--- Log opened Wed Jul 11 00:00:35 2018 20180711 00:42:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 00:42:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 00:59:21-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 00:59:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 01:09:28<+discordbot1> FTR, I've started discussing a new portrait commission with LordBob 20180711 01:11:23<+discordbot1> Tentatively to begin sometime in October 20180711 01:12:08<+discordbot1> For what campaign if we may know? 20180711 01:12:28<+discordbot1> Wait. 20180711 01:12:46<+discordbot1> I mean I guess NR is the only one in urgent need of portraits right now. 20180711 01:12:52<+discordbot1> Then SotA would follow? 20180711 01:12:55<+discordbot1> Since earlier this year the plan has been for NR to get the next set. But if someone wants to mainline a campaign, it might get portraits instead. 20180711 01:13:44<+discordbot1> SotA needs far fewer than NR, and the ones it has are suitable for now 20180711 01:15:59<+discordbot1> NR will be slightly complicated, since I'll need to decide whether any changes are merited to the campaign that might add or remove characters 20180711 01:17:58<+discordbot1> it's not a great campaign, TBH 20180711 01:18:49<+discordbot1> If we did the cast as currently stands, that's 14 portraits 20180711 01:19:24<+discordbot1> which 20180711 01:19:28<+discordbot1> is a lot 20180711 01:19:54<+discordbot1> what the hell is the difference between Elenia and Eryssa? Who knows! Are they even fleshed out enough to have differing designs? 20180711 01:20:15<+discordbot1> One is a princess the other isn't. 20180711 01:20:53<+discordbot1> Also to be honest most mainline campaigns suffer from an overpopulation of flat characters. 20180711 01:21:13<+discordbot1> Well, yes 20180711 01:21:32<+discordbot1> But honestly, in this case I feel we'll be giving him really flat charaters... 20180711 01:22:05<+discordbot1> I could undertake a rewrite of NR.... 20180711 01:23:56<+discordbot1> This would be so much easier if it were a campaign such as yours in the queue. All those characters have detailed backstory and enough character traits to result in unique, detailed, and memorable portraits. 20180711 01:24:19<+discordbot1> For NR, we'd basically be telling LB, "ok, so... she's an elvish princess. And he's a big bad orc." 20180711 01:24:32<+discordbot1> "he's an elf general or something" 20180711 01:24:52<+discordbot1> "oh yeah, and a lich. Nothing interesting about him, just lichyness" 20180711 01:24:58<+discordbot1> I'd describe them in terms of trope slol 20180711 01:26:18<+discordbot1> Anita wait I mean Eryssa is basically the mandatory Royal Brat Love Interest for our archetypal Young And Flawless White Male Human protagonist. 20180711 01:26:32<+discordbot1> Elenia is uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 20180711 01:26:35<+discordbot1> Her sister. 20180711 01:26:48<+discordbot1> Her sister, right. 20180711 01:26:53<+discordbot1> I mean, there's only so much you can do with that, ya know. 20180711 01:27:00<+discordbot1> With UtBS there was meat to work with. 20180711 01:27:00<+discordbot1> (help does elenia have any traits at all) 20180711 01:27:14<+discordbot1> Elenia is the Living Prop sister to Eryssa. 20180711 01:27:27<+discordbot1> Also both have a Hair Trigger Temper. 20180711 01:27:51<+discordbot1> The fact that they are both the only female characters besides Sister Theta I mean Thera is definitely just a coincidence. 20180711 01:28:28<+discordbot1> Definitely. 20180711 01:28:38<+discordbot1> Indeed 20180711 01:29:22<+discordbot1> Now compare that to what you could lay down for an Anya portrait. Or even a Uria portrait. So much to work with there. 20180711 01:29:29<+discordbot1> And you see my problem 20180711 01:29:36<+discordbot1> Anya is [insert text wall here] 20180711 01:29:40<+discordbot1> These commissions cost thousands. 20180711 01:30:01<+discordbot1> In fairness you're comparing apples and oranges. 20180711 01:30:11<+discordbot1> Firstly, you have me around, we don't have Taurus. 20180711 01:30:33<+discordbot1> Secondly, while IftU and AtS use clichés, NR runs entirely on them. 20180711 01:31:19<+discordbot1> NR's focus is on serving as a glorified benchmark suite for Wesnoth's game engine the gameplay, not the story, whereas IftU and AtS are plot-heavy and extremely character-driven. 20180711 01:31:33<+discordbot1> It feels a bit unfair to LB to hand him generic templates he's worked through a dozen times for us and expect him to come up with something unique. But given the subject matter, it's likely the results will be somwhat generic, which also seems a bit of a waste of his time and our money. 20180711 01:32:03<+discordbot1> (Sadly the strikethrough formatting doesn't come out on IRC so my line looks just weird to IRCers.) 20180711 01:35:29<+discordbot1> I'll discuss with LB, see what he thinks 20180711 01:35:47< irker652> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Jyrki Vesterinen 1699c0d3f9 Fix #2789: lobby chat scrolls to top on AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 01:46:22<+discordbot1> @Vultraz another thing to note is that a lot of those characters aren't essential to the storyline, you can let them die without too much consequence 20180711 01:46:55<+discordbot1> IIRC, Elenia, Cameron, Eryssa, and Stalrag can all die 20180711 01:47:00<+discordbot1> without you losing 20180711 01:47:19<+discordbot1> I think that's correct in most scenarios. 20180711 01:48:13<+discordbot1> Tallin is basically a Mary Sue with, in somewhat crude terms, a "harem" of crazy followers 20180711 01:48:47<+discordbot1> I didn't want to put it like that but it's accurate. 20180711 01:48:50<+discordbot1> and the gameplay is just a huge amount of unit spamming 20180711 01:49:55<+discordbot1> that being said, NR is not necessarily the worst offender in terms of abusing cliches, there are other mainline campaigns which do very much the same 20180711 01:50:56<+discordbot1> then again, for being an expert-level campaign, I suppose you could argue that it shouldn't use as many flat/generic characters as the novice level ones 20180711 01:53:32<+discordbot1> I just don't know if a rewrite should turn it into a character-driven campaign like AtS is 20180711 02:42:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 02:42:38-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 04:00:24-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20180711 04:05:46-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180711 04:13:41< irker652> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 josteph 60b609f63f THoT S4: Let the enemy recruit level 2 u AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 05:04:14-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+o ShikadiQueen] by ChanServ 20180711 05:04:20-!- mode/#wesnoth-dev [+b-o *!*@185.9.19.107 ShikadiQueen] by ShikadiQueen 20180711 05:19:06< irker652> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 josteph 5bfd61b80d THoT S4: Let the enemy recruit level 2 u AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 05:41:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 05:41:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 05:57:30-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 07:23:39<+discordbot1> Hey crew, Vultraz pointed me to the above. For the record, while it does outline a difficult commission I totally dig the non-characters' description by @shadowm 😅 20180711 07:27:50<+discordbot1> I do see how this ambient blandness can become a problem, in all seriousness. With UtBS creating a gazillion portraits wasn't an issue because there was a whole new faction and lots of decent material (not to mention the sequels) to flesh out characters, but the way you people describe it, I'm tempted to revert the NR cast to all-generics 20180711 07:30:38<+discordbot1> 14 portraits is a lot indeed, especially if those characters have little interest on their own and their use is restricted to a single campaign. 20180711 07:31:02<+discordbot1> Wait. 14? 20180711 07:31:23<+discordbot1> Hm. 20180711 07:31:46<+discordbot1> Well, that's the number Vultraz quoted above 20180711 07:31:49<+discordbot1> I think you can trim them down a bit. 20180711 07:32:05<+discordbot1> Definitely. 20180711 07:32:15<+discordbot1> I don't feel the lich twins are particularly deserving of unique portraits for example. 20180711 07:32:29<+discordbot1> neither are the white magi 20180711 07:32:34<+discordbot1> neither is stalrag 20180711 07:32:44<+discordbot1> that puts it at 9 20180711 07:32:46<+discordbot1> Sisal definitely does not need a custojm portrait. 20180711 07:32:59<+discordbot1> let's see, I think Cameron doesn't need one either 20180711 07:33:09<+discordbot1> nor does Elenia 20180711 07:33:39<+discordbot1> Hidel doesn't deserve a portrait either. 20180711 07:33:42<+discordbot1> nor does Krash 20180711 07:33:47<+discordbot1> jeez. 20180711 07:34:07<+discordbot1> I would need to do a full read of the campaign to get a better grasp, but going by your earlier discussion I guess it would fare much better with 5 well-written characters, rather than a crowd of forgettable nobodies 20180711 07:34:20<+discordbot1> to be honest 20180711 07:34:30<+discordbot1> it really could use a rewrite 20180711 07:34:57<+discordbot1> I mean, this goes for most of the Wesnoth campaigns, they're obviously lacking in the writing department 20180711 07:35:11 * zookeeper needs to read the log, clearly 20180711 07:35:12<+discordbot1> but especially for NR (among a couple of other really bad offenders) 20180711 07:35:15<+discordbot1> The protagonist isn't well-written but he's the most substantial of all in terms of screentime and emotion. 20180711 07:35:25<+discordbot1> (That really says a lot for the whole campaign.) 20180711 07:35:30<+discordbot1> essentials 20180711 07:35:34<+discordbot1> Tallin (or is it Talin?) 20180711 07:35:39<+discordbot1> Tallin yeah. 20180711 07:35:40<+discordbot1> Rakshas 20180711 07:35:55<+discordbot1> I think Eryssa can be counted as an essential, even lacking a supposed rewrite 20180711 07:36:04<+discordbot1> and Hamel 20180711 07:36:20<+discordbot1> Hamel has a portrait in THoT I believe. 20180711 07:36:37<+discordbot1> So yeah he kind of needs to have a custom portrait in NR. 20180711 07:36:53<+discordbot1> that's four 20180711 07:37:07<+discordbot1> As for Malifor... 🤷 20180711 07:37:24<+discordbot1> he's present in 2 scenarios 20180711 07:37:29<+discordbot1> lol 20180711 07:38:29<+discordbot1> Either way the commission won't start until October, so in the meantime I'm all for a rewrite - or at least a substantial trim of the main cast - if it means time and money are better spent . 20180711 07:38:51<+discordbot1> so here's the thing 20180711 07:39:13<+discordbot1> last I played, NR felt like the "main cast" was basically Tallin 20180711 07:39:36<+discordbot1> well, and Rakshas, I guess 20180711 07:39:42<+discordbot1> everyone else ended up being side characters 20180711 07:39:43<+discordbot1> Like you said, he's essentially a Mary Sue so it's natural to feel like there aren't any characters besides him. 20180711 07:39:45< zookeeper> i guess if we commission NR portraits, then that for all intents and purposes means dumping it out of mainline isn't much of an acceptable option anymore. 20180711 07:39:54<+discordbot1> Because everyone else is defined in terms of how they interact with Tallin. 20180711 07:40:16<+discordbot1> Dropping NR from mainline would be an excellent idea for Wesnoth Inc. 20180711 07:40:23<+discordbot1> But would it improve the game? 20180711 07:40:43<+discordbot1> Would it save you and other maintainers time and oh my god I'm doing a terrible job at defending it. 20180711 07:40:48<+discordbot1> Why am I even trying. 20180711 07:40:57<+discordbot1> from what I recall 20180711 07:40:57<+discordbot1> NGL, I would still very much like seeing your campaign in mainline with a full set of portraits. 20180711 07:41:16<+discordbot1> there are a decent amount of people who enjoyed NR 20180711 07:41:41<+discordbot1> and the writing quality and even balance in some other campaigns is poor enough that "campaign quality" isn't a reason to dump NR 20180711 07:41:50<+discordbot1> although NR tends to be the worst offender in tediousness 20180711 07:42:03<+discordbot1> I can start on a rewrite 20180711 07:42:10<+discordbot1> but I guess such a thing wouldn't go in 1.14 20180711 07:42:11<+discordbot1> mutters something about Heir to the Throne 20180711 07:42:22<+discordbot1> and the rewrite would be ..? 20180711 07:42:28<+discordbot1> mutters something about returning to Wesnoth 20180711 07:42:33<+discordbot1> as in, are you designing the scenarios and doing the writing? 20180711 07:42:51-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 07:42:53<+discordbot1> Jet had some very good ideas regarding HTTT.... but given recent events I wonder if he'd care to touch campaign development again 20180711 07:42:57<+discordbot1> Okay this is the right angle for defending NR. 20180711 07:43:14<+discordbot1> Is it useful to drop the one campaign that caters to the "massive combat maps" audience niche? 20180711 07:43:17<+discordbot1> oh 20180711 07:43:24<+discordbot1> I just realized it might not be possible to drop NR 20180711 07:43:32<+discordbot1> because it outlines a thing for the northern alliance 20180711 07:43:38<+discordbot1> which is used in other campaigns and is pretty core to lore 20180711 07:43:40<+discordbot1> what thing? 20180711 07:43:45<+discordbot1> The existence of the NA. 20180711 07:43:47<+discordbot1> yes 20180711 07:43:49<+discordbot1> and its founding 20180711 07:43:51<+discordbot1> really? 20180711 07:43:52<+discordbot1> yes 20180711 07:43:54<+discordbot1> Yes? 20180711 07:43:56<+discordbot1> I can't even remember that 20180711 07:43:59<+discordbot1> lol 20180711 07:44:08<+discordbot1> But yes the NA is founded by Tallin. 20180711 07:44:15<+discordbot1> In case he wasn't annoying enough as it is. 20180711 07:44:25<+discordbot1> He's responsible for a crucial plot element used in THoT and SotBE. 20180711 07:44:32<+discordbot1> isn't the NA supposed to be a human, dwarvish, and orcish alliance 20180711 07:44:34<+discordbot1> 🤔 20180711 07:44:36<+discordbot1> Yes. 20180711 07:44:40<+discordbot1> and drake, IIRC 20180711 07:44:43<+discordbot1> and elf 20180711 07:44:46<+discordbot1> hmm 20180711 07:44:52<+discordbot1> everyone is invited 20180711 07:44:53<+discordbot1> well that's a PITA 20180711 07:45:02<+discordbot1> Elves of the Far North, yes. But I don't think drakes are part of the deal. 20180711 07:45:05< zookeeper> oh, at least we should totally add one of those little "this campaign is a bit special in the following way:" disclaimers to the start of the intro. i guess that'd be good. 20180711 07:45:27<+discordbot1> And by SotBE the NA has gone the path of the League of Nations or something. 20180711 07:45:33<+discordbot1> so for the record 20180711 07:45:39<+discordbot1> I don't remember the specifics but it's pretty central to its plot. 20180711 07:45:44<+discordbot1> I feel like the actual plot of NR isn't too bad 20180711 07:46:09<+discordbot1> it's not terrifically interesting, but it's not absolutely awful either, and there aren't extremely huge glaring plot holes 20180711 07:46:12<+discordbot1> it's mostly the execution 20180711 07:46:56<+discordbot1> I'd throw out a lot of it 20180711 07:47:05<+discordbot1> liches, gtfo 20180711 07:47:09< zookeeper> i don't mind the gameplay, it's simply not what i enjoy but apparently some people do, but the characters and dialogue i can't stand to look at 20180711 07:48:02<+discordbot1> @Vultraz The lich twins do not make sense to neophytes like you. 20180711 07:48:15<+discordbot1> I actually agree with Vultraz in this situation, though 20180711 07:48:25<+discordbot1> malifor, gtfo 20180711 07:48:25<+discordbot1> 14 characters is too many to keep track of in any meaningful way 20180711 07:48:31<+discordbot1> For people who've been around for long enough, the context is that they appeared in one HttT scenario that was eventually removed in 1.3.x. 20180711 07:48:34<+discordbot1> in this size of campaign 20180711 07:48:36<+discordbot1> (As living mages.) 20180711 07:48:50<+discordbot1> Stalrag is also hijacked from that same scenario. 20180711 07:48:57<+discordbot1> make a core cast of tallin and the two white mages, since those guys are actually somewhat interesting. Have them be present from the start, or something. maybe have them as slaves with tallin. 20180711 07:49:14<+discordbot1> (not mage-y of course) 20180711 07:49:18<+discordbot1> (yet) 20180711 07:49:20<+discordbot1> IOW it's an Elyssa-in-IftU kind of deal, except with three characters instead of one. 20180711 07:49:46<+discordbot1> 🤔 20180711 07:50:06<+discordbot1> would it be possible/prudent to set up a forum poll on a possible NR rework 20180711 07:50:09<+discordbot1> in terms of storyline 20180711 07:50:13<+discordbot1> not gameplay 20180711 07:50:13<+discordbot1> noooo 20180711 07:50:24<+discordbot1> Vultraz doesn't believe in democracy. 20180711 07:50:29<+discordbot1> soz. 20180711 07:50:31<+discordbot1> never poll your audience for story. 20180711 07:50:47<+discordbot1> It's true, though. What would you be polling? 20180711 07:50:55<+discordbot1> that's true... 20180711 07:51:01<+discordbot1> I actually kind of like Vultraz's idea 20180711 07:51:04<+discordbot1> And most people don't really know what they want either. 20180711 07:51:45<+discordbot1> let's see, so it's 13 scenarios right now 20180711 07:52:13<+discordbot1> if shadowm had polled past!me for ats ideas, Elynia would live happily every after with Galas and spend many nights Alone In Her Tent. Mal Keshar would still be alive, Elyssa would be Redeemed, and Uria would turn out to be Evil But Actually Good Inside. 20180711 07:53:31<+discordbot1> and I say that first thing because I actually for some reason was very curious about the implications of IftU S19's intro sequence and for some goddamn reason decided to pester shadowm about it years ago 20180711 07:53:38<+discordbot1> I think Elyssa would've stayed dead lol 20180711 07:53:56<+discordbot1> Also we don't talk about that sequence Vultraz. 20180711 07:53:59<+discordbot1> We. Don't. 20180711 07:54:11<+discordbot1> I can't even remember if it got removed 20180711 07:54:14<+discordbot1> in Reconstruction 20180711 07:54:34<+discordbot1> Yes it did but I make a very oblique allusion to it. 20180711 07:54:55<+discordbot1> But as absurdist as this may be, it highlights how bad polling a playerbase for plot is 20180711 07:55:02<+discordbot1> you have a point 20180711 07:55:18<+discordbot1> however, I don't mean to offend when I say this 20180711 07:55:26<+discordbot1> I don't feel confident in your actual writing abilities 20180711 07:55:28<+discordbot1> I'm not a good writer 20180711 07:55:28<+discordbot1> at this time 20180711 07:55:36<+discordbot1> I would feel a lot better if shadowm wrote the dialogue 20180711 07:55:42<+discordbot1> HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 20180711 07:55:51<+discordbot1> (if she wants to) 20180711 07:55:54<+discordbot1> :thonk: 20180711 07:55:56<+discordbot1> :thonk: 20180711 07:55:58<+discordbot1> I would rather jump off a bullet train than touch NR. 20180711 07:56:06< zookeeper> you don't want to poll for plot details, but you can always poll for what current elements the audience finds best/worst. 20180711 07:56:10<+discordbot1> but you'd be making it great again! 20180711 07:56:28<+discordbot1> I'm in the same boat as shadowm 20180711 07:56:39<+discordbot1> NR isn't even remotely the kind of campaign I'd write. 20180711 07:56:41<+discordbot1> but given the current state of my attempted contribution to mainline campaigns 20180711 07:57:00<+discordbot1> I would be willing to do a bit of script writing because I want to contribute something 20180711 07:57:01<+discordbot1> the point of an NR rewrite would be to completely change it 20180711 07:57:19<+discordbot1> Then people will point at me when it's done and claim I ruined NR forever lol 20180711 07:57:54<+discordbot1> 🙄 those same people would also say it's possible to "ruin" LotI 20180711 07:58:42<+discordbot1> @Vultraz even with a supposed complete rewrite 20180711 07:58:48<+discordbot1> I don't think NR should become a character-focused campaign 20180711 07:59:02<+discordbot1> why? 20180711 07:59:36<+discordbot1> hmm 20180711 07:59:40<+discordbot1> I wonder why I think this 20180711 07:59:42<+discordbot1> :thonk: 20180711 07:59:51<+discordbot1> let's see, for the other expert level campaigns 20180711 07:59:55-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 08:00:00<+discordbot1> TRoW is mostly character driven, partially plot driven 20180711 08:00:08<+discordbot1> NR's focus first and foremost is the gameplay. 20180711 08:00:16<+discordbot1> SotBE is character 20180711 08:00:20<+discordbot1> yes well I already "ruined" that 20180711 08:00:22<+discordbot1> The rest is an excuse plot to justify the multiple scenarios. 20180711 08:00:32<+discordbot1> Scepter of Fire is something really weird 20180711 08:00:44<+discordbot1> UtBS is unique gameplay, right now mostly plot driven 20180711 08:01:21<+discordbot1> SoF is plot driven too. 20180711 08:01:31<+discordbot1> I guess you could say that 20180711 08:01:39<+discordbot1> But it starts to suffer from some major arc fatigue near the end. 20180711 08:01:41<+discordbot1> so yes, there is definitely room for another character-driven campaign 20180711 08:01:48<+discordbot1> (Which is why I've never completed it.) 20180711 08:01:51<+discordbot1> okay, I rescind my earlier statement 20180711 08:02:27<+discordbot1> Add IftU and AtS to mainline and you instantly get 4 campaigns and enough material to call the next update the "After the Fall" update. /s 20180711 08:02:38<+discordbot1> And also a lot of unhappy people. 20180711 08:02:45<+discordbot1> Lol 20180711 08:24:00-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 08:29:08<+discordbot1> Like I said, I think we should start with Tallin, Morvin, and Thera (drop the damn titles) as slaves. The latter two can't use magic anymore due to lack of practice in servitude. Rebellion (S1). Initially successful, but more reinforcements arrive in the interim before S2. Group tries to flee, is spotted by a wolf rider group. Group is pursued (S2). Perhaps some unique "block the enemy" mechanic. Group enters caves. Explores (S3). 20180711 08:29:09<+discordbot1> Breather scenario. They find some old, worn passages that lead to a more traversed area. They descend deeper (intro, S4). They encounter the dwarves somehow. Hamel? They meet a dwarvish mage (not a runemager, an actual dwarf who dabbles in "human magic". Let's make this Camrim). Helps Thera or Morvin regain magical ability. Other one not yet. Onto S5. Maybe we stick with the "freeing the mines" thing, but definitely would be a stealth 20180711 08:29:09<+discordbot1> demolition mission. Mines regained. S6, leave the caves. Other mage regains magical ability. All three very unsure what they should be doing. Disagreement ensues. Tallin is a bit of a coward, thinks they should flee to Wesmere and seek asylum. Morvin thinks they should help the dwarves stage a rebellion. Thera likes the idea of rebellion, but thinks their best chance is to head east to the port of Jotha (it's on the map) and regroup first. 20180711 08:29:13<+discordbot1> Cannot decide, so they simply wander west, sticking to the foothills. They encounter an orc slave caravan on the road. They free the prisoners. An Elvish nobel is among them (Eryssa?) S7, they join her and head to WHERE ARE THE ELVES OF THE FAR NORTH?, meeting up with an elvish rider garrison that had been sent to try and rescue her (too damsel-in-distress, maybe?). Orcs are in pursuit, the elves and co rebuff them. Eryssa and 20180711 08:29:14<+discordbot1> court hold meeting, decide orcs willing to even come near WHERE ARE THE ELVES OF THE FAR NORTH? shows their daring and the power of Rhaksas. All agree he must be stopped. The dwarves are contacted, morvin and threa leave to help free some human settlements along the coast and rally them (hapens offscreen). S8. Tallin + elves moves against an orcish stronghold to the western edge of the heart mountains. S9, more orcish fighting, but the 20180711 08:29:14<+discordbot1> dwarves join them now. They manage to take out an orcish General. S10, Breather. lot of dialog. dunno, do some filler-y thing here. S11, humans rejoin with morvin and thera, main assault on rhaksas stronghold. S12, epilogue. 20180711 08:30:24<+discordbot1> @Yumi 20180711 08:31:25<+discordbot1> rough framework off the top of my head developed right as we speak 20180711 08:44:46<+discordbot1> @Vultraz Two things that strike me: Cannot decide, so they simply wander west feels too random, like "alright f*ck all this lets go on a hike instead" - at least they would agree over some compromise of an objective meeting up with an elvish rider garrison that had been sent to try and rescue her suggests that the elves would already have discussed Orcs daring to invade their land and take captives. Maybe instead the elvish 20180711 08:44:46<+discordbot1> riders are a regular border patrol ignorant of their presence whom (Eryssa ?) is hoping to run into 20180711 08:45:27<+discordbot1> Something like that could work. Like I said, I literally came up with this right now. 20180711 09:38:58-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 09:39:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 09:45:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180711 10:01:07-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 10:03:47-!- irker652 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180711 10:10:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180711 10:16:02-!- zookeeper_ [~lmsnie@192.130.252.29] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 10:17:57-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180711 10:23:24-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 10:23:30-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 12:16:16-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 12:24:06-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.59.125] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 12:41:23-!- sevu [~Shiki@141.57.59.125] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20180711 12:50:48-!- zookeeper_ is now known as zookeeper 20180711 12:50:50-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@192.130.252.29] has quit [Changing host] 20180711 12:50:50-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 12:58:51-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180711 13:43:52-!- irker196 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 13:43:52< irker196> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:1.14 d504819ed1c3 / data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/ (08b_The_Tides_of_War.cfg 09a_Vengeance.cfg): TSG, end of campaign: Use linger mode to allow to review the current scenario. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/d504819ed1c3921e3ebb4f808f88487adfa7d10d 20180711 13:44:26< irker196> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 591b1cd68ece / data/campaigns/The_South_Guard/scenarios/ (08b_The_Tides_of_War.cfg 09a_Vengeance.cfg): TSG, end of campaign: Use linger mode to allow to review the current scenario. https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/591b1cd68ece8248c7b3b45fdd9db3874a0d9de8 20180711 13:49:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 13:49:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 13:57:34< irker196> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:1.14 505b914804aa / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/Corrupted_Elf.cfg: UtBS: change weapon name of the corrupted elf https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/505b914804aa51472b4dfbfc48f714f5539a00bb 20180711 13:57:58< irker196> wesnoth: Severin Glöckner wesnoth:master 5f7e8bd74997 / data/campaigns/Under_the_Burning_Suns/units/quenoth/Corrupted_Elf.cfg: UtBS: change weapon name of the corrupted elf https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/5f7e8bd749970dd602981033d5f89db134f9d335 20180711 14:08:01-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 14:08:05-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@124.185.42.197] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 14:08:07-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 14:14:45<+discordbot1> someone who does not care for NR rewriting it to make it into something else that probably lacks what people like about NR does not strike me as a good idea. better to remove NR then and write a new campaign. 20180711 14:32:35-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 14:32:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 14:42:01-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 15:02:28< irker196> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 josteph b8842c8849 THoT S10: Clarify objectives. AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 15:10:05<+discordbot1> I can't really critique it since I never got past S2 20180711 15:10:29<+discordbot1> the cave scenario is so brutal 20180711 15:28:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 15:28:51-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 15:46:55<+discordbot1> @Vultraz it sounds okay, but I would suggest introducing Rakshas relatively early (around S4-S5) and Eryssa earlier as well 20180711 15:47:14<+discordbot1> right now, all those cave scenarios sound like fillers, while the latter half sounds like it would be fairly rushed 20180711 15:48:16<+discordbot1> I would also suggest having Morvin and Thera not be magi to begin with, i.e. they never had magical abilities 20180711 15:48:43<+discordbot1> because "losing magical abilities" seems reaaallly strange, especially for people who grew up in slavery 20180711 16:25:50-!- gfgtdf [~gfgtdf@134.76.63.8] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 16:34:13-!- mkdroid [~null@unaffiliated/matthiaskrgr] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 16:35:01-!- mkdroid [~null@unaffiliated/matthiaskrgr] has quit [Client Quit] 20180711 16:40:36-!- Elvish_Hunter [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 17:06:49-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 17:40:52-!- lilinitsy_ [~demonitsy@75-168-31-203.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 17:46:07<+discordbot1> I agree with Soliton for the record. It's that same reasoning why I said I wouldn't be able to rewrite it. 20180711 17:47:25<+discordbot1> Having someone with no real understanding or attachment to the source material readapt it is how you got the soulless Hollywood remakes fad of the early/mid 2010s. 20180711 18:03:07-!- irker196 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20180711 18:44:18<+discordbot1> so from a storyline perspective, we already know NR is a very cliche Mary Sue-type story 20180711 18:44:41<+discordbot1> people write these types of things in fan fiction all the time, and readers like them 20180711 18:45:32<+discordbot1> likely because it's easy to imagine yourself as the main character, and you could imagine that people like imagining themselves as "someone who can do no wrong" 20180711 18:45:49<+discordbot1> it's also easier to like someone who seems perfect on a superficial level 20180711 18:47:06<+discordbot1> however, this type of writing/story tends to be amateurish and done in the case of a lack of ability to write a story with more substance, so if the goal is to bring the campaigns up to a more professional standard 20180711 18:47:23<+discordbot1> a story rewrite may be better, even supposing that players like Mary Sue-type stories 20180711 18:52:00<+discordbot1> I avoid such fanfiction 👻 20180711 18:53:10<+discordbot1> I don't read fanfiction (outside of Wesnoth campaigns, which tend to be glorified fanfics). 20180711 18:56:20<+discordbot1> I spent yesterday finishing reading a 143,000 word Kylo Ren/Rey modern AU fanfic because I had nothing better to do. 😬 20180711 18:56:38<+discordbot1> Dear god. 20180711 18:57:25<+discordbot1> 140K words? That's like a long book. 😮 20180711 18:57:56<+discordbot1> A very long book 20180711 19:00:33<+discordbot1> you might avoid it but you're certainly aware that it exists, I presume 20180711 19:00:37<+discordbot1> NR is basically the equivalent 20180711 19:00:53<+discordbot1> oh yes, 99% of fanfics are Bad. 20180711 19:00:58<+discordbot1> I agree with Vultraz in that 20180711 19:01:08<+discordbot1> even if people like the amateur, fanfic-like writing of NR 20180711 19:01:16<+discordbot1> if our goal is to create more professional stories 20180711 19:01:23<+discordbot1> we have to disregard that they like it 20180711 19:01:32<+discordbot1> Certainly 20180711 19:01:44<+discordbot1> In all honesty, if it were up to me I'd rather spend money on animations for mainline than professional portraits for one of the most amateurish-feeling campaigns. 20180711 19:02:00<+discordbot1> That's an idea 20180711 19:02:18<+discordbot1> We could also get Dunefolk portraits 20180711 19:02:46<+discordbot1> If they have been fleshed out enough by then. 20180711 19:03:57<+discordbot1> I know LB can do pixel art and animations (see the Mudcrawler), but I'm not sure he'd take such things on commission 20180711 19:05:41<+discordbot1> but with that kind of mindset, all of the amateurish campaigns will stay that way forever 20180711 19:06:22<+discordbot1> there's also a need for saurian portraits 20180711 19:06:26<+discordbot1> which is a lot of them, to varying degrees 20180711 19:06:41<+discordbot1> and nagas 20180711 19:11:02<+discordbot1> @Yumi if we were to replace NR, with what would we replace it, tho 20180711 19:11:47<+discordbot1> nothing, we would rewrite it? 20180711 19:12:11<+discordbot1> it has enough substance as is to work with tbh 20180711 19:12:55<+discordbot1> even without a plot rewrite, we could work with it 20180711 19:13:17<+discordbot1> well, ok, if you had to take my outline, where wold you take it? 20180711 19:13:52<+discordbot1> give me like 30 min, I have a time sensitive experiment to run 20180711 19:14:11<+discordbot1> :thonk: 20180711 19:22:42-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 19:51:50<+discordbot1> JK I have more work to do, I'll get back to you later today on some ideas 20180711 20:01:43-!- irker872 [~irker@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 20:01:43< irker872> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 ProditorMagnus a0645e317f Add WML unit test for unupgradable AppVeyor: vs2015/Release Failed 20180711 20:01:43< irker872> Details: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/wesnoth/wesnoth-7lnpw/build/Wesnoth-VS2015-1.14-4188 20180711 20:32:12< Ravana_> curious how I get "31 out of 169 tests were correct." now 20180711 20:33:21< Ravana_> seems I need to modify run_wml_tests to run with empty userdata 20180711 20:39:28< Ravana_> using /dev/null as config dir didn't work out though, wesnoth tried to load images from it 20180711 20:43:58<+discordbot1> heh 20180711 20:45:59<+discordbot1> /dev/null is a FILE, not a directory. 20180711 20:53:24< irker872> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Severin Glöckner 505b914804 UtBS: change weapon name of the corrupte AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 20:55:07< Ravana_> I guess I need to compile 1.14.3 since test passes with 1.14.0+dev 20180711 21:06:58-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180711 21:08:01-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180711 21:13:04<+discordbot1> This was years ago when I was like, 10, but I thought NR before it was rewrittten and included as a mainline was better. 20180711 21:13:42-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 21:15:30-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:30c3:570a:a4c9:ac36] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 21:17:33-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@1.120.98.249] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 21:25:23-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 21:51:52-!- Bhoren [~Bhoren_wh@2a01:e0a:c:2150:30c3:570a:a4c9:ac36] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 22:37:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 22:38:31-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 22:42:41< irker872> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner 5f7e8bd749 UtBS: change weapon name of the corrupte AppVeyor: All builds passed 20180711 23:18:21-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@1.120.98.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180711 23:45:09-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180711 23:47:57-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20180711 23:59:34-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev --- Log closed Thu Jul 12 00:00:19 2018