--- Log opened Sat Aug 04 00:00:36 2018 20180804 01:55:19-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 01:55:25-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 02:00:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 02:00:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 02:01:13-!- gfgtdf_ [~chatzilla@x5ce289a9.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 02:08:32-!- gfgtdf_ [~chatzilla@x5ce289a9.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.9.0/20180621064021]] 20180804 05:22:34-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 09:37:27-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 09:37:29< hk238> hi 20180804 09:51:34< hk238> should try and finally look at this problem :D 20180804 10:33:59< hk238> okay I think it's fixed 20180804 10:39:10< hk238> well there are no errors but it's not working 20180804 10:47:20< hk238> https://pastebin.com/uRAV7VjE 20180804 10:47:25< hk238> does this look somehow erroneous? 20180804 10:50:13< hk238> hm 20180804 11:21:04< vn971> second_arg_identity looks undefined. 20180804 11:21:29< vn971> well, same as "map" function, but I guess it's defined somewhere around. 20180804 11:22:41< vn971> Anyway, it's hard to understand what the code does at all TBH. The function name is named "array_filter" 20180804 11:23:49< vn971> Personally, I do have this function: 20180804 11:23:49< vn971> function mirrorfaction.array_filter(arr, func) 20180804 11:23:49< vn971> local result = {} 20180804 11:23:49< vn971> for _, elem in ipairs(arr) do 20180804 11:23:49< vn971> if func(elem) then result[#result + 1] = elem end 20180804 11:23:50< vn971> end 20180804 11:23:50< vn971> return result 20180804 11:23:51< vn971> end 20180804 11:24:49< hk238> yeah it's pretty similar 20180804 11:24:51< vn971> If you just wanna construct a filtered array without mutating the old one, then why use "remove". If you want to mutate, then why create a new table. 20180804 11:25:12< hk238> because I want to mutate the new table rather the old one 20180804 11:25:20< hk238> or are you saying that I'm actually mutating the original by accident? 20180804 11:25:32< hk238> because of pointers? 20180804 11:25:33< vn971> hk238: if you only want a new array, why use "remove" at all? 20180804 11:25:53< hk238> I guess you're right that's less efficient 20180804 11:25:55< vn971> hk238: no, I just don't understand why you need so much code and "remove" method. 20180804 11:26:03< hk238> you're right about that 20180804 11:26:11< hk238> I'll refactor that bit 20180804 11:28:53< hk238> well it's still not working but I think that was regardless an improvement 20180804 11:29:14< vn971> Did you try to just use the code I pasted? Since we have an identical function defined anyway... 20180804 11:30:37< hk238> no I used the same for_each_index thing but I just removed the remove part 20180804 11:30:56< hk238> but I think the filter function is not the source of the problem now since this is pretty straightforward 20180804 11:31:23< hk238> https://pastebin.com/UDYXAzPb 20180804 11:31:24< hk238> also here 20180804 11:31:24< hk238> :D 20180804 11:36:19< hk238> should probably refactor this also to use tuples for coordinate pairs it's unnecesary trouble to transform them constantly with somtehnig like v[1] v[2] 20180804 11:39:03< hk238> does the compare_array function look correct? :o 20180804 11:40:12< hk238> https://pastebin.com/5t3AaKVA 20180804 11:40:17< hk238> also here's the actual afterwoods.lua :d 20180804 11:41:06< hk238> okay i guess I just need to start testing something I cant figure it out looking at these 20180804 11:42:44< hk238> okay is adjacent_to_campfire function works at least it returns true so it can't be the reason why the adjacent hexes is empty 20180804 11:42:51< hk238> that narrows it down to filter and the match functions 20180804 11:43:59< hk238> wait no 20180804 11:44:24< hk238> match works because the adjacent thing works filter doesnt work so either it's wrong or I'm calling it the wrong way 20180804 11:45:41< vn971> hk238: no, compare array absolutely does not seem correct, because it's named "compare_array", not "compare_tuple" ! 20180804 11:45:52< vn971> should either rename to "compare_tuple" or make a real array comparison. 20180804 11:45:57< hk238> yeah you're right about that 20180804 11:46:02< hk238> I was also thinking it's not correctly named 20180804 11:46:23< hk238> but it's also in the afterwoods file which is map specific and not supposed to be very general and I'm not lookign to reuse those parts 20180804 11:46:25< vn971> like #a == #b, and a `for` loop to `return false` if some elements don't match. 20180804 11:46:50< vn971> in case of full array comparison ^ 20180804 11:47:02< hk238> yeah I should probably do that instead coz it's just better to do that 20180804 11:47:08< hk238> could also move it to the genral functions then 20180804 11:47:24< hk238> but how does that work when the elements are arrays? 20180804 11:47:36< hk238> do I need to make a deep comparison function then too? 20180804 11:47:49< hk238> coz that's kind of the problem I was trying to avoid here by making it compare just the two values 20180804 11:48:01< hk238> but anyway hmm 20180804 11:48:31< hk238> the source of te problem is not the match because I just tested the adjacent thing with a coordinate pair, that is adjacent to a campfire, and it returned true 20180804 11:48:37< hk238> if it returns true for some coordinate pair like that 20180804 11:48:44< hk238> then that shouldn't get filtered out by the filter thing 20180804 11:48:50< hk238> so definitely the problem is not in that part of the code 20180804 11:49:07< hk238> either I dont have any hexes that are adjacent to campfires, but the hexes should contain all map hexes 20180804 11:49:19< hk238> or the filter is not working right, or I'm calling th efilter incorrectly 20180804 11:50:05< hk238> well I guess I just have to test the filter function.... 20180804 11:50:09< hk238> for starters 20180804 11:50:09< hk238> :D 20180804 11:51:35< hk238> oh yeah the filter is wrong 20180804 11:51:44< vn971> > do I need to make a deep comparison function then too? -- if you want a deep comparison, then yes, you need to make recursive calls I think. 20180804 11:51:58< hk238> I'm calling the filter's test function with index, value 20180804 11:52:04< hk238> but it should be just value 20180804 11:52:06< hk238> :D 20180804 11:52:14< hk238> a 20180804 11:52:51< hk238> but no I'm actually doing that correctly 20180804 11:52:54< hk238> darn 20180804 11:53:02< hk238> okay I'll just do the test.. 20180804 11:53:30< hk238> oops no 20180804 11:53:40< hk238> my anonymous functio nis missing return keyword 20180804 11:53:42< hk238> 8D 20180804 11:53:54< hk238> darn that's like one of the most basic things. Is this function returning something? 20180804 11:54:00< hk238> well if it doesn't have "return" in it, probably isn't 20180804 11:54:01< hk238> :D 20180804 11:55:04< hk238> okay now I got this error again 20180804 11:55:08< hk238> attempt to compare function with a number 20180804 11:56:14< hk238> oh 20180804 11:56:19< hk238> my function call is missing the () 20180804 11:56:42< hk238> I wa sassuming that's not the part where the problem is and skipping it over mentally 20180804 11:57:35< hk238> okay it works now 20180804 11:57:38< hk238> but something else has come up 20180804 11:58:32< hk238> " local lawful_bonus_to_insert = math.max(wesnoth.get_time_of_day["lawful_bonus"], 10 + wesnoth.random(15)) " 20180804 11:58:39< hk238> this line seems to be erroneous 20180804 11:58:58< hk238> do I need to have "wesnoth" assigned to something? or does that work automatically? 20180804 11:59:21< hk238> well that's probably the problem 20180804 11:59:35<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth is implicitly assigned. 20180804 11:59:43< hk238> okay so that's not the problem 20180804 11:59:59< hk238> but that line is complaining something 20180804 12:00:00< hk238> :D 20180804 12:00:26<+wesdiscordbot> Looks like you're indexing get_time_of_day() instead of calling it. 20180804 12:00:40< hk238> oh thanks 20180804 12:00:56< hk238> so I should do ()["lawful_bonus"] instead? 20180804 12:01:03< hk238> or ("lawful_bonus") ? 20180804 12:01:03<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. 20180804 12:01:06< hk238> okay thanks the former 20180804 12:03:26< hk238> wesnoth.wml_actions.time_area { x = x , y = y , id = tostring(x) .. "-" .. tostring(y) .. "-" .. "camp" , { x = x , y = y , { "time", { red = 20 , green = 5 , blue = -5 , lawful_bonus = lawful_bonus_to_insert } , } , } , } 20180804 12:03:36< hk238> hmm this line is complaining the table isn't a WML table but a table instead :d 20180804 12:06:19< hk238> sorry my table is all messed up apparently 20180804 12:06:20< hk238> :D 20180804 12:07:36< hk238> it's working great :D 20180804 12:09:37< hk238> back later 20180804 12:09:40-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180804 13:41:54-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 13:42:37< hk238> hi 20180804 13:47:42<+wesdiscordbot> Hi 20180804 14:11:40< hk238> any suggestions for a feature for an afterlife modification kind of thing? :D 20180804 14:22:01< Ravana_> scale poison 20180804 14:50:20< vn971> maybe I should actually start scaling poison?... 20180804 14:53:07< hk238> :D 20180804 14:53:17< hk238> hi vn971 20180804 14:53:19< vn971> BUT on the other hand, it'd be another rule that the user needs to remember. Is there a consensus on poison? 20180804 14:53:22< vn971> hk238: hi) 20180804 14:54:00< vn971> I mean it sounds logical to somehow overcome the poison power. BUT I'm not actually that sure. 20180804 14:54:52< hk238> I don't think poison is too hard to deal with 20180804 14:54:58< hk238> it gets less important later on 20180804 14:55:13< hk238> it's only relatively better in the beginning since it doesnt scale 20180804 15:23:53< vn971> I tried to ask people around, people are seemingly OK with poison. Not sure yet, will ask more. 20180804 15:59:19< vn971> Anyway, sorry. The question was about Laterlife, not Afterlife. Any ideas like poison scaling might still be good to try out, feel free to do so if considered good 👍 20180804 16:00:09< vn971> * Just got interested myself and tried to understand the current situation (how people feel the rules). 20180804 16:12:02< hk238> yeah sorry I'm not trying to take credit for afterlife, on the contrary I'm trying to see this laterlife thing as a sort of a modification since I have not really introduced any new core mechanics 20180804 16:12:25< hk238> although one map has this shadow feature that there's shadows and campfires which illuminate surroundings in a bit random fashion, it's still basically the same deal 20180804 16:12:31< hk238> it would great to find out something new 20180804 16:12:57< hk238> but at least I don't have any ideas 20180804 16:13:07< hk238> except maybe the 2vs2 version or cyclical 2vs2 version 20180804 16:13:32< vn971> hk238: I didn't mean you're trying to take credit, all good! Just didn't want to take all the attention to myself. I'm a bit doubtful on poison so far, but feel free to try if it sounds interesting! 20180804 16:13:59< hk238> sure but I agree with that scaling poison probably not necessary 20180804 16:59:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 17:00:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 17:27:46-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180804 17:28:04-!- lobby_ [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 17:28:04-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project and general UMC development channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867 | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net 20180804 17:28:04-!- Topic set by AI0867 [] [Sat Jun 9 07:30:08 2018] 20180804 17:28:04[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev] 20180804 17:28:04[@ChanServ ] [ AI0867 ] [ iwaim ] [ loonycyborg] [ vn971 ] 20180804 17:28:04[@shadowm ] [ Elvish_Hunter] [ janebot] [ Ravana_ ] [ zookeeper] 20180804 17:28:04[+wesdiscordbot] [ hk238 ] [ lobby_ ] [ Soliton ] 20180804 17:28:04-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-umc-dev: Total of 14 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 11 normal] 20180804 17:28:05-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net 20180804 17:28:28-!- Channel #wesnoth-umc-dev created Mon Mar 31 14:51:24 2008 20180804 17:29:20-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-umc-dev was synced in 85 secs 20180804 17:38:47-!- iwaim__ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 17:38:56-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180804 18:02:07-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 18:02:13-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 18:09:42< hk238> I just got an idea for a nice mp mod 20180804 18:09:57< hk238> one where you make maps with others 20180804 18:10:03< hk238> just right click menu and you can change terrain 20180804 18:10:08< hk238> so many people can participate into making a map 20180804 18:10:08< hk238> :D 20180804 18:10:26< hk238> I probably can't do that with my current wml/lua abilities but someone else maybe could 20180804 18:21:11< vn971> hk238: that'd be possible. Why though?:D I mean, isn't the goal of the game to win against an opponent? Every change should be good to one player and bad to another, from "game theory" perspective. 20180804 18:21:23< hk238> no that wasn't the idea 20180804 18:21:38< hk238> it wasn't to play a game but to just use wesnoth mp as a platform for a collaborative map editor 20180804 18:21:45< hk238> so like 20180804 18:21:53< hk238> in creation you'd like define dimensions (custom options) 20180804 18:22:07< hk238> and then players would be granted some spirit creature with 90 movement points and free move on everything 20180804 18:22:20< hk238> and they would have the ability to right click on any terrain and change it whatever they want 20180804 18:22:29< hk238> it should also work on opponents turn otherwise it's pointless 20180804 18:22:29< hk238> .D 20180804 18:22:52< Ravana_> it is nice idea, but I don't think it would be used much other than events like https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=46321 20180804 18:25:45< hk238> yeah maybe not but I like making maps at least it seems so 20180804 18:26:00< hk238> I could personally use it to create a map and then have people observe or participate if they wish 20180804 18:26:00< hk238> :D 20180804 18:27:41< vn971> You can right-click on any tile whatsoever BTW, don't even need to have a unit there. 20180804 18:28:03< vn971> make menus for any hexes even if there are no units on it I mean. 20180804 18:29:26< vn971> hk238: BTW, I don't remember exactly, but I think you can open savegames in map editor. So it probably could work all to the end through. 20180804 18:29:37< vn971> except starting positions maybe. 20180804 18:30:00< hk238> :d 20180804 18:30:21< hk238> like right now I'm in the mp lobby but I also have another client open since I'm modifying this afterwoods map 20180804 18:30:36< hk238> with that tool I coudl just as well do it in the lobby and if someone wants to chat while observing that would be possible 20180804 18:30:45< hk238> by creating a game in the lobby i mean 20180804 18:43:24< vn971> yeah true 20180804 19:18:05< hk238> made a new map again 20180804 19:18:05< hk238> :D 20180804 19:21:47< hk238> there's this fiery chasm going through the lower part o the map 20180804 19:21:55< hk238> but it's so ugly I'm thinking about removing it for the next version of this map 20180804 19:21:55< hk238> :D 20180804 19:29:35< vn971> Second-saddest moment in my add-on development career was when I invented a very special Afterlife variaton -- a scrolling one. I was very eager about it. When I launched it, I understood the rules are just too complex to grasp. 20180804 19:30:05< vn971> So I changed the rules a bit, and tried it another time. With the same result, rules were too complex for people it seems. 20180804 19:31:02< vn971> And the final point -- I understood that the rules _are_, in fact, too complex. It's not just illusion, it's a real mess if you objectively think about the rules not as the developer. 20180804 19:31:02< hk238> it's possible 20180804 19:31:28< hk238> but personally I think complexity improves gameplay 20180804 19:32:01< hk238> and I'd be willing to bet it's not the complexity in itself but some other property that ultimately was the reason it was hard to enjoy 20180804 19:32:11< vn971> Though a good thing about it is that I managed to come with another idea that feels differently but is conceptually similar. The "race" map which we have today. 20180804 19:32:16<+wesdiscordbot> if basic rules are too complicated it's not a good thing 20180804 19:32:36<+wesdiscordbot> there can be complexity in strategy, but if it takes me a lot of effort to just learn basic mechanics, I won't play 20180804 19:32:42< vn971> It's too complex as well it seems, because 90% of games are the basic "Afterlife". But it's popular enough to survive, and I love it much more than the classical version. 20180804 19:33:00< hk238> I don't complexity is the reason for that race is not played as much 20180804 19:33:16< vn971> @Yumi, yes, exactly the sane approach! 20180804 19:33:20< hk238> *think 20180804 19:33:34< hk238> but then complexity is a rather broad concept 20180804 19:33:48< hk238> I personally think of complexity in the sense of Hawking 20180804 19:33:52< vn971> @Yumi: this is exactly why I wrote about really understanding that my rules _are_ too complex. And removing the map in favor of other ideas in the end. 20180804 19:34:27<+wesdiscordbot> starcraft does this really well 20180804 19:34:31< vn971> @Yumi, oh, though you were probably answering to hk238. 20180804 19:34:47< hk238> for one there's the distribution of importance based on how nuanced mechanics affect the overall dynamics 20180804 19:35:07<+wesdiscordbot> basic rules are fairly simple, but it has super very indepth strategy 20180804 19:35:09< hk238> if you have the type of complexity where very small details have very big influences to the point that it becomes mechanically arbitrary 20180804 19:35:52< hk238> then I think it's frustrating 20180804 19:36:13<+wesdiscordbot> that's part of it 20180804 19:36:16< hk238> but it's not the complexity per ce in that case, rather it's how meaningful aspects of the game are balanced 20180804 19:36:30<+wesdiscordbot> another part is if there are just too many rules or the rules have too many different clauses to them 20180804 19:36:40<+wesdiscordbot> likely I personally wouldn't bother learning it 20180804 19:36:53< hk238> yeah 20180804 19:36:55< vn971> Now that we talk about this.. TBH, I _do_ think that wesnoth-s Default Era rules are too complex. The number of concepts is too high to grasp in even an hour of calm offline studying I think. 20180804 19:37:15< hk238> but if the fine details don't influence the gameplay greatly, you can enjoy the basic gameplay experience and it will be deepend by extra learning 20180804 19:37:29<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth has already a fairly complex ruleset 20180804 19:37:35< hk238> meanwhile I think exactly on the contrary, default is too simple 20180804 19:37:38<+wesdiscordbot> if you add to it, need to be careful 20180804 19:37:41< vn971> number of hits, damage, terrain resistances, charge, magic, marksman, etc etc. The number of complex really gets to you until you overcome it. 20180804 19:38:09< hk238> they're very intuitive though so you don't really need to read the mechanics extremely well to understand them 20180804 19:38:19< hk238> some units have a feel to them that they're 'dodgy' and so they have higher defenses 20180804 19:38:34< hk238> marksmanship also is very easy to intuitively grasp 20180804 19:38:40< vn971> @Yumi: the only think I personally wish to have is to _remove_ concepts. Never add. Maybe that's because I still remember how hard it was (for me) to be a newbie in the game. 20180804 19:38:49< hk238> people very easily also grasp that if something is good at dodging then being precise is probably effective 20180804 19:39:14< hk238> vn971 we have absolutely differing opinions in this respect :D 20180804 19:39:21< hk238> and I think you're underestimating players 20180804 19:40:21< hk238> if I could improve wesnoth then I'd probably try to increase the complexity in a natural manner 20180804 19:40:35< hk238> so that there would logical space for new units and strategies and such 20180804 19:40:45< hk238> currently the mechanics can only support so much meaningful gameplay aspects 20180804 19:41:16< hk238> you can't add units to default eras without easily getting a feeling that you're not adding something new but rather something same in a slightly different package 20180804 19:41:26< vn971> hk238: well, each invividual parameter is easy to grasp. What drives me insane is the number of combinations. And my actual wesnoth experience ended up... In having a "feeling" for each and every unit. Basically not splitting it into separate parameters useful for analysation, but remembering all units. Well, now I don't mind. But at first I did. 20180804 19:41:35< hk238> and it's hard to introduce a unit that has a new gameplay niche, or is different than other units, rather than just stronger/better etc 20180804 19:41:58< hk238> well my experience has been exactly the opposite 20180804 19:42:14< hk238> and also in general I think that complex games are more enjoyable and have been more succesful than those that are too simple 20180804 19:43:14< hk238> there's a difference between emergent complexity and the complexity of basic rules, like yumi pointed out, if the learning curve is steep in such a manner that you can't express yourself or make decisions or understand anything, then it's probably too much to overcome 20180804 19:43:32< hk238> but complexity in itself doesn't require that sort of property 20180804 19:44:03< hk238> however if you did increase the underlying complexity then you could introduce new units with new niches and new dynamics 20180804 19:44:38< hk238> in my opinion complexity does not equal good or a bad game, but I think it's a neccesity for a good game 20180804 19:44:55< hk238> for an example in afterlife it's exactly a type of complexity that makes it fun 20180804 19:45:17< hk238> to be precise there's this rule that creates this parallelism where your units are also the defenders and the attackers, so each decision you make, has kind of two sides to it 20180804 19:45:31< hk238> there's also this idea that whatever you're making now, keeps getting copied later on as the game progresses, and it gets better 20180804 19:45:44< hk238> and it's possible to think now about how the decisions affect the game later on 20180804 19:46:00< hk238> it's a really complicated thing where you've to make all kinds of comparisons 20180804 19:46:20< hk238> so I'd say that the fact that afterlife is much more complex than a regular game, has a lot to do with that why it's a lot more fun than a regular game 20180804 19:46:32< hk238> but it's not the complexity that makes it good 20180804 19:46:48< hk238> I think it's more like a requirement 20180804 19:54:19<+wesdiscordbot> the mechanics support plenty of meaningful gameplay though 20180804 19:54:35< hk238> true 20180804 19:54:37<+wesdiscordbot> if you're talking about complexity, each map actually plays differently for each faction 20180804 19:54:40<+wesdiscordbot> against each differentmatchup 20180804 19:54:44<+wesdiscordbot> so for default with 7 races now 20180804 19:54:49<+wesdiscordbot> you have 49 things to learn for each map 20180804 19:54:59<+wesdiscordbot> on a broad level 20180804 19:55:24< hk238> I think that's not exactly true, or this particular calculation doesn't reflect the type of learning curve involved very well 20180804 19:55:49< hk238> the map specifics are not that much to learn, the actual matchups are the thing 20180804 19:55:59<+wesdiscordbot> actually this isn't true 20180804 19:56:07<+wesdiscordbot> the map specifics end up being pretty important 20180804 19:56:13< hk238> I believe the number of matchups is N(N-1)/2 20180804 19:56:20< hk238> where N is the number of factions 20180804 19:56:21<+wesdiscordbot> it's just N^2 20180804 19:56:24<+wesdiscordbot> you can have mirrors 20180804 19:56:31< hk238> oh right that's true 20180804 19:56:39<+wesdiscordbot> the map specifics are important because it turns out 20180804 19:56:43<+wesdiscordbot> on some maps you need to rush the center 20180804 19:56:49<+wesdiscordbot> or hold a specific spot if you're a faction 20180804 19:56:52<+wesdiscordbot> or use skirmishers on the sides 20180804 19:56:58< hk238> yeah there are nuances to learn 20180804 19:57:12< hk238> but it's kind of like a lot of it's such that once you kind of have a general idea how it works, you can play many maps well 20180804 19:57:22< hk238> but there's also the possibility of honing your gameplay on a per map basis 20180804 19:57:33< hk238> but it doesn't have such a huge impact compared to the other stuff there's to learn 20180804 19:57:41<+wesdiscordbot> well you would think so 20180804 19:57:49< hk238> I do indeed :D 20180804 19:57:49<+wesdiscordbot> but after playing against high rank ladder players 20180804 19:58:01<+wesdiscordbot> I found out that you can't just have a general idea 20180804 19:58:13<+wesdiscordbot> you must play the maps close to optimally, because they know how to 20180804 19:58:19< hk238> yeah that's probably true 20180804 19:58:25<+wesdiscordbot> if you don't, your economy falls behind 20180804 19:58:27<+wesdiscordbot> is the main point 20180804 19:58:41<+wesdiscordbot> and you will lose 20180804 19:58:42< hk238> but it still isn't that the map specifics are as important as the units and the matchups 20180804 19:58:55<+wesdiscordbot> more important than you may think 20180804 19:58:59< hk238> and even if you increase the number of maps to some expoential value of their current amount 20180804 19:59:08< hk238> it doesn't really have that much effect on the learning curve 20180804 19:59:16< hk238> meanwhile if you increased the number of factions expoentially 20180804 19:59:29< hk238> that would have a very different effect 20180804 19:59:40<+wesdiscordbot> anyway the whole point is 20180804 19:59:43< hk238> and that's also an important about this 'complexity' business, the relative importance of all these nuances 20180804 19:59:45<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth is plenty complicated 20180804 19:59:52<+wesdiscordbot> if you want to play it very well 20180804 19:59:55<+wesdiscordbot> it's very complicated 20180804 20:00:00< hk238> so it's not like you can't play without knowing each map 20180804 20:00:25<+wesdiscordbot> it's a prerequisite for you to know the map, yes 20180804 20:00:37< hk238> I'd beg differ 20180804 20:00:41<+wesdiscordbot> the matchups also change depending on the map 20180804 20:00:50< hk238> your 'high ranking ladder player' can probably defeat a beginner in a map they have never played 20180804 20:01:09< hk238> which would mean that you're wrong 20180804 20:01:18<+wesdiscordbot> uhm.... 20180804 20:01:31<+wesdiscordbot> that is quite the example... 20180804 20:01:46< hk238> but it clearly demonstrates that knowing the map isn't that much of a prerequisite 20180804 20:01:52< vn971> "the map specifics end up being pretty important" -- I would totally agree, personally. 20180804 20:02:01< hk238> I think so too 20180804 20:02:08< hk238> like I think Silver head crossing is a special map 20180804 20:02:19< hk238> but a lot of them are pretty much the same 20180804 20:03:09< hk238> I think it's special because some strategies that are not possible in any other map are winning in it 20180804 20:03:43<+wesdiscordbot> well, you can choose to believe what you like 20180804 20:03:48< hk238> :D 20180804 20:04:24< vn971> > 'high ranking ladder player' can probably defeat a beginner in a map they have never played 20180804 20:04:24< vn971> Beginner yes. But a medium player knowing the map very well can actually have chances IMO. Depends a bit on luck (will the pro player immediately grasp everything?), and the usual RNG luck. 20180804 20:05:12< hk238> yeah the relative differences in the map details are also varying 20180804 20:05:23< hk238> but the thing is that you can quantify the relative importance of these aspects 20180804 20:05:42< hk238> it's not like a beginner will be better than an experienced player in a map they're familiar with 20180804 20:05:42< vn971> In a very specific map like Colosseum or Afterlife that fact is even obvious I'd say. Medium player most probably just win and that's it. Not sure about more conventional maps. 20180804 20:06:17< hk238> I still haven't encountered a lot of good players in afterlife 20180804 20:06:36< vn971> hk238: of course. The biggest mistake newbies usually do is buying lots of similar troops, which is pretty easy to counter on a great deal of maps. 20180804 20:07:20< hk238> The reason silverheadcrossing is special is because it's wider than almost all other maps and the villages are kind of spread out, and the middle is kind of split from the rest of the map 20180804 20:07:44< hk238> so for an example one pretty amazing strategy for undead is to recruit bats and then attack on the center 20180804 20:07:59< hk238> although it requires very careful assessment 20180804 20:08:29< hk238> the basic problem is a lot of factions don't have cheap enough units to guard the villages while also defending the center 20180804 20:08:37< hk238> so if you can move a bat to enemy village 20180804 20:08:46< hk238> and opponent has to try and reclaim the village 20180804 20:08:54< hk238> and he ties resources to that effort for a couple of turns 20180804 20:09:01< hk238> you might get a decisive advantage on the center 20180804 20:09:08< hk238> and they just can't do both at the same time 20180804 20:09:34< hk238> I don't think that's possible in any other map 20180804 20:11:35< hk238> it's too bad the default factions are not very balanced for afterlife, although I have learned new aspects from a couple of lost games :D I guess those are the map specifics 20180804 20:13:48< vn971> hk238: In my opinion, the "race" variation puts your skills to stress even more. You have to move all the time, you can't defend. Also you have to choose the advancement pace carefully. And most importantly, strikes you make can either hit or NOT hit. So you have to adapt your tactics on-the-fly depending on how battles end up. This a very unique aspect of wesnoth and you enjoy it at full extent on the race map. 20180804 20:14:29< hk238> maybe I should try that but it feels somehow weird after observing your game earlier 20180804 20:16:19< vn971> it's somewhat rough if you have few waves (like 6-7). And it gets much more complex with ~10-12 waves. But beginners usually die faster, so I don't want to torment them with long games and choose few wave count. 20180804 20:19:36< hk238> I think I'll play a game of afterlife and also complete my mornign workout , coz I kind of skipped that this morning :D 20180804 20:19:49< hk238> the regular map :d 20180804 20:20:57< hk238> opponent chooses loyalist and I get orcs it's actually a game I've not figured out yet 20180804 20:40:27-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180804 21:19:35< hk238> btw 20180804 21:19:42< hk238> wesnoth could use improved Pine Forest graphics 20180804 21:19:59< hk238> the new ones, with Palm Trees and Rainforest are pretty cool I think you could do a similar thing with Pineforests 20180804 21:23:27<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm maybe it's nostalgia for me that makes me thing they look fine 20180804 21:30:05< hk238> they do look fine 20180804 21:30:15< hk238> however you could imagine them looking even more like pineforests 20180804 21:30:17< hk238> :D 20180804 21:30:22< hk238> perhaps a bit bigger scale too 20180804 21:30:37< hk238> good night 20180804 21:30:39<+wesdiscordbot> I would like other great trees 20180804 21:30:39-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180804 21:34:05<+wesdiscordbot> There is one in UtBS – you can make a terrain type from it for your add-on (it was even first implemented that way) 20180804 22:22:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 22:22:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180804 22:37:38-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180804 22:37:44-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev --- Log closed Sun Aug 05 00:00:37 2018