--- Log opened Tue Jun 26 00:00:08 2018 20180626 00:34:49-!- irker751 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180626 01:06:56-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 01:07:02-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 01:29:40< celticminstrel> TBH if I were in charge I'd probably be inclined to just give these people back the option of swapping their ToD graphics just so people stop complaining about it. It's not like having the option hurts me. 20180626 01:31:02-!- irker664 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 01:31:02< irker664> wesnoth: DisherProject wesnoth:master 902cf6dcfb6f / src/ (reports.cpp units/attack_type.cpp units/attack_type.hpp): Fix weapon specials marked as inactive https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/902cf6dcfb6fd1d25e403acc8a57c8e16a61535b 20180626 01:31:29<+discordbot2> They wouldn't be asking for it if someone hadn't decided to add it in the first place for no good reason. 20180626 01:32:09< celticminstrel> True, I still don't fully understand why it was considered necessary in the first place (though I think someone did give me a decent explanation awhile ago). 20180626 01:33:28< celticminstrel> You seem to be implying though that someone just added it on a whim, rather than in response to a request? 20180626 01:34:50<+discordbot2> Either way is the same thing. 20180626 01:35:03< celticminstrel> I dunno about that... 20180626 01:35:20<+discordbot2> Should I request that Wesnoth have an option to turn trolls into teddy bears just because I like teddy bears better than trolls? 20180626 01:35:48< celticminstrel> In any case it looks like the feature is doable via addon so I guess it no longer really matters. 20180626 01:35:49<+discordbot2> Or to remove allusions to magic from prose just because I grew up being told magic is heresy? 20180626 01:36:22<+discordbot2> It's the exact same thing with the ToD pictures. Just because someone likes it their way doesn't mean mainline has to cater to that. 20180626 01:36:54<+discordbot2> There are a lot of other aspects in games that are unlike real life and people manage to learn and cope with them just fine. 20180626 01:43:42< celticminstrel> FTR I see no reason to not merge 3281 @Vultraz 20180626 02:10:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 02:11:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 04:19:15-!- lilinitsy_ [~demonitsy@75-168-13-136.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 05:00:51-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180626 06:03:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 06:03:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 06:23:04<+discordbot2> I'm not sure if it's ok for me to discuss it here (tell me if it's not, I really don't want to cause trouble or start flamewars), but @shadowm you are awfully condescending. Imagine Wesnoth shows time with a clock that goes anti-clockwise for no reason at all. That's how it feels to me. Years ago someone implemented an option to make it run clockwise. I don't know why it was made as an option and not simply changed to be clockwise 20180626 06:23:05<+discordbot2> for everyone, but that's fine. Apparently there were many people who got used to the way it is displayed by default. However, that option was suddenly deleted on a whim, as far as I can tell without asking the community for an opinion or checking in any way if people use that option. It is not a big deal, but I honestly do not understand this attitude to do something against many players wishes just because you can. 20180626 06:24:34<+discordbot2> Okay? 20180626 06:24:53<+discordbot2> I said they wouldn't be asking for it if it hadn't been implemented in the first place. 20180626 06:26:03<+discordbot2> you know it was implemented after a heated discussion and requests 20180626 06:26:14<+discordbot2> Do I? 20180626 06:26:22<+discordbot2> yes, you linked to it on your blog 20180626 06:26:23<+discordbot2> Because this is honestly news to me. 20180626 06:26:27<+discordbot2> found it by accident yesterday 20180626 06:26:39<+discordbot2> I remember it was kept because of a heated discussion. 20180626 06:27:25<+discordbot2> that too 20180626 06:28:32<+discordbot2> I'm going to need a link because that was way too long ago. 20180626 06:28:50<+discordbot2> yeah, I'm looking, can't find it yet 20180626 06:29:09<+discordbot2> you either linked directly to the old forum thread or the link was in the IRC log you linked in your blog 20180626 06:29:53<+discordbot2> anyway, that's not important, I was now replying to your message comparing this to changing trolls to teady bears 20180626 06:31:01<+discordbot2> Yeah, I agree with that. An option to change trolls to teddy bears would be much more effort to implement and maintain. Whereas an option to change the order of ToD images would need almost no effort. 20180626 06:31:18<+discordbot2> It's not a matter of effort. 20180626 06:31:47<+discordbot2> The problem is having an option that does not really provide any concrete benefits other than it existing. 20180626 06:31:56<+discordbot2> also changing trolls to teddy bears is a meaningful change to game content, while ToD change is to the game UI 20180626 06:32:20<+discordbot2> Whether an option provides benefits is not for you to decide. 20180626 06:32:25<+discordbot2> The players decide that. 20180626 06:32:28<+discordbot2> it provides benefits for people who prefer it, as it's easier for them to tell quickly what time it is in game 20180626 06:32:28<+discordbot2> Because if you are going to make this argument, I'd really like the option to make fonts smaller back. 20180626 06:32:51<+discordbot2> you have the option to make fonts smaller 20180626 06:32:56<+discordbot2> it's the classic theme, isn't it 20180626 06:33:10<+discordbot2> That only affects the theme UI portion of the game. 20180626 06:33:14<+discordbot2> yeah, I know 20180626 06:33:18<+discordbot2> Everything else is still huge. 20180626 06:33:27<+discordbot2> but that is, I imagine, simply difficult to implement 20180626 06:33:33<+discordbot2> with the new GUI that is 20180626 06:33:35<+discordbot2> It was there for a while. 20180626 06:33:36<+discordbot2> The problem with changing UI font size is that it breaks the layout all over the place. 20180626 06:33:43<+discordbot2> Fixing it would require huge effort. 20180626 06:33:44<+discordbot2> ok, I don't know about that, so I'll shut up 20180626 06:34:22<+discordbot2> in general having UI that can be scaled up or down would be really great and I would definitely support it, but I know that it is not a simple thing 20180626 06:35:00<+discordbot2> Anyway okay, this is the 10th time I have this discussion with people who for some reason believe the sun moves from west to east, and I'm not really having it again. 20180626 06:35:29<+discordbot2> we believe sun moves from left to right, not west to east 20180626 06:35:50<+discordbot2> On a standard compass the west is to the left of east. 20180626 06:36:03<+discordbot2> I can understand that east = right is a very strong connection due to how we draw maps, but it is an abstract connection, not a one from real life 20180626 06:36:27<+discordbot2> also, I think you wrote somewhere that you live in the southern hemisphere, so for you real life matches this 20180626 06:36:45<+discordbot2> From my usual vantage point the sun moves from front right to back left. 20180626 06:36:48<+discordbot2> So yes. 20180626 06:36:58<+discordbot2> Assuming I'm facing east, which I usually am. 20180626 06:37:33<+discordbot2> But I don't really believe that's as important as what it looks like on a compass or world globe. 20180626 06:37:54<+discordbot2> Again, your opinion doesn't matter. 20180626 06:38:01<+discordbot2> It's better to let the player decide. 20180626 06:38:03<+discordbot2> just the fact that it is from front right to back left doesn't tell us if it moves to the right or to the left : 20180626 06:38:24<+discordbot2> Okay, so I am being accused of removing the option is what I'm getting from this? 20180626 06:38:41<+discordbot2> I'm not accusing you of anything, not sure how did you get there 20180626 06:39:07<+discordbot2> shadowm, you are in the southern hemisphere, IIRC. For us northerners, the sun moves from left to right. 20180626 06:39:08<+discordbot2> I just disagree with the decision to remove the option (which was Vultraz's decision, I know) and thus shooting down arguments in favor of removing it. 20180626 06:39:09<+discordbot2> Well, you seem to believe that my opinion on this matter somehow wears enough weight to decide to call me out on my condescending attitude? 20180626 06:39:42<+discordbot2> As I recall, I tried to remove it before, found resistance as well, so I let it stay. 20180626 06:39:43<+discordbot2> no, your condescending attitude was what made me call it out 20180626 06:39:54<+discordbot2> Also, I did not create the ToD pictures, a northerner did presumably. 20180626 06:40:13<+discordbot2> Wesnoth is set on totally different planet too 😛 20180626 06:40:29<+discordbot2> so there can be no guaratees on how sun moves in the first place 20180626 06:40:59<+discordbot2> yeah, I am assuming it is either rotating the other way or... what is the English word, sloped the other way? 20180626 06:41:05<+discordbot2> like I've said before, at points there are TWO suns 20180626 06:41:20<+discordbot2> people tried to make it THREE suns 20180626 06:41:24<+discordbot2> (in-universe) 20180626 06:41:39<+discordbot2> Well, I'm sorry about my condescending attitude. I'll avoid weighing in on this stuff in the future since like I've said before it's not really my business anymore. 20180626 06:41:54<+discordbot2> I firmly believe that the more magic and unrealistic elements you introduce, the more grunted in reality the other aspects of the piece should be 20180626 06:42:01<+discordbot2> in books, movies or games 20180626 06:42:30<+discordbot2> but anyway, this is not about whether Wesnoth sun moves this or that way, it's about making UI communicating clearly to the player 20180626 06:43:05<+discordbot2> https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/1905#issuecomment-399794780 tuxlifan gets it very well. 20180626 06:43:07<+discordbot2> Only thing that I'd expect to be clear is whether it's day or night 20180626 06:43:19<+discordbot2> @shadowm I hope I didn't offend you, that was not my goal 20180626 06:43:45<+discordbot2> in which direction sun moves matters little for clarity of that 20180626 06:44:00<+discordbot2> to me, quite a lot. 20180626 06:44:16<+discordbot2> and its movement direction could be nothing more than artistic convention, irrespective of workings of the planet 20180626 06:44:20<+discordbot2> It might be better to use text instead of images to communicate the ToD phase... 20180626 06:46:42<+discordbot2> I believed, 1905 settled on making mainline sun and moon move left-to-right, which I'm happy with. But implementation details interfered. I'm considering putting in some work to synchronize morning-day-evening-night pictures in the current graphics, until the new graphics are ready. And then, maybe, doing it again 😃 20180626 06:50:42<+discordbot2> I'm really starting to lose my patience on this matter. The option was removed. It's not coming back. If the graphics get redone I might ask they be drawn the other way. No, I did not consult with players before removing it. I was under no obligation to do so. There's an addon now that solve the problem. Download that if you really want the damn thing. This backwards-facing attitude where the slightest change is discouraged 20180626 06:50:43<+discordbot2> because it might piss off a few people is toxic, and I'm doing my best to move away from that. 20180626 06:51:02-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 06:51:20<+discordbot2> Your attitude of ignoring player feedback is toxic. 20180626 06:51:39<+discordbot2> Can we make a poll on the forum? 20180626 06:51:42<+discordbot2> No 20180626 06:51:47<+discordbot2> yeah, I didn't want to be that blunt, but it's hard to disagree with jyrkive 20180626 06:54:07<+discordbot2> I don't understand why it is not possible to discuss it politely or politely say you don't want to discuss it, instead of telling me I have backwards-facing attitude 20180626 06:54:10<+discordbot2> Sorry, that's not rational. This percentage is what makes the difference between "piss off a few people" and "piss off the majority of players". 20180626 06:54:38<+discordbot2> the poll would not have many voters I'm afraid 20180626 06:54:45<+discordbot2> like the one made several years ago 20180626 06:54:52<+discordbot2> (which I still cannot find) 20180626 06:55:17<+discordbot2> @Landiss Agreed. Shutting down discussion and claiming that people who disagree with you have a "backwards-facing attitude" and are "toxic" is a highly rude thing to do. 20180626 06:55:32<+discordbot2> If there would be 20, it's already a statistically significant selection. 20180626 06:55:46<+discordbot2> If you disagree with other people, present counterarguments. 20180626 06:56:02<+discordbot2> If you run out of counterarguments, maybe you're wrong. Consider the possibility. 20180626 06:56:02<+discordbot2> oh, found another one: https://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4586&hilit=sun+hemisphere 20180626 06:56:22<+discordbot2> 56% said left-to-right sun movement is more intuitive for them 20180626 06:56:27<+discordbot2> (Note that you can point out if your opponents are repeating themselves, of course.) 20180626 06:56:32<+discordbot2> Gentlemen, discussing personalities is also toxic. Can we please withold, even if feelings are touched? 20180626 06:58:06<+discordbot2> That's some actual fact, thanks. And facts is what should matter, as opposed to opinions. 20180626 06:59:25<+discordbot2> I looked at the commit history to make sure, I did demote the option to Advanced Preferences first as part of a larger task to clean up the Preferences UI. I probably did advocate for its eventual permanent removal by Vultraz, but evidently for at least few people its availability really seems more important than I originally thought. Would it really be that much of a pain to revert its removal? 20180626 06:59:57<+discordbot2> Advanced preferences options are the cheapest kind of option the game can have. 20180626 07:00:15<+discordbot2> Literally just WML and some checks at the sites that actually need to check for their state. 20180626 07:03:41<+discordbot2> Tbh, if it's something that can be altered by an addon, it would seem ideal if any code complexity could be pulled out of wesnoth proper. Just my 2¢ on the issue. Wesnoth's always had a "options are bad" thing in our philosophy/mission statement because a large library of little conditionals like this - each perfectly fine in isolation - quickly grows into the flying code monster. 20180626 07:04:24<+discordbot2> I disagree with that argument, too. 20180626 07:04:33<+discordbot2> This is probably an argument in favor of "composition over configuration". 20180626 07:04:52<+discordbot2> There indeed are cases where options interact with each other and make the code significantly more complex, but it's not the case here. 20180626 07:05:20<+discordbot2> "each perfectly fine in isolation" 20180626 07:05:31<+discordbot2> oh, here's the thread I was thinking about earlier: 20180626 07:05:32<+discordbot2> https://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4617&hilit=sun+west+east 20180626 07:05:42<+discordbot2> I don't see how it would interfere with any other option. 20180626 07:05:47<+discordbot2> It wouldn't. 20180626 07:06:00<+discordbot2> But it'd have hooks in e.g. the hud drawing code. 20180626 07:06:19<+discordbot2> And according to the poll linked earlier, player preferences are an almost perfect 50-50 split, which IMHO warrants an option in Wesnoth itself. 20180626 07:06:26<+discordbot2> the issue of number of options was addressed in the thread as well: " I really prefer minimizing all possible options. Gameplay options are the worst, but I also don't like other kinds of options. In fact, even in non-game projects I have worked on, I have tried to minimize the number of options and preferences. However, in this case I think that there is a substantial enough group of people on either side that an option is 20180626 07:06:27<+discordbot2> justified. David" 20180626 07:08:18<+discordbot2> If the addon is something entirely divorced from the codebase, then it's basically applying the same maintenance trick that git did with it's distributed code model - it puts the onus of making it work on the people who care about it, rather than being something the core dev team has to worry about. 20180626 07:08:34<+discordbot2> Which most importantly, helps improve the core dev team's speed at improving things. 20180626 07:08:49<+discordbot2> I don't recall the option having added any maintenance burden at all. 20180626 07:09:18< zookeeper> i don't personally care which way the sun goes since i don't think i've ever tried to intuit the ToD based on that, but clearly there's many people for whom it seems to matter and there's presumably very little potential maintenance burden, so... i see no reason not to have it except out of various principles. i mean, surely these discussions and requests about it are more of a burden than 20180626 07:09:18< zookeeper> just having the option. that said, maybe the add-on workaround is discoverable enough. 20180626 07:10:35<+discordbot2> The maintenance burden it can have amounts to flipping the image prior to rendering. 20180626 07:10:41<+discordbot2> That's literally 3 lines of code. 20180626 07:10:58<+discordbot2> Which very likely don't need to be changed ever again. 20180626 07:11:11<+discordbot2> (As an entry in Advanced Preferences. If it came back to Display it'd be a bit more than that.) 20180626 07:11:44<+discordbot2> It's certainly adding an enormous bureaucratic burden, though, which really seems to be one of this project's biggest bugbears. 😬 20180626 07:11:52<+discordbot2> it was in the advanced preferences for a long time, I think it's completely fine for everyone to have it there 20180626 07:22:15<+discordbot2> Yes, to be fair, the code that actually did the drawing wasn't that long. Restoring it would not be hard. But I object, strongly, on principle. Such a option should never be in a game, and now there's an addon that does it, so use that. 20180626 07:23:14<+discordbot2> Just do consider that spending anybody's energy - whether your own, or others, on something that's really a textbook case of bikeshedding like this takes a lot of time away from much more important improvements that could be made to the project. The other thing is that - if changing anything is a minefield of having to get consensus unanimous approval, don't be surprised when nothing about the project improves or changes for a 20180626 07:23:14<+discordbot2> very long time. The sign of a healthy, evolving product is growing pains. I really don't give a hoot about this particular issue, but it's pretty sad to see Wesnoth falling into the sort of ossification that dooms most long-running community projects. If you want people to be heavy-lifters and get a lot done, you don't even need to give them a carté blanche. But occasionally, if they're doing a bunch of heavy lifting on something, 20180626 07:23:15<+discordbot2> "their paycheck" is allowing them to make the occasional unquestioned shot-call about how something's going to be done. Sometimes such things are entirely arbitrary, but if it helps the emotional health of the person doing it, it's essentially the currency they're being paid with to do the work. 20180626 07:24:31-!- irker664 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180626 07:24:40<+discordbot2> Right, but I somehow doubt he'd have even thought of removing it if I hadn't complained about its existence in at least two or three occasions in the first place. 20180626 07:25:15<+discordbot2> So calling the removal of the option something that helps his emotional health seems rather far fetched with that antecedent in mind. 20180626 07:26:12<+discordbot2> I think another point that some people often forget is that ultimately Wesnoth is a community project and there isn't a single person able to make permanent irreversible decisions about things. 20180626 07:26:34<+discordbot2> In the worst case, 6 years from now someone will just bring it back while whining about how xyz past developer couldn't do so to save everyone some grief. 20180626 07:26:46<+discordbot2> Right - exactly. 20180626 07:26:55<+discordbot2> Much like we ourselves have done while fixing legacy bugs and shortcomings of the UI framework we use. 20180626 07:27:32<+discordbot2> I'm saying that whilst you have someone touching the code right now, it's sensible to let them "furnish the desk to taste" whilst sitting down for their work. 20180626 07:28:26<+discordbot2> People who are willing to do heavy-lifting with C++ gui libraries are rare birds. 😬 20180626 07:29:39<+discordbot2> And a problem it causes is that as much as Vultraz can repeat "the option is not coming back", he doesn't have the authority to ensure it for all eternity. So it's easily possible that players will still continue to complain about not having a preference about the ToD images, in the hope that such an option would indeed return in the end. In which case not having the option likely slows down Wesnoth development more than having 20180626 07:29:40<+discordbot2> it would (since debating about the option takes our energy as well). 20180626 07:29:55< zookeeper> i don't think it's entirely irrelevant that all energy spent on this is because of the option's removal, not because of having or keeping it. 20180626 07:30:11<+discordbot2> bows out 20180626 07:32:53<+discordbot2> Then let us stop debating it. I keep trying to shut these discussions down, and instead I get told I'm "rude" for doing so. 20180626 07:33:10<+discordbot2> I seem to have caught the tailend of a party here. 20180626 07:33:21<+discordbot2> Debates will not stop as long as there is a point for debating. 20180626 07:33:35<+discordbot2> That is, as long as it's possible that the debate can change something. 20180626 07:34:16<+discordbot2> Obviously, the easiest way to stop this debate would be to restore the option. 20180626 07:37:48<+discordbot2> Mostly this though I really don't give a hoot about this particular issue, but it's pretty sad to see Wesnoth falling into the sort of ossification that dooms most long-running community projects. If you want people to be heavy-lifters and get a lot done, you don't even need to give them a carté blanche. But occasionally, if they're doing a bunch of heavy lifting on something, "their paycheck" is allowing them to make the 20180626 07:37:49<+discordbot2> occasional unquestioned shot-call about how something's going to be done. Contributers in open source are not all equal. 20180626 07:38:28<+discordbot2> What do you mean by that? 20180626 07:39:10<+discordbot2> Contributions are all equal and should be treated as such, but a contributor's opinion should have as much weight as they contribute. 20180626 07:39:30<+discordbot2> For the record, I have no idea who you are, or who's even in charge of Wesnoth or what parts who is in charge of, so I don't know how much weight your opinion should have. 20180626 07:39:48<+discordbot2> I think there needs to be some balance. 20180626 07:40:04<+discordbot2> There's been plenty of prolific contributors in the past with opinions. 20180626 07:40:19<+discordbot2> Not all of their opinions have proven to be helpful in the long term. 20180626 07:40:21<+discordbot2> The general way to handle it is: whoever works on a certain area of the game gets to make minor decisions about the said part. 20180626 07:40:56<+discordbot2> Vultraz is the lead programmer who works on everything and thus currently holds the highest authority. 20180626 07:42:46<+discordbot2> define minor decisions and what is the procedure for not minor decisions? 20180626 07:42:51<+discordbot2> What ever happened to the guy at the top of the credits? David Sirp or something? 20180626 07:43:22<+discordbot2> In general, a minor decision is anything that isn't controversial. 20180626 07:43:41<+discordbot2> For example, whether the return value of a function should be a boolean or an enumerated type. 20180626 07:44:18-!- irker495 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 07:44:18< irker495> wesnoth: Andras Szell wesnoth:1.14 cc04bc764a2c / data/lua/wml/message.lua: Fix: add redraw to narrator's message so village count is refreshed https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/cc04bc764a2c80d5a0e3064f7f0b9ea7fe5c87dc 20180626 07:44:24<+discordbot2> ok, I see 20180626 07:45:04<+discordbot2> @lilinitsy I'm not really familiar with Wesnoth organization as well, but isn't he the one who recently implemented an option to lessen the random factor of the game? 20180626 07:45:17<+discordbot2> I'm not the guy to ask :) 20180626 07:45:32<+discordbot2> I've written one thing for the game that still hasn't been merged. 20180626 07:45:45< irker495> wesnoth: Andras Szell wesnoth:master 1ea4149a4456 / data/lua/wml/message.lua: Fix: add redraw to narrator's message so village count is refreshed https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/1ea4149a4456ab8713dde4fbfcdd446b5762adcf 20180626 07:45:56<+discordbot2> Regarding "the procedure for not minor decisions": I have been talking about how open source projects in general and not Wesnoth in particular, and I continue to do so here. AFAIK, the more common option in large projects is some sort of democracy, where the majority of developers wins. And in smaller projects the lead developer tends to have the exclusive right to make major decisions. 20180626 07:46:26<+discordbot2> @Landiss Yes, that's correct. 20180626 07:46:56<+discordbot2> I know of a few projects that are completely up to the main developer, even to the point of rewriting many contributions such as server mods to be how they like it, often without consultation. 20180626 07:47:22<+discordbot2> Commercial projects are like that, too. 20180626 07:47:43<+discordbot2> In the project I develop at work, I hold the ultimate authority to make technological decisions. 20180626 07:48:16<+discordbot2> (Although I have never invoked it to override Tomi's decisions. I strongly prefer to discuss things instead and respect his opinions.) 20180626 07:48:19<+discordbot2> commercial games have game design separated from coding, usually 20180626 07:48:28<+discordbot2> I was talking about opensource projects. 20180626 07:48:34<+discordbot2> and it is usually the designer to decide things like implementing some option or not 20180626 07:49:04<+discordbot2> Indeed, options are an area of game design, and I don't get to make those calls. 20180626 07:49:48<+discordbot2> additionally, gaming companies usually take into account player wishes, in some way 20180626 07:50:23<+discordbot2> that doesn't mean design by players, but if players are very opposed to some change, the design will at least think about it again 20180626 07:50:40<+discordbot2> at least that is the case in my company 20180626 07:50:51<+discordbot2> You'd hope, but Quake devs haven't been very good at that :D 20180626 07:52:11-!- lilinitsy_ [~demonitsy@75-168-13-136.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 07:53:00<+discordbot2> Dave is still around but aside from that singular contribution he's been focused on his own projects since 2009. 20180626 07:53:03<+discordbot2> it is very difficult to judge what the community really wants, it is not one person after all - and usually a very small part of the community is voicing its opinion. Plus, with the design, players might think something would be good for the game even if it wouldn't. It's not easy to judge this. 20180626 07:53:26<+discordbot2> by the way, what happened with the Wesnoth 2 project? I think I read something about that a couple years ago 20180626 07:53:26<+discordbot2> Well, a forum poll would be an easy way to check... 20180626 07:53:49<+discordbot2> AFAIK, the wesnoth2 project is dead. 20180626 07:54:46<+discordbot2> well, about forum polls, it depends what you want to check 20180626 07:55:13<+discordbot2> but don't make a mistake thinking a forum poll will give you an opinion of all players 20180626 07:55:20<+discordbot2> minority use forum and minority of that will vote 20180626 07:55:44<+discordbot2> Most likely it would give the opinion of all regular forum users. 20180626 07:55:56< zookeeper> in any collaborative volunteer project, you always need some (high, i'd say) level of cohesion. for example if half of developers think change X is terrible and shouldn't be made, then making that change is counterproductive regardless of who's decision it technically is. if a minority thinks the change is bad, then maybe you can still make it as long as you don't do it dismissively, and 20180626 07:55:56< zookeeper> so forth. 20180626 07:56:03<+discordbot2> (Especially if you make sure to offer an "I don't care" option so that everyone gets to vote.) 20180626 07:57:13<+discordbot2> @Landiss the wesnoth 2 prototype basically died, yes. 20180626 07:57:21<+discordbot2> zookeeper: Yeah like I said there needs to be a balance. 20180626 07:57:30<+discordbot2> I see 20180626 07:58:15-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 08:05:48<+discordbot2> Re Wesnoth 2, reusing the IP for a proof of concept was a mistake in the first place. 20180626 08:06:09< zookeeper> if there had been much vocal opposition to the new water graphics because of the performance issues and/or many people just hated the look in general, then i like to think i would have (somewhat grudgingly, perhaps) agreed to revert it and try to come up with something else, even if the objections had come from purely non-artist devs who technically don't make art decisions. well, at least 20180626 08:06:10< zookeeper> i don't recall anyone clearly saying they considered the new graphics a regression. 20180626 08:06:27<+discordbot2> I saw it wasn't as well received on the forums as the people in charge hoped it would be. 20180626 08:06:30-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 08:07:00<+discordbot2> If they had waited a little to refine its design before throwing in allusions to Wesnoth it'd have worked out better. 20180626 08:07:25<+discordbot2> I don't like the new water for reference. 20180626 08:07:34<+discordbot2> But you already knew that. 20180626 08:08:16<+discordbot2> And its not because of the animations but rather because it embraces that trend of making our terrain graphics dull and desaturated even further than its predecessor. 20180626 08:08:57< irker495> wesnoth/wesnoth:master DisherProject 902cf6dcfb Fix weapon specials marked as inactive AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180626 08:09:07<+discordbot2> No one else seems to care (no one cared about the rest of the terrains receiving that treatment in 1.9.x) so meh. 20180626 08:10:15<+discordbot2> it's difficult to notice if you don't know about the change 20180626 08:10:37<+discordbot2> I have recently installed and checked several old version of wesnoth and what striked me was the difference in terrain graphics saturation, especially water 20180626 08:10:41<+discordbot2> I didn't remember it was like that 20180626 08:10:55<+discordbot2> Agreed. 20180626 08:11:20<+discordbot2> I have been playing since 0.9.5 or 0.9.6 (I always forget which) back in 2005. 20180626 08:11:23<+discordbot2> The first version of Wesnoth I played was a 1.13.x-dev version that already had the new water. 20180626 08:11:28<+discordbot2> It didn't look off to me at all. 20180626 08:11:34<+discordbot2> And contributing since 1.3.9. 20180626 08:11:40<+discordbot2> (2007) 20180626 08:12:30<+discordbot2> I can't even say since when I play, but as I had big breaks, I couldn't really notice all of the things that changed between the versions I played 20180626 08:12:43<+discordbot2> Jyrki I take it you came after seeing that call for help vultraz wrote for me? 20180626 08:12:52<+discordbot2> except major ones, like added new campaigns or changes in the campaign maps 20180626 08:12:55<+discordbot2> Yes, that's correct. 20180626 08:13:43<+discordbot2> The reason why I started contributing to Wesnoth is that I wanted to have some open source C++ experience to show to potential employers. 20180626 08:14:14<+discordbot2> So when I heard about the call for help, I figured that Wesnoth would be a suitable project. 20180626 08:14:44<+discordbot2> About half a year later I compiled Wesnoth from source and started playing The South Guard to figure out how the game works. 20180626 08:15:07<+discordbot2> Playing through TSG took another half a year, and when I finished it, I started contributing. 20180626 08:25:59< zookeeper> @shadowm yeah, i knew you didn't like it. but sadly, since [all the reasons you probably know]... 20180626 08:27:23<+discordbot2> Anyway I don't particularly care since it's not going to taint my retinas or anything. 20180626 08:27:37<+discordbot2> I'm not into making big ocean maps either. 20180626 08:28:28< zookeeper> it's a good trade! because i think the old water nearly burned my eyes. 20180626 08:28:58< zookeeper> well, okay, only the tropical one. 20180626 09:04:10-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-bmbxksjzlpoyrija] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 09:13:59< Ravana_> I say again that this addon I made completely relies on undocumented behavior that might change at any time 20180626 09:14:14< Ravana_> so it is not reliable enough to be considered reason not to do this for core 20180626 09:59:51-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-bmbxksjzlpoyrija] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180626 10:02:04-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-azmmctdadhdcnghm] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 11:02:11-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-laktshfmekpapqcz] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 11:04:53-!- vladimirslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-azmmctdadhdcnghm] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20180626 11:09:24-!- irker495 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180626 11:49:30-!- gfg [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:2975:fe68:8e18:bd48] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 11:54:21-!- gfg [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:2975:fe68:8e18:bd48] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180626 11:56:25-!- hryniuk [~hryniuk@78.8.107.206] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:04:58-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@121.222.147.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180626 12:11:11-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-laktshfmekpapqcz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180626 12:13:03-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-vzvivrycdqjnnymf] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:21:12-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:22:01-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180626 12:22:08-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:27:57-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180626 12:30:29-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:51:57-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-elfttofgwiprjqmt] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:53:02-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-vzvivrycdqjnnymf] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20180626 12:54:17-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-jciztqgueoqgcyph] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 12:56:45-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-elfttofgwiprjqmt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180626 13:01:46-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-cobuubnoadgxelif] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 13:04:33-!- vslavik [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-jciztqgueoqgcyph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180626 13:14:51-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 13:15:30-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 13:44:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 13:44:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 14:01:20-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 14:01:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 14:28:15-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-cobuubnoadgxelif] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180626 14:29:05-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-gonyhgrmzaywofah] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 14:38:31-!- irker124 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 14:38:31< irker124> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Andras Szell cc04bc764a Fix: add redraw to narrator's message so AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180626 14:50:09-!- gfgt [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180626 15:31:48-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 15:34:26<+discordbot2> Opinion: we should release steam release announcement before update or at time of update. Every time there are few players in wesnoth's steam community and even through steam's DM system asking about what's new. 20180626 15:34:58<+discordbot2> Example: https://steamcommunity.com/app/599390/discussions/0/1697175413684570129/ 20180626 15:35:00<+discordbot2> hmmmm 20180626 15:35:12<+discordbot2> but the announcement isn't prepared until later 20180626 15:36:10<+discordbot2> We can do it like for example PHP project do 20180626 15:36:55<+discordbot2> they make release packages, and release them (after testing) after ~4 days with announcement 20180626 15:36:59<+discordbot2> well, since the steam announcement is just 20180626 15:37:02<+discordbot2> the changelog 20180626 15:37:08<+discordbot2> we can probably do that right away 20180626 15:37:15<+discordbot2> post it, it is 20180626 15:37:29<+discordbot2> ill do that with 1.14.4 20180626 15:37:59<+discordbot2> thanks 😃 20180626 15:40:54-!- gfg [~androirc@tmo-116-79.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20180626 15:48:11-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc129.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 16:03:54-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 16:04:00-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 16:07:58< Ravana_> seems that observer icon is displayed even when user has side http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1530029078.png 20180626 16:09:39-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 16:11:30-!- gfg [~androirc@ersc129.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180626 16:13:49< Soliton> issue #2357 20180626 16:14:10-!- gfgt [~androirc@ersc143.goemobile.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180626 16:16:12-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:2975:fe68:8e18:bd48] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 16:22:29-!- gfgt [~androirc@2001:638:60e:834:2975:fe68:8e18:bd48] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20180626 16:23:22< Ravana_> good 20180626 16:33:35-!- hryniuk [~hryniuk@78.8.107.206] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180626 16:38:35-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 16:38:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 16:53:14< irker124> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Andras Szell 1ea4149a44 Fix: add redraw to narrator's message so AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180626 17:04:12-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 17:06:16<+discordbot2> @Vultraz @hrubymar10 We can push the Steam announcement much faster now that it doesn't need to be done by hand beyond copy-paste. 20180626 17:06:45<+discordbot2> What I was thinking 20180626 17:06:56<+discordbot2> It still needs to be done after at least one platform is ready otherwise people will be asking "WHERES THE UPDATE". 20180626 17:28:11-!- vslavik__ [vslavik@nat/redhat/x-gonyhgrmzaywofah] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180626 17:30:18< irker124> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:1.14 a094ca1366a2 / changelog.md src/editor/map/map_context.cpp: Fixed saving a map as a scenario not enabling scenario editor tools https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/a094ca1366a26a1ec71baf5cab32d33fbf0f5ec1 20180626 17:31:47< irker124> wesnoth: Jyrki Vesterinen wesnoth:master 4bda3e7311c7 / changelog.md src/editor/map/map_context.cpp: Fixed saving a map as a scenario not enabling scenario editor tools https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/4bda3e7311c7b54742fbd29cb725dc0b292de633 20180626 17:36:12<+discordbot2> 👍 20180626 18:13:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 18:13:39-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 19:04:05-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 19:04:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined 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gfgtdf/wesnoth#1161 (mpwait_flg - 48aca0a : gfgtdf): The build was broken. 20180626 21:01:49< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/397069511 20180626 21:01:49-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-204-190-81.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180626 21:04:16-!- Oebele [~quassel@185-11-201-31.ftth.glasoperator.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 21:15:08-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.131.34.255] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 21:18:25-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180626 21:23:43-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 21:23:49-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 21:29:34-!- stikonas__ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 21:29:46-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180626 21:35:31-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 21:35:33-!- stikonas__ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20180626 21:40:29-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-111-123.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 21:40:30< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#1162 (mpwait_flg - 288f9b3 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing. 20180626 21:40:30< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/397080005 20180626 21:40:30-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-111-123.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180626 22:09:19-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-111-123.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 22:09:20< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#1164 (mpwait_flg - 8d458c9 : gfgtdf): The build is still failing. 20180626 22:09:20< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/397092934 20180626 22:09:20-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-158-111-123.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180626 22:34:21-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 22:37:15-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Client Quit] 20180626 22:52:09-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas 20180626 23:17:09-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.131.34.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180626 23:22:36-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-204-190-81.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 23:22:37< travis-ci> gfgtdf/wesnoth#1165 (mpwait_flg - 1c56dce : gfgtdf): The build is still failing. 20180626 23:22:37< travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/gfgtdf/wesnoth/builds/397116592 20180626 23:22:37-!- travis-ci [~travis-ci@ec2-54-204-190-81.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #wesnoth-dev [] 20180626 23:35:05-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180626 23:37:20-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@121.222.147.211] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 23:45:54-!- irker494 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180626 23:46:02-!- irker058 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180626 23:46:02< irker058> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Jyrki Vesterinen a094ca1366 Fixed saving a map as a scenario not ena AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180626 23:50:00-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev --- Log closed Wed Jun 27 00:00:11 2018