--- Log opened Mon Sep 24 00:00:46 2018 20180924 00:15:15-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4e341d40.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20180924 00:21:59-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4dbb684e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 00:33:43< hk238> hmm how does wesnoth calculate probability internally? 20180924 00:34:27< hk238> just wondering since I was checking this result with a simple binomial proability formula and was surprised that the result somewhat corresponded with the calculator, given I wasn't adding the 'excess' values 20180924 00:36:52< hk238> or at least as far as I understand you get the probabiltiy of exactly k succesful trials out of n with the formua (N,K) p^n (1-p)^(n-k) , which is what my calc is supposedly doing. But I got lazy along the way, since it's supposed to do Σi=k,to i=n, [ (N,K)p^n(1-p)^(n-k) ] 20180924 00:37:23< hk238> but I probably made some mistake somewhere anyway 20180924 00:37:45< hk238> where (N,K) is binomial coefficient 20180924 00:38:27< hk238> and I guess the expression in the brackets should have an i instead of k with that sum but anyway 20180924 00:38:27< hk238> :D 20180924 00:40:07< gfgtdf> i'm not sure what you are asking exactly, wesnoth used a normal mt rng that is reseeded after every user action, the mp rng gived a number between 0 and 2^32, to clauclate the number say 100 the generated number is taken module 100. 20180924 00:41:27< gfgtdf> say we have an attack with 70% chance to git, then the rng gives a us a rnadom number, say, 1094669353 then ita takesn % 100 this is 53, and since 53 is less than 70 the attack will hit. 20180924 00:42:08< hk238> Oh no I meant how does the graphical display generate the "chance to kill" values and such 20180924 00:42:59< hk238> I believe you're answering to a question which would be "how does wesnoth generate random trials inside the game"? 20180924 00:43:06< hk238> or something like that? 20180924 00:43:47< gfgtdf> well you question was very general, you didnt even say it was related to attacks, it codul also have been about generating traits, for example. 20180924 00:44:23< hk238> right sorry.. I was talking about the displayed probabilities :o 20180924 00:45:25< gfgtdf> i'm not exactly sure how those are calculated, iirc this was also changed in 1.13, it could be that it just simulates the attack a few times. Or that it striuctly clauclates all probabilitites exactly. 20180924 00:46:14< hk238> :o 20180924 01:10:21< hk238> nevermind this was triggered by a coincidence 20180924 01:11:07< hk238> I just fixed the calculator, and by coincidence it happens that (N,K) p^n (1-p)^(n-k) is roughly equal to the sum 20180924 01:11:24< hk238> to be more exact 20180924 01:11:46< hk238> the probability that you get exactly 4 hits out of 7 attacks when someone has 40% defense is 29 20180924 01:12:04< hk238> but the probability that you get 4 or more hits out of 7 attacks when someone has 40% defense is 71% 20180924 01:12:26< hk238> and since they add up to 100% (approximately, the decimals don't match) I got confused and thought the first value was the "chance to live" 20180924 01:12:47< hk238> 29% 20180924 02:24:00-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180924 04:03:24-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4dbb684e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20180924 04:24:56-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20180924 05:20:05< vn971> hk238: TODO: resend when they join. You can calculate the probability to get at least FRAC strikes out of STRIKES strikes by using a helper file in less_random add-on. less_random/.build/analyze.lua Just add a line like prob(0.5, 10) (calculates the chance to get at least 50% of 10 strikes on 50% terrain.) 20180924 05:20:31< vn971> https://github.com/vgaming/less_random/blob/master/.build/analyze.lua 20180924 06:08:00<+wesdiscordbot> hk238, this is how Wesnoth calculates the probabilities: https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/1.14/src/attack_prediction.cpp 20180924 06:35:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 06:35:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 06:57:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 07:40:21-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 07:40:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 11:38:52< vn971> Interesting BTW. I had a Lua file which was broken at syntax level. Basically an "if" clause without a proper closing "end". wesnoth ate it up without questions, executing only the inner part of the "if" branch and ignoring the inconsistency. 20180924 13:55:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 13:55:59-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 13:57:10< vn971> OK I can't make a very easy reproducible case out of it, so let's ignore it for now. 20180924 14:10:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 14:10:09-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 14:15:12-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 14:15:18-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 14:42:18-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 14:42:24-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 15:48:52-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 15:48:59-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 16:10:31-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 16:45:44< hk238> hi 20180924 16:48:59< hk238> btw how about adding new colors to wesnoth teamcolor palette? :d 20180924 16:52:59< Ravana_> https://github.com/ProditorMagnus/Color_Modification/blob/master/color_mod.cfg 20180924 16:54:14<+wesdiscordbot> :GWsetmyxPeepoWeird: random question 20180924 16:54:21<+wesdiscordbot> is wesnoth limited to just 9 sides! 20180924 16:55:01< hk238> oh yeah I'm aware of the color mod, just wondering if the base palettes could be expanded, it's hard to see why not? :D 20180924 16:56:01< hk238> so basically you can change the color palette of units to any colors for custom scenarios if you want to? 20180924 16:56:14< hk238> using similar logic? Could do that for some scenarios 20180924 16:58:25<+wesdiscordbot> The MP server only allows up to 9 sides but single player doesn't have a limit as far as I know 20180924 16:58:34<+wesdiscordbot> (Or if it does it's higher than 9) 20180924 17:04:51< Soliton> that limit was removed from wesnothd years ago. 20180924 17:11:22< Ravana_> when you don't need to worry about safety, then you can add all colors you want 20180924 17:15:55< hk238> is there some safety issue with that? :o 20180924 17:22:37< Ravana_> colors don't get sent over network 20180924 17:45:22< vn971> hk238: TODO: resend when they join. You can calculate the probability to get at least FRAC strikes out of STRIKES strikes by using a helper file in less_random add-on. less_random/.build/analyze.lua Just add a line like prob(0.5, 10) (calculates the chance to get at least 50% of 10 strikes on 50% terrain.) 20180924 17:45:37< vn971> hk238: or if you just want to get K strikes out of N, use the "cnk" function. 20180924 17:54:02<+wesdiscordbot> :GWfroggyPepoSmug: 20180924 17:54:35<+wesdiscordbot> so, was the MP side limit lifted or was it the SP one? 20180924 17:56:28<+wesdiscordbot> MP side. Wesnothd is short for "wesnoth daemon", the server program. 20180924 18:00:41<+wesdiscordbot> ooh 20180924 18:01:04<+wesdiscordbot> soo, addons fully support 10+ sides, right? 20180924 18:01:22<+wesdiscordbot> multiplayeer skirmishes, for example 20180924 18:02:27<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not aware of any addons that have been designed for more than 9 sides. 20180924 18:02:54<+wesdiscordbot> well, i'm just having a few ideas around i'll probably try including as experimental things 20180924 18:04:02<+wesdiscordbot> one of them turns all the zombie/same mindless creatures under the control of thisside+9 side, which is allied to you and can't capture villages, so basically AI forcibly taking control :GWsetmyxPeepoWeird: 20180924 18:07:37<+wesdiscordbot> probably gonna make you suffer from all the bad AI deicisons lol 20180924 18:12:12< vn971> @jyrkive: I tried to make a 10p (8human+2ai) version of CreepWars, but failed on 1.14.:( 20180924 18:12:23< vn971> does it mean that wesnothd-1.14 supports 10 players on a map? 20180924 18:14:23< Soliton> surely you didn't fail because of wesnothd. 20180924 18:15:47< vn971> Soliton: well it worked "offline", but when I tried to host such a game, I got an error saying that the multiplayer server doesn't allow so many players. 20180924 18:16:34<+wesdiscordbot> 🤔 20180924 18:16:43< hk238> vn971 oh cool I made a similar calculator too 20180924 18:16:59< hk238> I see you made a 4p afterlife map should try that too :D 20180924 18:18:03< hk238> http://www.anvianet.fi/382/p/ 20180924 18:18:10< hk238> like this it's on a website 20180924 18:18:38< hk238> intended to be usable on a smartphone.. also not very failsafe so probably results to errors :D 20180924 18:19:25< hk238> it gives to values the above is "exactly" k out of n succesful trials with probability p and the below is "at least" k succesful trials out of n trials 20180924 18:19:37< hk238> *two values 20180924 18:21:46< Soliton> vn971: show a test case. 20180924 18:23:02< Soliton> i can only imagine you're confused and mean 1.10 or earlier. 20180924 18:25:00< vn971> Soliton: I can push an older CreepWars branch if you'd really like to test (why though?) 20180924 18:25:17< vn971> Soliton: I kept it under a branch (abandoned branch by now). 20180924 18:26:20< vn971> Soliton: is it really interesting? I don't see why but I can provide anything there is to test. 20180924 18:27:04< Soliton> if the limitation is still there despite the code having been removed that is certainly interesting. 20180924 18:33:40< hk238> btw vn971 I commented on creepwars addon thread about some possible suggestions or similar :D 20180924 18:34:05< vn971> hk238: yeah; I haven't time to analyze/answer yet though. 20180924 18:35:21< vn971> Soliton: the limitation _was_ there on 1.12. I'm 100% it was 1.12 because I started add-on development on 1.12. 20180924 18:39:22<+wesdiscordbot> sooo 20180924 18:39:34<+wesdiscordbot> i just plop in sides 10-18 and nothing bad happens? 20180924 18:42:15< Soliton> 1.12 could actually still be since it's certainly years ago. 20180924 18:43:51< Soliton> yes, 1.12 still contains the limit. 20180924 18:44:16< Soliton> so if you meant 1.12 then no need for a test case. 20180924 18:44:48< vn971> Soliton: yes, my report is for 1.12 only. (Sorry, I'm not fully near keyboard.) 20180924 18:45:32< vn971> hk238: my calculator is special though. It's extremely inefficient and not optimized for rounding errors.xD 20180924 18:46:44< Soliton> @BarsukEughen: well depends what you mean by that. the map format still just supports only 9 players and there is only 9 predefined side colors. other than that it should work fine though afaik. 20180924 18:46:56< vn971> In a proper version, additions should be done from small numbers to larger, also "cnk" (get K out of N) should be calculated smarter than by taking 3 factorials. 20180924 18:47:18< Soliton> 9 starting positions i mean. (map format) 20180924 18:48:24< vn971> Soliton: yeah there was a limitation like that as well. I remember it. Had to add some special code to find the spawning place for 10-th AI in CreepWars. 20180924 18:48:55<+wesdiscordbot> i dont mind no leaders and no spawning positions, this is just as i need it 20180924 18:49:10<+wesdiscordbot> about colours, can i add them in? 20180924 18:55:30< vn971> hk238: yeah I'm curious if people will like the new (4p) Afterlife version.)) Don't have time to properly participate myself yet though, so will just watch when something comes up.) 20180924 19:01:28< hk238> I tried it on a local game quickly to see how it works, I think it probably will be played by people 20180924 19:01:42< hk238> I also made 2 versions of a 4player map have you seen them? :d 20180924 19:07:44< vn971> hk238: guilty, not yet.. 20180924 19:08:02< hk238> ok :D 20180924 19:08:19< vn971> OK really sorry, I just like to invent rules all the time and I don't have time to even play out my own maps properly.. Will check later anyway though as it may contain interesting ideas. 20180924 19:13:54-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4dbb684e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 19:14:51-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4dbb684e.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20180924 19:15:16-!- gfgtdf [~Daniel@x4dbb684e.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 19:33:06< Soliton> vn971: btw, i think you asked for ideas of old add-ons to revive. you could checkout wesband. it's an rpg mp campaign. not much about story but about random dungeons and an inventory system. last version is for 1.10. it could use someone with your skill. 20180924 19:37:38< vn971> Soliton: grep-ping this page doesn't give anything: http://addons.wesnoth.org/1.12/ 20180924 19:37:55< vn971> (I mean grepping "wesband" on this page) 20180924 19:38:09< Soliton> i said 1.10. :-) 20180924 19:38:29< Soliton> https://addons.wesnoth.org/1.10/ 20180924 19:41:32< Soliton> here's the forum thread about it: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=21234 20180924 19:55:37< vn971> Soliton: right, sorry. 20180924 20:54:15<+wesdiscordbot> I feel like this chat is better than general for posting this. 20180924 20:54:16<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442775044590927873/493887912132214784/unknown.png 20180924 21:23:57< hk238> are you looking over all the units when generating those charts? 20180924 21:24:06-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20180924 21:24:11< hk238> for an example variability in cost of scouts etc might influence such statistics 20180924 21:28:09<+wesdiscordbot> Value of scouts is multipied by thier movement, but i do not exacly know if that is what you are gatting at. The base test group was composed of main troops eg. spear, grunt. 20180924 21:29:36< hk238> right that's what I mean 20180924 21:30:32< hk238> whether it's based on "main troops" or something else 20180924 21:33:45<+wesdiscordbot> Its based on main troops. That being said dwarf warrior and drake fighter still have mov value diffrent than 5. 20180924 21:34:51< hk238> the stats below seem to contain all units? with light red background? 20180924 21:35:27<+wesdiscordbot> Yes they contain all units 20180924 21:41:40< hk238> I guess this kind of statistic gives some oversight about these things, but I also think that the statistics might be a bit too general to allow making accurate predictions regarding actual in game interactions 20180924 21:42:19< hk238> like if you take the main troops that's on some level comparing a single choice from different factions in these dimensions 20180924 21:42:28< hk238> but when several choices are mixed the stats might be misleading 20180924 21:43:29< hk238> for an example, if you're takign two units and just summing their damages 20180924 21:43:37< hk238> then the sums won't reflect the distributions very well 20180924 21:44:13< hk238> like if you have a unit, like saurian augur, that does something like 6-3 cold and 4-1 impact and then you also have drake glider which does 7-2 impact and 3-3 fire 20180924 21:44:33< hk238> then when you sum these together, the sums don't represent how the types are dispersed on the units 20180924 21:44:54< hk238> like the 4-1 impact is not useful information when the 6-3 cold attack dominates over it 20180924 21:45:03< hk238> although in that case they're on different attack modes 20180924 21:45:23< hk238> meanwhile if you have same sums for those values, but a distribution where the values don't have that kind of hierarchy 20180924 21:45:51< hk238> then the sums better represent the actual values, even though they'd still be very generic 20180924 21:46:17<+wesdiscordbot> I acctualy have done every fraction and at least some matchups. Unfortunatley i couldnt find any proper (over 100 games) statistics on matchups. But on small scale 24 games acctual wr difference was around 2-3%. (You have no reason to balive me untill i get any proper statistics. ) 20180924 21:46:31<+wesdiscordbot> That is why Offensive DPT exists 20180924 21:47:37< hk238> So attacker on average does more damage than defender? That seems obvious? 20180924 21:48:09<+wesdiscordbot> I do not exacly know what you are getting at. 20180924 21:48:26<+wesdiscordbot> Ussualy yes. 20180924 21:48:27< hk238> What does "Offensive DPT" mean? I'm trying to understand these statements :D 20180924 21:48:50< hk238> I thought it's something like 'attacker's damage per turn' 20180924 21:49:10<+wesdiscordbot> Simply put its higher of melee and ranged attack. 20180924 21:49:49< hk238> so it's the average of the higher attackmode's primary selection over all units? :o 20180924 21:50:06< hk238> like e.g. dark adept would have the cold attack counted into that, but not the arcane? 20180924 21:50:15< hk238> and augur would have the cold attack calculated into that, but not the impact? 20180924 21:53:27<+wesdiscordbot> if unit have 2 ranged attacks second attack goes to "Added same attack value" section. In case of augur you preety much only use cold when attacking. Wait you are talking about this light red table? Then every attack is counted into that. 20180924 21:57:25< hk238> In general I'm interested in these statistics and whether they reflect what goes on in the games 20180924 21:57:37< hk238> I was referring to the Offensive DPT, how that is calculated in this case 20180924 21:57:59< hk238> do you have statistics on different faction matchups, like, drakes win 52% of games vs undead, or vice versa 20180924 21:57:59< hk238> ? 20180924 22:00:44<+wesdiscordbot> I was trying to gather them but i would be glad if someone else did this instead of me. It would be much more convincing and on small scale like mine is at this moment comparisons are rather not too accurate. 20180924 22:16:56<+wesdiscordbot> After 3 months of developing i expect my project to be at least somewhat accurate. 😄 Thanks for talk and good night. 20180924 22:17:28< hk238> good night :D 20180924 22:52:25-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20180924 22:52:54-!- Ravana_ [~Ravana@unaffiliated/ravana/x-2327071] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 23:00:57-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: +wesdiscordbot 20180924 23:16:47-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180924 23:16:53-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20180924 23:28:26-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] --- Log closed Tue Sep 25 00:00:47 2018