--- Log opened Mon Jun 04 00:00:51 2018 20180604 00:04:06< celticminstrel> Anyway at least there's a place to link people asking about the wml module. 20180604 00:11:20-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 00:11:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 00:12:46-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180604 00:24:55< irker823> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:1.14 d1a288b46ddb / po/ (24 files in 24 dirs): updated German translation: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d1a288b46ddb5d9d1bf1b0fd0ebbc9265c468fd5 20180604 00:42:29-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 00:43:39< irker823> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:1.14 1bf8451d19fe / po/ (wesnoth-manpages/de.po wesnoth-multiplayer/de.po): updated German translation https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1bf8451d19feeefde35588e51f542fd032dba1cb 20180604 00:45:31< irker823> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 4b7a6a98eccc / data/core/editor/help.cfg: remove a duplicated space in a translatable string https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4b7a6a98eccc07fd762ec29bcf1cd1ea84636992 20180604 01:43:59< celticminstrel> ...oh great, apparently Microsoft is acquiring GitHub. :| Given what happened since they acquired Skype, I can't feel very optimistic about this at all. 20180604 01:46:16<+discordbot5> what do you mean? 20180604 01:46:21<+discordbot5> Skype's fine 20180604 01:48:57< celticminstrel> It's fine, sure. 20180604 01:49:20< celticminstrel> But it's worse than before Microsoft acquired it and turned it into adware. 20180604 01:49:58<+discordbot5> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259976436490829825/453012507246723084/sk.png 20180604 01:50:11< celticminstrel> ??? 20180604 01:50:15<+discordbot5> since a recent update that happened 20180604 01:50:19< celticminstrel> The weird icon? 20180604 01:50:23<+discordbot5> yes 20180604 01:50:27< celticminstrel> Huh. 20180604 01:52:50-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20180604 02:16:53<+discordbot5> There's one thing in GH's favour: MS actually uses it. 20180604 02:17:09<+discordbot5> That's in the company's favour. 20180604 02:17:18<+discordbot5> Not the community's. 20180604 02:17:39< celticminstrel> Yeah... 20180604 02:17:51 * celticminstrel is wondering if Travis can work with things like GitLab. 20180604 02:24:59< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Charles Dang ff763d1bb7 Tutorial S2: made enemy starting gold eq AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 02:26:40<+discordbot5> looks like it doesn't 20180604 02:26:41<+discordbot5> https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-ci/issues/5931#issuecomment-231887762 20180604 02:27:12<+discordbot5> gitlab apparently has its own ci service 20180604 02:28:15< celticminstrel> ...huh. 20180604 02:28:32< celticminstrel> But I did say "things like GitLab". 20180604 02:32:04<+discordbot5> given that travis was said to be pretty deeply integrated with github, I'd assume it'd apply to any of them 20180604 02:32:30< celticminstrel> Ah... 20180604 02:33:21<+discordbot5> adware? 20180604 02:33:22<+discordbot5> what ads 20180604 02:33:26<+discordbot5> I haven't seen ads 20180604 02:33:29< celticminstrel> ..................... 20180604 02:34:04<+discordbot5> Celmin. The dots. 20180604 02:34:07<+discordbot5> Dunno about skype, but outlook at where I work updated and now it has a Bing ad when composing new emails 20180604 02:34:20<+discordbot5> probably stuff like that 20180604 02:34:37<+discordbot5> huh 20180604 02:34:44<+discordbot5> Outlook does have ads. 20180604 02:34:58< celticminstrel> I only managed to get rid of the ads in Skype by hacking the configuration file. 20180604 02:35:02<+discordbot5> Vultraz is most certainly using an ad blocker. 20180604 02:35:08<+discordbot5> no? 20180604 02:35:15<+discordbot5> I only have an adblocker in chrome 20180604 02:35:24<+discordbot5> maybe the windows 10 version just doesn't have ads 20180604 02:35:26< celticminstrel> Though at some point Skype stopped working altogether for some reason. 20180604 02:35:34< celticminstrel> (This was on Windows 10 FTR.) 20180604 02:35:47<+discordbot5> "Windows 10 version" 20180604 02:36:03<+discordbot5> i assume you did not have the new UWP app 20180604 02:36:05<+discordbot5> Can't you just call it what it is? 20180604 02:36:13<+discordbot5> It's the Mail app. 20180604 02:36:21< celticminstrel> UWP? 20180604 02:36:22<+discordbot5> what? 20180604 02:36:27<+discordbot5> I don;t use the mail app 20180604 02:36:32<+discordbot5> we're talking about skype 20180604 02:36:42<+discordbot5> I was talking about Outlook. 20180604 02:37:01<+discordbot5> I literally said "Outlook". 20180604 02:37:03<+discordbot5> celmin: Universal Windows Playform 20180604 02:37:06<+discordbot5> platform 20180604 02:37:18< celticminstrel> UWP can go die in a fire. 20180604 02:37:25<+discordbot5> 🙄 20180604 02:37:28<+discordbot5> Crummy name for a crummy framework. 20180604 02:37:40<+discordbot5> ya'll need WinJesus. 20180604 02:37:46<+discordbot5> no 20180604 02:37:48<+discordbot5> >.> 20180604 02:37:57<+discordbot5> You can see how far it's got them now that MS has all but given up on Windows for mobile. 20180604 02:38:05< celticminstrel> TBH Win10 can too. I'm pretty sure it's the worst OS I've ever used. 20180604 02:38:19<+discordbot5> then go buy a new mac 20180604 02:38:31< celticminstrel> I plan to. Hopefully next year, just waiting for the announcement. 20180604 02:38:44<+discordbot5> Also Jesus and Microsoft products don't belong in the same line. 20180604 02:39:00<+discordbot5> He wouldn't condone the stunts MS pulls off all the time. 20180604 02:39:27<+discordbot5> Especially after what happened to him. 20180604 02:40:15<+discordbot5> That's exactly how Microsoft works. It uses people (including you) as long as they are of use to them. 20180604 02:41:00<+discordbot5> That's why they stuffed Windows 8 and later with all the glorified adware and spyware infrastructure they have. 20180604 02:41:31< celticminstrel> Yeah exactly, Win10 itself is adware which is probably a good part of why it's terrible (though far from the only reason). 20180604 02:41:51<+discordbot5> fun how i joined to read about this from you and its exactly what you are talking about :thonk: 20180604 02:42:19<+discordbot5> Of course the common user doesn't understand and doesn't give a crap as long as things (poorly) work without having to learn a different thing (Linux) or investing on absurdly expensive hardware (Mac). 20180604 02:43:16< celticminstrel> (BTW what was that emoji Vultraz used? I'm only seeing a box.) 20180604 02:43:18<+discordbot5> Yeah the other half of the reason is using regular users as a glorified QA lab. 20180604 02:43:28< celticminstrel> Yeah that's probably a part of it too.3 20180604 02:43:31<+discordbot5> Rolling eyes. 20180604 02:43:34< celticminstrel> Ah. 20180604 02:44:15<+discordbot5> Is migrating the Wesnoth source to gitlab something that the dev team would consider? 20180604 02:44:24<+discordbot5> No 20180604 02:44:26<+discordbot5> Yes. 20180604 02:44:30< celticminstrel> XD 20180604 02:44:31<+discordbot5> Yes. 20180604 02:44:37<+discordbot5> 🙄 20180604 02:44:37<+discordbot5> :thonk: 20180604 02:44:37< celticminstrel> I'd go with "yes" too. 20180604 02:44:50<+discordbot5> why tho 20180604 02:45:03< celticminstrel> After all, they already migrated from SourceForge to GitHub, there's on reason to rule out migrating again in the future. 20180604 02:45:12<+discordbot5> It'd be migrating off travis as well 20180604 02:45:17< celticminstrel> Whoops, my "no" turned into "on". 20180604 02:45:32<+discordbot5> I mean, yes i know Microsoft is scummy about open source and likes it because they benefit from that even when they have tried to stop it 20180604 02:45:43<+discordbot5> Aka halloween documents 20180604 02:45:44<+discordbot5> From the moment we set foot on GH we decided that if GH stops being useful to us we can consider alternatives. 20180604 02:46:08<+discordbot5> It's not going to happen just for the sake of it though. There has to be a good reason. 20180604 02:46:11<+discordbot5> It has not stopped being useful. 20180604 02:46:19<+discordbot5> It may. 20180604 02:46:22< celticminstrel> This isn't a suggestion, but I wonder, would migrating to eg mercurial also be an option? 20180604 02:46:31<+discordbot5> Ew no. 20180604 02:46:34< celticminstrel> (I'm used to git by now so I probably wouldn't want to do that, but.) 20180604 02:46:51< celticminstrel> Mercurial was just an example though, I mean any other CVS software. 20180604 02:46:51<+discordbot5> Mercurial is a downgrade compared to Git. 20180604 02:47:05<+discordbot5> VCS. 20180604 02:47:10< celticminstrel> Right, VCS. 20180604 02:47:14< celticminstrel> CVS is a specific one. 20180604 02:47:22<+discordbot5> CVS is actually the VCS we started out with yeah. 20180604 02:47:35< celticminstrel> Huh, really? Then migrated to svn? 20180604 02:47:42<+discordbot5> Yep. 20180604 02:47:50<+discordbot5> That was before my time. 20180604 02:48:12<+discordbot5> It also used to be hosted on a different site instead of gna.org. 20180604 02:48:50<+discordbot5> (It ran the same platform though, GNU Savanne or so. ) 20180604 02:49:39<+discordbot5> Then we moved to Git on SF.net and to GH less than 2 months afterwards. 20180604 02:49:40<+discordbot5> so have you started migrating your personal repos shikadi? 20180604 02:49:48<+discordbot5> No. 20180604 02:49:50<+discordbot5> what? 20180604 02:50:13<+discordbot5> Not planning to do so either unless GH stops being useful to me. 20180604 02:50:30<+discordbot5> where would that question even come from. 20180604 02:50:45<+discordbot5> This is a case where I'd rather wait and watch than engage in mob panic. 20180604 02:50:52< celticminstrel> I've contemplated doing so, but not gonna to it right away, probably. 20180604 02:51:01<+discordbot5> Also do you know me from somewhere else? 20180604 02:51:16<+discordbot5> at least we're being sensible here 20180604 02:51:25<+discordbot5> it comes from Saramba 20180604 02:51:28< celticminstrel> Argh I missed "do" in that sentence... 20180604 02:51:38<+discordbot5> He asks because hes a curious man 20180604 02:51:44<+discordbot5> it would be a shame if we went around saying "we can't use github because microsoft owns it" 20180604 02:52:25< celticminstrel> I mean, Microsoft owning it is a pretty big turn-off; I probably wouldn't've started using it if Microsoft owned it. But on the other hand, that by itself isn't enough to drive me off when I'm already using it. 20180604 02:53:19<+discordbot5> 🙄 x10 combo 20180604 02:53:27< celticminstrel> Is that eyeroll again. 20180604 02:53:41<+discordbot5> it was 20180604 02:54:28<+discordbot5> haha you dont have emojis on there? 20180604 02:54:36< celticminstrel> I do have emojis. 20180604 02:54:40< celticminstrel> I just don't have the full set. 20180604 02:54:54<+discordbot5> do you have the most important of all 20180604 02:54:58<+discordbot5> 💩 20180604 02:55:16<+discordbot5> 🤦 20180604 02:55:25< celticminstrel> Apparently I do have that one (but not whatever Sevu used). 20180604 02:55:31<+discordbot5> You didn't answer my question Saramba :p 20180604 02:55:37<+discordbot5> wich one 20180604 02:55:38< celticminstrel> I noticed that too. 20180604 02:55:46<+discordbot5> sevu's was a weird looking facepalm 20180604 02:55:48<+discordbot5> SUSPICIOUS :thonk: 20180604 02:55:54<+discordbot5> I asked you if you knew me from somewhere else. 20180604 02:55:55<+discordbot5> oh i just read 20180604 02:55:58<+discordbot5> yes 20180604 02:56:13<+discordbot5> I joined one of your twitch streams one 20180604 02:56:33< celticminstrel> I really want to know what this line meant though: 20180604 02:56:38<+discordbot5> and i follow you on twitter 20180604 02:56:43< celticminstrel> [Jun 03@10:51:39pm] discordbot5: He asks because hes a curious man 20180604 02:56:45<+discordbot5> You probably mean one of the streams I mod but okay. 20180604 02:56:56<+discordbot5> and i know where you live and what you are wearing rn 20180604 02:57:03<+discordbot5> ..... 20180604 02:57:03< celticminstrel> Creepy. 20180604 02:57:06<+discordbot5> uh... 20180604 02:57:28<+discordbot5> Yay? 20180604 02:57:35<+discordbot5> and your personal repos are one github 20180604 02:57:47<+discordbot5> STILL 20180604 02:57:51<+discordbot5> celmin: referring to himself in the third person 20180604 02:57:53<+discordbot5> Half of them. 20180604 02:58:04<+discordbot5> The other half is somewhere else and is private. 20180604 02:58:18< celticminstrel> Hm, I guess I could see that... 20180604 02:58:31<+discordbot5> The great thing about Git is that you can easily move stuff around. 20180604 02:58:44<+discordbot5> tell GitLab about that 20180604 02:58:47< celticminstrel> True, if GitHub suddenly died, literally nothing would be lost. 20180604 02:58:55< celticminstrel> What's this about GitLab? 20180604 02:59:00<+discordbot5> As long as GH doesn't decide to drop the issues API. 20180604 02:59:07<+discordbot5> those dudes put a migrate from github button on the home page lol 20180604 02:59:12< celticminstrel> Oh true, the issues would be lost. 20180604 02:59:16<+discordbot5> Or its API in general. 20180604 02:59:21< celticminstrel> Ah, yeah, I saw that button. 20180604 02:59:33< celticminstrel> It strikes me as bizarrely specific actually. 20180604 02:59:55< celticminstrel> I mean, there are probably dozens of services similar to GitHub out there? I think I know of at least three, anyway. 20180604 03:00:08<+discordbot5> i've read they are getting ten times the normal traffic 20180604 03:00:13< celticminstrel> Not counting GitLab which IIUC is a bit different? 20180604 03:00:18<+discordbot5> Bitbucket also has an option to migrate repos from GH. 20180604 03:00:20<+discordbot5> i guess it makes sense 20180604 03:00:21< celticminstrel> Though their homepage is kinda vague. 20180604 03:00:34< celticminstrel> Yeah Bitbucket and SourceForge were the ones I was thinking of. 20180604 03:00:43< celticminstrel> And ISTR at least one other but I can't remember a name. 20180604 03:00:51< celticminstrel> BitBucket is owned by Atlassian, isn't it? 20180604 03:01:22< celticminstrel> Yup it is. 20180604 03:01:23<+discordbot5> Also bear in mind that Gnome moved/started (?) moving projects to GitLab just now I believe. 20180604 03:01:36<+discordbot5> (From selfhosted repos.) 20180604 03:01:42<+discordbot5> I know pango is 20180604 03:01:57<+discordbot5> I wonder why not GitHub 20180604 03:01:57< celticminstrel> What exactly is GitLab? Is it exactly the same as GitHub or...? 20180604 03:02:19<+discordbot5> It's probably hipster github 20180604 03:02:28<+discordbot5> @Vultraz If you knew where Gnome came from you'd know. 20180604 03:02:35< celticminstrel> There's stuff about "installing" GitLab which seems weird if it's literally just GitHub. 20180604 03:02:49< celticminstrel> But would make sense if, for example, it's a GitHub that you can install on your server. 20180604 03:02:58<+discordbot5> Also stop trying to render everything unimportant with stupid labels like "hipster". 20180604 03:03:06<+discordbot5> My impression is Gitlab is more enterprise oriented 20180604 03:03:10< celticminstrel> On the other hand it could just be talking about a client for connecting to GitLab. 20180604 03:03:17<+discordbot5> While GitHub is more social 20180604 03:03:32<+discordbot5> celmin: github has desktop clients too? 20180604 03:03:38< celticminstrel> True. 20180604 03:03:39<+discordbot5> GitLab's platform is open source unlike GH's. 20180604 03:03:43<+discordbot5> like, you have more specific authentication stuff on GitLab i think? 20180604 03:04:04< celticminstrel> But GitHub doesn't have an "install" button on its front page. 20180604 03:04:12<+discordbot5> true 20180604 03:04:19<+discordbot5> The fact that it is open source is the primary reason Gnome chose them. 20180604 03:04:28< celticminstrel> Makes sense. 20180604 03:04:30<+discordbot5> I figured. 20180604 03:04:38< celticminstrel> Gnome loves mediocrity after all. >_> 20180604 03:05:26<+discordbot5> For reference, Gnome started out as a GNU project when the only Free desktop environment was not actually such. (KDE 1 required Qt which at the time was non-free.) 20180604 03:06:06<+discordbot5> (KDE started out as a gratis alternative to CDE and other commercial Unix desktop environments.) 20180604 03:07:30<+discordbot5> I can hear Vultraz snoring in the background. 20180604 03:07:43< celticminstrel> XD 20180604 03:08:26<+discordbot5> im not even here anymore 20180604 03:08:58<+discordbot5> he 'died' of boredom 20180604 03:09:02< celticminstrel> That statement proves itself false though. 20180604 03:09:53<+discordbot5> Gnome did actually use to be an acronym but I don't remember what it stood for. 20180604 03:10:39<+discordbot5> "GNOME was originally an acronym for GNU Network Object Model Environment, but the acronym was dropped because it no longer reflected the vision of the GNOME project." 20180604 03:11:27<+discordbot5> It beats K Desktop Environment at least. 20180604 03:20:26<+discordbot5> Alright 20180604 03:20:32<+discordbot5> good discussion 20180604 03:20:37<+discordbot5> I sleep now 20180604 03:25:39< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Charles Dang c7a06939ab Tutorial S2: made enemy starting gold eq AppVeyor: 2/4 builds failed 20180604 03:25:40< irker823> Details vs2017/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-3415 20180604 03:25:41< irker823> Details vs2015/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-3700 20180604 03:38:23-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 03:43:03<+discordbot5> celticminstrel: Re wiki.w.o/LuaAPI, someone really ought to link it from LuaWML. 20180604 03:43:05<+discordbot5> I am close to unlocking Deep GUI2 Magicks... 20180604 03:43:21<+discordbot5> Or at the very least https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaAPI/wml while the rest gets sorted out. 20180604 03:43:28< celticminstrel> Yeah, probably... 20180604 03:43:35< celticminstrel> At the very least the latter. 20180604 03:44:15<+discordbot5> It's no good that a prominently advertised function (or more that I haven't stumbled upon) gives out a deprecation message that refers to an API whose documentation is part of a wiki dead end. 20180604 03:44:32<+discordbot5> (Meaning the page and all its parent pages aren't linked from the main pages.) 20180604 03:48:38< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner 4b7a6a98ec remove a duplicated space in a translata AppVeyor: vs2017/Release Failed 20180604 03:48:39< irker823> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-3419 20180604 03:55:04<+discordbot5> Also don't forget about that music bug. :3 20180604 03:55:09<+discordbot5> hi guys I have a nub question 20180604 03:55:24<+discordbot5> when will 1.14.3 release 20180604 03:55:31<+discordbot5> See above. 20180604 03:55:32< celticminstrel> In the future. 20180604 03:55:40<+discordbot5> The thingy at the top of this chat. 20180604 03:55:40<+discordbot5> LOL this weekend 20180604 03:55:51< celticminstrel> Aww okay. 20180604 03:55:53<+discordbot5> wtf it updates way faster than I used to know before 20180604 03:56:09< celticminstrel> That might be the last update for like a month though (depending on bug reports). 20180604 03:56:26< celticminstrel> (And fixes for previously-reported bugs). 20180604 03:56:33<+discordbot5> Because the team is doing its best to address reported issues as fast as possible. 20180604 03:56:38<+discordbot5> back when like maybe 6 years ago I thought the fucking game updates like maybe 2 month once 20180604 03:56:43<+discordbot5> That's to be expected when you go live on Steam. 20180604 03:56:50< celticminstrel> To put it another way, after a new stable release it's not abnormal for several minor releases to closely follow. 20180604 03:57:20<+discordbot5> Well, no, but the interval between 1.12.0 and 1.12.1 was almost 2 months. 20180604 03:57:40<+discordbot5> 1.12.1 and 1.12.2 had the next shortest interval I believe. 20180604 03:57:41<+discordbot5> really 20180604 03:57:43< celticminstrel> Oh okay. It's not like I actually paid attention back then. 20180604 03:57:49<+discordbot5> how many years have passed... 20180604 03:58:00<+discordbot5> Or at the very least 1.12.2's string-freeze and tag window was the smallest ever (3 days). 20180604 03:58:06<+discordbot5> lol 20180604 03:58:12<+discordbot5> now thats a fast update 20180604 03:58:27<+discordbot5> at this pace I think you guys gonna finish 1.14 within the year? 20180604 03:59:14< celticminstrel> Nah. 20180604 03:59:21< celticminstrel> I imagine it'll be a year or two before 1.16. 20180604 03:59:58< celticminstrel> Because there's major rendering overhauls coming, which need a lot of time to be completed and tested and stuff. 20180604 04:00:17< celticminstrel> Currently Wesnoth isn't really using any accelerated graphics, which is kinda silly on modern computers. 20180604 04:01:18<+discordbot5> about versions 20180604 04:01:23<+discordbot5> when will the game become 2.0 20180604 04:01:39<+discordbot5> Never. 20180604 04:01:43<+discordbot5> LOL 20180604 04:01:47<+discordbot5> really? 20180604 04:01:47<+discordbot5> It's more likely we'll jump straight to 16.0. 20180604 04:01:58<+discordbot5> why is 16.0... 20180604 04:02:01< celticminstrel> Personally I think 1.16 should become 2.0. 20180604 04:02:10< celticminstrel> But I dunno if anyone else will agree on that. 20180604 04:02:24< celticminstrel> And "why 1.16.0" --> just drop the 1. prefix 20180604 04:03:06<+discordbot5> If the OpenGL transition brings really major user-visible changes it might be warranted. 20180604 04:03:14< celticminstrel> Oh I misquoted, oh well. 20180604 04:03:17<+discordbot5> Otherwise it's no more of a technical upgrade than 1.14 over 1.12. 20180604 04:03:42< celticminstrel> But that's true, yeah. 20180604 04:03:54< celticminstrel> Mind you Vultraz did say he wanted to redesign the whole UI or something drastic like that... 20180604 04:04:08<+discordbot5> It'll have to be really impressive. 20180604 04:04:18<+discordbot5> Jaw-droppingly so, even. 20180604 04:16:25<+discordbot5> what are the nationality composition of the dev team? 20180604 04:17:15<+discordbot5> I mean like how many from US, how many from EU, and else 20180604 04:23:59< celticminstrel> Off the top of my head I can think of at least three from EU, one from US, one from... IIRC South America? And two from Canada. 20180604 04:24:10< celticminstrel> There are probably more from the US but I don't specifically know who. 20180604 04:25:02<+discordbot5> I hope that one from the US is me 20180604 04:25:08< celticminstrel> Yes. 20180604 04:25:40<+discordbot5> There are a few more from the EU if you consider Wesnoth.org staff active devs. 20180604 04:25:44< celticminstrel> Pretty sure there are also more from Europe, but again I don't specifically know who. 20180604 04:26:16<+discordbot5> Also I'm the only dev from SA as far as I know. 20180604 04:26:22< celticminstrel> "Where are you from?" is not a question that gets asked when you join. :P 20180604 04:26:40<+discordbot5> What is your quest 20180604 04:26:54< celticminstrel> ...quest? 20180604 04:27:07<+discordbot5> World domination. 20180604 04:27:15<+discordbot5> Followed by eradication of the human species. 20180604 04:27:16< celticminstrel> ... 20180604 04:27:22< celticminstrel> Well anyway. 20180604 04:27:30< celticminstrel> I sleep now. 20180604 04:28:12-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180604 04:28:33<+discordbot5> https://youtu.be/IMxWLuOFyZM 20180604 04:29:48-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 04:39:08-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180604 04:46:58-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 05:03:30<+discordbot5> why is it every time I try to refactor something I run up against design fails that prove difficult to fix 😦 20180604 05:04:10<+discordbot5> I dropped the event thing i was working on the other day since it was making the code more messy than it needed to be. 20180604 05:04:41<+discordbot5> now I figured I'd finish refactoring out the raw pointers during GUI2 widget initialization 20180604 05:04:56<+discordbot5> and somehow I've ended up expanding the listbox functionality 20180604 05:31:16-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Converse confortabelmente. En calquera parte.] 20180604 05:35:03<+discordbot5> That's completely normal in any software project. When you try to change something, you run into design limitations and need to consider fixing them as well. 20180604 05:35:27<+discordbot5> Developers can't see the future and immediately come up with a design that never needs to be changed later. 20180604 05:38:41< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Steve Cotton e9a2919dfe DiD S12: Alternative campaign finish by AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 06:23:25-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b5500a45c6936a9445785.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 06:23:25-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b5500a45c6936a9445785.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 06:23:25-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 06:25:18-!- gallaecio [~quassel@143.red-81-32-24.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 06:47:50-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 06:48:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 06:57:37-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 07:06:45< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Severin Glöckner 1bf8451d19 updated German translation AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 07:08:21-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 07:21:48-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 07:22:09-!- zookeeper_ [~lmsnie@192.130.252.48] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 07:26:32-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180604 07:27:44-!- zookeeper_ is now known as zookeeper 20180604 07:27:46-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@192.130.252.48] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 07:27:46-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 08:28:56<+discordbot5> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsoft-reportedly-buying-coding-site-github-2018-06-03?mod=industries_twitter_new&link=sfmw_tw 20180604 08:29:21<+discordbot5> don't know if relevant, but I guess it's used for this project, so I posted it 20180604 08:29:43<+discordbot5> Yeah we were talking about it earlier. 20180604 08:30:09<+discordbot5> We're not moving unless something concrete changes in a way that negatively impacts us. 20180604 08:37:20< vn971> I don't understand what money Microsoft must have been offering for GH to actually do this. Must be quite a lot to forget about any honesty or what it is to be github.. 20180604 08:37:40< vn971> Somebody should remind Github about Nokia and Stephen Elop. 20180604 08:37:57<+discordbot5> You seem to forget that GitHub is a company, not a charity. 20180604 08:38:25<+discordbot5> They have been operating at a loss, and are probably happy that they now have an owner with deep pockets. 20180604 08:38:47< vn971> jyrkive: with it's own inverstors, etc. True. But also, if the stock price will start to decline, you'll have to be quick about getting rid of your shares then. 20180604 08:42:52<+discordbot5> Investing isn't about reaction time. It's about predicting long-term changes. 20180604 08:43:14<+discordbot5> If you believe Microsoft's share price will decline in the future, sell your shares now, or even buy put options. 20180604 08:44:08< vn971> Iff MS aquires GH, there will be no more GH shares then, right? Only Microsoft ones? Or how does it work? 20180604 08:45:26<+discordbot5> GitHub isn't publicly traded, so regular people can't buy its shares anyway. 20180604 08:46:27<+discordbot5> After this acquisition, it will be possible to indirectly own a cut of GitHub through Microsoft. 20180604 08:48:40< irker823> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner 4b7a6a98ec remove a duplicated space in a translata AppVeyor: 2/4 builds failed 20180604 08:48:41< irker823> Details vs2017/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-605wt/build/Wesnoth-VS2017-master-3419 20180604 08:48:42< irker823> Details vs2015/Release: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-master-3704 20180604 08:48:42-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180604 08:48:54-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 08:55:15-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180604 09:20:53<+discordbot5> I just noticed our config initializer list has an odd syntax 🤔 Key/value pairs aren't wrapped in {}. Instead, even-numbered arguments are keys, and odd-numbered are values 20180604 09:37:23< zookeeper> what's odd about that? 20180604 09:37:47<+discordbot5> normally they're wrapped in {} 20180604 09:44:22-!- gfg [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 09:48:36<+discordbot5> what in hell 20180604 09:48:45<+discordbot5> Steam is using 34% of my CPU 20180604 09:48:47<+discordbot5> O_O 20180604 09:49:08<+discordbot5> it drops to 1% if I close the Steam window 20180604 09:49:26<+discordbot5> must be inefficient rendering 20180604 09:53:38<+discordbot5> no wonder I've been having so much lag, though 20180604 09:57:34<+discordbot5> that's the reason I don't like to run it 20180604 09:59:05<+discordbot5> dost thou have a 4k screen 20180604 10:00:32< Soliton> gfg: new version command is live now. 20180604 10:00:33<+discordbot5> I do, and given the rendering problems Steam's had after they added high-DPI support, I can't help but think that's a contributing factor 20180604 10:01:23-!- gfg [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 10:01:39-!- gfg [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:02:04< gfg> Nice thx will test immediately 20180604 10:02:07<+discordbot5> turns out my work on the listbox earlier was unnecessary 🤔 20180604 10:03:47< vn971> that's a tad strange. Without re-compilation, my 1.14-compiled branch connects to a room with only 1-2 players active. I was about to re-compile 1.14 branch anyway, but... strange. Shouldn't 1.14 series compatible with each other? I see now news regarding breaking changes either. 20180604 10:04:14< Soliton> i just restarted the server so most people or still on the old instance. 20180604 10:04:24< vn971> * shouldn't 1.14 series be compatible with each other? I see no news regarding breaking changes either. 20180604 10:04:56< vn971> Soliton: Ah, it's temporary. Gotcha, thx. 20180604 10:05:35-!- gfgtdf [~gfgtdf@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:07:40<+discordbot5> nope my screen is ole 1366/768 20180604 10:12:02<+discordbot5> 34% CPU for Steam is definitely not normal. For me it hovers around 0% most of the time. 20180604 10:14:29< Soliton> gfgtdf: would be useful to add the version to the status command output as well. then we also have a way to query the version for all clients at once for free, for moderators anyway. 20180604 10:16:49< gfgtdf> i thought 'status' is also per-player? 20180604 10:17:19< gfgtdf> or did you mean 'stats' ? 20180604 10:17:21<+discordbot5> " ok about 2/3 is using wesnoth 1.14.2 now." 20180604 10:17:23<+discordbot5> this is good 20180604 10:18:23< vn971> Soliton: ^ (I guess he meant stats) 20180604 10:19:53< Soliton> gfgtdf: for normal users, yes. 20180604 10:20:06< Soliton> no, i did not mean stats. 20180604 10:20:35-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: aidanhs2 20180604 10:20:35< Soliton> with no parameter or '*' as paramater you get all clients. 20180604 10:21:36< gfg> hm ok 20180604 10:22:09< Soliton> normal users are not allowed to add a parameter and instead the parameter is forced to be their username. 20180604 10:24:01-!- irker823 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180604 10:26:47-!- irker147 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:26:47< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master aaabbf2687ea / src/server/ (player_connection.hpp server.cpp): server: remember client's ip in player_connections_ and use it in remove_player( https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/aaabbf2687ea0bc25dc3a9f8705fe0b6f29c1af2 20180604 10:26:47< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 57da02a9196f / src/server/server.cpp: Update server to use new way of getting wesnoth version https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/57da02a9196f6b616ade01cda3de08f2d40ba554 20180604 10:27:47-!- Netsplit over, joins: aidanhs2 20180604 10:29:11< Soliton> loonycyborg: it'd be nice to get the periodical logging of players and games back, btw. 20180604 10:29:25< Soliton> (dump_stats) 20180604 10:30:09< loonycyborg> how did it work before? 20180604 10:30:17< Soliton> and it seems like most server output does have a superfluous blank line at the end that should be removed. 20180604 10:30:50< Soliton> dump_stats was called every 5 minutes. 20180604 10:30:57< loonycyborg> server::dump_stats() still exists 20180604 10:31:07< loonycyborg> would calling it every 5mins will be enough? 20180604 10:31:12< Soliton> yes, that is why i mentioned it. 20180604 10:31:18< Soliton> sure. 20180604 10:32:04< Soliton> while you at that you could also reactivate the lan_server option. i've made an issue about that one. 20180604 10:32:40-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 10:33:29< Soliton> (since that also needs a periodic check.) 20180604 10:34:35-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55006c43ea1dba422b94.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:34:35-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55006c43ea1dba422b94.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 10:34:35-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:35:27-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Client Quit] 20180604 10:38:52< loonycyborg> Soliton: what do you mean with superflous lines? 20180604 10:39:09< loonycyborg> at least I don't see blank lines in current.log 20180604 10:42:18< Soliton> there's two in there right now. one from a wml command and one from printing client wml which might be the client's fault. 20180604 10:42:55< Soliton> now you have a third from the stats command. 20180604 10:45:42< Soliton> whatever process_command returns is output with a newline appended so if the command itself also adds the final newline there is going to be a blank line. 20180604 10:49:24-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-221-92-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:49:25< travis-ci> wesnoth/wesnoth#18468 (master - 57da02a : loonycyborg): The build was fixed. 20180604 10:49:25< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/wesnoth/wesnoth/builds/387715430 20180604 10:49:25-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-221-92-166.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180604 10:49:26-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b5500503a14e5d255306d.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:49:26-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b5500503a14e5d255306d.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 10:49:26-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 10:53:18-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Client Quit] 20180604 10:57:38-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-107-125.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 11:01:52-!- gfg [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180604 11:06:16-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55000d17f9639c0b5601.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 11:06:16-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55000d17f9639c0b5601.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 11:06:16-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 11:07:47-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Client Quit] 20180604 11:26:22-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-107-125.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 11:29:03-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-107-125.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 11:29:05-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-107-125.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20180604 11:47:43< Ravana_> will https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/3201 be done for 1.14.3? 20180604 11:50:51< vn971> oops, there's a bug I think. I'm testing a version I compiled from 1.14 branch just now. When you observe an Afterlife game, "statistics" are broken, the values for "Losses" and "kills" are always equal (even when they're really not). 20180604 11:51:36< vn971> I'm not sure whether it affects non-Afterlife maps (afterlife copies units), and/or whether it affects the players (or only observers). 20180604 11:53:39< vn971> Nevermind sorry, it's this: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/3201 20180604 11:53:57< vn971> (The bug really exists, but it's already being reported.) 20180604 11:54:38<+discordbot5> You mean "it was already reported". 20180604 11:55:11< loonycyborg> Soliton: how exactly lan_server setting supposed to work? terminate server after that delay when number is 0? 20180604 11:55:52< vn971> jyrkive, yes. Thx for the correction. 20180604 11:58:40-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180604 11:59:45< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:1.14 91e36ca07252 / src/server/ (player_connection.hpp server.cpp): server: remember client's ip in player_connections_ and use it in remove_player( https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/91e36ca07252b007e874c29472ff4f12719a1ac4 20180604 11:59:56< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 0714d488bcd1 / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): wesnothd: restore functionality to log stats every 5 minutes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/0714d488bcd1eadd37c7785a1066925d5fa1b0d8 20180604 12:01:34< Soliton> Ravana_, vn971: is it trivially reproducable? some reproduction steps would be helpful, i think. 20180604 12:03:21< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:1.14 54bdfcad8799 / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): wesnothd: restore functionality to log stats every 5 minutes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/54bdfcad8799dfeb58886ab27a752f244346d2aa 20180604 12:04:02< loonycyborg> *number of users 20180604 12:04:18< Soliton> loonycyborg: terminate after lan_server seconds after the last user disconnected, yes. 20180604 12:07:01< vn971> Soliton: makes sense to ask on the GH issue, first and foremost. Then, IDK actually. If what "tamanegi-jp" says is true, then you just should start any game whatsoever, experience recruit units and see foreign recruits in "statistics" window. 20180604 12:07:44< vn971> * sorry, made a couple of typos here, but I hope it's clear what I'm trying to say. 20180604 12:07:55< Soliton> if it was really introduced in 1.14.2 i guess it shouldn't be that difficult to figure out. 20180604 12:08:35-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 12:10:03<+discordbot5> hi, i added a way to reproduce that 20180604 12:10:34< Soliton> thank you. 20180604 12:11:07<+discordbot5> and this does not happen when using 1.14.1 20180604 12:11:32<+discordbot5> very odd 20180604 12:11:55< Soliton> interesting, and it happens only with an ai side, yes? not with human vs human? 20180604 12:12:10<+discordbot5> always in MP, i supose 20180604 12:12:15< vn971> Soliton: I saw it in a H-H game first. 20180604 12:12:25< Soliton> oh, ok. 20180604 12:15:15<+discordbot5> hmmmmmmm 20180604 12:15:37<+discordbot5> I suppose it's dangerous to make assumptions and convert a shared ptr to a unique ptr 20180604 12:15:48-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc144.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 12:16:06<+discordbot5> 🤔 20180604 12:17:13<+discordbot5> Indeed. You can only make that conversion if there are no other shared_ptrs to the object. 20180604 12:17:45<+discordbot5> Otherwise you'll create a double free, when both unique_ptr and shared_ptr attempt to free the object. 20180604 12:17:53<+discordbot5> alright, then. Seems shared_ptrs for managing widgets is the way to go 20180604 12:18:41<+discordbot5> this has become a refactor several times the scope I anticipated. 😬 20180604 12:18:48<+discordbot5> oh well. Fewer raw pointers is good. 20180604 12:19:50<+discordbot5> I recall many days when I started to investigate some minor-looking bug in Angry Birds Stella and then recursed to a couple of days of refactoring and code removal all over the place. 20180604 12:20:05<+discordbot5> heh. 20180604 12:23:30<+discordbot5> basically, what I'm doing is making it so widgets are managed by smart pointers from the moment they're created instead of being allocated with new and then being passed around as a raw pointer until getting taken over by a grid child object. 20180604 12:23:59<+discordbot5> will guard against potential memory leaks 20180604 12:24:44<+discordbot5> but it turns out in the process, I'm having to rethink assumptions of how widgets pointers are stored, what functions take what parameters, etc.... 20180604 12:25:34<+discordbot5> but, it looks like I'll be able to make a few things a lot clearer in the process 20180604 12:27:17<+discordbot5> for example, scrollbar_container holds a raw spacer pointer that's allocated on the heap and then given over to a grid to manage where it's (currently) snagged by a unique_ptr. The grid handles destroying it, but without close examination that's not immediately obvious. 20180604 12:27:38<+discordbot5> with my changes, both scrollbar_container and the grid will have a shared_ptr 20180604 12:27:45<+discordbot5> much clearer as to the shared ownership 20180604 12:31:17<+discordbot5> though, are you allowed to have shared_ptr and shared_ptr pointing to the same object? 20180604 12:32:27<+discordbot5> I would assume so... 20180604 12:33:29<+discordbot5> Looks like it. 20180604 12:33:29<+discordbot5> https://stackoverflow.com/a/6285254 20180604 12:34:38<+discordbot5> Have to remember that "down" casting is what I would think of as "up" casting... 20180604 12:42:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 12:42:17-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 12:47:19-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 12:47:25-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:14:32-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b550035947bff9c74594f.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:14:32-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b550035947bff9c74594f.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 13:14:32-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:18:35< Soliton> https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-billion/ looks like it's official now. 20180604 13:19:33-!- Oebele [~quassel@185-11-201-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:20:14-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 13:20:40< vn971> Damn.:( 20180604 13:21:03<+discordbot5> geez, stop being so cynical. 20180604 13:21:27<+discordbot5> it's just announced 20180604 13:21:37<+discordbot5> it could turn out to be a good thing 20180604 13:21:55<+discordbot5> Or a neutral thing. 20180604 13:21:59<+discordbot5> indeed 20180604 13:22:19<+discordbot5> no reason to assume it will turn out badly 5 minutes after the news breaks. 20180604 13:22:59< vn971> Vultraz: why no, actually? I don't want my data to be shared to a spying company, and now it will be so. Is that enough? 20180604 13:23:36<+discordbot5> what data? Your commit history? 20180604 13:23:55-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180604 13:24:13-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:24:20< vn971> Vultraz: all personal data, metadata (IP-s etc), all commits in private repositories etc. 20180604 13:24:48<+discordbot5> so it's ok if github has this data, but not microsoft.... 20180604 13:25:20< Soliton> it should be fairly clear that most people are concerned because of microsoft's history. 20180604 13:25:42<+discordbot5> My employer uses private GitHub repositories, and at the moment we don't have any plans to migrate away from there. 20180604 13:25:51<+discordbot5> Has MS been involved in some big data breach I don't know about? 20180604 13:25:53< vn971> Vultraz, yes, of course. You don't believe company-s actions depend on the upper management? I'm sure you're realistic enough to understand that it _does_ depend. And ultimately so. (Well, except NSA cases, when company specifics may matter a bit less.) 20180604 13:26:18<+discordbot5> Sure 20180604 13:26:38-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:27:18<+discordbot5> I get that, I just don't see it as an issue 20180604 13:27:25<+discordbot5> Because I use so much MS stuff 😛 20180604 13:29:11<+discordbot5> Anything that's secret you don't give to GitHub (or any other external company, for that matter). Anything else, not really a problem if it ends up in Microsoft's hands. 20180604 13:29:46< vn971> Vultraz, yes, like the Win10 user agreement you sign into when using it? There's also a common understanding between Russian IT specialist that Skype gives access to all audio recording for Russian authorities, in exchanged for not being banned. Story happened after aquisition by MS, as you might imagine. 20180604 13:29:48< vn971> There's a documented provable fact that schools in Russia are required to use software which distribution is weight more than 300Mb (story from around 2005). What is this, a technical decision by a transparent committee? Or corruption? 20180604 13:29:56<+discordbot5> Skype has been catched reading URLs people posted in private messages to each other, after MS bought it. But I agree that in general it's just a company like many others, to be honest I would be personally more worried if Google or Facebook was involved. 20180604 13:30:05< vn971> The story with Nokia is also quite teaching. 20180604 13:30:36< vn971> Also, MS employees acknowledge the existence and details of the EEE tactics used by MS in a US court. 20180604 13:30:54< vn971> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish 20180604 13:31:05<+discordbot5> In the Nokia case, both Nokia's and Microsoft's upper management were completely deluded. 20180604 13:31:26<+discordbot5> Nokia was their competition though, is github one too? 20180604 13:31:38<+discordbot5> vn971: it's Russia... what do you expect 😛 yes, that sounds dodgy as hell, but.... it's Russia. 20180604 13:31:42< vn971> + Microsoft is an early adopters of PRISM, as Snowden reports say. 20180604 13:31:50<+discordbot5> Neither company realized that there wasn't room for another mobile OS, or that it would be impossible to climb from a situation without any market share or apps. 20180604 13:32:42< vn971> Vultraz, it's not only "Russia". It's a question whether bribery took place by MS representatives or not. It all matters, to me, and is a part of company-s reputation in my eyes. 20180604 13:34:00<+discordbot5> I don't know anything of these situations you speak of, ftr 20180604 13:34:53<+discordbot5> It appears that Russian authorities don't allow any communication platform to operate without allowing users to be spied. 20180604 13:34:54<+discordbot5> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/government/russia-bans-18-million-amazon-and-google-ips-in-attempt-to-block-telegram/ 20180604 13:35:16<+discordbot5> Not that it would make Microsoft's actions re:Skype any better... 20180604 13:35:35< vn971> PRISM, Win10 licence agreement, Nokia story and other things are easily googlable, if you're open-minded on the subject. 20180604 13:37:14<+discordbot5> I don't see why I should care about a failed attempt to launch a mobile OS, really. I know about the telemetry data and stuff in Win 10, but I don't really care about it, and as for PRISM, that I am not well-versed enough in. 20180604 13:37:36<+discordbot5> There isn't any reason to believe that there was any malice behind the Nokia story. It was just both Nokia and MS failing to understand how the modern mobile OS market worked. 20180604 13:37:46<+discordbot5> ^ 20180604 13:38:17<+discordbot5> good idea, bad execution. 20180604 13:38:17<+discordbot5> After all, if Nokia had understood the situation, they would have never even considered the deal for longer than about 0,000003 seconds. 20180604 13:38:35<+discordbot5> And it's logical to assume that Microsoft made the same flawed assumptions. 20180604 13:39:29< Soliton> i think the main thing to understand is that other people have different views on their private data. just because you don't care doesn't mean other people don't either or that it's silly if they do. 20180604 13:39:39<+discordbot5> and as for Russian banning IPs to block Telegram... I mean.... of course that's something they would do. I don't see what MS has to do with it. 20180604 13:39:40< vn971> @Vultraz: it's not a proved story, but it'd be much better in Nokia-s perspective to stick to Android. 20180604 13:39:43<+discordbot5> Russia 20180604 13:42:22<+discordbot5> My point with the Telegram news is that Skype would also have been banned in Russia if Microsoft hadn't agreed to spy Skype users. 20180604 13:42:30< vn971> @Vultraz, but technically, nothing too serious. Just a former employee of MS joining Nokia, going with all forces into MS, ruining Nokia and then going back to MS as upper management. Each step can be proven to be more or less OK. Even the "EEE" strategy I described is not overly bad. Each step can be "defended". But overall, would a person be OK with EEE strategy or allegations of the Nokia interpretation? I guess it depends on the 20180604 13:42:30< vn971> user. 20180604 13:42:35<+discordbot5> I see 20180604 13:43:09<+discordbot5> well, ok, that is shady on MS's part. 20180604 13:43:33< vn971> @jyrkive yes. Also, you're right, Skype was indeed about to be banned in Russia. Something about helping local mobile operators, or having no control over this foreign entity (Skype). Or a combination of those. 20180604 13:43:56<+discordbot5> well that excuse doesn't pass the straight-face test... 20180604 13:44:05< vn971> I mean, that was the official reasoning behind blocking Skype. 20180604 13:44:14<+discordbot5> vn971: that story fails to take into account two things: 1) why did Nokia decide to hire Elop in the first place, and 2) what did Microsoft gain by almost destroying Nokia. 20180604 13:44:51< vn971> jyrkive: 2) attempt to get in into mobile market? 20180604 13:44:52< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:1.14 6a88624f4464 / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): wesnothd: restore lan server auto-shutdown functionality https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/6a88624f446429475c103862b602c203aae504b8 20180604 13:45:09<+discordbot5> "We shall spend a huge chunk of money to buy this company, invest even more money in a product, and then destroy it!" 20180604 13:45:28-!- Oebele [~quassel@185-11-201-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 13:45:31< irker147> wesnoth: loonycyborg wesnoth:master 4eea1b5f0d4a / src/server/ (server.cpp server.hpp): wesnothd: restore lan server auto-shutdown functionality https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4eea1b5f0d4a0de9155c23be8a5abe097cf23f09 20180604 13:45:56<+discordbot5> Getting into the mobile market would have worked much better if Nokia would have been in a strong position in the market, rather than in low single digits. 20180604 13:46:00< vn971> @Vultraz With Nokia? Obviously not. It's the mobile marked that (correctly) promised billions of dollars. 20180604 13:46:39<+discordbot5> If we were to assume that they were intentionally hurting Nokia, at the same time they also made their own situation even more desperate. 20180604 13:47:28<+discordbot5> To me, trying to read a conspiracy into that makes about much sense as Trump claiming the Dems were the ones who colluded with Russia in a diabolical plot to.... lose the election. 😐 20180604 13:47:37< vn971> @jyrkive, no, Elop is never accused in intentionally harming Nokia as a goal in itself. The alleged action is going all-forces into MS, in interest of MS but not Nokia. 20180604 13:48:24-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 13:48:45<+discordbot5> Nah, it's obvious that Nokia's board had hired Elop in order to go all-in on Windows Phone. 20180604 13:48:55<+discordbot5> His job was just to execute that strategy. 20180604 13:49:24< vn971> Anyway, I'm not accusing Elop of corruption. I explain my personal views on why: 1. MS is a slow-evolving company that loses high-quality products and turns them into spyware at the best 2. MS is a dangerous company to keep your data in. 20180604 13:49:42<+discordbot5> well they definitely disrupted nokia in process, and failed to achieve their goal too 20180604 13:50:09< vn971> @jyrkive, actually, you may be right. It is indeed fully legit. 20180604 13:50:23<+discordbot5> that implies Nokia would have somehow been successful in its own right 20180604 13:50:37<+discordbot5> nokia most definitely would have 20180604 13:50:45< vn971> @vultraz, no. Just partnering with MS is a bad idea.;-) 20180604 13:50:52<+discordbot5> because they have really good hardware 20180604 13:51:07<+discordbot5> What they should have done is utilize all operating systems in their disposal: Android, Windows Phone, Symbian^3, and MeeGo. 20180604 13:51:25<+discordbot5> That way they would have been successful if even one of them had succeeded. 20180604 13:51:26< vn971> but yeah, Nokia was king. It's exactly MS cooperation that ruined it. Definitely not reputation, not hardware. 20180604 13:51:31<+discordbot5> huh, I didn't know Nokia was Finnish... 20180604 13:51:54<+discordbot5> MS just disrupted nokia so it could place own stickers on some smartphones 20180604 13:52:13<+discordbot5> and I guess to acquire some hardware technology too 20180604 13:52:32<+discordbot5> If Nokia thought they could be successful and still agreed to an acquisition, they were stupid. 20180604 13:52:50<+discordbot5> Nokia doesn't have a single mind 20180604 13:53:08-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b550075e51118b03c3081.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:53:08-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b550075e51118b03c3081.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 13:53:08-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 13:53:08<+discordbot5> it was just partitioned in process, with many ppl leaving 20180604 13:53:12<+discordbot5> The acquisition happened when the situation was completely desperate, and it was obvious that the Windows Phone strategy had failed. 20180604 13:53:18<+discordbot5> those who weren't consulted during decision 20180604 13:54:00< Soliton> loonycyborg: IMO if you don't want to use braces with if, use one line. if you use two lines, use braces. 20180604 13:54:29<+discordbot5> I guess you have a point 20180604 13:54:43<+discordbot5> Microsoft has never really seemed like a great hardware designer until recently. 20180604 13:54:55<+discordbot5> Like, really recently. 20180604 13:54:59<+discordbot5> with its Surface stuff 20180604 13:55:06<+discordbot5> At the time of the acquisition, the market share had only climbed to low single digits. Way too low that app developers would have targeted WinPhone. The result was that WinPhone had much less apps than iOS/Android, no one wanted to buy Nokia phones, and they had to sell at a loss in an attempt to increase the market share. 20180604 13:55:20<+discordbot5> And their pockets were almost empty, they couldn't keep going any more. 20180604 13:55:32<+discordbot5> remember Zune.... 20180604 13:55:59<+discordbot5> That Microsoft still somehow had hope in mobile and agreed to buy the mobile phone business was the absolute best news Nokia could possibly have gotten. 20180604 13:57:23<+discordbot5> ms always had good keyboards and mice 20180604 13:57:24< vn971> @jyrkive: yeah, basically it's shaky ground to say that MS is bad in disrupting Nokia. It's not. But Nokia's decision to coop with MS was bad. That's a fact. 20180604 13:58:01<+discordbot5> Yep, the decision to use exclusively Windows Phone was stupid beyond belief. 20180604 13:58:20<+discordbot5> (It was almost certainly made before Elpo was hired.) 20180604 13:58:25<+discordbot5> *Elop 20180604 13:58:39<+discordbot5> This decision could only be made because people who don't stand anything to lose had the most power. 20180604 13:59:07<+discordbot5> Like those execs will get millions or billions of salary no matter what they do 20180604 13:59:11<+discordbot5> they can do any crap 20180604 13:59:34<+discordbot5> those corps just don't work based on principles of meritocracy 20180604 13:59:54<+discordbot5> No, it's believed to be largely that the executives overestimated Nokia's importance and position. 20180604 14:00:55<+discordbot5> The argument in favor of exclusively Windows Phone (which I even saw mentioned in newspapers) was that Nokia was afraid that the mobile phone market would end up similar to the PC market: huge volumes but paper-thin margins. 20180604 14:01:26<+discordbot5> And in the PC market, most money ended up in... Microsoft's hands, since they were the OS developer. 20180604 14:02:50<+discordbot5> No one knows what kind of deal, exactly, Nokia had with Microsoft. It was probably something like getting WinPhone licenses with a large discount in exchange of using it exclusively. 20180604 14:03:25<+discordbot5> Had Nokia's strategy succeeded, they would have gotten a position where they alone had large margins as a smartphone OEM. 20180604 14:04:18<+discordbot5> (It got quite ironic when Microsoft made WinPhone free for all phone-sized devices. If Nokia's deal had indeed been a discount, it became completely worthless at that point.) 20180604 14:05:10<+discordbot5> any sort of competetive market implies race to low margins 20180604 14:05:27<+discordbot5> if you want high margins you always need some sort of cheat 20180604 14:05:40<+discordbot5> either monopoly or government support 20180604 14:06:43<+discordbot5> Indeed, a monopoly is the easiest way to achieve high margins... or an exclusive agreement with another such company. 20180604 14:08:07< vn971> @jyrkive the latter is illegal (well, obviously). 20180604 14:08:20<+discordbot5> Of course, as lucrative as the agreement might have been, it was stupid for the simple reason that Windows Phone was already failing in the mobile market, and there weren't any signs that it would succeed. And worse, going all-in with one OS would risk the whole company. 20180604 14:08:50<+discordbot5> What exactly is illegal in exclusive agreements? 20180604 14:10:15-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 14:11:03< vn971> @jyrkive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law 20180604 14:14:16<+discordbot5> I think you're referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_dealing in particular? 20180604 14:14:53<+discordbot5> I don't know the details of Nokia's and Microsoft's agreement, obviously. However, it's clear that MS offered something in return. 20180604 14:15:23<+discordbot5> As stupid as the WinPhone decision was, the number of brain cells involved in it isn't zero. 20180604 14:17:34-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55009c029677ac797165.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 14:17:34-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55009c029677ac797165.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 14:17:34-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 14:20:00<+discordbot5> Honestly, I think the only reason why the former Nokia CEO isn't in jail for this is because even Finnish authorities can be bribed if you have enough money. 20180604 14:20:25<+discordbot5> Making stupid decisions isn't illegal. 20180604 14:20:38<+discordbot5> Making decisions that harm your company for your personal profit is. 20180604 14:21:07<+discordbot5> That's still just a conspiracy theory. 20180604 14:21:55<+discordbot5> Besides, the board is supposed to keep an eye on the CEO instead of letting him do what he pleases. It's clear that he had the board's approval for everything. 20180604 14:24:26<+discordbot5> Well, the guy was first in Microsoft, moved to Nokia, made deal with MS, destroyed Nokia, got €18.8 million bonus for selling Nokia to MS, then switched back to MS. Not fishy at all. 20180604 14:25:42<+discordbot5> source, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Elop 20180604 14:26:00<+discordbot5> It's not very wise to claim conspiracy theories everywhere. 20180604 14:26:15<+discordbot5> Well, good that I'm not doing it everywhere. 20180604 14:26:52<+discordbot5> I'd like to remind that a human being can't just get employed as the CEO of any company they like, or destroy the company without getting fired by the board. 20180604 14:27:22<+discordbot5> If you don't find this particular situation as fishy than I don't know what to say. To me it is quite clear there were some deals behind what the public can see and Elop gained a lot on this, despite literally destroying a great company. 20180604 14:27:54<+discordbot5> but I guess if yo get to the CEO level you can be incredibely bad at anything and make terrible decisions one after another and still get paid enough to never have to work ever again in your life. 20180604 14:29:15<+discordbot5> The board made both the decision to hire Elop (who, of course, was already working for Microsoft... at the time when Nokia was already considering WinPhone), and the decision not to fire him when he made the "Nokia, or platform is burning" email, when he proposed the "exclusively WinPhone" strategy (assuming that he proposed it instead of the board), and when it became clear that the strategy wasn't working. 20180604 14:29:40-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc137.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 14:29:42<+discordbot5> Oh, but I'm not saying the board was not involved in the deal (or some part of the board). 20180604 14:30:02-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc144.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180604 14:30:09<+discordbot5> Although one could argue that they were manipulated to get into a situation with only bad choices to make. 20180604 14:31:26<+discordbot5> It's easier to simply assume that the board believed in the strategy (and so did Elop). 20180604 14:31:46<+discordbot5> For the record, Finnish newspapers were also hopeful about that strategy at first. 20180604 14:34:41-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc137.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180604 14:37:01-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 14:41:52-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:e4b2:fa1c:d31e:ce0a] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180604 14:49:38-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 14:59:21-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 15:08:34-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 15:10:12-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 15:11:36-!- sevu [~Shiki@p548551EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 15:24:15< sevu> zookeeper, the greenish thundering in for the rod of justice looks great 20180604 15:32:13-!- gallaecio [~quassel@143.red-81-32-24.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 15:40:05-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 15:41:28-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 15:41:53-!- sevu [~Shiki@p548551EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20180604 15:48:34-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 16:28:44< irker147> wesnoth/wesnoth:master loonycyborg 57da02a919 Update server to use new way of getting AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 16:33:30-!- gfgt [~androirc@134.76.63.8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 16:37:53<+discordbot5> @jyrkive maybe newspapers could believe that but any professional who actually works in smartphone area would know that it will be near impossible to dislodge ios and android 20180604 16:38:04<+discordbot5> with a new platform that is incompatible with them 20180604 16:38:12<+discordbot5> and doesn't offer any killer features either 20180604 16:38:16<+discordbot5> Agreed. 20180604 16:38:50<+discordbot5> Nokia's board was simply completely out of touch with the technology side. They were business people. 20180604 16:39:17<+discordbot5> I don't think it's in any way acceptable situation 20180604 16:39:32<+discordbot5> The highest management of the largest mobile phone company should have known better. 20180604 16:39:42<+discordbot5> people who are for whatever reason are ignorant about subject matter should never be allowed to make decisions 20180604 16:41:05-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 16:41:17<+discordbot5> It was the 2000s, and it wasn't yet really understood that technology knowledge is very important in upper management of tech companies. 20180604 16:41:48<+discordbot5> Nokia wasn't the only company stuck with terrible management. There was also AMD, for example. 20180604 16:43:10<+discordbot5> iirc amd had some issues with using too much autogeneration with their design 20180604 16:43:35<+discordbot5> by management decision 20180604 16:43:46<+discordbot5> while with ryzen they were allowed to run wild 😛 20180604 16:47:42-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55000d39e1e44e22f8e7.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 16:47:42-!- fabi [~fabi@200116b82b5b55000d39e1e44e22f8e7.dip.versatel-1u1.de] has quit [Changing host] 20180604 16:47:42-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 16:51:26< zookeeper> sevu, i was pondering whether to try to find some other IPF effects to stack on top of that to make it even fancier, but yeah, i think it'll do... 20180604 16:52:24< irker147> wesnoth: Thom Diment wesnoth:master 913b77d79d9a / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/05a_01_The_Pursuit.cfg: NR5_1: Fixes to Malifor attack and secret door events (#3154) https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/913b77d79d9ac0fb4d67ac1461811aeb691daa60 20180604 16:56:28<+discordbot5> zookeeper, it's already great 20180604 17:00:56<+discordbot5> Backport too 20180604 17:04:13<+discordbot5> I'm on it, will ad another commit too 20180604 17:13:46<+discordbot5> The wiki says wesnoth.scroll_to_tile takes two coordinates as its first arguments but in data/lua/wml/kill.lua the code passes a single table. How come? 20180604 17:15:58<+discordbot5> because of the luaW_tolocation function. It accepts multiple types of location input. Converts an optional table or pair of integers to a map location object. 20180604 17:17:06<+discordbot5> So would I be able to pass the third parameter (the one that defines whether to ignore shroud and fog) as the second? 20180604 17:17:24<+discordbot5> AFAIK. 20180604 17:17:27<+discordbot5> Or would I have to explicitly pass the coordinates as the first two? 20180604 17:17:37<+discordbot5> you'd have to test 20180604 17:18:55<+discordbot5> fun fun fun fun fun.... now I'm editing the generator class 20180604 17:19:35<+discordbot5> so many raw pointers 20180604 17:19:40<+discordbot5> You're a test. 20180604 17:21:37<+discordbot5> mein gott. 20180604 17:24:27-!- ToBeFree [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 17:41:17< irker147> wesnoth: Thom Diment wesnoth:1.14 2935946c125c / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/scenarios/05a_01_The_Pursuit.cfg: NR S5a: bugfixes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/2935946c125cfc17281fca1d4362bcc8271d2248 20180604 17:41:19< irker147> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:1.14 05e053ca434c / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/ (3 files in 3 dirs): NR S5a: more bugfixes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/05e053ca434cacf254817d19e8598651a515a28c 20180604 17:43:04< irker147> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master fc427ce58c6c / data/campaigns/Northern_Rebirth/ (4 files in 3 dirs): NR S5a: more bugfixes https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/fc427ce58c6ce2c3948711207e67c646d2295951 20180604 17:44:01<+discordbot5> it just doesn't end.. 20180604 17:57:53<+discordbot5> only realized recently one can use static_cast if one doesn't need typechecking 🤔 20180604 17:58:04<+discordbot5> static_pointer_cast it is! 20180604 17:58:26<+discordbot5> What. 20180604 17:59:00<+discordbot5> Are you saying you somehow managed to learn to use dynamic_cast before static_cast? 20180604 17:59:07<+discordbot5> yes. 20180604 17:59:11<+discordbot5> Wow. 20180604 17:59:46<+discordbot5> I think it was you who taught me dynamic_cast in 2015/1206 when I was working on the prefs dialog 20180604 17:59:59<+discordbot5> Yes, because we needed dynamic_cast. 20180604 18:00:17<+discordbot5> You don't always need dynamic_cast and it is actually more expensive than any other form of cast. 20180604 18:01:12<+discordbot5> (Relatively speaking. You won't notice unless you end up writing a loop involving it.) 20180604 18:01:39<+discordbot5> but since then I've kinda used it in any place I needed to do polymorphic casting, since I thought it was required for that, and that static_cast was only for primitive types like int -> unsigned. 20180604 18:02:20<+discordbot5> I tend to always use dynamic_cast for downcasting. 20180604 18:02:36<+discordbot5> but now I realize that, say, widget -> grid can be done with static_cast 20180604 18:03:07<+discordbot5> downcasting....ok, that is downcasting 20180604 18:04:11<+discordbot5> (really, why do they call going from a base to a derived type "donwncasting" - a base is usually the bottom of something >_< ) 20180604 18:04:54<+discordbot5> The type hierarchy is usually viewed as a pyramid. 20180604 18:05:08<+discordbot5> I see 20180604 18:05:09<+discordbot5> With the base class at the top, and derived classes lower down. 20180604 18:05:16<+discordbot5> ok, that makes more sense 20180604 18:05:21<+discordbot5> I've been visualizing it as a tree 20180604 18:05:40<+discordbot5> with the base class the trunk and the derived classes the branches. 20180604 18:13:55< irker147> wesnoth/wesnoth:master loonycyborg 0714d488bc wesnothd: restore functionality to log s AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 18:14:22<+discordbot5> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259976436490829825/453260236166266912/message.png 20180604 18:15:02<+discordbot5> Maybe there could be a more precise error message? 20180604 18:15:23<+discordbot5> the required Era is probably not on the add-on server 20180604 18:15:54<+discordbot5> Oh dear 20180604 18:17:57-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180604 18:19:13<+discordbot5> I always forget how exactly that error pops up 20180604 18:19:16-!- Oebele [~quassel@185-11-201-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 18:20:09<+discordbot5> the game is still open to join on the server 20180604 18:20:26<+discordbot5> Ah right, I think I remember 20180604 18:20:41<+discordbot5> The game says there are addons needed 20180604 18:20:47<+discordbot5> But the list of required addons is empty 20180604 18:23:16<+discordbot5> "required" = required + available on the server 20180604 18:28:32<+discordbot5> on option to fiter out open, but password restricted games might e a good addition - or displaying them less prominently than open ones, in another color 20180604 18:31:08< Ravana_> games with open slots could be sorted before those without 20180604 18:44:30-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 18:44:41-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 18:53:53<+discordbot5> isn't the current sorting done so things do not jump around? 20180604 19:00:28-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124x38x163x22.ap124.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 19:00:39-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 19:09:16<+discordbot5> there isn't manual sorting aplied 20180604 19:18:26-!- Oebele [~quassel@185-11-201-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 19:21:08<+discordbot5> well, perhaps, but it does sort based on some ID I guess, meaning sorting by time of creation, right? 20180604 19:33:10<+discordbot5> yeah 20180604 19:33:37-!- ToBeFree [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20180604 19:36:19-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:45c4:1ad6:318c:ea07] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 19:42:27<+discordbot5> Someone just told me that [move_unit] fires unit placed events 20180604 19:43:44< vn971> that would be rather unexpected (to me as an add-on dev.). sevu: I guess fill a bug? 20180604 19:45:57< Ravana_> last time someone complained about unit placed, response was that there is no promise the event would not fire when doing something 20180604 19:46:37<+discordbot5> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/EventWML#unit_placed_.28Version_1.13.3_and_later_only.29 20180604 19:46:52<+discordbot5> [move_unit] internally uses one of those methods to relocate the original unit. 20180604 19:47:38< vn971> Ravana_: oh, that's true of course, but... (But what about at least trying to hold with user expectations?) 20180604 19:48:10<+discordbot5> The user expectations should be what the wiki says in this case. 20180604 19:48:12< vn971> @shadowm: interesting. Can we implement it via some other way then? Like some abstract fire_event=no in unit placement code? 20180604 19:48:25<+discordbot5> I have no idea how any of that works so no idea. 20180604 19:49:08< vn971> @shadowm: user expectations are just user expectations, they're not written anywhere. They're just expected. If we agree on that, then it's nice when the actual behavior is documented and matches aforementioned expectations... 20180604 19:49:09< Ravana_> no, entire purpose of unit placed it that every unit always has it fired for itself 20180604 19:49:47<+discordbot5> Users shouldn't have any expectations when it comes to the WML engine honestly. 20180604 19:50:02<+discordbot5> There are a lot of things that are the way they are just because people rely on existing behaviour. 20180604 19:51:35< vn971> @shadowm: yeah I didn't mean to break anything. But you linked the wiki page yourself, and it doesn't list "move" as a valid trigger. The "internally" part isn't documented anywhere. You see the controversy right?. 20180604 19:51:49< vn971> Anyway, gotta see in code if it can even be fixed, before flooding around.. 20180604 19:51:55<+discordbot5> I see that this is a thing that needs to be added to the wiki. 20180604 19:52:03< Ravana_> > can fire an unlimited number of times for the same unit as long the unit is "placed" several times and the event filter doesn't prevent it 20180604 19:52:19< vn971> @shadowm: or done correctly and _then_ added to the wiki? 20180604 19:52:21<+discordbot5> Also here's the problem with arguing about user expectations: this "expectation" seems completely invalid for me because I know how the code works. 20180604 19:52:48< zookeeper> it doesn't make sense for [move_unit] to cause unit placed events to fire (because normal moves don't, either), but on a rather unrelated note, if it's a problem for someone then they're most likely writing their code wrong. 20180604 19:53:02<+discordbot5> Since I know that [move_unit] does not move the unit, but rather destroys it, does a [move_unit_fake], and then places it again at the target location, firing the event makes perfect sense to me. 20180604 19:53:26<+discordbot5> And I've known this for far longer than the event has actually existed. 20180604 19:53:50< vn971> @shadowm: that is because you know internals. It shouldn't cloud your judgement as to what real mere mortals add-on developers would be happy to live with.. 20180604 19:54:21<+discordbot5> If you're talking about my judgement being clouded you should read my arguments with the devs about them breaking my campaigns lol 20180604 19:54:56<+discordbot5> Precisely because they love to introduce subtle behaviour changes that have unforeseen consequences for existing add-ons. 20180604 19:55:12<+discordbot5> we're not changing the implementation of move unit 20180604 19:55:17<+discordbot5> At least this is a new thing and it's not going to force you to rewrite and retest hundreds of lines of codes. 20180604 19:55:23<+discordbot5> *code 20180604 19:55:47< vn971> shadowm: OK if there is ground to believe that people rely on current behavior for [move_unit] then we really have no choice but to document it and be over with. 20180604 19:56:11< Ravana_> mortal addon developers should not use unit placed then - "This event is solely intended for special cases where no other event types suffice" - to make this call that no other event works, developer would already know a lot about WML internals 20180604 19:57:12< zookeeper> was there some particular reason why someone implemented the [move_unit] tag so that it doesn't actually perform a normal('ish) move? 20180604 19:57:30<+discordbot5> There wasn't a way to synthetize user actions at the time. 20180604 19:57:36<+discordbot5> I believe there is now since 1.13.x. 20180604 19:57:43< zookeeper> ah, right. 20180604 19:57:50<+discordbot5> not sue what that means 20180604 19:57:54<+discordbot5> (Don't quote me on that, though. I haven't come across the documentation yet.) 20180604 19:58:22<+discordbot5> do you mean [do_command] 20180604 19:58:25< vn971> Done, documented [move_unit] as a valid trigger for "unit placement" event. 20180604 19:58:33< Ravana_> its https://wiki.wesnoth.org/DirectActionsWML#.5Bdo_command.5D but no idea if it allows moves that player would not normally be allowed to do 20180604 19:59:46<+discordbot5> "unit placed" sounds like a better recruit,recall event - imagine you want to give each unit soem bonus, such as a new ability or +1 damage. "unit placed" sound like it takes care about the cases like units placed in debug mode or with [unit]. I assume [move_unit] may end up appling it then multiple time for one unit.,.. so you may have +10 damage then? 20180604 19:59:57< irker147> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 loonycyborg 6a88624f44 wesnothd: restore lan server auto-shutdo AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 20:00:19< Ravana_> vn971: "Units moved on map ([move_unit] and similar)" did you verify it fires for changing units x,y from Lua? 20180604 20:00:32<+discordbot5> or loc 20180604 20:00:40< Ravana_> sevu: "can fire an unlimited number of times for the same unit as long the unit is "placed" several times and the event filter doesn't prevent it" 20180604 20:01:28<+discordbot5> AFTER ONE MILLION YEARS. MY CODE. IT COMPILES. 20180604 20:01:44< vn971> @sevu, that part of the behavior is very much explicitely documented already, probably since forever. I agree ppl could expect this a number of years ago, but now it's too late to even thing of. 20180604 20:01:56< zookeeper> indeed, so it's the author's responsibility to take into account an arbitrary number of possible unit placed triggerings for the same unit. 20180604 20:02:10<+discordbot5> I was up all night last night and tonight because i couldn't fall asleep 20180604 20:02:19<+discordbot5> ive been starting at this goddamn code for 12 hours 20180604 20:02:42<+discordbot5> BUT IT BUILDS 20180604 20:04:17<+discordbot5> crash in prefs tho damn 20180604 20:04:26<+discordbot5> well i did change that thing with the thing 20180604 20:04:27< vn971> @Vultraz -- hehe, similar experience for me trying write code that would beat everyone else-s code on "codecombat". Finally did it, now I'm first by rank among ~5000 submissions. 20180604 20:05:03< vn971> (on one of a couple "maps", anyway.) 20180604 20:05:24<+discordbot5> i swear, master launches 10x faster than 1.14.. 20180604 20:05:27<+discordbot5> :thonk: 20180604 20:07:13<+discordbot5> oh, i see my problem 20180604 20:08:20<+discordbot5> Apps built using OpenGL and OpenCL will continue to run in macOS 10.14, but these legacy technologies are deprecated in macOS 10.14. 20180604 20:08:27<+discordbot5> https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/ 20180604 20:08:41<+discordbot5> blinks 20180604 20:08:47<+discordbot5> I'm not surprised. 20180604 20:08:57<+discordbot5> Apple has left OpenGL users out in the cold for years. 20180604 20:09:02<+discordbot5> guess we have to use vulkan now 20180604 20:09:11<+discordbot5> They managed to fall behind Mesa of all things. 20180604 20:09:15< vn971> > changing units x,y from Lua? 20180604 20:09:15< vn971> that's not possible IIRC, you can't change `x` and `y` from Lua. Or did anything change? 20180604 20:09:54< vn971> Ravana_: if it was allowed, you also could accidentally erase units in the intermediate step of changing `x` but not `y`. 20180604 20:10:07<+discordbot5> it changed 20180604 20:10:09<+discordbot5> the recommend Metal in the next sentence, whatever that is 20180604 20:10:34<+discordbot5> Apple Vulkan 20180604 20:11:05<+discordbot5> vn971: you're now allowed to move on-map units by setting unit.x, unit.y, or unit.loc = {x, y} on a proxy unit 20180604 20:11:10-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 20:11:33<+discordbot5> before you could only set x or y on a private off-map unit 20180604 20:12:30< gfgtdf> wait setting only x or y is allowed aswell? 20180604 20:12:40< vn971> From the wiki https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Units > and there's the possibility one of those might move the unit off the map 20180604 20:12:40< vn971> should we also warn "might move the unit off the map or erase another unit" ? 20180604 20:13:06<+discordbot5> gfgtdf yes 20180604 20:13:13<+discordbot5> you can set x and y individually 20180604 20:13:38<+discordbot5> but i added a concurrent setter (loc) since celmin pointed out by doing it in two steps the unit might get stuck off the map 20180604 20:15:03< vn971> Ravana_: no, "unit placed" event doens't seem to be triggered if you use `unit.loc = {...}` from Lua. 20180604 20:15:40< Ravana_> then the line you added should be only used as example, and not saying that any kind of moving fires it 20180604 20:15:52< irker147> wesnoth: Iris Morelle wesnoth:1.14 79812a853e0e / changelog.md data/lua/wml/kill.lua: Don't allow [kill] animate=yes to scroll to units through fog and shroud https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/79812a853e0e16734cb3d08a375ba9006c9b46d5 20180604 20:16:01< irker147> wesnoth: Iris Morelle wesnoth:master 4e37cdc713d0 / changelog.md data/lua/wml/kill.lua: Don't allow [kill] animate=yes to scroll to units through fog and shroud https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4e37cdc713d054a48b1f31f43cb5511f42626847 20180604 20:16:11< Ravana_> as example, saying that currently it is this way, but is internal logic that might change at any time 20180604 20:16:40< vn971> Ravana_: fair. Updated. 20180604 20:16:56< gfgtdf> for the same reason setting x,y individuall doesn't make sense for on map unit, people will assume that 'u.x = 5; u.y = 5' will have the same effect as 'u.loc = {5,9}' 20180604 20:17:04< vn971> now only [move_unit] is documented to trigger event. 20180604 20:17:45<+discordbot5> .....maybe we should deprecate [move_unit] :p 20180604 20:17:46< vn971> gfgtdf: I totally agree, thought we abandoned the idea of setting x,y separately at the time we discussed it (1-3 months ago)... 20180604 20:18:07< Ravana_> you need to say that people can not rely on move_unit firing that event 20180604 20:18:28< Ravana_> it just happens to currently 20180604 20:19:08< gfgtdf> also for an earler question, yes [do_command] only allows valid moves, it will just stop early when it cannot step on some hex (it can step oer allied units liek normal moves). 20180604 20:19:47<+discordbot5> vn971: discussed it? 20180604 20:19:53<+discordbot5> i never discussed this with you... 20180604 20:20:00<+discordbot5> and i was the one who implemented this 20180604 20:20:36<+discordbot5> @sevu I'll find whoever deprecates [move_unit] and pie them in the face. 20180604 20:20:38<+discordbot5> In their sleep. 20180604 20:20:49<+discordbot5> Mark my word. 20180604 20:20:51<+discordbot5> *words 20180604 20:21:02< gfgtdf> also it has all effects of user moves, forexample interrupting on seeing an enemy unit. 20180604 20:21:38< vn971> Ravana_: @shadowm proposed earlier to document the current behavior, to which I agree to. We can't change it now because of backwards compat. And if we can't change it, it'd better be documented. 20180604 20:22:15< vn971> > and i was the one who implemented this -- yes I know, because we talked when you implemented this.:) I'll fetch history to point the date, min... 20180604 20:23:09<+discordbot5> are you celmin in disguise 20180604 20:23:14<+discordbot5> i clearly remember celmin 20180604 20:24:21< gfgtdf> actually everyone here except vultraz is a big one man show. 20180604 20:25:14< gfgtdf> one* 20180604 20:25:37< Ravana_> vn971: I suggest * Units moved on map with [move_unit] - because [move_unit] works by removing unit, showing animation, and placing new unit. This implementation may change at any time, so in the future [move_unit] might not fire this event. 20180604 20:25:47<+discordbot5> that would explain a lot 20180604 20:26:20-!- gallaecio_ [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Converse confortabelmente. En calquera parte.] 20180604 20:26:20-!- gallaecio [~quassel@188.79.96.255] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Converse confortabelmente. En calquera parte.] 20180604 20:26:53< vn971> @Vultraz 03 Feb ~16:18 UTC. > ultraz: hmm, I wonder what'll happen if I e.g. set x to a meaningful coordinate, and y not. > vultraz: good question, good question > I can probably make the argument a table 20180604 20:26:54< vn971> :) 20180604 20:27:08<+discordbot5> yes 20180604 20:27:10<+discordbot5> that's me 20180604 20:28:19< vn971> Ravana_: is there a possibility that we will ever change the behavior? (Why?) 20180604 20:30:39< Ravana_> vn971: from this I think it might change: "was there some particular reason why someone implemented the [move_unit] tag so that it doesn't actually perform a normal('ish) move?" 20180604 20:33:12< vn971> Ravana_: it's not about why somebody did anything N years ago though, to be honest. It's about the question: can we break stuff to match future developer expectations, or can we not? 20180604 20:34:22<+discordbot5> fuck. crash elsewhere. 20180604 20:34:24<+discordbot5> glorious. 20180604 20:37:16<+discordbot5> probably from acquitinrringifn 20180604 20:37:18<+discordbot5> shared ptr of this 20180604 20:39:25<+discordbot5> oh yeah 20180604 20:39:34<+discordbot5> enable_shared_this_from 20180604 20:39:37<+discordbot5> I mean from_this 20180604 20:39:45<+discordbot5> i need sleep 20180604 20:43:28<+discordbot5> pats Vultraz's head 20180604 20:47:44< Ravana_> another "Ran out of memory. Aborted." from lobby 20180604 20:48:53< Ravana_> thats why I keep 2x 1.14.2 and 1x 1.14.0 online, they won't crash all at once usually 20180604 20:49:23<+discordbot5> is this for the bot you wrote? 20180604 20:50:13< Ravana_> no, normal wesnoth 20180604 20:50:53< Ravana_> for bot I fixed high memory use by writing user events to files, if that user has been offline for more than 2h 20180604 20:54:20< gfgtdf> you know what causes the memory usage? is there a leak? 20180604 20:54:32< gfgtdf> in wesnoth client i mean 20180604 20:56:22< Ravana_> no, but I suspect diff handling https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/3004#issuecomment-394106419 20180604 20:58:07< gfgtdf> hmm its problem the connection buffer if it really happens after 2.5 hours of unresponsiveness. 20180604 20:58:46< gfgtdf> s/problem/probably 20180604 21:52:09-!- fabi [~fabi@wesnoth/developer/fendrin] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180604 22:08:52<+discordbot5> Got a pr approved, now want to delete my local branch. Can anyone give guidance on how to do that using SourceTree? 20180604 22:11:57<+discordbot5> git branch -d? 20180604 22:14:27<+discordbot5> Ah...It seems I was trying to delete it while I had it open, so I guess makes sense that it wasn't working. 20180604 22:14:59<+discordbot5> "git branch -d" like I can do things that aren't a shiny button on my UI :P 20180604 22:16:15<+discordbot5> So my local 1.14 is a little out of date. How do I get it back up to parity with wesnoth/wesnoth? 20180604 22:16:15<+discordbot5> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259976436490829825/453321103092482059/unknown.png 20180604 22:23:34-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180604 22:27:03<+discordbot5> hmmm, 935 commits to push - that sounds not right, rather like you mix master an 1.14 branches somehow 20180604 22:27:58<+discordbot5> commits have been ported between 1.14 and master with git cherry-pick 20180604 22:28:09<+discordbot5> and for git, these commits are completely different things 20180604 22:33:42-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180604 22:34:02< gfgtdf> Ravana_: coudl you test this patch for the mp lobby issue https://github.com/gfgtdf/wesnoth/tree/plobby 20180604 22:34:22< gfgtdf> (its just one simple commit) 20180604 22:37:07< Ravana_> cloning 20180604 22:38:54<+discordbot5> So... to write sth more helpful.... you have multiple branches for the multiple PRs..and the master and 1.14 branch. It makes life easier to not commit to master or 1.14 but too branch of a new branch from these branches 🌱 Because in that case you can allways switch to master ( or 1.14) and pull 20180604 22:39:18<+discordbot5> without having to worry about resolving conflicts or such 20180604 22:39:30<+discordbot5> or in generell without having to worry 20180604 22:44:10<+discordbot5> I do appreciate you trying to be more helpful but I'm afraid that means nothing to me. Not to worry, though. I'll wait until these branches I currently have open are closed and then I can do some kind of purge to get me back to where I ought to be, I suppose. 20180604 22:51:44<+discordbot5> Maybe try to figure out on what branch you currently are atm - and how to switch branches with your gui 20180604 22:54:35<+discordbot5> I know how to do that and which branch I'm on. (Don't worry about it, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced I'll just leave it alone for now, I really don't want to screw up current prs through my git incompetence as well.) 20180604 22:54:44<+discordbot5> Cheers anyways. 20180604 22:56:44<+discordbot5> whatever you do, you won't crew up the PRs as long as you do not push to the branches of the PRs - any messup is locally for the time being :p but yeah, it's maybe not the time to talk about git now 20180604 22:58:21< gfgtdf> Ravana_, does it download the whle 3 g repo? if os it's probably easyer to apply the patch https://github.com/gfgtdf/wesnoth/commit/04e0a8be24b795f627a31352d13425577991c2e2.patch manually to your 1.14 20180604 23:04:06< Ravana_> that would be faster, but I don't trust it to not break my current state there at "MP Lobby: reduced frequency of network polls (100ms -> 1000ms)" 20180604 23:10:09<+discordbot5> licensing question 20180604 23:10:18<+discordbot5> if someone drew a sprite under the GNU GPL 20180604 23:10:32<+discordbot5> and I want to animate it, would it be possible for me to release the frames under CC BY-SA 20180604 23:10:39<+discordbot5> animation frames* 20180604 23:11:21< Ravana_> no 20180604 23:12:24<+discordbot5> hrm, very well 20180604 23:16:13-!- irker147 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180604 23:33:50< Ravana_> compiling 20180604 23:36:56-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-81-40-192.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 23:36:57< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#1148 (plobby - 04e0a8b : gfgtdf): The build has errored. 20180604 23:36:57< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/388019118 20180604 23:36:57-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-81-40-192.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180604 23:48:27-!- irker106 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 23:48:27< irker106> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Severin Glöckner 05e053ca43 NR S5a: more bugfixes AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180604 23:51:12-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:45c4:1ad6:318c:ea07] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180604 23:53:41-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180604 23:55:51<+discordbot5> @sevu "the recommend Metal in the next sentence, whatever that is" Metal essentially fills the same role as Vulkan and DirectX 12 for games. Though despite all the bellyaching by people about why Apple didn't just use Vulkan, Metal was actually made available for use at about the same time as planning for Vulkan was getting started. These days, if you're aiming to use Vulkan and want to target macos, you'd probably have to 20180604 23:55:52<+discordbot5> use moltenvk since there are no Vulkan drivers for Apple hardware. 20180604 23:56:31< celticminstrel> IOW it means (in the worst case) OpenGL will cease to be cross-platform. 20180604 23:57:28<+discordbot5> it depends on if deprecated means "to be removed soon" or "please stop using it", really. 20180604 23:57:39< celticminstrel> True, but knowing Apple I figure the former. 20180604 23:57:46<+discordbot5> probably 20180604 23:59:09<+discordbot5> maybe sticking with software rendering isn't thaaaat bad..... CPUs are pretty strong nowadays (not totally serious) 20180604 23:59:28<+discordbot5> no they don't plan to drop opengl in favor of either vk or metal 20180604 23:59:57<+discordbot5> opengl will remain cross-platform as long as it exists --- Log closed Tue Jun 05 00:00:35 2018