--- Log opened Mon Aug 06 00:00:38 2018 20180806 00:11:03-!- Polsaker is now known as Punsaker 20180806 00:15:40-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180806 00:17:41-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzโ€ฆ] 20180806 00:25:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 00:26:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 01:28:50-!- aeth_ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 01:30:28-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180806 01:47:29-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 01:47:35-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180806 01:56:09<+wesdiscordbot> it is kind of weird for that frog to attack with its tiny paws instead of its giant mouth/tongue though ๐Ÿ˜› 20180806 02:00:40<+wesdiscordbot> Not really 20180806 02:00:51<+wesdiscordbot> Most things can regrow their claws 20180806 02:01:01<+wesdiscordbot> Much fewer things can regrow their tongue 20180806 02:02:09<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know that's like me giving a skeleton a big axe but his attack is to kick you 20180806 02:06:50< celmin> My frog attacks with BOTH 20180806 02:06:54< celmin> So 20180806 02:07:30< celmin> Also BTW frogs don't have claws. That's why I dislike the EoMa attack icon (and the icon I'm currently using as well). 20180806 02:36:44<+wesdiscordbot> There's gonna be a new Star Trek movie and a new Star Trek series that takes place after Nemesis :onesieRelief: And apparently it's not gonna be reboot-like, which I hope means another space opera! :onesieRelief: 20180806 02:40:12<+wesdiscordbot> https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/08/sir-patrick-stewart-to-star-in-new-cbs-all-access-series-as-picard/ 20180806 02:40:20<+wesdiscordbot> ๐Ÿ˜„ 20180806 02:42:08<+wesdiscordbot> ๐Ÿ‘ 20180806 02:42:16<+wesdiscordbot> actually some frogs do have claws ... 20180806 02:43:10< celmin> None of the ones I know of. I can't deny that there could be some that do, I guess. 20180806 02:43:40<+wesdiscordbot> going by your picture it looks like it might attack like a bullfrog, with a bite or a headbutt 20180806 02:44:28<+wesdiscordbot> using those strong back legs to deliver a really powerful headbutt 20180806 02:44:57<+wesdiscordbot> Imagine some horns on the butting head, too ๐Ÿ˜ฑ 20180806 02:45:20<+wesdiscordbot> is it a demon frog? 20180806 02:45:24<+wesdiscordbot> Souinds like it ๐Ÿ˜„ 20180806 02:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> horned toad ๐Ÿ˜ธ 20180806 02:46:05< celmin> Heh... 20180806 02:46:40< celmin> I guess there's no strong reason why I couldn't change it to a headbutt, though I'm not better off on icons there than I am for a foot slam. 20180806 02:48:27<+wesdiscordbot> You could crop out part of the unit's image (the head) and place it nicely within the attack image frames 20180806 02:48:36<+wesdiscordbot> and then update it further along the line ๐Ÿคท 20180806 02:49:02< celmin> That doesn't seem like it would work too well... 20180806 02:49:15<+wesdiscordbot> I haven't seen the image, so I wouldn't know ๐Ÿ˜ฆ 20180806 02:50:43< celmin> And units.wesnoth.org hasn't updated yet so I can't link it... 20180806 02:50:49< celmin> Well maybe I can link the 1.12 version though... 20180806 02:52:40<+wesdiscordbot> I see 20180806 02:52:53< celmin> https://units.wesnoth.org/1.12/DruidSiege/en_US/Giant%20Toad.html 20180806 02:53:11<+wesdiscordbot> Ah 20180806 02:54:59< celmin> I think that particular unit had zero changes for the 1.14 version (other than maybe updating a deprecated bit). 20180806 02:58:53<+wesdiscordbot> Well, here's the head, maybe you can wiggle it around to make something interesting for an attack icon ๐Ÿ˜ƒ 20180806 02:58:53<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/475860278719021056/unknown.png 20180806 02:59:25<+wesdiscordbot> You could just use the hindlegs as image, too, I guess 20180806 02:59:35<+wesdiscordbot> Signifying the spring used for headbutting 20180806 03:00:45< celticminstrel> It's just so tiny that I don't think I can get any good use out of it. 20180806 03:06:27<+wesdiscordbot> Yeeah, if I was an actual artist, I could help you out ๐Ÿ˜„ 20180806 03:11:26< celmin> :) 20180806 03:12:32< celmin> If you were an actual artist wanting to help out I would point you at my graphics wishlist. 20180806 03:21:17<+wesdiscordbot> Believe me, I wish I were 20180806 03:21:30<+wesdiscordbot> I'm having enough troubles coming up with placeholder art for my own stuff 20180806 03:23:42<+wesdiscordbot> Which is keeping me from releasing my work, at this moment :FeelsBadMan: 20180806 03:28:24< celmin> What kinda placeholder art do you need? 20180806 03:29:18<+wesdiscordbot> Unit images, primarily 20180806 03:29:32<+wesdiscordbot> I've finished work on some, but I'm still working on the code 20180806 03:29:49<+wesdiscordbot> So finishing the art will probably take quite some time, if ever actually finished 20180806 03:30:18<+wesdiscordbot> It's a new faction, and will also include at least one campaign 20180806 03:30:27< celmin> Like what kinds of units 20180806 03:30:43<+wesdiscordbot> Well.. 20180806 03:31:20<+wesdiscordbot> I'll give you the description of the race 20180806 03:31:33<+wesdiscordbot> The obscure goob dwell in various more or less forested wetlands and in other damp or soggy areas, preferring the vicinity of abundant fungi. They are all-devouring and very indiscriminate with what they eat; plants, animals, wood, metals, meepa, moopa and all sorts of inanimate objects that appear before them when they're hungry. Goob exist in a semi-liquid state, being made up of a gooey combination of water, soil and various 20180806 03:31:33<+wesdiscordbot> that have formed mycorrhizae with all sorts of fungi. How this blending has produced sentient life is somewhat of a mystery, but the goob are, in their own way, part of nature itself. They are known to be able to change their form at will. 20180806 03:31:51< celmin> Oh interesting. 20180806 03:32:10<+wesdiscordbot> Kind of like the mudcrawler in general appearance, but with more flora 20180806 03:32:35< celmin> Don't think I know of many slime-type units in Wesnoth. Mind you, I've barely played any addon stuff... 20180806 03:32:49< celmin> Other than the mudcrawler obviously. 20180806 03:33:01<+wesdiscordbot> Aye, which is what made me interested in working on this ๐Ÿ˜ƒ 20180806 03:33:19<+wesdiscordbot> THey have some rather unique abilities and specials already ๐Ÿ‘Œ 20180806 03:33:48<+wesdiscordbot> 6 units so far in the faction 20180806 03:34:02< celmin> Oh? 20180806 03:34:52<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, one ability already has 1800 lines of code, but I'm considering scrapping it ๐Ÿ˜ 20180806 03:34:58< celmin> O_O 20180806 03:35:00< celmin> What is this ability? 20180806 03:35:30< celmin> The only ability I have that has a lot of code (two whole files!) is dominates. 20180806 03:35:43< celmin> (Used to be one file but then I moved part of the logic to Lua.) 20180806 03:35:50<+wesdiscordbot> It lets ability holder find objects of curiosity in various locations or settings, which adds new weapon attacks and animations to said unit 20180806 03:36:18< celmin> Oh, so it's something like, their available weapons depend on terrain? 20180806 03:37:09< celmin> (I actually considered putting up the dominates ability as a separate addon that other people could use.) 20180806 03:37:16<+wesdiscordbot> Nah, it's like.. this particular unit is a very curious member of this race, and they like to investigate ruins, other creatures, previous sites of battles, and so on, and they may "stumble upon" something they consider interesting, and pick it up and try to make use of it 20180806 03:37:26< celmin> Okay, so it 20180806 03:37:41< celmin> So it's more like, they may occasionally gain a new weapon spontaneously? 20180806 03:38:06<+wesdiscordbot> I have 2 versions of the code, one that takes the previous owner of a capture village into considering and selects a random attack from the previous owner's recruit list 20180806 03:38:15<+wesdiscordbot> and another version that simply generates a random attack 20180806 03:38:21<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, kinda 20180806 03:38:37< celmin> Can it gain arbitrarily many extra attacks, or does each new one replace the old one? 20180806 03:38:54< celmin> Wait are you saying it only takes effect on villages? 20180806 03:39:31<+wesdiscordbot> It currently has a limit of 1 extra ranged and 1 extra melee per ability holder, but the damage of these new abilties are balanced. 20180806 03:39:43<+wesdiscordbot> Finding new stuff in villages is one of the ways to find new stuff, yes ๐Ÿ˜ƒ 20180806 03:39:55<+wesdiscordbot> It's not 100% chance 20180806 03:40:38<+wesdiscordbot> The reason I'm considering scrapping it is because there's already another unit in the faction which.. kind of.. does a similar thing 20180806 03:40:44<+wesdiscordbot> And it felt a bit superfluous 20180806 03:42:53< celmin> Similar how? 20180806 03:43:26<+wesdiscordbot> It transforms into a clone of the unit it kills 20180806 03:43:37< celmin> I see. 20180806 03:44:14<+wesdiscordbot> Anyway, I've been wanting to release this faction for a while but I just can't atm 20180806 03:44:28<+wesdiscordbot> Because of artwork, but I'm hoping to somehow get that sorted sooner or later 20180806 03:46:29<+wesdiscordbot> I may opt to keep this finding of curious objects. We'll see ๐Ÿ˜ƒ 20180806 03:46:47<+wesdiscordbot> Definitely not throwing those 1800 lines of code in the bin, however 20180806 03:47:29< celmin> Heh. 20180806 03:48:49<+wesdiscordbot> I think the faction itself probably has all the units it needs, so now I'm just working on touching up the code and balance 20180806 03:48:59< celmin> Fun. 20180806 03:49:01<+wesdiscordbot> Might need to throw in a fighter type unit. Oh well ๐Ÿ˜ƒ 20180806 03:49:07< celmin> Heh. 20180806 05:20:55-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20180806 05:24:24-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 05:25:32-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20180806 05:37:24-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 05:39:01-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180806 05:39:26-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180806 05:51:30-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20180806 05:57:01-!- aeth_ is now known as aeth 20180806 06:12:59-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 06:41:23-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 06:44:28-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzโ€ฆ] 20180806 06:54:46-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20180806 07:04:54-!- Haldrik [~Haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 08:01:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 08:02:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 08:31:24-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 08:54:53-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 08:59:35-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180806 09:14:45-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 09:20:09-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20180806 09:21:00-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20180806 10:49:17-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 11:44:07<+wesdiscordbot> You might want to take at the 'Blight' faction. 20180806 11:44:50<+wesdiscordbot> If IRCC, it has a green unit called 'Blob/p(?)'. And it sure looks like it. 20180806 11:53:40-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 12:11:42<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm, which addon is that faction part of? 20180806 12:20:17<+wesdiscordbot> Mercenaries era (or Ageless) 20180806 12:24:43<+wesdiscordbot> Mkay 20180806 12:25:14<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 What about this Blob unit? ๐Ÿค” 20180806 13:01:40-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 13:01:45-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 13:30:35-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 13:40:11-!- wesdiscordbot1 [~wesdiscor@wesnoth/bot/discord-bridge] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 13:40:16-!- mode/#wesnoth [+v wesdiscordbot1] by ChanServ 20180806 13:43:46-!- wesdiscordbot [~wesdiscor@wesnoth/bot/discord-bridge] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180806 13:44:05-!- wesdiscordbot1 is now known as wesdiscordbot 20180806 13:55:43-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 14:08:29-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 14:08:35-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 14:26:36-!- desttinghim[m] [desttinghi@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qecxlomdyreziyqy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180806 14:53:26<+wesdiscordbot> It's green, looks like a Blob, is omnivorous, and looks 'goey'. 20180806 14:54:08<+wesdiscordbot> Which might make it a good base for possible unitplaceholders of the Goop. 20180806 14:54:16<+wesdiscordbot> *Goob 20180806 14:55:13<+wesdiscordbot> (Mudcrawlers look more solid than your Goob description sounds.) 20180806 14:55:58<+wesdiscordbot> solid mudcrawler ๐Ÿค” 20180806 15:00:51-!- claymore_ [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 15:00:53<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 Oh, you meant like that ๐Ÿ˜ƒ Well, I dunno the rules about using and modifying default or addon-downloaded unit images, so I probably should just stick to my own silly placeholder art (for now at least) 20180806 15:01:22<+wesdiscordbot> And yeah, I also imagine the goob being less solid than mudcrawlers 20180806 15:01:46<+wesdiscordbot> you can modify default unit images 20180806 15:01:54<+wesdiscordbot> for add-ons, check the licensing before you do anything 20180806 15:02:05<+wesdiscordbot> cc-ND does not allow you to make derivatives 20180806 15:02:09<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, really? I can use and modify default art freely? 20180806 15:02:19<+wesdiscordbot> let me double check 20180806 15:02:26<+wesdiscordbot> I'm pretty sure all default unit sprites are under GPL right now 20180806 15:02:28<+wesdiscordbot> which means yes 20180806 15:02:36<+wesdiscordbot> Would love a confirmation on that :onesieRelief: 20180806 15:02:46<+wesdiscordbot> well, it would be GPL or cc-BY-SA, both allow you to modify and use freely 20180806 15:03:00<+wesdiscordbot> but CC-BY-SA asks you to give credit and such 20180806 15:03:06<+wesdiscordbot> and use the same license, etc. 20180806 15:04:07<+wesdiscordbot> I'm lost in regards to licences and how to deal with 'em ๐Ÿ˜“ but if I am able to freely use default unit images, that'd really make my life a lot easier! 20180806 15:04:29<+wesdiscordbot> I might be able to release a first version of this shortly, then ๐Ÿ˜‰ 20180806 15:05:07<+wesdiscordbot> yes you can definitely freely use them 20180806 15:05:09<+wesdiscordbot> and modify 20180806 15:05:26<+wesdiscordbot> it looks like everything is under GPL to me, I don't see any licensing information regarding them 20180806 15:05:51<+wesdiscordbot> Does that include default projectiles, default attack icons, et cetera? Any default art, I suppose? 20180806 15:06:00<+wesdiscordbot> I think everything except portraits 20180806 15:06:12<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, yeah, I can imagine them being separate 20180806 15:06:14<+wesdiscordbot> I believe LordBob's new UtBS portraits are under CC-BY-SA 20180806 15:06:20<+wesdiscordbot> but I also can't find the licensing info regarding them 20180806 15:06:21<+wesdiscordbot> ๐Ÿค” 20180806 15:06:55<+wesdiscordbot> Still, this is good news! ๐Ÿ˜„ I'll just avoid using default portraits all together, which I'm already not doing 20180806 15:07:15<+wesdiscordbot> Ehh, I'm a bit excited, heh. Now I have to read up on how to actually upload things on the addons-server ๐Ÿ˜… 20180806 15:07:30<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi 20180806 15:07:45-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 15:07:47<+wesdiscordbot> eeek 20180806 15:08:22<+wesdiscordbot> you need to make a _server.pbl file 20180806 15:08:37<+wesdiscordbot> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/PBLWML 20180806 15:08:56<+wesdiscordbot> it gives you an example at the bottom 20180806 15:09:28<+wesdiscordbot> Aye, I was just looking that one over. Is it up to date? Was worried maybe it was an older info. 20180806 15:09:36<+wesdiscordbot> it should work 20180806 15:09:41<+wesdiscordbot> Alright ๐Ÿ˜„ 20180806 15:09:56<+wesdiscordbot> I'll give it a go later, then ๐Ÿ‘Œ 20180806 15:54:09-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20180806 16:23:06-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20180806 16:24:05-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 16:26:44-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 16:44:48-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 16:51:18-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzโ€ฆ] 20180806 17:12:19<+wesdiscordbot> oh, about portrait copyright? 20180806 17:12:30<+wesdiscordbot> well, can i use all of the mainline portraits? 20180806 17:12:36<+wesdiscordbot> or are the copyright for some different? 20180806 17:13:20< celticminstrel> I think any core portraits are fine. 20180806 17:13:26< celticminstrel> Probably any mainline portraits even. 20180806 17:13:41<+wesdiscordbot> All mainline portraits are licensed either under GPL or a more permissive license. 20180806 17:32:27-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 17:57:53-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 17:59:27-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180806 18:49:24< celmin> I wonder how difficult it would be to have a "two-layer" map. 20180806 18:49:53< celmin> Like a regular map with one or two cave entrances that take you into an underground map. 20180806 18:50:34<+wesdiscordbot> I remember seeing an Isar's Cross mod a while back which had the top layer [Isar map] and there were four spaces which acted as doorways to the underground map. 20180806 18:50:40< celmin> I figure the hardest part would be getting the AI to understand it... 20180806 18:51:06< celmin> Maybe mattsc would have an idea about that. 20180806 19:07:02<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth-sota has two-layer map 20180806 19:07:12<+wesdiscordbot> the ship scenario 20180806 19:07:18< celmin> Does it use [replace_map]? 20180806 19:07:22<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> no 20180806 19:07:38< celmin> Or does it have both layers in the main map separated by void or fake map edge or similar? 20180806 19:07:40<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> it just has a large map seperated in 2 with teleports between the inside and the ouside of the ship 20180806 19:07:56< celmin> Yeah, kinda what I thought then. 20180806 19:08:10<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> I believe trinity uses replace map for the tower map 20180806 19:08:17< celmin> Oh? 20180806 19:08:26< celmin> Maybe I should take a look at that... 20180806 19:08:29<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> but afaik the ai doesnt use it 20180806 19:09:01< celmin> There are a lot of things you'd need to worry about even before the AI - for example ensuring that no sides lose villages and also that they get village income from the inactive layer... 20180806 19:16:01<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> Looks like Trinity isnt ported to 1.14 yet though 20180806 19:17:27< celmin> Well, that doesn't prevent me from looking though. 20180806 19:17:56<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> i have a savefile from said scenario if you want it 20180806 19:18:47< celmin> Umโ€ฆ is there some reason I couldn't just skip to the scenario with debug cheats? 20180806 19:20:44<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> probably, but there is a chance using debug mode in trinity breaks a couple things 20180806 19:21:06<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> it has lots of leader changes and whatnot, characters dying/disappearing/reappearing in the story 20180806 19:22:37< celmin> Well, of course it would break things, but would it break anything directly related to the layering mechanic? 20180806 19:22:46< celmin> Or cause me to instantly lose? 20180806 19:23:08< celmin> (FTR not having a required hero doesn't make you instantly lose.) 20180806 19:23:40<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> I honestly don't know 20180806 19:23:55<+wesdiscordbot> <ะ…car> You can try, if it works good, if it doesnt i have a savefile just in case 20180806 19:26:10< celmin> Alright, I'll keep that in mind. 20180806 20:00:07-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180806 20:00:55-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 20:14:39< oldlaptop> AI decides: should I attack an assasin with this ulfserker, or a grunt? 20180806 21:13:00<+wesdiscordbot> DEPENDS 20180806 21:13:10<+wesdiscordbot> IF IT'S NIGHT TIME AND IF THE ASSASSIN IS IN 70% 20180806 21:13:23-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180806 21:15:24-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 21:23:58-!- claymore_ [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180806 21:27:04-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180806 21:27:36-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 21:44:02-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180806 21:44:22-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The minstrel departs, to spread the music to the masses!] 20180806 21:48:10-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 21:51:44-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20180806 21:51:55<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: It's very like you'd lose immediatly. IIRC you can avoid that by using :n to go from one scenario to the next. Maybe. 20180806 21:56:26<+wesdiscordbot> Are there theoretically people that could/would help me if I had any issue regarding programming in python? 20180806 22:01:20< celticminstrel> Yes. 20180806 22:01:28< celticminstrel> I know some Python. 20180806 22:01:43< celticminstrel> Though I haven't used much Python 3. 20180806 22:01:57< celticminstrel> So my knowledge may be a little out-dated in some areas. 20180806 22:13:24<+wesdiscordbot> I have no idea yet whether it's going to be Python 2 or Python 3. XD I guess I'll find out at some point. ๐Ÿค” 20180806 22:16:48<+wesdiscordbot> Python 2 is obsolete and almost phasing out. It is the new Java. Don't use it! 20180806 22:56:40-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzโ€ฆ] 20180806 22:58:05-!- HeyCitizen [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180806 22:58:39-!- HeyCitizen [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 23:11:35-!- Haldrik [~Haldrik@unaffiliated/haldrik] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180806 23:15:48<+wesdiscordbot> Fortunately, the reference manual for Python 3 is just as godlike as the reference manual for Python 2. 20180806 23:16:54<+wesdiscordbot> It's the new Java? Uhm, I'm not sure if we can bury Java besides the browser add-on 20180806 23:18:14-!- celmin [~celticmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180806 23:18:19<+wesdiscordbot> Eh ... more like "don't try to use any higher JVM than what ships with StarSector, it can't be upgraded from Java 7 because Java 8+ will corrupt the savefiles" 20180806 23:18:41<+wesdiscordbot> wouldn't say Python 2 is that radically bad. 20180806 23:19:27< celticminstrel> I'd say that's just poorly-designed save files. 20180806 23:19:56<+wesdiscordbot> They're XML. 20180806 23:20:05< celticminstrel> Uhh. 20180806 23:20:12< celticminstrel> Wait how does XML get corrupted. 20180806 23:27:23<+wesdiscordbot> That, I am not going to comment on. All the one-man developer team knows is that the system XML libraries can save to/from 90+MB XML fine in Java 7, but corrupt the savefiles in higher versions. I find the game needs reloading every 10 hours or so because the garbage collector can't cope with longer runtimes. 20180806 23:34:01< loonycyborg> one man developer team of starsector? :P 20180806 23:34:50< loonycyborg> anyway java isn't very good choice for games for variety of reasons 20180806 23:35:09< loonycyborg> garbage collector being most of them :P 20180806 23:36:02<+wesdiscordbot> I know. ... but learning curve is a bear and the game StarSector is reasonable as a twitch game 20180806 23:36:41<+wesdiscordbot> StarSector dev team has one programmer and one artist/copywriter 20180806 23:37:09<+wesdiscordbot> if all I knew was Java I'd be using Java as well ... 20180806 23:39:25< loonycyborg> it's pretty good for one man team 20180806 23:39:45< loonycyborg> a proof that times of single programmer projects are not gone yet :P 20180806 23:41:49< aeth> loonycyborg: GC isn't an obstacle for games. 20180806 23:42:19< loonycyborg> obstacle it is not, but still it causes lots of annoyances that you totally can live without 20180806 23:43:11< aeth> On the other hand, the only popular no-GC alternative for games, C++, has a lot of annoyances that you can totally live without by using almost any other programming language. 20180806 23:43:32< loonycyborg> the thing is 20180806 23:43:40< loonycyborg> C++ is really good once you master it 20180806 23:43:41< aeth> Maybe in the near future you could use Rust or @nogc D 20180806 23:44:04< aeth> loonycyborg: C++ is quite possibly the most complicated programming language that humanity will ever have. 20180806 23:44:13< loonycyborg> this is overstatement 20180806 23:44:41< aeth> C++ is incredibly complicated, and growing more complicated by every regular revision. The only way it will not be the most complicated programming language ever is if it stops getting updated at some point. 20180806 23:44:58< aeth> (And there's too much software written in C++) 20180806 23:45:18< aeth> s/in C++/in C++ for it ever stop updating/ 20180806 23:45:27< celmin> <_< 20180806 23:45:30< loonycyborg> but it's not complicated if compared to its design objectives 20180806 23:45:45< loonycyborg> in fact it's designed pretty well given its contraints 20180806 23:46:27< aeth> loonycyborg: But if you're willing to accept a 3x performance loss in exchange for a language that is considerably easier to learn (allowing you to master it sooner, and thus be able to do advanced things like work around the GC), then do it imo. 20180806 23:46:55< aeth> Most games aren't CPU-bound, so a 3x performance loss won't matter much 20180806 23:46:58< loonycyborg> I don't think so. The reason is that you learn language only once 20180806 23:47:13< loonycyborg> but any gains it gives you are forever 20180806 23:47:18< aeth> That's not quite true. The C++ I learned isn't modern C++. The style's completely different now 20180806 23:47:31< loonycyborg> so it's worth it in the long run 20180806 23:47:48-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20180806 23:48:13< aeth> The languages that are the most "relearn it every 3 years" languages seem to be JavaScript and C++ 20180806 23:48:29< aeth> Modern JavaScript is also entirely unrecognizable from the JavaScript I learned. 20180806 23:48:35< loonycyborg> and Java too I guess? 20180806 23:52:58<+wesdiscordbot> GC is not an obstacle for turn-based games. 20180806 23:53:23< aeth> Anyway, writing an entire game in a simpler language than C++ that's roughly 3x-5x slower than C++ might actually be as a whole faster than writing a game in a mix of C++ and a scripting language like Lua. Obviously, don't rewrite something that already exists in C++ like Wesnoth because that would be pointless. Code already written is easier than writing something. 20180806 23:53:40<+wesdiscordbot> It's something you plan around for twitch games (make sure it happens when it won't cause a noticeable lag) 20180806 23:53:47< aeth> (And Lua has the advantage of being sandboxed, which might be worth it.) 20180806 23:54:07<+wesdiscordbot> right ... not worth re-implementing from one major language into another. 20180806 23:54:30< aeth> Lua is definitely an obstacle in FPSes. Garry's Mod (almost) never reaches an acceptable FPS because it's scriptable in Lua and so these elaborate game modes are written in Lua. 20180806 23:54:49< aeth> It doesn't matter that the engine is in C++ when 95% of what you see is heavily customized mods in Lua. 20180806 23:56:31< aeth> Sure, a lot is probably written by non-programmers, but Lua isn't a language that makes performance easy. 20180806 23:57:43< loonycyborg> does it allow C++ modules too? 20180806 23:57:50<+wesdiscordbot> There is LuaJIT, which is a lot faster than the regular lua implementation, but it's fallen behind and the one guy who mostly created/maintained it moved on a few years ago. 20180806 23:58:04< celmin> Lua does allow C++ modules AFAIK. 20180806 23:58:09< aeth> loonycyborg: Probably not. It would be foolish to do so because it mostly works via the Steam Workshop. 20180806 23:58:14< celmin> Though in Wesnoth that capability was disabled. 20180806 23:59:14< aeth> The problem with LuaJIT is that it's... magic. It's cool to see fast matrix multiplication look so minimal, but that sort of thing in practice is pretty fragile. 20180806 23:59:42< loonycyborg> the only way to solve slow scripting 20180806 23:59:48< aeth> With Lua you (afaik) just have tables and whatever the application exposes. 20180806 23:59:54< loonycyborg> is to implement parts that hurt in C or C++ --- Log closed Tue Aug 07 00:00:32 2018