--- Log opened Tue Aug 21 00:00:39 2018 20180821 01:31:30<+wesdiscordbot> Having never beaten it (never gotten past scenario 6, in fact), I thought I'd give Heir to the Throne another go. However, I don't like the new designs for Konrad and Li'sar, so I remplaced them with their old portraits. For stylistic consistency, I felt it best to use the old designs for the other characters too (which is a shame given they were quite well done, but I'm willing to sacrifice those for the other two). 20180821 01:31:31<+wesdiscordbot> Besides, the Elves still have a completely different style from either designs. I noticed the new portraits were more expressive, and I didn't want to miss out entirely on that, so, with little artistic skill, I set about adding those emotive variations, as well as the Elvish costumes for Konrad and Delfador. Here's what I've got so far (aside from the Elvish costumes, which, while complete, I wouldn't have been able to fit on 20180821 01:31:31<+wesdiscordbot> screen at the same time as the rest, and aren't worth writing home about, being just green recolors). 20180821 01:31:32<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442775044590927873/481274109024665610/Screenshot_60.png 20180821 01:32:54<+wesdiscordbot> Okay. 20180821 01:33:34<+wesdiscordbot> I reckon you're the 30th person to say that but the first one to actually put any effort into it đŸ¤· 20180821 01:33:50<+wesdiscordbot> Less talking, more doing. 20180821 01:34:47<+wesdiscordbot> I still like what they did with the other characters. You can see this less as a definitive version and more like Star Wars Despecialized. 20180821 01:35:25<+wesdiscordbot> has no idea what that actually means because she's not a hard SW fan 20180821 01:36:15<+wesdiscordbot> It's Star Wars without all the changes made with the Special Edition rereleases. Like with the updated portraits, there are some good changes and some bad ones. 20180821 01:37:18<+wesdiscordbot> Okay. 20180821 01:37:21<+wesdiscordbot> Can we move on now? 20180821 01:41:43<+wesdiscordbot> From the Star Wars allusion, or the classic portraits mod altogether? 20180821 01:42:35<+wesdiscordbot> Probably the one that makes the most sense given the subject matter. 20180821 01:43:20<+wesdiscordbot> So the former. Uh...would you like to see the Elvish recolors? That's the only other thing I've got so far. 20180821 01:47:18<+wesdiscordbot> I think shadowm is a big fan of the new ones 20180821 01:47:38<+wesdiscordbot> Well here are my recolors anyway. 20180821 01:47:38<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442775044590927873/481278168158830592/Screenshot_61.png 20180821 01:48:02<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, I got the feeling she was mad at me from the start. That would explain things. 20180821 01:48:58<+wesdiscordbot> Nah, I guss she's just tired of people complaining about the old style 20180821 01:50:07<+wesdiscordbot> I wish a proper artist would just adapt the old portraits to the new style so it'd be an option. Then everyone would be happy. 20180821 01:51:10<+wesdiscordbot> It's way easier if you aknowledge the already done great portraits. If just everybody would do that… 20180821 01:52:42<+wesdiscordbot> Well, once my mod is done, they'll be an option for those who don't like the new portraits. Not an ideal one, mind you, but an acceptable one. 20180821 01:53:50<+wesdiscordbot> By the way, how come the Elvish outfits aren't apparent from the unit sprites? 20180821 01:57:37<+wesdiscordbot> Because that requires new sprites to be done 20180821 02:06:21<+wesdiscordbot> the reason we don't talk about reverting anything to the old portraits now is that the new ones are already made for the campaign and nothing of comparable quality (in terms of adhering to the wesnoth portrait style) is proposed at all 20180821 02:06:54<+wesdiscordbot> simply complaining about the new portraits isn't meaningful because people have already beat that horse until it's completely and utterly dead 20180821 02:08:07<+wesdiscordbot> especially since this isn't something an artist contributed randomly, they were paid commissions 20180821 02:56:30-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 02:56:36-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 04:09:22-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 04:09:28-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 04:25:11<+wesdiscordbot> oh for... 20180821 04:25:33< vn971> @Ender I never finished even a single map on a single scenario (besides tutorial) to be honest... But guessing by add-on download statistics, it could be the most interesting/popular play method with wesnoth. Especially offline. 20180821 04:27:07< vn971> What bugs me personally is that it's unclear [to me] what to optimize while playing the first map in a series. The "goal" is not absolutely obvious. Basically you have to play a game those rules you will fully understand only while playing an N-th map. The first ones should be "by intuition" though. 20180821 04:28:06< vn971> I played a lot just trying to survive AI onslaught if I give it 200+ gold or village income though. 20180821 07:39:37-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 09:53:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 09:53:14-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 10:31:29-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180821 10:32:33-!- Elvish_Hunter [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180821 10:33:22-!- Elvish_Hunter [~elvish_hu@wesnoth/developer/elvish-hunter] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 10:34:43-!- loonycyborg [~loonycybo@wesnoth/developer/loonycyborg] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 10:52:00-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180821 10:55:25-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 11:38:28-!- Soliton [~Soliton@wesnoth/developer/soliton] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180821 11:45:17-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 11:45:17-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project and general UMC development channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867 | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net 20180821 11:45:17-!- Topic set by AI0867 [] [Sat Jun 9 07:30:08 2018] 20180821 11:45:17[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev] 20180821 11:45:17[@ChanServ ] [ AI0867 ] [ janebot ] [ Ravana_] [ zookeeper] 20180821 11:45:17[@shadowm ] [ Elvish_Hunter] [ lobby ] [ Soliton] 20180821 11:45:17[+wesdiscordbot] [ iwaim ] [ loonycyborg] [ vn971 ] 20180821 11:45:17-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-umc-dev: Total of 13 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 10 normal] 20180821 11:45:17-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net 20180821 11:45:36-!- Channel #wesnoth-umc-dev created Mon Mar 31 14:51:24 2008 20180821 11:46:29-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-umc-dev was synced in 80 secs 20180821 11:58:47-!- lobby [~wesnoth@wesnoth/bot/lobby] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 11:58:47-!- Topic for #wesnoth-umc-dev: Wesnoth-UMC-Dev Project and general UMC development channel | http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net | Staff: AI0867 | Blog: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net/blog/ | IRC logs: http://irclogs.wesnoth.org, http://irclogs.ai0867.net 20180821 11:58:47-!- Topic set by AI0867 [] [Sat Jun 9 07:30:08 2018] 20180821 11:58:47[Users #wesnoth-umc-dev] 20180821 11:58:47[@ChanServ ] [ Elvish_Hunter] [ lobby ] [ shadowm] [ zookeeper] 20180821 11:58:47[+wesdiscordbot] [ iwaim ] [ loonycyborg] [ Soliton] 20180821 11:58:47[ AI0867 ] [ janebot ] [ Ravana_ ] [ vn971 ] 20180821 11:58:47-!- Irssi: #wesnoth-umc-dev: Total of 13 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 11 normal] 20180821 11:58:48-!- Home page for #wesnoth-umc-dev: http://wesnoth-umc-dev.ai0867.net 20180821 11:59:06-!- Channel #wesnoth-umc-dev created Mon Mar 31 14:51:24 2008 20180821 11:59:59-!- Irssi: Join to #wesnoth-umc-dev was synced in 80 secs 20180821 14:58:48-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 15:10:35-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 15:10:41-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 15:10:47< hk238> hi 20180821 15:14:05< hk238> vn971 I keep making afterlife maps but somehow it feels like coming back to the default afterlife map is a good idea. Perhaps I should try to make something compact? It's a good map design :d 20180821 15:20:11< vn971> hk238: I was thinking about expanding Afterlife instead :D Make a wider version. Though to be fair, I have many ideas, but much less time (as usual).. 20180821 15:20:54< hk238> oh yeah definitely having different type of map.. I mean I've been making all these experiments, by the way have you seen 4 p version? 20180821 15:21:16< vn971> And ideas are non-afterlife -related anyway. Some XP Mod variation, a complex automated ranking system (add-on) etc. All this could be done, but needs time. "Ranking" is technically challenging even. 20180821 15:21:47< hk238> you can just copypaste elo formula 20180821 15:21:56< hk238> or what do you mean by ranking? 20180821 15:22:43< hk238> xp mod variation could be nice like for an example if you could have a special thing you could buy for each race 20180821 15:22:59< hk238> like orcs would have something, goblins would have something, possibly 20180821 15:23:51< hk238> or maybe allow buying things like skirmisher, perhaps limit buying them to just 1 ability per unit 20180821 15:24:15< hk238> I don't know I'm not particularly a fan of xp mod but I tried a couple of games and it's interesting too 20180821 15:26:55< vn971> > just copypaste elo formula 20180821 15:26:56< vn971> ELO formula is kinda slow, and not really good by some statistical properties... Also it's for a deterministic game, and ours is not deterministic, so probabilities of winning can shift (formula needs to adapt to that in order to make good predictions). 20180821 15:29:10< hk238> I don't think elo formual is a perfect match for wesnoth or afterlife, the rate of weaker players winning versus stronger players is probably much higher than in chess, but they're still probabilities, maybe you can choose a suitable k value 20180821 15:29:27< hk238> I think on some level it's like.. if chance has a big role, then the best player will basically achieve a lower ELO rating 20180821 15:29:50< hk238> but there's also that the it doesn't scale correctly transitively 20180821 15:30:19< hk238> as in if you have rates for a vs b, b vs c, then you might not have a corresponding a vs c that would remain static, where there's a constant difference between a,b,c 20180821 15:30:35< vn971> By ranking I mean an automated way to show players their ranking. As the wesnoth daemon is unlikely to integrate ratings in itself, it should be something like an add-on. An add-on would then need to: 20180821 15:30:35< vn971> * auto-update itself (so that players see real stats, not one from 2017) 20180821 15:30:35< vn971> * automatically fetch game archives and deduce winners 20180821 15:30:35< vn971> * analyze games to see if they should be ranked at all (did players change?) 20180821 15:30:35< vn971> * categorize games by map name, add-ons etc. Some people are pro-s in Creep Wars, some are in Isar Cross. 20180821 15:30:36< vn971> * make a web site to display categories, statis, TOP ranked players etc etc. 20180821 15:30:37< vn971> * [optional] anti-cheat prevention, moderation... The list goes to infinity if you want. 20180821 15:30:37< hk238> but I think it's not necessary to have a supremely accurate system, using elo is pretty good 20180821 15:31:59< hk238> oh that does seem really complicated 20180821 15:32:00< hk238> :D 20180821 15:32:14< vn971> hk238: the **real** problems are the tasks above, not Elo-vs-anything else xDD 20180821 15:32:23< hk238> right.. :D 20180821 15:33:57< vn971> ah, also... 20180821 15:33:57< vn971> * host a server that would do that, optionally register a domain name, make it all open-source and reproducible, so it doesn't die when the author loses interest/money/whatever. 20180821 15:34:36< hk238> hmm 20180821 15:35:13< hk238> basically considering the ELO formula, the problem is that it sort of assumes a curve that predicts the probability of winning while in effect it would be a plane in 3 dimensions 20180821 15:36:37< hk238> I mean that sounds unnecessarily fancy, but for each rating of player A, you would have a curve that corresponds to the probabiltiy of player B winning with any rating 20180821 15:37:05< hk238> assuming that it's a continuous function it would be something like a plane, or I'm not sure what's the english word for that.. surface, something like that 20180821 15:38:50< hk238> those are really ambitious goals :D 20180821 15:38:58< hk238> but maybe you could do something like that :o 20180821 18:24:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 18:25:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 18:26:32-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180821 19:39:16-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: AI0867 20180821 19:39:23-!- AI0867 [~ai@uruz.ai0867.net] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 19:39:38-!- AI0867 [~ai@uruz.ai0867.net] has quit [Changing host] 20180821 19:39:38-!- AI0867 [~ai@wesnoth/developer/ai0867] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 20:06:09-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180821 21:19:05-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 21:19:11-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180821 21:41:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180821 21:41:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev --- Log closed Wed Aug 22 00:00:40 2018