--- Log opened Sun Jun 03 00:00:49 2018 20180603 00:55:45-!- irker137 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 00:55:45< irker137> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:1.14 b828281837a0 / src/server/ (player.cpp player.hpp server.cpp server.hpp): add player_version mp command https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b828281837a0277c92d2cd9073c4b3401e693fe5 20180603 00:55:45< irker137> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:1.14 c6aef1bab7ad / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): rename mp command player_version to version https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c6aef1bab7ad9d3bb82b58b62f3e4944546f3ba1 20180603 00:55:46< irker137> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:1.14 cba86cc7cdf2 / src/server/ (player.cpp player.hpp server.cpp server.hpp): Merge pull request #3203 from gfgtdf/1.14 https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/cba86cc7cdf20feb2a88066b42744601496111b2 20180603 00:55:55< irker137> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Charles Dang 287775c787 Game Config Manager: handle clearing ima AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 00:56:04-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e363ab2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 01:20:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 01:20:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 01:27:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 01:28:03-!- janebot_ [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 01:28:04-!- janebot_ is now known as janebot 20180603 02:00:07-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 02:00:13-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 02:04:40-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e363ab2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.8.0/20180430140610]] 20180603 02:34:55< irker137> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Charles Dang 011cbfe3b8 Game Config Manager: handle clearing ima AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 02:47:50-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180603 02:52:24-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 04:54:40< irker137> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 gfgtdf 48d968ed75 rename mp command player_version to vers AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 05:27:29-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180603 05:39:02-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 07:27:55<+discordbot5> I have a question guys 20180603 07:28:10<+discordbot5> if I downloaded an addon, but it cant show up in the map list 20180603 07:28:13<+discordbot5> is it a bug? 20180603 07:29:51<+discordbot5> depends 20180603 07:31:40<+discordbot5> ok 20180603 07:31:48<+discordbot5> for example 20180603 07:31:54<+discordbot5> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259976436490829825/452736158669996044/unknown.png 20180603 07:32:00<+discordbot5> I downloaded this "vs survival" pack 20180603 07:32:11<+discordbot5> but it cant show up in the map list in game 20180603 07:33:19< irker137> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 gfgtdf cba86cc7cd Merge pull request #3203 from gfgtdf/1.1 AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 07:55:59<+discordbot5> odd 20180603 07:56:01<+discordbot5> did you F5? 20180603 08:45:34-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 09:46:35-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:a0e8:f1bc:9bba:822b] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 09:56:57-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180603 09:57:13-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 10:10:15< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:master 3a8343b4dd47 / / (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/3a8343b4dd478497d1f2dd428e391f64b640a8b1 20180603 10:10:17< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:master 87552f083b11 / po/ (wesnoth-ai/it.po wesnoth-low/it.po): updated Italian translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/87552f083b115cabef0a4d981e4913cd7c43a15c 20180603 10:10:19< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:master ad0b8bce8ca8 / po/ (wesnoth-httt/fr.po wesnoth-sotbe/fr.po wesnoth-tb/fr.po wesnoth-thot/fr.po): updated French translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ad0b8bce8ca8d4c84dab205b6ed7608c437cd87e 20180603 10:10:22< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:1.14 14f92172baab / / (6 files in 5 dirs): updated Chinese (Traditional) translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/14f92172baab8e0ff825fbc8b8855da003782365 20180603 10:10:24< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:1.14 5dea9f2cb732 / po/ (wesnoth-ai/it.po wesnoth-low/it.po): updated Italian translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5dea9f2cb732d299e1c3f23fd4b326f39ce3d7ae 20180603 10:10:26< irker137> wesnoth: Nils Kneuper wesnoth:1.14 4c4e15aeb583 / po/ (wesnoth-httt/fr.po wesnoth-sotbe/fr.po wesnoth-tb/fr.po wesnoth-thot/fr.po): updated French translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4c4e15aeb583ec108a9d5747cacd1cdf2f746ca3 20180603 10:45:38-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 10:48:19-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 11:04:35-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 11:06:05<+discordbot5> o, shit 20180603 11:06:14<+discordbot5> release is in a week 20180603 11:06:29<+discordbot5> @loonycyborg could you run a pot-update? 20180603 11:07:25<+discordbot5> ok 20180603 11:10:10-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 11:25:19-!- irker137 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180603 11:31:17-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e363ab2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 11:45:37<+discordbot5> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48296 20180603 11:46:08<+discordbot5> would be cool if someone tried that guide 20180603 11:56:17< gfgtdf> Soliton: please upodate official wesnothd for my latest commit (no hurry, but it'd be nice to have) 20180603 11:59:14-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:a0e8:f1bc:9bba:822b] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180603 13:14:17< wedge009> I had a look at MSYS2 a fair while ago with respect to the current way to get GTK binaries on Windows. I didn't get very far... 20180603 13:15:51<+discordbot5> “ 20180603 13:15:54<+discordbot5> How is it different from mingw 20180603 13:16:28<+discordbot5> zh_TW.po contains broken XML tags 20180603 13:16:55< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: ^ 20180603 13:17:00< loonycyborg> I think I can fix it though 20180603 13:18:39< loonycyborg> wedge009: well you can try to reproduce my instructions 20180603 13:48:01-!- irker690 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 13:48:01< irker690> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:1.14 b460ab38cce0 / po/wesnoth-manual/zh_TW.po: Fix broken xml in po file https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b460ab38cce02b3f3c9ec11ffe40da02ffd47628 20180603 13:48:01< irker690> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:1.14 b7753edd9d64 / / (516 files in 18 dirs): pot-update and regenerate doc files https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/b7753edd9d645819ecc4a974017741e581695863 20180603 14:09:57-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 14:28:23-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 14:28:29-!- janebot [~Gambot@206.189.184.60] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 14:28:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@206.189.184.60] has quit [Changing host] 20180603 14:28:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 14:29:38< Soliton> gfgtdf: please fix the loop thing celticminstrel mentioned first. 20180603 14:29:56< celticminstrel> ? 20180603 14:30:16< Soliton> gfgtdf: it'd be nice to also display the version in status output now. 20180603 14:37:14< Soliton> hmm, now the lobby layout changed to show the full list of games and have a scrollbar on the whole window. the chat area is one line tall now. 20180603 14:44:58<+discordbot5> oh FFS 20180603 14:44:59<+discordbot5> >_> 20180603 14:45:09<+discordbot5> I thought i squashed that! 20180603 14:45:11< celticminstrel> What's the loop thing I mentioned? 20180603 14:46:14< Soliton> the new server command to show the wesnoth version of a client. 20180603 14:46:28< celticminstrel> Huh? 20180603 14:46:33< celticminstrel> Ohh. 20180603 14:46:41< Soliton> i'll commit it in a bit though since gfgtdf seems afk. 20180603 14:46:44< celticminstrel> Right, I remember now. 20180603 14:49:53< celticminstrel> What about adding a space to the compare() call for commands that take an argument? 20180603 14:50:03< celticminstrel> Like .compar(0, 8, "version ") for example. 20180603 14:50:56< celticminstrel> Looking more closely it seems gfgtdf was just following the existing style. 20180603 14:51:04< celticminstrel> But IMO it's still questionable. 20180603 14:51:29<+discordbot5> what's going on 20180603 14:52:17< celticminstrel> Was this seen? I might've already mentioned it though. https://steamcommunity.com/app/599390/discussions/0/1696048786956526098/ 20180603 14:52:36<+discordbot5> you did 20180603 14:52:43<+discordbot5> you should file anissue 20180603 14:53:04< celticminstrel> Meh, not worth it... would be more worthwhile to just commit a fix directly. 20180603 14:54:16<+discordbot5> if you have such a thing 20180603 14:54:56< Soliton> well, version is allowed with or without arguments. not sure if there is a reason for report or adminmsg. 20180603 14:55:37< celticminstrel> I think there should be a way to fix it with an [avoid] tag in the allied side's AI, but I'd have to check the code to be sure how exactly to do that. 20180603 14:56:03< celticminstrel> Soliton: Oh right. TBH I think the best way would be to actually parse out the first token and just compare that with == 20180603 14:56:24< celticminstrel> (Could use string_view even, I guess.) 20180603 14:57:55< Soliton> the actual parsing is done in a different function right now but sure it could be refactored. 20180603 14:58:15< celticminstrel> Well, not something for 1.14 then. 20180603 15:02:15< celticminstrel> Oh yeah, do we want to do the thing where a Lua error does not interrupt the event? 20180603 15:04:04< Soliton> might be nicer than interrupting even if it's not clear if the remaining event depends on the lua part that errored. 20180603 15:07:57< celticminstrel> Just need to make sure we can still give a call stack, then... 20180603 15:08:11< celticminstrel> I think just using a basic pcall() might not be enough? 20180603 15:10:05< celticminstrel> Is it possible to use a custom message handler without digging into the C API? Guessing not though... 20180603 15:10:39< Soliton> hmm, you even get the chat log history if you join a completely different server. this might be a bit confusing. 20180603 15:10:44< celticminstrel> XD 20180603 15:11:15< celticminstrel> Anyway I think using a custom message handler will be necessary in order to not lose the stack trace. 20180603 15:12:34< celticminstrel> I wouldn't be averse to replacing standard pcall() with one that wraps the error message. 20180603 15:13:04< celticminstrel> Alternatively, replacing standard error() with something that wraps the message might work? 20180603 15:13:28< celticminstrel> Though that might fail to catch certain types of errors. 20180603 15:22:12<+discordbot5> What are you people talking about 20180603 15:29:36<+discordbot5> anyway 20180603 15:29:39<+discordbot5> string freeze is active 20180603 15:30:44< celticminstrel> Oh. 20180603 15:34:49<+discordbot5> oh? 20180603 15:37:54< celticminstrel> ... 20180603 15:38:55<+discordbot5> what is going on here! 20180603 15:39:14< celticminstrel> I think you're reading too much into my "oh". 20180603 15:39:34< celticminstrel> It was just a response to you, like "Oh, string freeze" . 20180603 15:40:56<+discordbot5> I see 20180603 15:46:20-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 15:46:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 15:54:03<+discordbot5> I think I won't immediately seta date for 1.14.4 after 1.14.3 is out. 20180603 15:54:59<+discordbot5> We've gotten past the point where we need the two week release schedule, as I anticipated. 20180603 15:55:32<+discordbot5> 1.14.3 will have fewer changes than 1.14.2, and while there are may campaign-related bugs, the number of engine bugs reported has dropped dramatically 20180603 15:56:34<+discordbot5> We'll probably do 1.14.4 sometime in July. 20180603 15:56:53<+discordbot5> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/3201 sounds like it would be good to get into 1.14.3 though 20180603 15:57:21<+discordbot5> I have no idea what to do about that 20180603 15:58:18<+discordbot5> did someone change something in the stats handling 20180603 15:59:24<+discordbot5> oh, yeah... 20180603 16:00:05<+discordbot5> did we ever fix that bug where local server instances stay open in perpetuity? 20180603 16:00:09< Soliton> i wouldn't be so sure it's a change in 1.14.2 since i'm not aware of any stats handling change either. there is a known stats issue with reloads though. 20180603 16:00:20< celticminstrel> What about the bug with ghost users on the server? 20180603 16:00:31< Soliton> not fixed yet. 20180603 16:02:49<+discordbot5> I think by the end of the year we'll have 1.14 in a good enough state that, barring art updates or serious issues, we won't be making any more numbered releases, at least not on any planned schedule. Translation updates would still go out to steam, though. 20180603 16:03:48< Soliton> why do you want to special case steam? 20180603 16:04:35<+discordbot5> It's not worth making a new numbered release on desktop and Steam just to dispense translation updates. 20180603 16:04:40< celticminstrel> Bad Vultraz. If you're putting out translations updates, you need to at least make periodic numbered releases to match. 20180603 16:04:49< celticminstrel> It's totally worth it. 20180603 16:04:59<+discordbot5> I am not getting into this argument. 20180603 16:05:04< celticminstrel> Just do like, one a month or every two months or something if there's no other reason to make a release. 20180603 16:05:17<+discordbot5> At some point, yes, there will need to be a numbered desktop release including translation updates 20180603 16:05:29<+discordbot5> But Steam players will get them in the interim 20180603 16:05:38< celticminstrel> This is really extremely unfair. 20180603 16:06:09< celticminstrel> Stop favouring half your userbase over the other half. 20180603 16:06:59<+discordbot5> It's practical. 20180603 16:07:07< celticminstrel> That's no excuse. 20180603 16:07:40<+discordbot5> I said there would be numbered desktop releases with translation updates. 20180603 16:07:41< Soliton> that's also no explanation. could as well just update ios because it's "practical"? 20180603 16:07:48<+discordbot5> But not every time a translation update is pushed to Steam. 20180603 16:08:17< celticminstrel> Then set a planned schedule for it. 20180603 16:08:27< celticminstrel> Like, "Steam gets updates once a week, SF once a month" 20180603 16:09:02<+discordbot5> That is literally what I intended. Times to be determined. 20180603 16:09:17< celticminstrel> ... 20180603 16:09:29< celticminstrel> Okay, that's fine then. 20180603 16:09:58< celticminstrel> But that literally contradicts what you said a few minutes ago. 20180603 16:10:07<+discordbot5> Please tone down the ellipsis responses in chat. 20180603 16:10:12<+discordbot5> No it doesn't? 20180603 16:10:13<+discordbot5> "At some point, yes, there will need to be a numbered desktop release including translation updates But Steam players will get them in the interim" 20180603 16:10:25< Soliton> so is "practical" code for it's easiest or it's our largest userbase or? 20180603 16:10:28< celticminstrel> "barring art updates or serious issues, we won't be making any more numbered releases, at least not on any planned schedule." 20180603 16:10:28<+discordbot5> I'm sorry if that wasn't clear 20180603 16:10:48< celticminstrel> We don't even know if Steam hosts the majority of the userbase. 20180603 16:11:07<+discordbot5> Planned schedule meaning, ie, "1.14.8 will be out on September 15th" 20180603 16:11:10< celticminstrel> Is there even a way to find out? 20180603 16:11:10<+discordbot5> for example 20180603 16:11:10< Soliton> we could check if that is part of the reason. 20180603 16:11:42< celticminstrel> We can certainly get download counts from Steam, and I guess from SF.net too? 20180603 16:12:07< celticminstrel> But that won't cover all the Linux distributions (though most don't even have 1.14.x yet). 20180603 16:12:14<+discordbot5> What I meant was making releases once we have content for them as opposed to on a strict schedule. 20180603 16:12:24<+discordbot5> Art counts as content. 20180603 16:12:33< Soliton> sure won't be easy but let's first figure out if it's even relevant. 20180603 16:12:33< celticminstrel> Translations should, too. 20180603 16:12:36<+discordbot5> and I promised LB we'd immediately have a release if he has more art 20180603 16:12:44<+discordbot5> such as the UtBS story art 20180603 16:13:12<+discordbot5> oh, yeah, I should have mentioned this to zookeeper... 20180603 16:13:42<+discordbot5> @zookeeper I spoke to LB about a month ago about continuing the UtBS story art set he started in 2010. 20180603 16:13:48<+discordbot5> he said he would 20180603 16:17:19<+discordbot5> celmin: according to Steam, we've had 75,255 first-time downloads (people who downloaded and played) over the last month, and 107,920 people who added it to their library. 20180603 16:17:35< celticminstrel> I don't understand the difference... 20180603 16:17:39< celticminstrel> Oh, wait/ 20180603 16:17:46< celticminstrel> The second is people who installed but didn't play? 20180603 16:17:51<+discordbot5> essentially 20180603 16:17:56< celticminstrel> Or rather... 20180603 16:17:58<+discordbot5> these stats are rather weird, though. 20180603 16:18:05< celticminstrel> People who installed regardless of whether they actually played. 20180603 16:18:12<+discordbot5> in the sense that the numbers they give are odd for certain ranges 20180603 16:18:15< celticminstrel> ...wait, which of the two is it... 20180603 16:18:36<+discordbot5> for example, if you filter for 3 months, it shows 86,615 first-time downloads 20180603 16:18:43<+discordbot5> how is that even possible 20180603 16:18:47<+discordbot5> I have no idea! 20180603 16:20:09-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4e363ab2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.8.0/20180430140610]] 20180603 16:21:48<+discordbot5> sourceforge doesn't seem to offer download stats 20180603 16:22:29< irker690> wesnoth: Gunter Labes wesnoth:1.14 f1bf186c872d / src/server/server.cpp: check for empty parameters before looping over all players https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/f1bf186c872d9446af0cdeb3c41ef027dbb0af62 20180603 16:23:37<+discordbot5> heh 20180603 16:23:58<+discordbot5> 0.03% of Wesnoth players are in the UAE. 20180603 16:24:20< celticminstrel> IIRC the Arabic translation is woefully incomplete though. :/ 20180603 16:24:35-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 16:24:45<+discordbot5> yes 20180603 16:24:56<+discordbot5> interesting enough 20180603 16:24:58<+discordbot5> according to this 20180603 16:25:05<+discordbot5> China is our second-largest player base 20180603 16:25:17< celticminstrel> After? 20180603 16:25:20<+discordbot5> the US 20180603 16:25:22< Soliton> https://sourceforge.net/projects/wesnoth/files/stats/timeline?dates=2018-02-28%20to%202018-06-01&period=weekly 20180603 16:25:51<+discordbot5> never would have found that 20180603 16:26:19<+discordbot5> oh hey, we have Saudi players 20180603 16:26:57<+discordbot5> Truly a worldwide player base 20180603 16:28:28-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:a0e8:f1bc:9bba:822b] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 16:28:37< Soliton> so can you clarify what practical means? 20180603 16:30:41<+discordbot5> Say Ivanovic commits a translation update one week. And I ask the packagers to push it to steam that weekend. An then the next week he commits another. I do the same thing. I would be way too much hassle to do the whole release process each time. 20180603 16:32:45<+discordbot5> Translation updates are important and should go out quickly, but the full release process is to do on a weekly or so basis. 20180603 16:32:51<+discordbot5> Too much to do 20180603 16:33:09<+discordbot5> So instead of waiting on them, they can go out on Steam, which is 100x easier 20180603 16:33:18<+discordbot5> Sitting* 20180603 16:34:31< Soliton> why is it 100x easier? what steps can you leave out for a steam release? 20180603 16:34:52<+discordbot5> everything 20180603 16:35:38<+discordbot5> all the packagers need to do is run a few commands, and the update is dispatched. 20180603 16:35:44<+discordbot5> and everyone gets it 20180603 16:35:44<+discordbot5> and everyone gets it 20180603 16:35:55<+discordbot5> no version bumps, tags, release announcements, etc etc etc 20180603 16:36:01< Soliton> why can't all packagers do that what's special about steam? 20180603 16:36:29<+discordbot5> what do you mean 20180603 16:36:40-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 16:37:26<+discordbot5> Releasing an update on Steam is nothing like packaging up a new installer for a desktop release. 20180603 16:38:14<+discordbot5> actually I can make a flatpak automatically from 1.14 branch 20180603 16:38:18< Soliton> do elaborate. 20180603 16:38:32<+discordbot5> but distro packagers won't track a branch 20180603 16:38:38<+discordbot5> they work based on particular releases 20180603 16:39:05< Soliton> they can also do packages for random unreleased versions. whether that is a good idea is a different question. 20180603 16:39:52< Soliton> it seems the only issue here is that the release procedure is apparently too tedious so maybe we should try to improve that. 20180603 16:41:22<+discordbot5> I don't fully understand the actual technical steps required to push a release to Steam. The docs are messy. But I do know once it's set up (as it is for loony and hrubymar), it's just a matter of a few commands and a few minutes. Pretty sure there's no packaging, no installers to create, and there's no uploading to sourceforge, no checksums to upload to f.wo, no tags for me to create, no release announcements to write, no wiki 20180603 16:41:22<+discordbot5> and front pages to update... 20180603 16:41:35<+discordbot5> The release process is more than just the building of packages. 20180603 16:42:00< Soliton> that is pretty much the same for other platforms as well. 20180603 16:42:12<+discordbot5> You're making no sense 20180603 16:42:31< Soliton> as i said the issue seems to be to do proper releases nothing specific to steam. 20180603 16:43:07<+discordbot5> Steam updates are not the same as a new numbered release 20180603 16:43:09<+discordbot5> 😐 20180603 16:43:38< Soliton> s/Steam// 20180603 16:44:13<+discordbot5> The plan is for Steam players to get translation updates BETWEEN the regular releases 20180603 16:44:15< Soliton> you can as well put unreleased versions in the debian packager or anywhere else. 20180603 16:44:17<+discordbot5> How hard is that to understand 20180603 16:44:32< Soliton> it is hard to understand why steam is a special case. 20180603 16:44:48<+discordbot5> It's not special 20180603 16:44:53<+discordbot5> Because it's easy to dispatch updates to and people don't download the whole all over and over! 20180603 16:44:55<+discordbot5> I can do that with flatpak too 20180603 16:45:00<+discordbot5> ^ 20180603 16:45:21< Soliton> does this mean you agree with loonycyborg? 20180603 16:45:34< celticminstrel> You do realize this is not something that can only be done on Steam, right. 20180603 16:45:52<+discordbot5> Okay, correct me if I'm wrong here. The only reason Steam is a special case wrt translations is because translations (tend to) move forward faster than the rest of the codebase. 20180603 16:46:01<+discordbot5> And the only updates Steam gets out of band right now are translation updates. 20180603 16:46:08<+discordbot5> Yes 20180603 16:46:10<+discordbot5> but on the other hand 20180603 16:46:32<+discordbot5> There's also the fact that translation updates are quite safe and have a low risk of causing regressions. 20180603 16:46:36<+discordbot5> I doubt that we should release translations at faster pace than usual updates 20180603 16:46:47<+discordbot5> it's nice to be able to do that, but not critical 20180603 16:47:02<+discordbot5> But you're already doing it. 20180603 16:47:12<+discordbot5> Technically they're only done it once 20180603 16:47:12<+discordbot5> I did it only once so far 20180603 16:47:20<+discordbot5> Due to our release schedule 20180603 16:47:23<+discordbot5> When you phrase it like that you make it sound like there's a reason against doing it. 20180603 16:47:25<+discordbot5> and the string freeze 20180603 16:47:28<+discordbot5> s 20180603 16:47:45<+discordbot5> For example, I can't ask them to do it now since the pots have been updated 20180603 16:47:54< Soliton> so as i understand it there is nothing special about steam but the plan is to do unversioned updates for translations. 20180603 16:48:37<+discordbot5> the "special" part is that people don't re-download the whole app for 5 MB of changes. 20180603 16:48:52<+discordbot5> If flathub or whatever can do that too, then they're in the same boat 20180603 16:49:03< Soliton> any other platform can do delta updates just as well. 20180603 16:49:07<+discordbot5> well I'm not sure it's good idea with flathub 20180603 16:49:16<+discordbot5> Can I do delta updates on Debian? 20180603 16:49:18< Soliton> whether they choose to do so should not be our concern. 20180603 16:49:18<+discordbot5> but I definitely can do this from wesnoth org 20180603 16:49:36<+discordbot5> and yes, translation updates to Steam will not constitute a version bump! 20180603 16:49:42<+discordbot5> Because I'd honestly love it if I didn't have to download 120 MB for a packaging update on GCC. 20180603 16:50:27<+discordbot5> Example case: First of the month we had a numbered release, say, 1.14.5. Then each week, Ivanovic pushes some translation updates. Each weekend, those get pushed to Steam. And then first of next month we have 1.14.6 on Steam and desktop. 20180603 16:50:28< Soliton> i don't think debian does delta updates. not sure why. they do something like that for the package meta data, i think. 20180603 16:50:39<+discordbot5> Why is this so hard to understand. 20180603 16:51:29<+discordbot5> because of the simplicity of distribution and the importance of translation updates, Steam players can get them between releases 20180603 16:51:43< irker690> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Nils Kneuper ad0b8bce8c updated French translation AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 16:51:51< Soliton> what if someone commits a bug fix in between? 20180603 16:52:01<+discordbot5> It doesn't go into Steam. 20180603 16:52:05<+discordbot5> ^ 20180603 16:52:14<+discordbot5> Only the compiled translation catalogues are pushed into Steam between releases. 20180603 16:52:22< Soliton> right, so what happens to the translation update? 20180603 16:52:39<+discordbot5> ...what? 20180603 16:52:43< Soliton> so the updates are not even from a git version? 20180603 16:52:52<+discordbot5> ........what? 20180603 16:52:58<+discordbot5> Stop doing that, vultraz. 20180603 16:53:03<+discordbot5> If there's not been a pot-update the translation catalogues from the 1.14 branch are compatible with the latest release. 20180603 16:53:17<+discordbot5> There's only a pot-update at the start of a string freeze and right before a release is tagged. 20180603 16:53:40<+discordbot5> Therefore unless people decide to manually tamper with the translation catalogues or use pofix, there should be no issues. 20180603 16:53:53<+discordbot5> Because of our tight release schedule, there's only been one opportunity to push out-of-band translation updates 20180603 16:53:56<+discordbot5> But that will change soon 20180603 16:54:15<+discordbot5> basically if we do translation only updates then files that people go via steam will match latest release as far as data and binary is concerned 20180603 16:54:29<+discordbot5> but includes newer mo files 20180603 16:54:38<+discordbot5> (pofix is a case that's not been considered yet I think. For reference, pofix is the tool that people use to alter translatable strings to fix typos and such without making the strings fuzzy or untranslated.) 20180603 16:54:39<+discordbot5> so yes it won't match a particular git revision 20180603 16:54:43<+discordbot5> Because as I said, after 1.14.3 there will be a longer period before 1.14.4 20180603 16:55:21<+discordbot5> @loonycyborg Why exactly do the binaries match? Are they reproducible builds? 20180603 16:55:42<+discordbot5> (See https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds ) 20180603 16:56:00< Soliton> i assume there won't actually be new binaries. 20180603 16:56:00<+discordbot5> they simply won't be updated because I won't make a new build for translation only update 20180603 16:56:21<+discordbot5> Imagine a scenario where we had to wait 6 months to accumulate enough changes to justify a version bump. I don't want translation progress made during that time to stagnate in the repo. 20180603 16:56:22<+discordbot5> I think jyrkive is asking if we can expect wesnoth.exe to have the same checksum on Steam and SF.net. 20180603 16:56:35<+discordbot5> currently no 20180603 16:56:36<+discordbot5> (For a given release.) 20180603 16:56:42<+discordbot5> because I make them with different toolchains 20180603 16:56:57<+discordbot5> Right, I thought so. I assume the same goes for macOS. 20180603 16:57:07<+discordbot5> Does that matter? 20180603 16:57:17-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180603 16:57:32-!- fabi [~fabi@i577BCD05.versanet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 16:57:32-!- fabi [~fabi@i577BCD05.versanet.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180603 16:57:32-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 16:57:32<+discordbot5> You could read up on the subject of reproducible builds. 20180603 16:57:36-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Converse confortabelmente. En calquera parte.] 20180603 16:57:50<+discordbot5> You know, when you get some free time. 20180603 16:58:10<+discordbot5> It's not mandatory reading, just consider it bonus material that can earn you extra credits. 20180603 16:58:26<+discordbot5> byte-for-byte, eh.. 20180603 16:58:41<+discordbot5> That's kind of what is involved when I say "same checksum", yeah. 20180603 16:59:06<+discordbot5> I don't see it as a necessity for us but it's important for more mission-critical software. 20180603 16:59:30<+discordbot5> Basically, "can I trust the distributor to not have tampered with the source of this software that could have disastrous effects if someone decided to inject malware into it?" 20180603 16:59:37< Soliton> so i guess steam then is a special case because we push updates ourselves and we cannot ask third party platforms to do such shenanigans for translation updates since presumably we don't even tag the git revision from which to take the translations or anything like that. 20180603 16:59:58<+discordbot5> I think wesnoth's builds have a good chance to be reproducible if toolchain/dependencies are fixed 20180603 17:00:29<+discordbot5> It'd be unfeasible to tag them without making a new branch every time right now since that would (due to Git's nature) encompass code commits as well. 20180603 17:00:44<+discordbot5> because I don't think we're hardcoding current time or something somewhere 20180603 17:01:14<+discordbot5> And personally I think it'd be rather inconvenient for external packagers to update Wesnoth every week for a bunch of translations. 20180603 17:01:30<+discordbot5> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 20180603 17:01:30< Soliton> eh, why wouldn't you be able to tag whatever commit is current when you decide for a translation update? 20180603 17:01:56<+discordbot5> because.... then that includes non-translation-related commits... 20180603 17:02:34< Soliton> i didn't mean to now forget all the special case treatment of translation updates. 20180603 17:03:24< Soliton> you'd at least have some hint on what the current version with translation updates entails with such a tag. 20180603 17:03:47<+discordbot5> the current version is the latest version 20180603 17:03:56< Soliton> now it sounds like whatever the packager updated to when they got to doing the update. 20180603 17:04:37< Soliton> so you'd not even be sure people would have the same translations on different platforms on steam. 20180603 17:05:09<+discordbot5> loonycyborg handles Windows and Linux and hrubymar10 handles macOS. There are no more packagers or platforms for Steam. 20180603 17:05:27< Soliton> sure. 20180603 17:05:36<+discordbot5> Since they're both part of the project (and that's the only way it can be with Steam) presumably Vultraz makes sure they're both on the same page at all times. 20180603 17:06:07<+discordbot5> yes 20180603 17:06:31< Soliton> i'm not saying it's a big deal. it's just translations anyway. i'd still consider such a hint to have some kind of recollection of what's in an update. 20180603 17:06:41<+discordbot5> I'd be an idiot to tell one to update, wait a few days, and then tell the other to do so. 20180603 17:06:44<+discordbot5> or something 20180603 17:07:43<+discordbot5> I don't think such a thing is necessary 20180603 17:08:35<+discordbot5> Well, there's one thing. 20180603 17:09:05< Soliton> so if sinda wanted to push translations to ios or any other packager for some other platform do they have any chance to do that? (other than just doing updates whenever they feel like it.) 20180603 17:09:09<+discordbot5> You don't have the guarantee they'll both be able to push the update in time or that when they get to to do so they'll build from the exact same revision of the translation catalogues. 20180603 17:10:18< Soliton> i'd consider putting a translation tarball or whatever somewhere to have some proper basis for such updates. 20180603 17:10:21<+discordbot5> Sinda has unlimited discretion to release whatever he wants whenever he wants 20180603 17:10:45< Soliton> cool, excellent policy. 20180603 17:12:07< celticminstrel> The iOS port is technically a fork anyway, right? 20180603 17:12:15<+discordbot5> Both of those lines are extremely concerning for a third party by the way. 20180603 17:12:23<+discordbot5> I think it is 20180603 17:12:24<+discordbot5> I can't tell who is being sarcastic and who isn't. 20180603 17:12:25< celticminstrel> So he can't just build the tag. 20180603 17:12:55< celticminstrel> (Yes, unlimited discretion is not a good thing though.) 20180603 17:13:07< Soliton> i hope he is using the tag and adds whatever patches he has on top of that. 20180603 17:13:14< celticminstrel> Sure. 20180603 17:14:26< Soliton> would be nice to get to the point where he doesn't need to but nothing better he can do right now. 20180603 17:14:56<+discordbot5> I would prefer if we somehow managed any mobile forks though 20180603 17:15:01<+discordbot5> *merged 20180603 17:15:28< celticminstrel> Indeed. 20180603 17:15:35<+discordbot5> We never got his patches merged 20180603 17:15:40< Soliton> we need to get to a point where we accept the code necessary for this. 20180603 17:15:48< celticminstrel> We should at least merge that touch patch as it can be applicable even to non-mobile. 20180603 17:17:05<+discordbot5> Merge it against 1.14 and 1.14 has a feature master doesn’t 20180603 17:17:13<+discordbot5> Merge it against master and it’s hard to back port 20180603 17:17:44< Soliton> so merge it to both. 20180603 17:18:44< celticminstrel> I don't think I'd recommend merging it to 1.14 though, it's the sort of thing that's very likely to introduce regressions isn't it? 20180603 17:19:03< celticminstrel> I think you're probably exaggerating the difficulty of backporting, too. 20180603 17:19:13< celticminstrel> Though it obviously depends on the thing being backported. 20180603 17:19:34< celticminstrel> Still... you did say that most of the engine bugs seem to have been squashed in 1.14 by now, didn't you? 20180603 17:19:39< Soliton> if it's what's currently used on ios anyway it would be good to get nearer to that. but sure would need to assess the risks for other platforms. 20180603 17:19:58< celticminstrel> So I think it's probably okay to merge it to master after 1.14.3 or .4. 20180603 17:20:05<+discordbot5> I think I read sinda say the other day that his concern is that his code is mergeable on 1.14 but not master. 20180603 17:20:20< celticminstrel> Okay that could be a problem then... 20180603 17:20:49<+discordbot5> (master's rendering engine has diverged from 1.14 a lot (and GUI2 has as well to a smaller extent I believe) and I assume iOS touches that code.) 20180603 17:21:11<+discordbot5> (not to mention master is unusable as it is right now.) 20180603 17:22:28< Soliton> how can one see the diff to the ios changes? those are on github as well, right? 20180603 17:22:55<+discordbot5> Yes 20180603 17:25:20-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20180603 17:27:39<+discordbot5> Where, though? 20180603 17:28:36<+discordbot5> Is it just https://github.com/singalen/wesnoth ? It's hard to tell because I only came upon this from finding the bug tracker link in the Technical Support subsection for iOS. 20180603 17:30:26< Soliton> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/compare/1.14...singalen:master is that the diff? 20180603 17:30:45< Soliton> hmm no, doesn't seem like it. 20180603 17:30:48<+discordbot5> Uhhhhhh 20180603 17:30:54<+discordbot5> No... not that 20180603 17:31:21<+discordbot5> I honestly can’t remember 20180603 17:31:24<+discordbot5> There's a 1.14 branch in the fork (and a 1.14-2782 branch, whatever that means). 20180603 17:31:38< Soliton> yeah but not much different there. 20180603 17:31:54< celticminstrel> Maybe 2782 is an issue number? 20180603 17:32:39<+discordbot5> I think it's this https://github.com/singalen/wesnoth_ios 20180603 17:32:42<+discordbot5> Hm, indeed it only says 1 commit ahead and 512 commits behind. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/compare/1.14...singalen:1.14 20180603 17:32:47<+discordbot5> maybe? 20180603 17:33:00<+discordbot5> no 20180603 17:33:10<+discordbot5> I don't know 20180603 17:33:15<+discordbot5> You're kind of supposed to know that instead of us but okay. 20180603 17:33:17< Soliton> perhaps https://github.com/singalen/wesnoth/compare/1.14...wesnoth:1.14 but that doesn't load for me. 20180603 17:34:11<+discordbot5> (The reason here not being that you're the release manager, but rather that you're part of the company that controls this port.) 20180603 17:34:12<+discordbot5> @sinda where are your iOS sources? 20180603 17:38:26-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-110-89.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 17:42:46-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 17:59:01<+discordbot5> makes mental note to improve filtering options in the lobby before 1.14.3 20180603 18:01:22<+discordbot5> going to move the toggles to a dropdown so I can add more without worrying about space 20180603 18:15:20<+discordbot5> Current branch: https://github.com/singalen/wesnoth/tree/touch_interface_5_on_1_14_2 20180603 18:15:49<+discordbot5> Project file and dependencies: https://github.com/singalen/wesnoth_ios 20180603 18:16:17< Soliton> so this is the diff then, right? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/compare/1.14...singalen:touch_interface_5_on_1_14_2 20180603 18:18:32<+discordbot5> Yes. 20180603 18:26:30< irker690> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Nils Kneuper 4c4e15aeb5 updated French translation AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 18:27:55<+discordbot5> Is there anything there I can help with? 20180603 18:28:08< Soliton> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/57042e2026c749cae51ed89b021a23ac0f5d7edd surely this can just go into wesnoth proper? 20180603 18:28:59< Soliton> just looking for easy things to sync to your ios version more. 20180603 18:35:56<+discordbot5> Definitely it can. It's just only iOS has a "Next Unit" button on the screen, so I didn't feel the immediate need to PR this one. 20180603 18:36:43<+discordbot5> I still have the hope to merge it all (or, at least, half of it) eventually, and stop rebasing with each release 😄 20180603 18:36:49< Soliton> sure, not complainging or anything but we should work towards getting ios more in sync. 20180603 18:37:18<+discordbot5> I'm totally with you on that goal 😃 20180603 18:37:32< Soliton> right, so IMO it's a good idea to try to reduce that diff step-by-step where possible. 20180603 18:39:08< Soliton> btw, the copy files thing did not keep the modification date. if we want to keep that code for some future releases it'd be nice to fix that. (i know you marked it as a hack) 20180603 18:42:09<+discordbot5> That was a one-shot hack - to move saves between 1.13 and 1.14. We can live with that. iOS users, unlike PC, cannot move saves by hand. 20180603 18:42:13-!- irker690 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180603 18:43:18<+discordbot5> Touch controls and double-tap could go into mainline as well. There exist touchscreen laptops, so all versions could benefit from them. If 1.14 could accept that, I would make a PR to 1.14 and master. 20180603 18:44:25< Soliton> sounds like a good idea to me. personally i couldn't even test it though. 20180603 18:45:47< Soliton> this list of commits is hugely better than what we had before with code dumps either way so good job on that! 20180603 18:48:36<+discordbot5> Thanks 😃 20180603 18:50:32< Soliton> stuff like the .gitignore commit is something you can just push IMO. that's trivial not even worth a PR or anything. 20180603 18:51:19<+discordbot5> I don't have a commit permission to the mainline, I'm afraid. 20180603 18:52:17< Soliton> oh, ok. that seems like something that should be rectified... 20180603 18:52:19<+discordbot5> If the team agrees it's a good time to start merging portions of iOS into mainline, I can start making small PRs. 20180603 18:53:24<+discordbot5> as small as I can make them - touch controls support, for example, is not too small, and can't be really split further. 20180603 18:53:37< Soliton> yeah, i can imagine. 20180603 18:54:35<+discordbot5> I think we should also make a repo for the project file under the wesnoth org 20180603 18:54:50< Soliton> well, IMO now might be the best time in a while to get at least simple things or stuff that is behind an ios #ifdef into 1.14. 20180603 18:55:11< Soliton> after all it's what's live on ios anyway. 20180603 18:56:09< Soliton> i agree with Vultraz though ideally we won't need a separate repo at all. but that might be a while... 20180603 18:56:52<+discordbot5> @Vultraz OK. It includes the sources of iOS dependencies, is it OK? It will increase the repo size by a couple of hundreds megs. Or we can make it a git submodule. 20180603 18:57:28<+discordbot5> If it’s its own repo it wouldn’t do that 20180603 18:57:41< Soliton> now you're talking about wesnoth_ios, right? 20180603 18:57:50<+discordbot5> Yes 20180603 18:58:11<+discordbot5> It’s a fork of a fork right now 20180603 18:59:44< Soliton> should go under projectfiles at some point but that seems way off currently. so a separate repo seems fine. 20180603 19:01:40<+discordbot5> No, not under projectfiles 20180603 19:02:02<+discordbot5> Those are IDE files for building 20180603 19:02:30<+discordbot5> As far as I can see the wesnoth_ios repo has more than just an XCode file 20180603 19:02:48< Soliton> well, IDE or not i'm assuming that's what the ios repo contains as well. 20180603 19:02:58< celticminstrel> The project file though could go under projectfiles. 20180603 19:03:01<+discordbot5> Yep, it's XCode project and its dependencies. 20180603 19:03:07< celticminstrel> Dependencies shouldn't, yeah. 20180603 19:03:31< Soliton> sure, the dependencies shouldn't be in there at all that's why i said it seems way off to fix that now. 20180603 19:05:52<+discordbot5> @sinda I sent you an invite to the wesnoth org on GH. Dunno why I didn't before... 20180603 19:05:58<+discordbot5> Thanks! 20180603 19:07:22<+discordbot5> That's the way I inherited the project. It could use a lot of cleaning. First step would be to move XCode project files to main repo, and only leave dependencies is wesnoth_ios. Rename the latter as well to wesnoth_ios_deps or something. 20180603 19:08:01< Soliton> sounds good. 20180603 19:08:26<+discordbot5> Is there any way to get the deps without having them in a repo? 20180603 19:08:30<+discordbot5> I know celmin objects to dep repos.. 20180603 19:09:09-!- irker567 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 19:09:09< irker567> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master ba6afa4d1706 / src/server/ (player.cpp player.hpp server.cpp server.hpp): add player_version mp command https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ba6afa4d1706a30c067a15ab26c1ab3b9ef5b87b 20180603 19:09:09< irker567> wesnoth: gfgtdf wesnoth:master 0853b2718d13 / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): rename mp command player_version to version https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0853b2718d1344449a23ae68252330d457f29f3a 20180603 19:09:10< irker567> wesnoth: Gunter Labes wesnoth:master 0362e36305ed / src/server/server.cpp: check for empty parameters before looping over all players https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0362e36305eda584d16fb89de40f9314278316e0 20180603 19:12:29<+discordbot5> @sinda if you do a PR for the XCode file in the main repo that can go in right away no prob. 20180603 19:12:46<+discordbot5> or commit it yoursel,f, actually, since you now have access 20180603 19:12:51<+discordbot5> 👍 20180603 19:21:50-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-221-92-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 19:21:51< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#18466 (master - 0362e36 : Gunter Labes): The build was broken. 20180603 19:21:51< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/387483750 20180603 19:21:51-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-221-92-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180603 19:22:41-!- DeFender [~DeFender1@89-138-13-24.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 19:23:04-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 19:24:25-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@89-138-79-9.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180603 19:36:18<+discordbot5> @Vultraz can we look at making the tutorial a little easier 20180603 19:36:47<+discordbot5> right now the human side gets 123 gold in part 2, and the ai gets 150 20180603 19:37:05<+discordbot5> for new players, it might be worth giving them more gold than the ai, rather than less 20180603 19:37:05<+discordbot5> Unfortunately, if it was easier, then the actual campaigns might be too hard... 20180603 19:38:09<+discordbot5> this is true, however, I don't think the tutorial in itself should be that challenging 20180603 19:38:37<+discordbot5> since it should be about introducing you to basics of the game, e.g. how the gameplay works, and only rudimentary strategy 20180603 19:38:50<+discordbot5> the novice campaigns can then teach players slightly more advanced strategy 20180603 19:39:11<+discordbot5> should i drop it to like..120? 20180603 19:39:21< celticminstrel> @Vultraz, FTR, Sinda's version of a deps repo includes the source code of the deps, so that might not be quite as bad? 20180603 19:39:32<+discordbot5> yeah, just a slight touch to enemy/human side gold 20180603 19:39:40<+discordbot5> even gold should be fine 20180603 19:39:52< celticminstrel> Still better not to, but... 20180603 19:40:07<+discordbot5> I had to restart it like 3 times when I played it, if that's some indication (also, one time was just bad luck) 20180603 19:40:49<+discordbot5> I also needed multiple attempts in the tutorial. 20180603 19:41:09< celticminstrel> I don't remember having to restart when I played it. 20180603 19:41:14< celticminstrel> But it was a long time ago (1.10) so... 20180603 19:41:34< celticminstrel> Who knows! 20180603 19:41:51< irker567> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:1.14 ff763d1bb787 / changelog.md data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: Tutorial S2: made enemy starting gold equal to that of the player https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ff763d1bb78768b90e1aee0109a5dbcf38318d30 20180603 19:42:37<+discordbot5> The tutorial should be beatable on the first attempt by the noobiest of noobs. 20180603 19:42:53< irker567> wesnoth: Charles Dang wesnoth:master c7a06939abcc / changelog.md data/campaigns/tutorial/scenarios/02_Tutorial_part_2.cfg: Tutorial S2: made enemy starting gold equal to that of the player https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/c7a06939abcc44a9f6d20d5e974ef4dc87b3e34d 20180603 19:43:19<+discordbot5> In fact it should be impossible to lose unless you really go out of your way to do so. 20180603 19:43:25<+discordbot5> 150 -> 123. 20180603 19:43:36<+discordbot5> eh, I'm making the argument that the player shoul dhave the same gold as the ai 20180603 19:43:51<+discordbot5> because you need to at least be able to defeat the ai on an even playing field 20180603 19:44:10<+discordbot5> Basically the tutorial should teach the player that units are disposable and also how to use them correctly, but it shouldn't teach the player to ragequit. 20180603 19:44:21<+discordbot5> The novice campaigns can take care of that part 20180603 19:47:51<+discordbot5> Well, it's not hard to win if you now aht you're doing, but the 2nd scenario is a good step up from the first one if I remember correctly (it's been a few months since I did it) 20180603 19:48:25<+discordbot5> BAsically the first one is "okay, this is how you move, this is how you attack, okay, that's the basics, just win" 20180603 19:48:40<+discordbot5> And the second one introcudes all tactical elements at once 20180603 19:49:19< irker567> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 loonycyborg b7753edd9d pot-update and regenerate doc files AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 19:53:37-!- irker567 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180603 20:00:24< gfg> I don't think that any of us is able to tell whether the tutorial is really good from a new players point of view, we just know this game way to well. 20180603 20:01:44< gfg> I'd really appreciate the opinion of someone unrelated, ideally someone who has no idea what "turn based strategy" means. 20180603 20:02:08<+discordbot5> I think it hasn't been changed much (apart from the enemy gold reduction just now) after winter 2015-2016. 20180603 20:02:17<+discordbot5> That's when I played the tutorial. 20180603 20:02:35<+discordbot5> I had no earlier Wesnoth experience, but I had played TBS games before. 20180603 20:03:29<+discordbot5> (Thus, if the target indeed is that anyone can pass the tutorial in the first attempt, the difficulty level is an utter failure.) 20180603 20:09:10< vn971> Seems natural to expect the players to win if they at least have read everything we've written then. 20180603 20:09:56< vn971> A long-time player losing a tutorial should be impossible for sure (math guys, don't get to me about 0.0001%). 20180603 20:30:40<+discordbot5> tutorial teaches you to go back in time when you fuk up every turn 20180603 20:37:29<+discordbot5> (except, it doesn't teach you that) 20180603 20:38:36<+discordbot5> What shall change? How may a good tutorial look like? I thought the tutorial is good, but I am one of the people who read the wall of text which explains all things and tells you what to do, and also know the game too well to fairly judge. 20180603 20:39:56<+discordbot5> I see no problem with someone writing a new tutorial from scratch. This one has been here for very long (I don't mean to imply that this is bad, but nothing wrong with sth. new) 20180603 20:40:11<+discordbot5> (The first scenario could eventually stay I guess) 20180603 20:41:27<+discordbot5> I think this topic would go under here and is better discussed in the forums, anyone up to start a thread? 20180603 20:44:37< Soliton> as pointed out in #wesnoth the comment about the island being key is not the best advice for new players. better to stay back and defend on your side of the river. 20180603 20:45:16< Soliton> i don't think the whole tutorial needs to be rewritten because of that. just some tweaks to the dialog. 20180603 20:45:52< Soliton> unfortunately there is already a lot to read as it is... not sure if there is a way around that though. 20180603 20:46:45< Soliton> perhaps it could helpful to include a replay on how to beat the second scenario so you could just watch how it can be done and learn from that. 20180603 20:48:30< Soliton> of course need to take some care that the replay is not too lucky and shows some crucial bad luck and how to deal with it anyway. 20180603 21:00:21< zookeeper> i think the tutorial is way too scripted, requiring/expecting players to make specific moves instead of adapting to what the player actually does. 20180603 21:00:40< zookeeper> needless to say, making it more dynamic is quite a design challenge. 20180603 21:01:11< celticminstrel> Isn't that problem only in the first scenario though? 20180603 21:03:35< Soliton> a replay would also help with languages that are not translated yet. 20180603 21:03:37-!- fabi [~fabi@i577BCD05.versanet.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 21:03:37-!- fabi [~fabi@i577BCD05.versanet.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180603 21:03:37-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 21:07:15< zookeeper> celticminstrel, not entirely. 20180603 21:08:13< zookeeper> anyway, for what it's worth: i just moved li'sar a bit south so the grunt could attack her, and the grunt did so. the dialogue kept talking about the bridge and island. looks like the grunt wasn't supposed to be able to move. 20180603 21:08:45< zookeeper> now it tells me to occupy the village on the island this turn, even though i can't 20180603 21:10:20< zookeeper> and when i move+attacked an enemy from water, i was told to get back and that i can undo most moves, even though naturally the attack proceeded as usual. 20180603 21:14:06-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 21:15:53-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20180603 21:20:41< Soliton> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-03/microsoft-is-said-to-have-agreed-to-acquire-coding-site-github 20180603 21:27:07-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 21:28:08< celticminstrel> I thought you used to be able to undo attacks. 20180603 21:30:36<+discordbot5> attacks not, as that would allow you to undo and redo them until the luck is in your favor 20180603 21:33:20< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:41:22] I don't fully understand the actual technical steps required to push a release to Steam. The docs are messy. But I do know once it's set up (as it is for loony and hrubymar), it's just a matter of a few commands and a few minutes. Pretty sure there's no packaging, no installers to create, and there's no uploading to sourceforge, no checksums to upload to f.wo, no tags for me to create, no 20180603 21:33:22< Ivanovic> release announcements to write, no wik 20180603 21:33:23< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:41:22] and front pages to update... 20180603 21:33:25< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:41:35] The release process is more than just the building of packages. 20180603 21:33:26< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:42:00] that is pretty much the same for other platforms as well. 20180603 21:33:28< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:42:12] You're making no sense 20180603 21:33:29< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:42:31] as i said the issue seems to be to do proper releases nothing specific to steam. 20180603 21:33:31< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:43:07] Steam updates are not the same as a new numbered release 20180603 21:33:32< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:43:09] 😐 20180603 21:33:34< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:43:38] s/Steam// 20180603 21:33:35< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:13] The plan is for Steam players to get translation updates BETWEEN the regular releases 20180603 21:33:37< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:15] you can as well put unreleased versions in the debian packager or anywhere else. 20180603 21:33:38< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:17] How hard is that to understand 20180603 21:33:40< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:32] it is hard to understand why steam is a special case. 20180603 21:33:41< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:48] It's not special 20180603 21:33:43< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:53] Because it's easy to dispatch updates to and people don't download the whole all over and over! 20180603 21:33:44< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:44:55] I can do that with flatpak too 20180603 21:33:46< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:45:00] ^ 20180603 21:33:47< Ivanovic> [21:52:35] [18:45:21] does this mean you agree with loonycyborg? 20180603 21:33:49< Ivanovic> oh, sorry... 20180603 21:33:49-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-110-89.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20180603 21:34:31<+discordbot5> um 20180603 21:34:34<+discordbot5> ok? 20180603 21:35:06< Ivanovic> strange stuff happening with the paste buffer ending directly in the input line though just scrolling through the (long!) backlog... 20180603 21:35:26< loonycyborg> Ivanovic: did you see my ping about broken xml? 20180603 21:35:41< Ivanovic> @Vultraz: if you are pushing changes between releases, just make sure that there were no pot-updates since then 20180603 21:35:52<+discordbot5> yes 20180603 21:36:17< loonycyborg> you probably need to review my fix :P 20180603 21:38:27< Ivanovic> loonycyborg: if it did build correctly, then it is probably fine 20180603 21:38:30< Ravana_> wmlscope --crossreference --collisions --progress shows several cases where same core image exists under multiple names 20180603 21:38:51< Ravana_> makes it harder to find where addon adds that images 20180603 21:40:00< celticminstrel> [Jun 03@5:30:36pm] discordbot5: attacks not, as that would allow you to undo and redo them until the luck is in your favor 20180603 21:40:00< celticminstrel> I actually don't think this argument makes any sense. Disallowing undoing of attacks doesn't prevent anyone from undoing and redoing them until the luck is in their favour, it just makes it more difficult. 20180603 21:41:22-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:a0e8:f1bc:9bba:822b] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180603 21:47:49< zookeeper> celticminstrel, undo is something you're clearly supposed to use 20180603 21:48:11< zookeeper> and thus so would undoing of attacks 20180603 21:48:37< celticminstrel> I mean, you could totally make undo store the actual result of the attack so that redo then replays it exactly... though that wouldn't prevent undoing the attack and then making the same attack to get a different result (rather than using redo). 20180603 21:52:01< zookeeper> it's obvious to anyone that even though you can saveload, it's not the way the game is intended to be played. that would very much not be the case for undoing of attacks. 20180603 21:54:27< celticminstrel> Well in that case you might as well just remove undo? 20180603 21:54:49< celticminstrel> It doesn't even work for fixing a misclick, because you can't undo moves that revealed fog or shroud. 20180603 21:54:53< celticminstrel> Which is really dumb. 20180603 21:55:18< celticminstrel> Yeah sure it means you could figure out what's under shroud without technically revealing it by making a lot of moves and undoing them, but... 20180603 21:55:37< celticminstrel> By "it" I mean removing that restriction FTR. 20180603 21:56:05< celticminstrel> That said the real problem here is probably the ease of accidentally starting a move. 20180603 21:56:21< celticminstrel> But still... is undo really useful? 20180603 21:56:28< zookeeper> uh, what 20180603 21:56:31< celticminstrel> It complicates the WML logic too. 20180603 21:56:32< zookeeper> yes, undo is really useful 20180603 21:56:49< celticminstrel> And has all sorts of arbitrary restrictions on when you can do it. 20180603 21:57:01< Soliton> you can use "delayed shroud update" to be able to undo any move. 20180603 21:57:20< zookeeper> for me, the game would be for all intents and purposes unplayable without undo 20180603 21:57:28< celticminstrel> Then why isn't that enabled by default on any map with shroud? 20180603 21:57:35< Soliton> the "arbitrary" restriction is that you're not allowed to undo if you gained new info. 20180603 21:58:01< Soliton> you can also use planning mode to fix misclicks there. 20180603 21:58:02< celticminstrel> Right, or if something random occurred. 20180603 21:59:38< zookeeper> that's why it's dumb to trigger random stuff in moveto events if there's alternatives 20180603 22:02:15< celticminstrel> ...how is that dumb and what kind of alternatives could there be? 20180603 22:03:00< zookeeper> clarification: i thought you referred to (mostly) moveto events. so did i. if you did not, then nevermind. 20180603 22:04:41< celticminstrel> Well the comment about complicating the WML logic was about events, yes (and mostly moveto, yes). 20180603 22:06:57-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 22:08:08< zookeeper> it's dumb because it unnecessarily prevents undo, and often new/side/etc turn events are a pretty good alternative in some cases: just trigger the thing later, not immediately. 20180603 22:08:49< celticminstrel> I can't think of anything I'd do in moveto that could just as easily be done on side turn. 20180603 22:09:55-!- gfg [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 22:10:52< zookeeper> oh, and naturally sighted events in shroud/fog, but that goes without saying. 20180603 22:12:11<+discordbot5> ...I don't really know how to avoid them... 20180603 22:13:22-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 22:13:47-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 22:14:25-!- gfg [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180603 22:19:28-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Converse confortabelmente. En calquera parte.] 20180603 22:20:38-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180603 22:25:39-!- irker823 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180603 22:25:39< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Charles Dang c7a06939ab Tutorial S2: made enemy starting gold eq AppVeyor: vs2017/Release Failed 20180603 22:25:40< irker823> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-3415 20180603 22:28:56<+discordbot5> gfgtdf: The wiki still only talks about helper.set_wml_tag_metatable and not the thing that's purportedly replacing it in the future. 20180603 22:29:14<+discordbot5> (Or celticminstrel or whoever.) 20180603 22:29:35< celticminstrel> ...right. 20180603 22:31:30< celticminstrel> I should get to work on that. 20180603 22:47:32< celticminstrel> I should've included an n argument in the wml.remove_child function... :/ 20180603 23:03:06< celticminstrel> Either that, or added an id argument and also a remove_nth_child(). 20180603 23:03:11< celticminstrel> Oh well! 20180603 23:04:21< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Gunter Labes f1bf186c87 check for empty parameters before loopin AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180603 23:15:52< celticminstrel> What is this wesnoth.message I keep seeing in these examples... 20180603 23:30:41-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180603 23:40:36< celticminstrel> There we go, now someone just has to link to it from someplace appropriate: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAPI/wml 20180603 23:40:58< celticminstrel> It's already linked from LuaAPI, but that page is still kinda incomplete. 20180603 23:41:09< celticminstrel> Maybe. 20180603 23:48:01< Ravana_> LuaAPI though is not linked from any page 20180603 23:48:33< celticminstrel> I know. 20180603 23:48:56< celticminstrel> The idea was to eventually have LuaWML just describe the [lua] tag while LuaAPI describes the Lua functions and stuff. --- Log closed Mon Jun 04 00:00:51 2018