really get free elves afaik 20180525 00:46:08< celticminstrel> Anyway, speaking of the caves, they all use cave rather than flat, right? Wouldn't be better to change them to use more flat? 20180525 00:46:09<+discordbot1> btw, your all shaman challenge 20180525 00:46:19< aeth> You get pretty much one or more free units of everything friendly you encounter after the elves. 20180525 00:46:22< aeth> Which is a ton 20180525 00:46:23<+discordbot1> may I ask you mean you recruit shamans only every single scenario 20180525 00:46:35<+discordbot1> or you mean you can recall LV2/3 shamans? 20180525 00:46:46< aeth> The way I interpreted the challenge when I did it is: you can only recruit shamans. You can recall anything. So loyal free units are okay 20180525 00:47:04<+discordbot1> okay that sounds fair 20180525 00:47:09< aeth> I wouldn't be surprised if some HttT paths have 20 free units 20180525 00:47:14< aeth> So it's not too limiting 20180525 00:47:15<+discordbot1> it isnt really hard as it sound I think 20180525 00:47:21< celticminstrel> Gryphons 20180525 00:47:26< aeth> Well except if you lose a free unit you can't replace it 20180525 00:47:29<+discordbot1> HTTT has massive amount of free units 20180525 00:47:32< aeth> And the caves are pretty tough 20180525 00:47:48<+discordbot1> the loyal unit count in HTTT is imba 20180525 00:47:53< celticminstrel> No-one cares about the idea of putting more flat in the caves, huh. 20180525 00:47:58< aeth> If you did no save/loading it'd probably be a fairly hard challenge unless you blocked with lots of expendable shamans 20180525 00:48:14< aeth> celticminstrel: When I make caves they're more flat than cave. Especially dirt and cave path 20180525 00:48:28< aeth> I basically put the caves on the edges, for defensive bonuses for the units that are decent in caves. 20180525 00:48:37< celticminstrel> My two caves in BCoA are a mix of dirt, cave, and a little mud. 20180525 00:48:38< aeth> That way movement isn't obstructed, which is annoying. 20180525 00:48:46< aeth> HttT is really old, though, so it takes a really old theory of map design. 20180525 00:48:53<+discordbot1> none of the any other campaigns have such amount of the loyals than httt 20180525 00:48:53< celticminstrel> I might've used some cave path too, can't remember. 20180525 00:49:10<+discordbot1> httt sux for newbs, also sux for old players 20180525 00:49:11< aeth> Well, HttT is a very long campaign. 20180525 00:49:13<+discordbot1> its just classic 20180525 00:49:14< aeth> It's kind of a grind. 20180525 00:49:21< celticminstrel> IIRC I did keep the abyss scenario almost entirely cave, though. 20180525 00:49:28<+discordbot1> no...difficulty wise httt is short 20180525 00:49:35< celticminstrel> But then, most of that map is actually irrelevant to the goal. 20180525 00:49:44< aeth> It's too easy if you know what you're doing because you can just pile up a ton of recalls, but it's too long for newbies because if you mess up it'll ruin your chances the rest of the campaign. 20180525 00:49:48< aeth> It's just... too long. 20180525 00:49:56< celticminstrel> (That is, at least half the map will be basically unused.) 20180525 00:49:58<+discordbot1> it wont take you much time to beat it whole 20180525 00:50:32< celticminstrel> (At most you might want to send out a dwarf/flier to scout the rest of the map and grab all the goodies.) 20180525 00:50:40< aeth> I think I've gotten 1/2, 2/3, 2/3, and probably about 9/10 or so through but it's jsut hard to finish HttT. 20180525 00:50:44< aeth> Too long. 20180525 00:51:07< aeth> Long campaigns only really work in games where you start fresh each time imo. Or maybe at least have some fresh restart points along the way 20180525 00:51:54< aeth> It would be interesting if you could in settings adjust certain things with a campaign like you can with MP scenarios. e.g. HttT might be more fun for veterans if the XP scaling was like 200% just like MP is 70% 20180525 00:52:09< celticminstrel> You can do that IIRC 20180525 00:52:17< celticminstrel> With custom options 20180525 00:52:27< aeth> It's something you can personally do and not the campaign author? Interesting. 20180525 00:52:32< celticminstrel> I guess maybe you can't do XP scaling specifically in that way. 20180525 00:52:38< celticminstrel> No, no, the campaign author. 20180525 00:52:53< aeth> Definitely would be a nice to have feature for people. Perhaps lock it so you can only make it harder than the campaign author intended, not easier. 20180525 00:53:05< celticminstrel> The campaign author can define options that the player can tweak. 20180525 00:53:11< aeth> That's probably one of the reasons why I prefer scenarios to campaigns. The settings thing before. 20180525 00:53:11< celticminstrel> Same as custom MP options. 20180525 00:53:27<+discordbot1> did you guys figure out any legit build in the horselord challenge scenario to kill less than 50 units for the win? 20180525 00:53:28< celticminstrel> But I don't know any way to change the built-in options for a campaign (things like XP scaling). 20180525 00:53:44<+discordbot1> I found that shit particularly difficulty on hardest difficulty 20180525 00:54:08<+discordbot1> maybe set the limit to 75 is better 20180525 00:54:45<+discordbot1> You just have to use elf t3 horse and sacirfise a massive amount of grys to assasinate the horselords 20180525 00:54:56<+discordbot1> very professionally 20180525 00:55:14< celticminstrel> "assassinate" 20180525 00:55:16<+discordbot1> you move the horse all time in villages to lame your enemy 20180525 00:55:19<+discordbot1> but not to kill them 20180525 00:55:22< celticminstrel> Well I mean it's more like "beat in a duel" 20180525 00:55:25<+discordbot1> its fucking stupid design 20180525 00:55:56<+discordbot1> what I did is I bought some dwarf shielder 20180525 00:56:03<+discordbot1> throw them onto hills 20180525 00:56:05< aeth> maybe one day the AI will play like a human, shielding its weaker glass cannon units behind ZoC, going for good defensive terrain, not being suicidal, retreating in unfavorable ToD, knowing the resistances/weaknesses, etc. 20180525 00:56:08<+discordbot1> and rush for the north 20180525 00:56:38<+discordbot1> matt's AI already do that, but someone else told us its cancelled some versions earlier 20180525 00:56:53<+discordbot1> because AIs performance becomes weird in some scenarios 20180525 00:57:23< aeth> Oh, and by suicidal AI I mean attacking the mountains from water or flat or something. A human would probably only attack those mountains if it had some unit capable of taking it out (like mages) and was able to cover those units within the same turn. 20180525 00:57:34< aeth> (Assuming the RNG cooperates.) 20180525 00:57:56< aeth> Using that AI would probably slow down the game, though. 20180525 00:58:47< aeth> Of course, this is assuming standard MP reasoning. A human in the situation of the AI would play even more defensively since they'd auto-win if they can just stall for enough time. 20180525 00:58:53< aeth> (Turn limits.) 20180525 00:59:09< celticminstrel> By "matt's AI" do you mean Fred? 20180525 00:59:35<+discordbot1> I think the suicidal action, thats defined by AI's aggression, right? 20180525 00:59:47<+discordbot1> some scenario's AI are more prudent tho 20180525 00:59:48< celticminstrel> Quite possibly. 20180525 00:59:59<+discordbot1> but some else are idiots 20180525 01:00:00< aeth> Even without an aggression adjustment, the AI is just suicidal in general. 20180525 01:00:02< celticminstrel> I think a lot of scenarios boost AI aggression, too. 20180525 01:00:13<+discordbot1> yeah thats the main problem 20180525 01:00:29< aeth> As I said, a human would use designated offensive units (like mages) to spearhead an assault and only do so if it could cover those units with defensive units in the most likely scenario of clearing the way. 20180525 01:00:38<+discordbot1> no, scenarios without aggression adjustment AI generally dont attack mountainous/castle from waters 20180525 01:00:42< aeth> You don't expose your mages on flat unless you break through. 20180525 01:01:14< aeth> The AI doesn't really seem to have the knowledge of terrain and ToD that every player must learn to become an intermediate Wesnoth player. 20180525 01:01:22<+discordbot1> did anyone find mages generally have worse traits than adepts 20180525 01:01:26< aeth> Does the AI retreat at an unfavorable ToD matchup yet? 20180525 01:01:41<+discordbot1> what is ToD btw? 20180525 01:01:46< aeth> time of day 20180525 01:01:51<+discordbot1> ah okay 20180525 01:01:52<+discordbot1> no 20180525 01:01:53<+discordbot1> they dont 20180525 01:01:57< aeth> if you're undead and you're fighting loyalists, you fall back at day and attack at night 20180525 01:02:06< aeth> and during the day you're basically just holding defensive land with ghouls 20180525 01:02:13<+discordbot1> they always push to death, maybe reformation, but ignoring day/night time periods 20180525 01:03:13< celticminstrel> Uh, aeth. 20180525 01:03:13< aeth> I wonder how hard that would be to add. Essentially, find the ToD matchup, and if it is a ToD matchup (so not orcs vs undead or something similar) then during the unfavorable ToD, it just holds good terrain and tries to get a ZoC line 20180525 01:03:21< celticminstrel> The AI absolutely has knowledge of terrain. 20180525 01:03:26<+discordbot1> You can change the XP Modificator in HttT... if you start it as MP campaign 20180525 01:03:35< celticminstrel> What it doesn't have much knowledge of is advanced abilities like healing, leadership, etc. 20180525 01:03:46< celticminstrel> Backstab too. 20180525 01:04:05< aeth> celticminstrel: Afaik, the AI is so offensive, it doesn't really know terrain so much as individual combat matchups. So it'll attack from the most favorable combat matchup, but it will just randomly leave its units sitting on flat when it could advance one less hex and leave it on a hill. 20180525 01:04:09< celticminstrel> There is a retreat candidate action, but I think that's for retreating injured units, not for retreating due to ToD. 20180525 01:04:45< aeth> If I am close enough to the enemy, I'm going to advance less than I would normally do so my units end their turns on defensive terrain. I don't think the AI does this that well. 20180525 01:04:45< celticminstrel> aeth: Ah, interesting point. You're saying the move CA should also take terrain into account and make sure units end their turn on favourable terrain. 20180525 01:04:49< celticminstrel> mattsc ^ 20180525 01:05:39< Ravana_> not make sure, but consider that terrain if that unit can be attacked within turn 20180525 01:05:45< aeth> celticminstrel: Essentially, assuming the AI has perfect knowledge and cheats through fog/shroud, it should look for the terrain with the highest defensive score to leave its units on if it's near the enemy. (Probably not as elaborate as it could be because it wouldn't be taking into account flat next to water, which might be acceptable) 20180525 01:06:08< aeth> Especially during what it determines to be unfavorable ToD 20180525 01:06:35< celticminstrel> Ravana_: Sure. 20180525 01:06:42< aeth> If you have a concept of defensive score, you could eventually take into account neighboring hexes, and even flat that closes in a ZoC line 20180525 01:07:03< celticminstrel> Does the AI still cheat through fog? I think it does still cheat through shroud though because we don't have an explore CA yet. 20180525 01:07:42< aeth> I think it should cheat through fog for the concept of defensive score because it will not have the intuition of the possibility of an enemy unit being nearby vs. so far away that it should go for the movement over defense. 20180525 01:07:50< aeth> It just massively simplifies things. 20180525 01:08:48< celticminstrel> Well, if AI moves can be interrupted on sighting enemies similar to how player moves are, then it could be made to retreat to favourable ground once it sees the enemy. 20180525 01:09:17< aeth> But then it would have to do things like move scouts first, etc. 20180525 01:09:19< celticminstrel> FTR, the experimental AI is quite a bit better, apparently. 20180525 01:09:28< celticminstrel> In fact mattsc was planning to rename it. 20180525 01:09:37< celticminstrel> Yeah, I suppose maybe it would... 20180525 01:10:31< aeth> All I really want is (1) ending moves on defensive terrain (or closing the line of ZoC if there's like 3 flat between a bunch of hills) if it's near the enemy and (2) retreating in unfavorable ToD matchups (if the enemy is 90% lawful and you're 100% chaotic, do not attack during the day unless there's some really good opportunity, thus requiring a well-developed #1) 20180525 01:11:29< aeth> And as a corrolary to #1, when attacking, it will try to cover the exposed units if it successfully makes an attack. 20180525 01:11:57< aeth> So if three mages clear a mountain, it will prioritize extending the ZoC line to block the mages 20180525 01:12:50< celticminstrel> Maybe you should talk to mattsc. :P 20180525 01:13:13< celticminstrel> Meanwhile I really want an explore CA so the AI can work with shroud without ignoring it. 20180525 01:13:28< celticminstrel> Maybe coupled with an aspect to control the importance of unveiling shroud. 20180525 01:13:47< aeth> well, it's probably not possible under the current AI because it would think in terms of ZoC and in terms of shield units vs. breakthrough units. (Attack with the breakthrough units. If that's not enough, attack with some shield units. Once broken through, shield the breakthrough units by extending the ZoC line.) 20180525 01:14:11< celticminstrel> Pretty sure literally anything is possible with the current AI as long as you can figure out a way to code it. 20180525 01:14:20< celticminstrel> I mean, it might not be easy, but... 20180525 01:14:29< celticminstrel> It might be quite hard to make it efficient, too. 20180525 01:14:34< aeth> breakthrough units is a bit of a complicated concept because if you're e.g. orcs facing a mountain, you'd have to use orcish assassin poison and wait 20180525 01:14:57< aeth> it's an easy tatic when you have mages 20180525 01:15:02< aeth> s/tatic/tactic/ 20180525 01:16:13< aeth> I think Undead kind of have this most explicitly though. DA are breakthrough units. Ghouls are shield units. Skeletons can be either or neither, depending on the situation. 20180525 01:17:07< aeth> Although humans probably have an easy situation for AI because cavalrymen could be considered shield units who can close the ZoC lines on flat terrain, which otherwise would be bad for a shield unit 20180525 01:17:30< aeth> Not like this is the One True Way to play Wesnoth, but I think it's a way that can be expressed algorithmically, which is good for AI 20180525 01:17:42-!- gfgtdf [~gfgtdf@134.76.63.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180525 01:18:49< aeth> In a modern Wesnoth mod, breakthrough units would be tanks (which are closer to glass cannons and are not "tanks" in the RPG sense) and shield units would be the cheaper infantry that cover the vulnerable-defensively tanks once the tanks break through. 20180525 01:19:38< aeth> Or, in actual Wesnoth, that basically translates directly to horsemen and spearmen. 20180525 01:20:28< aeth> (More cavalry archers or cavalry mages than Wesnoth's charging horsemen, though.) 20180525 01:38:03-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 01:38:51< celticminstrel> Oh hi. 20180525 01:40:53< aeth> Essentially, I think the AI gets defense horribly wrong. When in possible range of the enemy, it should form a ZoC line, prefering defensive terrain unless it has to fill a gap. 20180525 01:41:12< mattsc> Hey - I saw you pinged me a couple times. 20180525 01:41:28< aeth> It should divide its units between shield units that can sit on this line and breakthrough units that should attack first and probably be back a bit 20180525 01:41:35< mattsc> I’m at a conference all day through Saturday. Can you give me the 25-word summary? 20180525 01:41:52< mattsc> I’ll read up on the details later, but can’t right now. 20180525 01:41:59< aeth> And it should strictly be in line defense mode in unfavorable ToD unless it has an extreme advantage 20180525 01:42:13< aeth> mattsc: That's a three line summary 20180525 01:42:52< celticminstrel> I think I like this for a summary: 20180525 01:42:53< celticminstrel> [May 24@9:10:31pm] aeth: All I really want is (1) ending moves on defensive terrain (or closing the line of ZoC if there's like 3 flat between a bunch of hills) if it's near the enemy and (2) retreating in unfavorable ToD matchups (if the enemy is 90% lawful and you're 100% chaotic, do not attack during the day unless there's some really good opportunity, thus requiring a well-developed #1) 20180525 01:43:06< mattsc> aeth: anything that’s spatial reasoning is really hard for an AI to do. So, offense is “easy”, defense is really difficult. 20180525 01:43:21< aeth> e.g. dark adepts are breakthrough units that attack first. ghouls are shield units that hold the terrain, attack last, and try to block DAs 20180525 01:44:35< mattsc> aeth: I really can’t do anything in the next “few” days. (more like weeks) But why don’t you go and take out Fred for a spin. 20180525 01:44:42< aeth> mattsc: Assign a score based on neighboring hexes. A mountain next to shallow water is high scoring. Then, if possible, add completing a line to that score. "shield" units prefer forward, "breakthrough" units prefer being behind 20180525 01:44:57< mattsc> … which is far from perfect and, in fact, overcompensates, but it’s an attempt at a different approach 20180525 01:45:20< aeth> (And when attacking it attacks with breakthrough first, in hopes that it breaks through and can shield them) 20180525 01:45:36< mattsc> aeth: I have been at this for 6 years. It’s either not that easy, or I am too stupid for it. 20180525 01:46:08< aeth> Oh I doubt it will be anywhere near as sophisticated in the final version 20180525 01:46:14< mattsc> As I said, go have a look at “Fred” (AI-demos) and see if this goes in the right direction. Only one Map, one side, one faction, but .... 20180525 01:46:14< aeth> This is just an ideal 20180525 01:48:04< aeth> I think even just ending turn on defensive terrain if in enemy range even if that means not maximally advancing is an improvement, although I don't know if you already have that 20180525 01:49:38< mattsc> aeth: Fred does way more than that ... 20180525 01:50:32< aeth> Is it possible to treat closing the ZoC line as part of a hex's defensive score? 20180525 01:51:01< mattsc> anything is possible, but that thing is really hard 20180525 01:51:18< mattsc> it seems so obvious to the human brain, and it’s not at all trivial for a computer 20180525 01:51:39< mattsc> That’s what all the machine leraning, pattern regocgnition hype for AI is about these days 20180525 01:51:53< aeth> Is it possible to detect which units are "forward" and prefer units like spearmen over units like mages for that? 20180525 01:52:53< aeth> I don't think that's *just* ML. One game I've played a lot of recently (Hearts of Iron 4) is essentially all combat line AI, even on the player's side 20180525 01:53:08< mattsc> Okay, I’m sorry, I really don’t mean to cut this off, but I do not have time for any sort of discussion here right now. (I probably should not have come online) 20180525 01:53:24< mattsc> Go try Fred and tell me what you think. 20180525 01:53:31< mattsc> Ot I am happy to talk to you more next week. 20180525 01:53:33< aeth> OK 20180525 01:53:35< mattsc> Sorry ... 20180525 01:53:54< aeth> I'll see how close it is 20180525 01:54:48< mattsc> It has lots of problems (so take it as very much WIP), but I’d be interest to see if it goes in the direction you are thinking about. 20180525 01:55:55< aeth> My ideal is basically an AI that defends in unfavorable ToD instead of attacking and an AI that can distinguish between how to play a mage vs. how to play a spearman 20180525 01:56:32< mattsc> Well, Fred does that. Whether he does it to the extent you would like is a different question. 20180525 01:56:36< aeth> (mages are ideally always behind spearmen with the exception that they attack first, to oversimplify) 20180525 01:56:46< mattsc> well, again 20180525 01:56:48< mattsc> ... 20180525 01:57:42-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180525 01:57:55< mattsc> Anyway, I’m off. I probably should not have come online right now, sorry for that. 20180525 01:58:05< mattsc> I’ll be back sometime with more time, but not for a couple days. 20180525 01:58:22< aeth> OK 20180525 01:58:29< aeth> bye 20180525 01:59:17< mattsc> bye 20180525 01:59:19-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180525 02:03:27-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 02:05:04<+discordbot1> can you guys develop an AI like AlphaGo? 20180525 02:05:19<+discordbot1> or Alphazero 20180525 02:05:22<+discordbot1> so its like the AI fight itself to get smarter over billions of games 20180525 02:05:26<+discordbot1> I think i suggested tha a long long time ago 20180525 02:05:28<+discordbot1> Yeah! 20180525 02:05:44<+discordbot1> [11:08 AM] Crimson_Conure: what about if you made an AI using alphazero's method of learning the game? [11:08 AM] Crimson_Conure: Alphazero played chess against itself for 4 hours like 10000 games at a time and stuff, which was its method of becoming a stronger chess engine(edited) [11:09 AM] Crimson_Conure: also when it played stockfish, it calculated 60000 moves per second vs stockfish which calculated around 2 million moves 20180525 02:05:45<+discordbot1> per second [11:09 AM] Crimson_Conure: and alphazero crushed [11:10 AM] Crimson_Conure: better positional evaluations and judgement 20180525 02:05:58<+discordbot1> but I doubt the 400MBs of the game can carry this shit tho 20180525 02:06:07<+discordbot1> yeah there was some good reason that it wouldnt work I think 20180525 02:06:11<+discordbot1> besides, giving AI alphago levels intelligence... 20180525 02:06:20<+discordbot1> wouldnt it become impossible to win campaigns 20180525 02:06:25<+discordbot1> 😒 20180525 02:06:30<+discordbot1> you dont have to use it's ai for campaigns 20180525 02:06:34<+discordbot1> but it would 20180525 02:06:42<+discordbot1> agreed. but in mp missions 20180525 02:07:01<+discordbot1> wouldnt AI lame you all day on good tearrians 20180525 02:07:06<+discordbot1> if you just left it as an optional thing then im sure a lot of people would enjoy it. Could be studied for trying to play better 20180525 02:07:07<+discordbot1> yeah 20180525 02:07:20<+discordbot1> 😒 fuck artificial intelligence lol 20180525 02:07:31<+discordbot1> the 400MB cant carry its full mind 20180525 02:07:36<+discordbot1> yeah it gave people a deathly mentality in regards to chess 20180525 02:07:55<+discordbot1> it will kill the player base 20180525 02:08:05<+discordbot1> thats not subtle, i need to rephrase - basically people approach chess in a poor way 20180525 02:08:22<+discordbot1> they just check position with evaluation acccording to the engine and call it good or bad without understanding why or trying to test it out 20180525 02:08:26<+discordbot1> imagine one day in the future, wesnoth AI is so fucking smart that you legit cant win without cheating 20180525 02:08:39<+discordbot1> lol that may happen 20180525 02:08:52<+discordbot1> SPAM LV6 DRAKES 20180525 02:08:58<+discordbot1> 😒 TRAINER MODE ON 20180525 02:09:01<+discordbot1> FUCK STRATEGY 20180525 02:09:02<+discordbot1> also I find it really sweet that you cuss :) its pretty awesome haha! You go guy/girl :D 20180525 02:09:11<+discordbot1> i like people that cuss for some reason OrO 20180525 02:09:13< aeth> the correct way for the AI to win most campaign maps is to just sit and camp and block you from moving on 20180525 02:09:17< aeth> turn limits. 20180525 02:09:21<+discordbot1> oh yeah true 20180525 02:10:22< aeth> If the AI was stronger than humans, you could still adjust that. Reduce its thinking steps or reduce its resources. So e.g. do exactly the opposite of what's done now by giving the AI fewer resources rather than more 20180525 02:11:13< aeth> It would change the feel of the campaigns, though. 20180525 02:30:36<+discordbot1> there is a campaign where 90% of the map is forest and you play as dwarves while the opponent plays as elves, and if the computer played any better than it does then there would be no way to beat the campaign 20180525 02:30:53<+discordbot1> because too much forest and too many elves 20180525 02:31:13<+discordbot1> i think it was in the northern rebirth but I can't remember at all 20180525 02:32:47< aeth> well, no, you'd win if (1) you can still play a dumber AI or (2) there were like 4 elves 20180525 02:33:07< aeth> the unit count would be much lower with a stronger AI 20180525 02:33:23< aeth> probably even Fred 20180525 02:40:31-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-6190-EC1E-14F6-A55A.dyn6.twc.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180525 02:46:40-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-81DF-A4EB-4326-21EC.dyn6.twc.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 03:20:38<+discordbot1> Doable 20180525 04:55:49-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180525 06:17:20<+discordbot1> Kalenz missing at the start of Bounty Hunters? 20180525 06:17:30<+discordbot1> Legend of Wesmere 20180525 06:22:21<+discordbot1> that bug has already been reported 20180525 06:22:46<+discordbot1> I believe it's been fixed for 1.14.2 as well 20180525 06:25:42<+discordbot1> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=628477#p628394 20180525 06:25:49<+discordbot1> looks like it got addressed on the forum 20180525 06:59:41-!- Guest4695 is now known as vincent_c 20180525 07:18:58<+discordbot1> wut...1.14.2? 20180525 07:19:04<+discordbot1> when did it release 20180525 07:19:09<+discordbot1> did it fix the NR's cave problem 20180525 07:19:26<+discordbot1> It hasn't been released. 20180525 07:19:35<+discordbot1> okay good 20180525 07:19:43<+discordbot1> "Fixed for 1.14.2" means that the fix will be in 1.14.2. 20180525 07:19:50<+discordbot1> great, thanks 20180525 07:20:34<+discordbot1> do you guys plan to fix 1. NR scenario 5 cave entry 2. NR scenario 5 Rod of Justice no magic special problems in 1.14.2 20180525 07:21:05<+discordbot1> I don't know, I'm an engine developer. 20180525 07:21:56<+discordbot1> I see 20180525 07:22:26<+discordbot1> so its like you make the legos for this kids to build their toys? 20180525 07:24:12<+discordbot1> Not quite, the legos already exist. 20180525 07:24:22<+discordbot1> Instead, I'm making them shinier. 😉 20180525 07:24:37<+discordbot1> 😄 20180525 07:54:12-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 07:55:31-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 08:05:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 08:05:14-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 08:57:30-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 09:11:37-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 09:59:56<+discordbot1> so 20180525 10:00:09<+discordbot1> are these two fixes on 1.14.2's list already? 20180525 10:18:13-!- ani- [~molgrum@unaffiliated/molgrum] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180525 10:44:24-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180525 11:41:04-!- Guest89064 [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 12:43:44<+discordbot1> The Rod of Justice has now been given the magical ability: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/e161dab24b7299f463423d45f1ea29e47f87338e 20180525 12:44:19<+discordbot1> Regarding the cave entry, I think widening it is unlikely. 20180525 12:49:14<+discordbot1> why is it unlikely to widen the entry? 20180525 12:49:29<+discordbot1> It is a broken design, and the request was submitted long ago, too 20180525 12:50:55<+discordbot1> IIRC, map changes in general are quite rare. And 1.14.2 is scheduled to be released very soon. 20180525 12:51:22<+discordbot1> (It was supposed to be released already, but Vultraz decided to delay it to get hotkey changes in.) 20180525 12:51:31<+discordbot1> ?! 20180525 12:51:50<+discordbot1> But vultraz said he will fix the hex issue like yesterday's night already 20180525 12:51:54<+discordbot1> couple hours ago 20180525 12:53:07<+discordbot1> look 20180525 12:53:12<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/449555520299335681/unknown.png 20180525 12:53:17<+discordbot1> he literally said he will fix the hex first 20180525 12:53:27<+discordbot1> and he wasnt even sure about the rod earlier 20180525 12:54:24<+discordbot1> Ah, indeed. It was widened two weeks ago. 20180525 12:54:25<+discordbot1> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/cc4a14cf4b9e80bb305200f211662a7331cb6b41#diff-70c31c80044168cf86bcd3c88a86b368 20180525 12:54:57<+discordbot1> ......... 20180525 12:55:01<+discordbot1> okay thats cool 20180525 12:55:14<+discordbot1> I will just stop playing wesnoth till 1.14.2 20180525 12:55:21<+discordbot1> then beat the stupid scenario 20180525 12:55:26<+discordbot1> 😂 20180525 12:57:52<+discordbot1> Note that you have to start the scenario from scratch to be affected by the changes 20180525 12:58:19<+discordbot1> np 20180525 12:58:28<+discordbot1> 2 another offwork hours killed 20180525 13:09:43<+discordbot1> I saved the changes and beat the scenario 20180525 13:09:45<+discordbot1> it was fun 20180525 13:51:12-!- Guest89064 [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 14:11:38<+discordbot1> I ignored the SE path when I played. What's in there? 20180525 14:13:02-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 14:15:05<+discordbot1> hopefully not another loyal unit that gets auto-recalled 20180525 14:16:19<+discordbot1> a Loyal L2 Ghost - no Idea if he get's autorecalled 20180525 14:19:14<+discordbot1> I guess every loyal unit in the campaign get auto recalled. 20180525 14:25:17-!- DDR [~david@ec2.happyspork.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180525 14:27:14-!- DDR [~david@ec2.happyspork.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 14:38:08<+discordbot1> There's also a lot of holy water that you pretty much don't care about once you're able to reach it. 20180525 14:45:20<+discordbot1> I have a very surprise <3 20180525 14:45:27<+discordbot1> And boy is he cute 20180525 14:46:17<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/449583973648039940/image.jpg 20180525 14:47:29<+discordbot1> Chirp chirp! OuO 20180525 14:50:07<+discordbot1> neat 20180525 14:50:50<+discordbot1> :) oh yeah by the way, pentarctagon, do you have a favorite pony??? 20180525 14:51:13<+discordbot1> I like twilight sparkle x) 20180525 14:55:15<+discordbot1> Discord is fun. He's quite similar to Q as well, so that's been amusing. 20180525 14:55:46<+discordbot1> Sorry but I dont understand? ;_; 20180525 14:56:12<+discordbot1> Q from Star Trek voices Discord 20180525 14:56:42<+discordbot1> Who is similar to Q? 20180525 14:57:16<+discordbot1> Discord. both are random and mostly able to bend reality however they want. 20180525 14:57:50<+discordbot1> OHHH i thought you meant... discord program 20180525 14:57:57<+discordbot1> Lol xD you meant the dragon 20180525 14:58:03<+discordbot1> https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/c/c3/Mariachi_group.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20161204064633&path-prefix=en 20180525 14:58:21<+discordbot1> ^from the actual show 20180525 14:58:25<+discordbot1> xD 20180525 14:58:27<+discordbot1> What's this??? ÒuO xD 20180525 14:58:31<+discordbot1> cool lol 20180525 15:00:38<+discordbot1> Lol my friends think im weird cuz im a brony and a furry but oh well x) xD 20180525 15:03:26<+discordbot1> yeah, I don't much care, let's please not talk about furries on this channel. 20180525 15:15:17<+discordbot1> Is there any campaign about the age right before Garard I take the throne? 20180525 15:16:50<+discordbot1> I think the campaign closest to that age would be DiD. 20180525 15:20:02<+discordbot1> If I am not wrong, here are them by chronological order: - The Rise of Wesnoth - An Orcish Incursion - Legend of Wesmere - The Sceptre of Fire - A Tale of Two Brothers - Descent into Darkness - Delfador's Memoirs - Liberty - Heir to the Throne - Northern Rebirth - The Hammer of Thursagan - The South Guard - The Eastern Invasion - Dead Water - Son of the Black Eye - Under the Burning Suns 20180525 15:20:21<+discordbot1> I might have gotten a couple incorrect, however. 20180525 15:20:24<+discordbot1> Thanks. 20180525 15:20:55<+discordbot1> there's a button to sort by chronological order 20180525 15:22:46<+discordbot1> I was toying with the idea of making a campaign about Orcs coming to raid Wesnoth in the first dark age, and Garard I can play a part here. So I was wondering about whether this part of the story is covered. 20180525 15:23:32<+discordbot1> @Vultraz I don't have 13.6 yet, or the new release, and I did notice that was a new feature, but I have not seen it myself yet. 20180525 15:46:55-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 15:47:01-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 15:48:36-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 16:01:38-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 16:16:43-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-79-9.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Quit: I'm not back now.] 20180525 16:27:25<+discordbot1> @Lupin if you are interested in lore and orcs, may I shill to you tht I'm working on an angle in that direction at the moment and like all Beta-reading and feedback I can get 😃 20180525 17:04:10-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 17:10:47< mattsc> aeth et al.: I have now read up on what you wrote yesterday. 20180525 17:11:21< mattsc> I’m not going to say much about it. I have tried all of that (and a lot more) and my experience is that the simple solutions don’t work. 20180525 17:11:48< mattsc> Well, let me rephrase that: I can’t get them to work (but I think that that’s not only because I don’t know what I am doing). 20180525 17:12:37-!- ani- [~molgrum@databur.st] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 17:13:00< mattsc> All the (relatively) simple approaches I have tried might work in some settings, but they easily become “unstable” when you change things. 20180525 17:13:21< mattsc> Suddenly you have a Great Troll run away from a Peasant or something. 20180525 17:13:58< mattsc> So you need to add evaluation weighting functions to take that into account, which results in something else not working as desired which requires new adjustments which … 20180525 17:15:15< mattsc> Bottom line is, Fred is the current result of all this, it’s the best I have been managed to do so far along the lines of a not-entirely-aggressive AI; and I am continuing to work on it. 20180525 17:15:51< ani-> hello 20180525 17:15:56< mattsc> It is modular and very configurable, so once it works well enough, you can turn on/off as much of it as you want and add it to whatever setting you want. 20180525 17:17:32< mattsc> But the nice thing is, with the Lua AI mechanism, anybody can try out their own ideas. I’ll be more than happy to help you get set up with that. 20180525 17:18:09< mattsc> ani-: hi 20180525 17:19:08-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180525 17:34:16-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 17:42:41-!- ani- [~molgrum@databur.st] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20180525 17:45:18-!- ani- [~molgrum@databur.st] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 18:42:33-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 19:11:59<+discordbot1> Hi does anyone have any tips for playing orc? 20180525 19:12:08<+discordbot1> in regards to positioning in the map 20180525 19:12:14<+discordbot1> Do grunts belong in villages 20180525 19:15:19<+discordbot1> Gruts belongs in a pile of angry orcs, surround enemies 3 to 1 until they die. Use your orc assassins to annoy your enemy with poison And with the money left, just recruit trolls sie they don’t die 20180525 19:16:50<+discordbot1> @Crimson_Conure other units are jus very situational, if someone disagrees, fight me. 20180525 19:29:24<+discordbot1> there is a strategy guide on the wiki 20180525 19:34:57<+discordbot1> Oh that too 20180525 19:35:05-!- ani- is now known as `ani` 20180525 19:38:18-!- `ani` [~molgrum@databur.st] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20180525 19:40:18-!- ani- [~molgrum@databur.st] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 19:46:41<+discordbot1> @SsIraS Thank you! what about villages! 20180525 20:01:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 20:01:51-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 20:01:51-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180525 20:15:06-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 20:19:38-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180525 20:55:20-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180525 21:24:58-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180525 21:25:08-!- ibispi [~quassel@188.246.34.98] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 21:36:07-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 21:43:25-!- Smedles [~quassel@101.166.201.190] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20180525 21:44:41-!- Smedles [~quassel@101.166.201.190] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 21:48:19<+discordbot1> Why do people place human castles deepinside caves? How did they come there? 20180525 21:49:48<+discordbot1> it's the dwarves doing a false flag operation 20180525 21:49:54<+discordbot1> Some human king thought "Well, this cave is a good place for a castle! I really like the dampy atmosphere and the darkness!" and build it. D'uh. 20180525 21:54:17<+discordbot1> tbf an underground castle sounds pretty cool 20180525 21:55:47<+discordbot1> well 20180525 21:56:24<+discordbot1> If the humans got rid of the sun vitamin and the need for it, we could, hypothetically, live underground, I think. 20180525 21:56:47<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/449692324176330752/underground_kingdom_by_bezduch-d8koc17.png 20180525 21:56:57<+discordbot1> just go out from time to time, like a whale 20180525 21:57:32<+discordbot1> I'd have no problem living underground. Too much people out here in the crust. 20180525 21:57:50<+discordbot1> Not that all people are a problem. 20180525 21:58:47-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 21:58:47< hk238> hello 20180525 22:14:24<+discordbot1> Now Troll Encampments exist. They fit somehow good with human keeps. 20180525 22:15:03<+discordbot1> Undead encampment with High Keep are an option for caves too (when fighting undead or other develish creatures, that is) 20180525 22:16:00<+discordbot1> Even Orcish Castles fit in caves - as long as not combined with the Orcish Keep 20180525 22:17:07<+discordbot1> And with a cave, you usually don't have to worry about tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, as long as you are down far enough, and not near a coast. 20180525 22:17:49<+discordbot1> Earthquakes tend to be more dangerous though 20180525 22:17:58<+discordbot1> Yeah 20180525 22:18:08<+discordbot1> and your village could be destroyed 20180525 22:18:26<+discordbot1> Kinda like here in utah. 20180525 22:18:51<+discordbot1> We decided to build like 70% of our cities along a major fault line. 20180525 22:19:27<+discordbot1> Probably not the best idea. 20180525 22:20:31<+discordbot1> Well, place is rare, people build villages about everywhere.... (except undergrouds, no idea why not) 20180525 22:23:07<+discordbot1> Yeah...humans place villages everywhere. 20180525 22:23:12<+discordbot1> In weird places. 20180525 22:23:16<+discordbot1> And unique ways. 20180525 22:23:39<+discordbot1> Isn't there a human village built like the Ewok one in Ep. VI in SW? 20180525 22:27:19<+discordbot1> Eventually by some tribe.. 20180525 23:00:00-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180525 23:10:38-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180525 23:14:02<+discordbot1> when you are so desperate to get your friends to play wesnoth you spam the link in their discord 20180525 23:17:20<+discordbot1> That's probably just going to make them assume it's overhyped rubbish lol 20180525 23:29:46<+discordbot1> Wesnoth is the best game I've played, I just feel the community and downloads lack in numbers. 20180525 23:30:09<+discordbot1> In my opinion, I think it's much better than any of the MMOs dominating the app stores right now. 20180525 23:30:14<+discordbot1> And it's quite unique. 20180525 23:38:52<+discordbot1> it's certainly the best free game I've played 20180525 23:47:26<+discordbot1> And it doesn't have the in-game purchasing, where MMO players take advantage of. It's 100% free, and that's only part of the reason I like it so much. The game design, the maps, the units, the stats, the campaigns, the add ons, it's all really immersive and contributes to Wesnoth's greatness. 20180525 23:49:34-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180525 23:51:09-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: mattsc] --- Log closed Sat May 26 00:00:09 2018