--- Log opened Sat Jul 14 00:00:33 2018 20180714 00:06:01-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 00:07:21<+discordbot1> i think its from The Beautiful Child 20180714 00:07:29<+discordbot1> at least according to the friend 20180714 00:16:59-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 00:17:05-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 00:24:13<+discordbot1> Oooooh hasnt that one been around for like 5 years 20180714 00:36:51-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 00:38:43-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 01:15:02-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 01:18:21-!- DasBrain [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 03:00:15<+discordbot1> Suarians are really hard to fight 20180714 03:06:20<+discordbot1> Indeed 20180714 03:06:23<+discordbot1> Sneaky lizards 20180714 03:07:34-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20180714 03:25:46<+discordbot1> is there anyway i DONT die here? 20180714 03:25:46<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/467532121590988820/unknown.png 20180714 03:25:47<+discordbot1> i'm not seeing any 20180714 03:26:01<+discordbot1> what's the objective 20180714 03:26:04<+discordbot1> kill everyone 20180714 03:26:06<+discordbot1> burn all the villages 20180714 03:26:15<+discordbot1> oh, that scenario 20180714 03:26:30<+discordbot1> its really not helping me that 90 percent of my good units are woses 20180714 03:26:32<+discordbot1> if you can possibly go a couple turns back 20180714 03:26:33<+discordbot1> which i don't have access to here 20180714 03:26:38<+discordbot1> I'd put your elven units on the forests 20180714 03:26:44<+discordbot1> and fight the saurians at the very border 20180714 03:26:47<+discordbot1> so they're on snow 20180714 03:26:47<+discordbot1> heres my issue, they've been going north to attack my loyals and kalenz 20180714 03:26:48<+discordbot1> but you're on forest 20180714 03:26:50<+discordbot1> and ignoring my forestal front 20180714 03:26:57<+discordbot1> they refuse to engage me in the forest 20180714 03:27:04<+discordbot1> can you put the loyals and kalenz on the forest too? 20180714 03:27:04<+discordbot1> for some reason their AI won't let them 20180714 03:27:18<+discordbot1> i guess if EVERYONE was on the forest they'd have no choice but to engage 20180714 03:27:24<+discordbot1> then theres the turn limit that stresses me though 20180714 03:27:44<+discordbot1> like i need to take some of their villages to reduce their enormous income 20180714 03:27:47<+discordbot1> as my moneys very limited 20180714 03:28:04<+discordbot1> but if i push i get shit on because of all their good terrain and their abusive AI 20180714 03:28:13<+discordbot1> if i make a pure forest front they will outhorde the shit out of me 20180714 03:28:23<+discordbot1> and either exhaust my turn limit or defeat me by attrition 20180714 03:28:56<+discordbot1> 😣 20180714 03:29:05<+discordbot1> yea this chapter is a bit bitchy 20180714 03:29:15<+discordbot1> i have a decent amount of strong units that can engage many saurians before death 20180714 03:29:24<+discordbot1> but since i have no shamans and villages autoburn when you land on them 20180714 03:29:26<+discordbot1> i have no way to heal them up 20180714 03:29:31<+discordbot1> i'm forced to take heavy casualties 20180714 03:29:43<+discordbot1> as zero healing is possible and i'm dealing with large hordes of enemies with a small group 20180714 03:29:47<+discordbot1> this is really stacked to be honest 20180714 03:34:43<+discordbot1> let's see 20180714 03:34:44<+discordbot1> yea the biggest difficulty in this chapter i'm finding is the enemy AI is really good 20180714 03:34:48<+discordbot1> they refuse to engage me in the forest 20180714 03:34:50<+discordbot1> making my life a nightmare 20180714 03:35:02<+discordbot1> mattsc did work on the AI a bit for 1.14 20180714 03:35:21<+discordbot1> and we did note that the AI being stronger would make campaigns harder 20180714 03:35:36<+discordbot1> well LoW really took off with that one 20180714 03:36:08<+discordbot1> as these guys won't engage me in a favorable situation and will use all their power to kill a unit if they can 20180714 03:36:16<+discordbot1> which with skirmisher is very hard to stop or fight against 20180714 03:36:28<+discordbot1> in general i've just hated the saurian missions in this campaign 20180714 03:36:36<+discordbot1> they've been my biggest sinkhole for casualities in the entire campaign 20180714 03:37:10<+discordbot1> if a redesign is being considered, redesigning the saurian chapters first would be wise as they are the most poorly designed missions in the campaign 20180714 03:37:12<+discordbot1> from what i've noticed 20180714 03:37:23<+discordbot1> oh okay 20180714 03:37:27<+discordbot1> one piece of advice I can say is 20180714 03:37:40<+discordbot1> archers tend to be less effective against saurians compared to fighters 20180714 03:38:07<+discordbot1> so you'll want to focus on spending your gold recalling fighters, maybe even just recruiting level 1s 20180714 03:38:26<+discordbot1> as fighting absolute hordes of enemies that 1. can break around your defensive line 2. get 60% defense in nearly all terrain types and 3. are smart enough to not engage you with bad terrain unless your terrain is also bad is absolute hell 20180714 03:38:47<+discordbot1> i recruited a shitload of fighters 20180714 03:38:49<+discordbot1> they just all died 20180714 03:39:28<+discordbot1> 😖 20180714 03:40:00<+discordbot1> this mission just feels unfair, like the saurian missions are the only missions where i feel losing units isn't my fault 20180714 03:40:14<+discordbot1> just because there are extremely few options to fighting saurians 20180714 03:40:34<+discordbot1> like, aight this mission in particular i really hate because the only unit the elves have that are actually GOOD against saurians are the woses 20180714 03:40:39<+discordbot1> but you can't recruit them this mission 20180714 03:41:00<+discordbot1> and with no villages usable for healing, every point of damage you take is permanent 20180714 03:41:23<+discordbot1> when you consider the saurians on average recruit triple the amount of units you do with their gold, and THEY have access to healing 20180714 03:41:26<+discordbot1> yea i consider that stupid 20180714 03:42:20<+discordbot1> i would do 2 things with this mission in particular, make the swamp area nearest to your home base frozen instead so you have a good front to fight them on, and really restrict the saurians ability to recruit augurs 20180714 03:42:28<+discordbot1> maybe make their AI restrict them from doing so entirely 20180714 03:42:38<+discordbot1> then at least its fair, would still be very difficult even with that in play 20180714 03:43:07<+discordbot1> the way you're talking about it 20180714 03:43:07<+discordbot1> because even with those restrictions they still have access to far more units then you do and villages to heal with 20180714 03:43:10<+discordbot1> so they are still very strong 20180714 03:43:19<+discordbot1> I do think that actually recruiting t1 fighters may be a good strategy 20180714 03:43:27<+discordbot1> because then you can fill the gaps in your defense line 20180714 03:43:40<+discordbot1> or at least some t1s 20180714 03:43:41<+discordbot1> i did that though, its just.... theres no good fronts to fight them on 20180714 03:43:56<+discordbot1> also try using Kalenz as bait 20180714 03:44:02<+discordbot1> there are only very small areas with forest adjacent to frozen, to the point where the saurians can dual engage using some of the forest to their advantage 20180714 03:44:08<+discordbot1> or attack you from the swamp if you try to fill that gap 20180714 03:44:11<+discordbot1> which is just as bad 20180714 03:44:35<+discordbot1> i'm saying making more frozen terrain especially close to the starting position would give you an actual advantageous front to deal with their unfair numbers and healing advantage 20180714 03:44:43<+discordbot1> i'm still talking design 20180714 03:44:58<+discordbot1> i'll figure out what the hell to do with the way it currently is later 20180714 03:45:31<+discordbot1> its obnoxious that the only units i have that get a full 70 percent from forest are the archery ones, but i'll have to make do 20180714 03:46:28<+discordbot1> GOD their AI is way too good, now they aren't even attacking unless they survive the battle, giving their reinforcements time to show up and ruin my day 20180714 03:46:33<+discordbot1> why is their AI so incredible 20180714 03:46:45<+discordbot1> I guess mattsc will be happy to hear you say the AI is incredible 20180714 03:48:19<+discordbot1> well i'm sure not happy about it 😦 20180714 03:49:28<+discordbot1> honestly their numbers are starting to thin and they've stopped recruiting, i MIGHT be able to pull this off 20180714 03:49:29<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/467538088873295872/unknown.png 20180714 03:49:32<+discordbot1> i'll need the RNGgoddess to be happy with me though 20180714 03:49:49<+discordbot1> and be very careful in how i engage 20180714 03:50:39<+discordbot1> oh kalenz fully healing from an AMAL is really really damn helpful 20180714 03:50:44<+discordbot1> it might be horrible of me to say this but 20180714 03:50:53<+discordbot1> save and reload if you get bad RNG? 😂 20180714 03:51:02<+discordbot1> i've already been doing that tbh 20180714 03:51:04<+discordbot1> ah. 20180714 03:51:08<+discordbot1> this chapter doesn't deserve my respect 20180714 03:51:10<+discordbot1> no offense 20180714 03:51:13<+discordbot1> even though that was very offensive 20180714 03:53:22<+discordbot1> ah, costly revenge...like yumi said the best way to go is spam level 1 fighters and stay in the forest near the start 20180714 03:54:05<+discordbot1> also a bit of a spoiler but you won't really need your veterans after that scenario 20180714 03:54:39<+discordbot1> i think i'll live, but i've lost all my units except my mains and 1 loyal marshal 20180714 03:54:47<+discordbot1> i might have JUST enough power to push through and beat them 20180714 03:54:57<+discordbot1> oh, OH, minus the turn limit 20180714 03:55:00<+discordbot1> shit i think i'm gonna time out 20180714 03:56:11<+discordbot1> and kalenz died 20180714 03:56:13<+discordbot1> meaning i lost 20180714 03:56:35<+discordbot1> yea that wasn't happening anyways, every other turn they recruited one more unit, always an augur 20180714 03:56:45<+discordbot1> which is the 1 thing just holding a front with strong units can't fight against 20180714 04:00:50<+discordbot1> new AI too OP 20180714 04:22:06<+discordbot1> hello! 20180714 04:22:13<+discordbot1> just finished the tutorial 20180714 04:22:23<+discordbot1> I really think l like this game 20180714 04:22:26<+discordbot1> :) 20180714 04:22:28<+discordbot1> Hello. 20180714 04:22:47<+discordbot1> Hi. 20180714 04:23:20<+discordbot1> If you need help with the game or anything, I'd be open to helping you, although I might not be the best or most qualified. 20180714 04:23:28<+discordbot1> lol, any help is appreciated 20180714 04:23:36<+discordbot1> I am playing on Android now though 20180714 04:23:38<+discordbot1> as I'm away 20180714 04:25:27<+discordbot1> And it's approaching the late hours for me, so I have to go for now, but I can be back later. I've studied Wesnoth for a while, and would like to help if you need any. 20180714 04:28:19<+discordbot1> ok, thanks! 20180714 04:35:39<+discordbot1> hey though i give you guys props for a fitting name 20180714 04:35:41<+discordbot1> "a costly revenge" 20180714 04:35:57<+discordbot1> my sanity is paying a heavy cost, so its quite an accurate title 20180714 05:17:43<+discordbot1> Lol well not bad x)))) 20180714 05:18:01<+discordbot1> ❤️❤️ the hardest way is the easiest way ❤️❤️ 20180714 05:18:58<+discordbot1> Oh my, I need to make some more accordion youtube videos 20180714 05:19:03<+discordbot1> time to play something xoxo :)) 20180714 05:19:56-!- ibispi [~quassel@46.17.149.69] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 05:38:23-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 07:27:24<+discordbot1> Enjoy! Oh man i'm so rusty xD but i'm going to start doing anthems and some classics in the future x) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-U8ivbY4UY 20180714 07:40:38<+discordbot1> oh yeah someone requested Sea Shanty 2 from runescape for a while x))) 20180714 08:41:54-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 08:42:00-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 09:43:36-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 09:44:58-!- Guest46399 [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 10:06:36-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 10:28:17-!- Guest46399 [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 10:34:56-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 10:38:49-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180714 10:40:01-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@ppp91-122-164-167.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 10:46:27-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@1.120.98.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 11:05:34-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 11:06:30-!- Soo_Slow [~devnu11@ppp91-122-164-167.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Quit: Soo_Slow] 20180714 11:13:51-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 11:20:29-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 12:12:27-!- ibispi [~quassel@46.17.149.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 12:13:19-!- ibispi [~quassel@46.17.149.69] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 12:49:08-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 12:49:16-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 12:59:38-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 13:41:15-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 13:41:37-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 13:58:34-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180714 14:15:14-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180714 15:04:54-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 15:39:22-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 16:04:19-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180714 16:17:20-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180714 16:20:34-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 16:29:29<+discordbot1> how about Traveling Minstrels 😃 20180714 17:03:17-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 17:18:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180714 17:24:24-!- HeyCitizen_ is now known as HeyCitizen 20180714 17:36:43<+discordbot1> @Cirno Moriya @Yumi FYI, the saurian sides AI in "A Costly Revenge" is the default AI, except for specifying a custom recruitment pattern, and there is no significant difference between the Wesnoth 1.12 and 1.14 default AIs. 20180714 17:38:16<+discordbot1> hmm I wonder why it's playing differently then 20180714 17:38:29-!- DeFender1031 [~DeFender1@93-173-122-186.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 17:38:35<+discordbot1> at least it's my impression that the 1.14 ai plays better than the 1.12 one 20180714 17:38:47<+discordbot1> but hard to quantify such a thing 20180714 17:48:01-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 17:52:07-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 17:54:45<+discordbot1> The Experimental AI plays slightly better than the default AI, and a small number of scenarios have gotten custom AIs or are using the Micro AIs, but A Costly Revenge uses none of those (I checked the scenario WML, just to make sure I had not forgotten). 20180714 17:56:18<+discordbot1> There have been a few bug fixes during the 1.14 development cycle and, as @jyrkive pointed out, the damage predictions have been improved, but from what I know about the AI, none of those should make a significant difference overall. 20180714 17:58:54<+discordbot1> The most significant difference in damage prediction is that it's now aware that level-up heals poison and slow. 20180714 18:00:50<+discordbot1> Yeah. And that really only applies to a very small fraction of all battle outcome calculations and, in the way the AI uses these, would only make a difference in the AI action in a small fraction of those cases. 20180714 18:01:09<+discordbot1> So I really don't expect it to make a noticeable difference on AI play style. 20180714 18:01:51<+discordbot1> The same goes for the (few) bug fixes to the AI code itself. 20180714 18:01:58-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20180714 18:09:46-!- sigurdfd [sigurdfd@dynamic-acs-72-23-110-196.zoominternet.net] has quit [] 20180714 18:23:29-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 18:23:35-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 19:03:33<+discordbot1> I don't know why, but this part of HttT really irks me, lol. This guy is just waiting for you! No further dialogue. Just another loyal unit. No follow up as to why he was there or something lol 20180714 19:03:34<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/467768125795074049/unknown.png 20180714 19:05:23<+discordbot1> I know it acts as a warning. It'd just be nice if there was some sort of follow up to it, like Kalenz saying "I have scouts in the area" or something. It's not a big deal or anything, of course 20180714 19:05:29<+discordbot1> Enjoying the campaign! 20180714 19:05:57-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180714 19:36:45<+discordbot1> nice suggestion 20180714 19:51:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180714 20:12:50-!- ibispi [~quassel@46.17.149.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 20:17:57-!- hrubymar10 [~textual@nat19.interconnect.cz] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 20:19:33-!- hrubymar10 [~textual@nat19.interconnect.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 20180714 20:48:29-!- louis94 [~~louis94@91.178.69.90] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 21:25:53-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180714 21:31:42-!- Appleman1234 [~quassel@1.120.98.249] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 21:43:21-!- lipkab [~lipk@host-91-147-210-58.biatv.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20180714 21:48:21-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180714 21:48:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 22:08:33-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o ShikadiQueen] by ChanServ 20180714 22:08:57-!- mode/#wesnoth [-bo *!*@185.9.19.107 ShikadiQueen] by ShikadiQueen 20180714 23:20:00-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87] has joined #wesnoth 20180714 23:29:34<+discordbot1> seriously, a costly revenge uses default AI? Why the hell are these damned lizards so hesitant to attack me at my forest front then? 20180714 23:32:29< Ravana_> they might be more likely to receive more damage than they inflict 20180714 23:33:27<+discordbot1> oh does the AI care about that? 20180714 23:34:03<+discordbot1> basically i'm finding they only attack if they survive the battle, but heres the crazy thing 20180714 23:34:12< Ravana_> not sure what its default aggression is, but that is main point on choosing whether to attack or not 20180714 23:34:15<+discordbot1> this is the first campaign scenario i've run into enemies with self preservation 20180714 23:34:23<+discordbot1> and granted the circumstances its really hard to deal with 20180714 23:41:41<+discordbot1> the lack of healing is what makes this really hard, as i can't just pull back wounded units and attack with fresh ones, as not even villages can be used for healing, the only exception being kalenz 20180714 23:50:54<+discordbot1> I don't want to play Under the Burning suns 20180714 23:51:01<+discordbot1> Cause that's the end of the mainline 20180714 23:51:13< celticminstrel> A lot of campaigns increase the AI aggression. 20180714 23:51:13<+discordbot1> And I'm afraid other modded campaigns aren't nearly as good 20180714 23:51:18<+discordbot1> And written as well 20180714 23:51:27< celticminstrel> So that might be why you haven't seen much of a sense of self-preservation. 20180714 23:54:07<+discordbot1> they have been sitting here for 3 turns, this is bs, attack me already stupid lizards 20180714 23:54:07<+discordbot1> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/467841250892972037/unknown.png 20180714 23:54:42< celticminstrel> :p 20180714 23:55:47< mattsc> It’s certain death for them to attack you there and they have no chance of killing any of your units. So they won’t. 20180714 23:56:05<+discordbot1> thats kinda insanely frustrating 20180714 23:56:19<+discordbot1> because I'M going to die if i try to go aggressive on them in the snow 20180714 23:56:23<+discordbot1> i've already tested that theory 20180714 23:56:42<+discordbot1> Circle left and attack them from that bit of forest maybe idk 20180714 23:56:46<+discordbot1> again, no healing, so every point of damage i take is permanent 20180714 23:56:46< mattsc> It’s quite likely that that is intentionally. Not the frustrating part, but that you need to figure out how to deal with this somehow. 20180714 23:57:25<+discordbot1> no healing, and massive enemy hordes, the only way to deal with that is to play defensive 20180714 23:57:31<+discordbot1> or get insanely lucky on the offense 20180714 23:57:48<+discordbot1> Are the good modded campaigns written as well and are as good as the mainline ones or nah 20180714 23:57:53<+discordbot1> Cause the writing is why I played mainline 20180714 23:57:54<+discordbot1> :/ 20180714 23:59:09<+discordbot1> and guess what happened the SECOND i circled left 20180714 23:59:11<+discordbot1> kalenz died 20180714 23:59:12<+discordbot1> modded have better campaigns 20180714 23:59:14<+discordbot1> right then and there 20180714 23:59:20<+discordbot1> than mainline in terms of writing 20180714 23:59:29<+discordbot1> words can not describe how much i absolutely abhor this mission 20180714 23:59:55<+discordbot1> most mods have less high quality art compared to mainline --- Log closed Sun Jul 15 00:00:17 2018