--- Log opened Mon Sep 03 00:00:10 2018 20180903 00:32:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 00:32:14-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 02:28:16<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, nice snake. 20180903 02:32:26<+wesdiscordbot> I kinda wonder what a pet snake would be like, but I'm not sure if I could handle one...they're just kinda...different, but they are cool. 20180903 02:35:33<+wesdiscordbot> A sea serpent might make a cool pet, you'd just have to do a lot of taming. 20180903 02:37:06<+wesdiscordbot> a pet snake is a lot like a pet rock, very low maintenance but it doesn't do much besides sleep all day πŸ˜„ 20180903 02:37:34<+wesdiscordbot> and "playing with it" usually just means letting it crawl over you 20180903 02:37:37<+wesdiscordbot> AND bite you sometimes 20180903 02:37:51<+wesdiscordbot> I have not had the best of experiences with pet snakes 20180903 02:38:03<+wesdiscordbot> ohhh you had one too?! what kind?? 20180903 02:38:20<+wesdiscordbot> My sister had a Python. I forgot its type.. I think it was a Burmese Python 20180903 02:38:23<+wesdiscordbot> and a Corn snake 20180903 02:38:33<+wesdiscordbot> The latter being indigenous to our area 20180903 02:38:34<+wesdiscordbot> also Growloff managed to have pet sea serpents πŸ˜„ 20180903 02:38:52<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, yeah. 20180903 02:39:16<+wesdiscordbot> Imagine having to explain having a pet sea serpent to your friends. 20180903 02:39:38<+wesdiscordbot> 'this is phil, my pet sea serpent, he won't bite if you don't attack him' 20180903 02:39:40<+wesdiscordbot> what type do you have Inky 20180903 02:39:50<+wesdiscordbot> it's a ball python πŸ˜ƒ 20180903 02:40:29<+wesdiscordbot> the fat ones 20180903 02:40:36<+wesdiscordbot> What kind of stuff do you feed it? Rodents? 20180903 02:41:01<+wesdiscordbot> yeah rats (thawed frozen ones, not live oens) 20180903 02:41:16<+wesdiscordbot> Aah, okay. 20180903 02:41:16<+wesdiscordbot> sorry any rat lovers here πŸ˜„ 20180903 02:41:24<+wesdiscordbot> Ironically she also had pet rats 20180903 02:41:28<+wesdiscordbot> Obviously not to be fed 20180903 02:41:39<+wesdiscordbot> I suppose it's not so ironic 20180903 02:41:40<+wesdiscordbot> I have a pet rat, and a couple dogs. 20180903 02:41:59<+wesdiscordbot> The guests always get weird around the rat. 20180903 02:42:11<+wesdiscordbot> they make good pets 20180903 02:42:54<+wesdiscordbot> yeah rats are cute too 😦 it's just too bad cute snakes have to eat them 😦 20180903 02:42:58<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, sometimes. 20180903 02:43:24<+wesdiscordbot> I know a friend with like 2 pet lizards. They're interesting. 20180903 02:44:30<+wesdiscordbot> I used to have a pet toad for a while, but it disappeared, sadly. 20180903 02:45:08<+wesdiscordbot> oh no 😦 20180903 02:45:22<+wesdiscordbot> Why would you want to have pets 20180903 02:46:00<+wesdiscordbot> Well, pets can be fun, but they can also be infuriating at times. 20180903 02:46:14<+wesdiscordbot> they can keep you company πŸ˜ƒ 20180903 02:46:18<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah 20180903 02:46:31<+wesdiscordbot> I would prefer a Human for company 20180903 02:46:47<+wesdiscordbot> And I wouldn't want to have a pet living with me all the time 20180903 02:46:58<+wesdiscordbot> To each their own, I guess.\ 20180903 02:47:39<+wesdiscordbot> well pets will like you unconditionally unlike people πŸ˜ƒ 20180903 02:48:03<+wesdiscordbot> 😍 20180903 02:48:08<+wesdiscordbot> Will they though, and why is that a good thing 20180903 02:48:46<+wesdiscordbot> well my snake's never tried to bite me so that counts as liking me πŸ˜„ 20180903 02:49:23<+wesdiscordbot> My dog only bit me thrice, maybe quice. [sorry if quice isn't a word] 20180903 02:49:24<+wesdiscordbot> Idk if someone bit me in the right way if count that as liking me :) 20180903 02:49:43<+wesdiscordbot> oh 20180903 02:49:48<+wesdiscordbot> :run: 20180903 02:50:23<+wesdiscordbot> What is that 20180903 02:50:33<+wesdiscordbot> It's a running dwarf. 20180903 02:50:46<+wesdiscordbot> I see 20180903 02:52:35<+wesdiscordbot> Quick question, is the 'haag' in Mountains of Haag pronounced 'Hog'? 20180903 02:54:49< celticminstrel> Yes @Tribes55 it's like an anglerfish. Also I'm pretty sure most pet snakes are constrictors, so they won't bite. 20180903 02:55:21< celticminstrel> I assume "haag" is pronounced like "Hague"? 20180903 02:55:43< celticminstrel> Like a "short" A sound elongated. 20180903 02:55:58<+wesdiscordbot> aah, alright. 20180903 02:56:08< celticminstrel> I put "short" in quotes because what English speakers call short/long is really a tense/lax distinction IIRC. 20180903 02:56:32< celticminstrel> Anyway "haag" looks Dutch to me, so I'd use that as a guideline for pronunciation. 20180903 02:56:49<+wesdiscordbot> I've always pronounced Kalenz 'Kuh-lens', but I'm not sure if it's that or 'Kay-lens'. 20180903 02:57:07< celticminstrel> I've always pronounced it more like "kah-lenz". 20180903 02:57:59< celticminstrel> BTW "quice" is indeed not a word. 20180903 02:58:15< celticminstrel> once-twice-thrices is as far as it goes, there's no generic derivation for further numbers. 20180903 02:58:19< celticminstrel> ^-s 20180903 02:58:34< celticminstrel> (Unless "four times" counts as a generic derivation.) 20180903 02:58:50<+wesdiscordbot> Aah, alright. 20180903 02:59:02<+wesdiscordbot> I'm half-tired, so I wasn't sure if that was a word. 20180903 02:59:40< celticminstrel> Sometimes you can use things that technically aren't words and still be understood, but... "quice" to me feels ambiguous. Is it "four times" or "five times"? 20180903 03:00:02< celticminstrel> I guess you meant four, but in another context that might be harder to guess. 20180903 03:00:50<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, I see. 20180903 03:01:05<+wesdiscordbot> Well, I think I'll be going soon, it's 9pm for me. 20180903 03:01:10< celticminstrel> Fun. 20180903 03:01:14< celticminstrel> Eleven here. >_> 20180903 03:01:36<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, I see. 20180903 03:01:42< celticminstrel> You say that a lot huh. 20180903 03:01:58<+wesdiscordbot> I guess? 20180903 03:03:35<+wesdiscordbot> Now that I think about it, I do say that a lot. 20180903 03:04:34<+wesdiscordbot> I have another pronunciation question. How in the world am I supposed to pronounce Gweddry? 20180903 03:04:54<+wesdiscordbot> Or whatever EI's protag's name is. 20180903 03:04:56< celticminstrel> The "dd" is a hard th sound. 20180903 03:05:04< celticminstrel> The rest I think is pretty obvious? 20180903 03:05:18<+wesdiscordbot> It's just a weird name. 20180903 03:05:24< celticminstrel> This is assuming Welsh pronunciation rules, since the human names in Wesnoth are Welsh-like. 20180903 03:05:37<+wesdiscordbot> Ah. 20180903 03:05:49< celticminstrel> I guess if it's Welsh then the Y is more of an oo sound rather than an ee sound. 20180903 03:06:00< celticminstrel> So "gwedhroo"? 20180903 03:06:11<+wesdiscordbot> I just haven't seen names much like that before, weirdest names I've heard are ones which are just two names mixed together. 20180903 03:06:18< celticminstrel> I'm not sure if this is a real Welsh name... 20180903 03:06:39<+wesdiscordbot> Aah, my bad. 20180903 03:07:17< celticminstrel> Well, it's not on BehindTheName.com so I figure it probably isn't a real Welsh name. 20180903 03:07:25<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, okay. 20180903 03:07:36< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure there are superficially similar names in the Mabinogion and the Arthurian myths though. 20180903 03:07:48<+wesdiscordbot> Alright. 20180903 03:07:50<+wesdiscordbot> Welsh is from Wales, correct? Or am I wrong? 20180903 03:07:53< celticminstrel> Yup. 20180903 03:08:21<+wesdiscordbot> Alright. 20180903 03:10:03<+wesdiscordbot> Celmin, I'm curious. If you could meet one character from Wesnoth canon, who would it be and why? 20180903 03:10:08< celticminstrel> Uhh. 20180903 03:10:13< aeth> Welsh is currently spoken in Wales. At one point, its ancestor language was spoken over most of Great Britain. 20180903 03:10:34< celticminstrel> I dunno about that aeth, there's also Cornish at a minimum. 20180903 03:10:36< aeth> The Saxons and then the Normans invaded, and that's how English happened. 20180903 03:10:45< aeth> celticminstrel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brittonic 20180903 03:10:47< celticminstrel> The Irish also invaded and that's how Scottish happened. 20180903 03:11:39< celticminstrel> Hamel, I'm not sure I can even give a fair answer to that, given how I've played maybe one-third of the mainline campaigns. 20180903 03:12:10<+wesdiscordbot> Alright. 20180903 03:12:29<+wesdiscordbot> Sorry if that was a weird question, like I said, I'm half tired. 20180903 03:13:42< celticminstrel> (Also there were more invaders than just the Saxons and the Normans - Angles, Jutes, etc) 20180903 03:14:34<+wesdiscordbot> Weren't there the Britons at one point, or were they there before the Romans? 20180903 03:19:47<+wesdiscordbot> Well, gonna go for the night now. 20180903 03:35:57-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 03:36:03-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 03:53:06< janebot> wesnoth: D&D Type Add-on, can’t find it (by /u/AceOfBIades) https://redd.it/9ci7og 20180903 03:53:17< celticminstrel> The Britons were there before the Romans, yes. 20180903 04:11:00<+wesdiscordbot> Don't forget the Danes. 20180903 04:51:12< celticminstrel> Yup, them too. 20180903 04:51:30< celticminstrel> A whole bunch of Germanic tribes invaded at around the same time. 20180903 04:51:58< celticminstrel> Normans came later. 20180903 04:52:26< celticminstrel> Irish earlier, Romans even before that. 20180903 04:52:41-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20180903 04:52:50<+wesdiscordbot> Lindisfarne? 20180903 04:52:54< celmin|sleep> ??? 20180903 04:53:16<+wesdiscordbot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc_wCJd9DKw 20180903 04:53:44< celmin|sleep> Can you explain briefly without a video 20180903 04:54:11< celmin|sleep> I checked Wikipedia, it didn't shed any obvious slight on the significance of Lindisfarne here. 20180903 04:54:20< celmin|sleep> ^obvious light 20180903 04:54:30<+wesdiscordbot> idk, I just remembered it 20180903 04:54:40< celmin|sleep> Remembered what exactly? 20180903 04:55:09<+wesdiscordbot> Apparently it was one of the early Viking conquests 20180903 04:55:18< celmin|sleep> Oh? Okay then? 20180903 04:55:42<+wesdiscordbot> Troubling omens were recorded in Lindisfarne prior to the Viking invasion on June 8, 793 CE. It was the seat of the bishop for much of Northeastern Britain. Monks in the scriptorium produced some of the most celebrated illustrated manuscripts, and abroad they helped convert the pagans of Britain. Lindisfarne had been the final resting place of St. Cuthbert, so pilgrims often came and enriched the priory and the town. It never 20180903 04:55:42<+wesdiscordbot> occurred to anyone that when strange ships appeared on the horizon, that they might be hostile. The men who disembarked were fierce, unknown, and merciless. They cut down monks in the churches and looted the church... then left. Bishop Higbald survived, and sent the news across Europe. From there, the frequency of raids only increased and raged across all of Europe. The burgeoning flame of Lindisfarne was almost snuffed out. It was the 20180903 04:55:43<+wesdiscordbot> first time in history that the reach of Christianity shrank, rather than expanded. But what about the other side of the story? These "barbarians," who would become known as Vikings, were striking back at a culture that looked down on them, insulted their faith, and tried to swindle them at trade. They had realized how poorly defended these both the British Isles and mainland Europe were, and how rich they were in fertile land. They put 20180903 04:55:43<+wesdiscordbot> their vast knowledge of shipcraft to work and turned trading routes into raiding routes, finding new lands for them to settle. The Viking Age had begun. 20180903 04:55:46< celmin|sleep> Wagh 20180903 04:55:48<+wesdiscordbot> (from the description) 20180903 04:56:31< celmin|sleep> Interesting. 20180903 04:56:53< celmin|sleep> Yeah I wouldn't be at all surprised if Christians had insulted the worship of Odin. 20180903 04:57:09-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 04:57:12< celmin|sleep> The Jews did the same with Baal centuries earlier, too. 20180903 04:57:47< celmin|sleep> I'm sure there are a lot more cases of it both in Judaism and Christianity. 20180903 04:58:02<+wesdiscordbot> Wouldn't the Norse pantheon have been considered pagan 20180903 04:58:16< celmin|sleep> The Christians considered everything pagan, so... 20180903 04:58:23<+wesdiscordbot> πŸ˜‚ 20180903 04:58:42< celmin|sleep> (Even Judaism, ironically enough.) 20180903 04:58:48<+wesdiscordbot> Even though they then proceeded to steal pagan traditions like Christmas 20180903 04:58:56< celmin|sleep> Haha. You mean Yule. 20180903 04:59:09< celmin|sleep> Yes, they did that, indeed. 20180903 04:59:18<+wesdiscordbot> Whatever you want to call the winter solstice celebrations 20180903 04:59:48< celmin|sleep> Yule / Saturnalia, depending where you lived. 20180903 04:59:56<+wesdiscordbot> Saturnalia was Roman 20180903 05:00:13< celmin|sleep> Yeah, but it was the same time of year and most likely contributed to what we now know as Christmas. 20180903 05:00:34<+wesdiscordbot> It was definitely a smart tactic, though 20180903 05:00:54< celmin|sleep> Whereas Yuletide was a Norse tradition around solstice-time. 20180903 05:00:54<+wesdiscordbot> co-opt the existing celebrations so people would be more willing to convert. 20180903 05:01:25< celmin|sleep> I think Easter is also a co-opted pagan holiday. 20180903 05:01:27<+wesdiscordbot> "Ok, yes, you guys still get to have your giant solstice party, you just need to say you're praising Jesus". 20180903 05:01:31< celmin|sleep> AFAIK it's just those two though. 20180903 05:02:10< celmin|sleep> Easter's around May, right? Well, usually a little earlier, but... that'd be ... the spring equinox? And IIRC Beltane was around that time too. 20180903 05:02:23<+wesdiscordbot> April 20180903 05:02:26< celmin|sleep> Or was Beltane the fall equinox... 20180903 05:02:41< celmin|sleep> Yeah, April, May, pretty close. 20180903 05:03:06<+wesdiscordbot> The church redid the entire calendar to keep Easter around the same time πŸ˜› 20180903 05:03:17< celmin|sleep> I don't think that's quite why they redid the calendar... 20180903 05:03:35<+wesdiscordbot> Pretty sure it was a major reason 20180903 05:03:47< celmin|sleep> Wasn't it because they realized it was drifting 20180903 05:04:05<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, the inaccuracies of the Julian calendar were making Easter later and later. 20180903 05:04:12<+wesdiscordbot> that's my poit 20180903 05:04:20< celmin|sleep> Hmm, if you say so. 20180903 05:04:51<+wesdiscordbot> The switch to the Gregorian calendar basically meant 17 days were skipped 20180903 05:05:02< celmin|sleep> ...thinking about it, I think the fall equinox would've been Samhain, not Beltane. 20180903 05:05:59<+wesdiscordbot> Sounds about right. 20180903 05:06:14<+wesdiscordbot> Samhain (/ˈsɑːwΙͺn, ˈsaʊΙͺn/; Irish: [sΛ Ι™uΙͺnΚ²]) is a Gaelic festival marking the end of the harvest season and the beginning of winter or the "darker half" of the year. 20180903 05:06:17< celmin|sleep> So Beltane is like May 1. 20180903 05:06:36<+wesdiscordbot> Why are you so versed in celtic holidays 20180903 05:06:48< celmin|sleep> I dunno. They're interesting? 20180903 05:07:09< celmin|sleep> Plus I read The Mists of Avalon and similar books? 20180903 05:07:10<+wesdiscordbot> true 20180903 05:07:31<+wesdiscordbot> the Celts have some fucked up myths, IIRC. 20180903 05:07:40< celmin|sleep> Oh? Which ones are you thinking of? 20180903 05:07:45<+wesdiscordbot> I don't remember. 20180903 05:07:47< celmin|sleep> (So do the Greeks though. And probably the Norse too.) 20180903 05:07:49<+wesdiscordbot> πŸ˜› 20180903 05:08:03< celmin|sleep> Well that sure is helpful. 20180903 05:08:15<+wesdiscordbot> The Mists of Avalon is one of my favorite books! 20180903 05:08:32< celmin|sleep> :D 20180903 05:08:37<+wesdiscordbot> I had a book of... I think Celtic myths when I was younger than I remember not being allowed to read until I was older since it was heavy stuff. Could have been something else, tho. 20180903 05:08:44< celmin|sleep> I should re-read it someday. 20180903 05:09:30<+wesdiscordbot> But yeah, the Greeks and Norse have their fair share of weird myths too. 20180903 05:09:42<+wesdiscordbot> Leta and the Swan.... Loki and that horse... 20180903 05:09:44< celmin|sleep> I feel like the Greeks have more, but not sure. 20180903 05:10:02< celmin|sleep> Yeah Loki would certainly have a ton of bizarre stuff. 20180903 05:10:21< celmin|sleep> Speaking of swans, the Children of Llyr 20180903 05:10:30< celmin|sleep> Not sure why I capitalized children. 20180903 05:11:09< celmin|sleep> Llyr is the Welsh spelling but I think there's an Irish version too... Lir probably? 20180903 05:11:18<+wesdiscordbot> I'm mostly unfamiliar with Norse myths 20180903 05:11:19<+wesdiscordbot> tbh 20180903 05:11:22< celmin|sleep> I see. 20180903 05:11:43< celmin|sleep> So you don't know why Odin has only one eye, huh. 20180903 05:12:03<+wesdiscordbot> Didn't he fight some frost giants. 20180903 05:12:30< celmin|sleep> Haha no, it's not a war wound. It was a sacrifice in exchange for power or knowledge. I don't remember all the details though. 20180903 05:12:44<+wesdiscordbot> Ohh... yeah, that sounds familar. 20180903 05:12:47<+wesdiscordbot> familiar 20180903 05:12:48< celmin|sleep> I mean, he probably did fight some frost giants but that's not how he lost an eye. 20180903 05:12:56<+wesdiscordbot> My next guess would have been something to do with the Vanir. 20180903 05:13:11< celmin|sleep> Probably in exchange for knowledge, not power. I don't think it had anything to do with the Vanir. 20180903 05:13:46< celmin|sleep> There was also something about him hanging himself in the same story. 20180903 05:13:47<+wesdiscordbot> something about a well 20180903 05:13:51< celmin|sleep> Maybe yeah. 20180903 05:13:56<+wesdiscordbot> Shadowm seems to have been heavily influenced by Norse mythology 20180903 05:14:01<+wesdiscordbot> he paid an eye for a drink from the well 20180903 05:14:10<+wesdiscordbot> and gained some knowledge or whatever 20180903 05:14:17<+wesdiscordbot> or wisdom 20180903 05:14:17< celmin|sleep> Nine runes or something. 20180903 05:14:36<+wesdiscordbot> the tree of life is the most obvious 20180903 05:14:42< celmin|sleep> Probably the Norns were involved. 20180903 05:15:00< celmin|sleep> Is the tree of life really Norse mythology? I think it might not be. 20180903 05:15:19<+wesdiscordbot> Yggdrasil 20180903 05:15:25< celmin|sleep> Certainly there's Yggdrasil but that doesn't really evoke "tree of life" for me. 20180903 05:15:34<+wesdiscordbot> yggdrasil is the world tree 20180903 05:15:41<+wesdiscordbot> :thonk: 20180903 05:15:45<+wesdiscordbot> there's a difference 20180903 05:15:46<+wesdiscordbot> ? 20180903 05:15:48< celmin|sleep> Tree of life mostly makes me think of the garden of Eden and... I think there was something else too... 20180903 05:16:02<+wesdiscordbot> tree of life implies something else to me too 20180903 05:16:07<+wesdiscordbot> HM 20180903 05:16:08<+wesdiscordbot> life =/= world 20180903 05:16:10< celmin|sleep> What does it imply to you? 20180903 05:16:18<+wesdiscordbot> I mean, the tree in Eden was the Tree of *Knowledge 20180903 05:16:21<+wesdiscordbot> well trees are known to be long lived 20180903 05:16:23<+wesdiscordbot> not Life 20180903 05:16:25< celmin|sleep> There were two trees in Eden. 20180903 05:16:36<+wesdiscordbot> so a tree of life to me would be something related to some kind of essence of life 20180903 05:16:38<+wesdiscordbot> I mean technically there were a lot of trees in Eden πŸ˜› 20180903 05:16:41<+wesdiscordbot> e.g. if you eat its fruit you gain immortality 20180903 05:17:03< celmin|sleep> IIRC, God said that Adam must not eat from two trees - the tree of knowledge, and the tree of life. 20180903 05:17:04<+wesdiscordbot> not quite the same as a world tree, which is just an immense structure holding up world(s) 20180903 05:17:06< celmin|sleep> Am I wrong? 20180903 05:17:12<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi perhaps we're thinking of the tree with the Golden Apples in Greek myth? 20180903 05:17:18<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: you're wrong, I think 20180903 05:17:22< celmin|sleep> Then he ate from the tree of knowledge but was kicked from Eden before he could eat of the tree of life? 20180903 05:17:25<+wesdiscordbot> it was just the tree of knowledge 20180903 05:17:36< celmin|sleep> I could be mixing it up with something else. 20180903 05:17:38<+wesdiscordbot> Eve ate the apple 20180903 05:17:42<+wesdiscordbot> Not Adam 20180903 05:17:47<+wesdiscordbot> yes I think it's that one 20180903 05:17:50< celmin|sleep> Pretty sure they both did. 20180903 05:17:58<+wesdiscordbot> hmm 20180903 05:18:00<+wesdiscordbot> actually, yeah 20180903 05:18:03<+wesdiscordbot> but she did first 20180903 05:18:06< celmin|sleep> Yeah, I thought of the garden of the Hesperides too. 20180903 05:18:09<+wesdiscordbot> then she might have convinced him 20180903 05:18:15< celmin|sleep> (Where the Golden Apples were IIRC) 20180903 05:18:20<+wesdiscordbot> the tree of life is in Genesis 20180903 05:18:30<+wesdiscordbot> ah, yeah, that sounds about right (the Hesperides ) 20180903 05:18:36<+wesdiscordbot> where I think it's supposed to be something related to eternal life in Eden 20180903 05:18:53< celmin|sleep> Anyway, Yggdrasil is more like a bridge between worlds. 20180903 05:18:55<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know 20180903 05:19:01<+wesdiscordbot> but I think knowledge was the one that was forbidden strictly 20180903 05:19:12<+wesdiscordbot> What I do know is that God posed a crappy guard at the gate 20180903 05:19:16<+wesdiscordbot> posted 20180903 05:19:17< celmin|sleep> It connects most of the realms of Norse myth IIRC. 20180903 05:19:30<+wesdiscordbot> Guy let the snake waddle on in πŸ˜› 20180903 05:19:33< celmin|sleep> Niflheim, Helheim, Asgard, Midgard, the dwarf realm... 20180903 05:19:40< celmin|sleep> Wait what 20180903 05:19:48<+wesdiscordbot> It was clearly intended as a test 20180903 05:19:49< celmin|sleep> Oh right. 20180903 05:19:59<+wesdiscordbot> He fucking rigged humanity's fate. 20180903 05:20:08< celmin|sleep> Yeah. 20180903 05:20:10<+wesdiscordbot> It doesn't make sense, tho 20180903 05:20:11<+wesdiscordbot> the snake was planted as a test to see if humanity could resist the pull of evil of whatever 20180903 05:20:12<+wesdiscordbot> or* 20180903 05:20:18<+wesdiscordbot> The Snake is supposed to be Satan. 20180903 05:20:24< celmin|sleep> In Jewish myth, Satan actually works for God, so... 20180903 05:20:37<+wesdiscordbot> :thonk: 20180903 05:20:42<+wesdiscordbot> "what happens if I give creatures with free will the option to choose sin?" 20180903 05:21:06< celmin|sleep> Satan is not evil, he's merely the tempter - a test of virtue or whatever. 20180903 05:21:22<+wesdiscordbot> Honestly, the Eden myth is rather stupid, since the implication is that we should be good little obedient humans and not seek knowledge 20180903 05:21:43< celmin|sleep> In fact Satan might even not have free will? 20180903 05:22:03< celmin|sleep> At least in Islam, the angels have no free will, not quite sure if that was the case in Judaism though. 20180903 05:22:04<+wesdiscordbot> You can draw a parallel to the myth of Prometheus. "How dare you give humans fire?! Humans aren't supposed to have fire!" 20180903 05:22:17<+wesdiscordbot> well 20180903 05:22:20< celmin|sleep> (On the other hand, Islam recasts Satan as a djinn, with free will, so...) 20180903 05:22:26<+wesdiscordbot> with knowledge comes the capacity for great "evil" 20180903 05:22:34< celmin|sleep> Yeah, Prometheus is definitely the same sort of myth! 20180903 05:22:34<+wesdiscordbot> and with fire comes the capacity for great destruction 20180903 05:22:47<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: Satan is supposed to be the fallen angel Lucifer, so he kinda does need free will 20180903 05:22:54<+wesdiscordbot> you can see why, if hypothetically there are some kind of deities 20180903 05:22:55<+wesdiscordbot> because rebelling is his whole thing 20180903 05:22:57< celmin|sleep> Not necessarily. 20180903 05:23:02< celmin|sleep> Not if the rebellion is an act. 20180903 05:23:09<+wesdiscordbot> they would not want to give us unstable, unpredictable humans such tools 20180903 05:23:47< celmin|sleep> I think the identification of Satan with Lucifer the rebellious angel is a Christian thing though; in Judaism IIUC he was Samael. 20180903 05:23:50<+wesdiscordbot> I'm sure you could get a couple theologians arguing for hours whether Lucifer had free will πŸ˜› 20180903 05:24:27<+wesdiscordbot> I honestly know basically nothing about the mythologic side of Christianity. 20180903 05:24:33< celmin|sleep> Lucifer is a Latin name after all, so it'd be weird for that to be Jewish. 20180903 05:24:35<+wesdiscordbot> the whole pantheon of Angels and yadayada 20180903 05:24:55<+wesdiscordbot> I don't think his original name in the Catholic Bible is ever mentioned? 20180903 05:24:58< celmin|sleep> There aren't that many named angels - just Michael and Gabriel I think. 20180903 05:25:03<+wesdiscordbot> there are apparently wheels and thrones and all kinds of weird whatsits 20180903 05:25:22< celmin|sleep> Yeah Jewish angels are kinda eldritch beings. 20180903 05:25:24<+wesdiscordbot> Lucifer is just a title. 20180903 05:25:30< celmin|sleep> That could be so, yeah. 20180903 05:25:39< celmin|sleep> It does mean "the light-bearer". 20180903 05:26:04<+wesdiscordbot> think it can also refer to venus 20180903 05:26:07<+wesdiscordbot> Or morning star 20180903 05:26:10<+wesdiscordbot> :thonk: 20180903 05:26:11< celmin|sleep> Lucifer? 20180903 05:26:21< celmin|sleep> Yes Venus is the morning star. 20180903 05:26:28<+wesdiscordbot> Morning Star is Morgensomething 20180903 05:26:33< celmin|sleep> Morgen what now 20180903 05:26:40<+wesdiscordbot> Morning star is one of several interpretations of his title 20180903 05:26:46< celmin|sleep> Hmm, interesting. 20180903 05:26:55<+wesdiscordbot> well 20180903 05:27:00<+wesdiscordbot> lucifer isn't always male either, I think 20180903 05:27:11< celmin|sleep> Did the Romans identify Venus with the planet? 20180903 05:27:20<+wesdiscordbot> Not sure 20180903 05:27:23< celmin|sleep> Did they know the morning and evening star was Venus? 20180903 05:27:27<+wesdiscordbot> dono 20180903 05:28:02< celmin|sleep> I'd assume Lucifer in the original is kinda gender-neutral TBH. 20180903 05:28:10< celmin|sleep> I don't think angels are supposed to have genders. 20180903 05:28:11<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not sure abou tthe whole thing of "lucifer" being a title 20180903 05:28:25< celmin|sleep> Satan is a title too, for the record. IIRC it means "the accuser". 20180903 05:28:46<+wesdiscordbot> I mean you could say God is a title πŸ˜› 20180903 05:28:50< celmin|sleep> In Islam he's called "Iblis". Some Jewish sources seem to name him "Samael". 20180903 05:28:51<+wesdiscordbot> It is 20180903 05:28:53< celmin|sleep> Yeah, God is a title. 20180903 05:28:57< celmin|sleep> His name is YHWH. 20180903 05:29:09<+wesdiscordbot> I always felt like it was weird to refer to God as he 20180903 05:29:22<+wesdiscordbot> Yahweh is the Jewish name for God, isn't it. 20180903 05:29:23<+wesdiscordbot> but guess that's tradition 20180903 05:29:40< celmin|sleep> Yahweh / Jehovah are the two main ways you it rendered. 20180903 05:29:50<+wesdiscordbot> Indeed. 20180903 05:30:11<+wesdiscordbot> Allah for Muslims. 20180903 05:30:21< celmin|sleep> That's a title though. 20180903 05:30:38< celmin|sleep> IIRC Allah literally comes from al-ilyah, meaning "the god". 20180903 05:30:58<+wesdiscordbot> I don't think there's a canonical "name of God", though 20180903 05:31:26<+wesdiscordbot> Define "canon". 20180903 05:31:30< celmin|sleep> Islam teaches that there's somethink like a hundred names of God, but I think if you look up a list you'll find they're basically all titles; not sure if they have an equivalent of YHWH. 20180903 05:31:40< celmin|sleep> ^something 20180903 05:31:47<+wesdiscordbot> Dude, add the A's 20180903 05:31:56<+wesdiscordbot> The main issues with all Abrahamic religions and their denominations is that no-one ever agrees on which ones are the canonical texts. 20180903 05:32:03< celmin|sleep> But anyway, at least in Judaism, YHWH is definitely the canonical name of God. 20180903 05:32:11<+wesdiscordbot> God the Father? 20180903 05:32:18< celmin|sleep> Not Yahweh, not Jehovah, jsut YHWH. 20180903 05:32:23<+wesdiscordbot> pretty sure YHWH is proper and the vowels are just added 20180903 05:32:23< celmin|sleep> ^just 20180903 05:32:31<+wesdiscordbot> to make it sayable 20180903 05:32:34< celmin|sleep> The implication being that no-one actually knows the proper vowels to insert. 20180903 05:32:50< celmin|sleep> Because it was written in Hebrew, which doesn't write the vowels (they're just implied). 20180903 05:32:58<+wesdiscordbot> Old Hebrew at least. 20180903 05:33:02< celmin|sleep> Fair enough. 20180903 05:33:08<+wesdiscordbot> They reconstructed Hebrew, though. 20180903 05:33:26<+wesdiscordbot> mythology so complicated =_= 20180903 05:33:32< celmin|sleep> That doesn't mean they know the vowels that ancient speakers would've used in YHWH. 20180903 05:33:49<+wesdiscordbot> Yahweh is how it's usually said, tho. 20180903 05:33:49< celmin|sleep> Heh, I suppose it is. :P 20180903 05:34:01< celmin|sleep> Yahweh is a common pronunciation, yes; but so is Jehovah. 20180903 05:34:31<+wesdiscordbot> Is that the name of God the Father, tho, or God the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the Trinity πŸ˜› 20180903 05:34:46< celmin|sleep> It's Jewish, so none of those. 20180903 05:34:48<+wesdiscordbot> Trinitarianism makes everything complicated 20180903 05:34:49<+wesdiscordbot> Just the Old Testament God. 20180903 05:34:51< celmin|sleep> Or all of them. 20180903 05:35:02< celmin|sleep> But yeah, Jewish. Not Christian. 20180903 05:35:04<+wesdiscordbot> ah, true, shadowm makes a good point 20180903 05:35:18<+wesdiscordbot> the Trinity is indeed Christian 20180903 05:35:29< celmin|sleep> These religions may be derived from each other but the are still pretty distinct. 20180903 05:35:33< celmin|sleep> ^they 20180903 05:35:48< celmin|sleep> (Judaism / Christianity / Islam / etc) 20180903 05:35:57< celmin|sleep> (Yes there's more than jsut those three.) 20180903 05:35:59< celmin|sleep> ^just 20180903 05:36:00<+wesdiscordbot> Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all basically worship the same god, tho. 20180903 05:36:15< celmin|sleep> Sort of. 20180903 05:36:17<+wesdiscordbot> Well, different interpretations of the Abrahamic God. 20180903 05:36:20< celmin|sleep> Yeah. 20180903 05:36:27<+wesdiscordbot> Indeed 20180903 05:36:36< celmin|sleep> They're not the only ones though. 20180903 05:36:46<+wesdiscordbot> The main ones. 20180903 05:36:51< celmin|sleep> I suppose. 20180903 05:37:39<+wesdiscordbot> Funny enough, Islam claims a direct link to the Abrahamic lineage via Jacob's half-brother Ishmael 20180903 05:37:43< celmin|sleep> Yup. 20180903 05:37:54< celmin|sleep> Why is that funny though? 20180903 05:37:59<+wesdiscordbot> think as far as religions go, christianity and islam are the largest 20180903 05:38:12<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180903 05:38:15<+wesdiscordbot> in that order 20180903 05:38:15< celmin|sleep> Really? 20180903 05:38:25<+wesdiscordbot> Yahweh is the name for God. God ("what") is made up of three Persons ("who"): the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's the historical Christian view of God. Both Islam and Judaism reject this teaching. So, no, they all take very different views of God. 20180903 05:39:20<+wesdiscordbot> Keep in mind the establishment of Trinitarianism as orthodoxy was a big debate 20180903 05:39:32< celmin|sleep> A lot of Christians also disagreed with Trinitarianism, mind you. 20180903 05:39:40<+wesdiscordbot> Those were the Arians. 20180903 05:39:45< celmin|sleep> I don't think so. 20180903 05:39:45<+wesdiscordbot> (followers of Arius) 20180903 05:39:47< celmin|sleep> Or not just them. 20180903 05:39:59<+wesdiscordbot> well, he was certainly the big one 20180903 05:40:04< celmin|sleep> Might've been. 20180903 05:40:35<+wesdiscordbot> The Council of Nicaea was basically convened to settle to Arian schism 20180903 05:40:38< celmin|sleep> There's other Christian offshoots that fell on the wrong side of that debate, like Gnostics. 20180903 05:41:05<+wesdiscordbot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1ZZeCDGHJE 20180903 05:41:32< celmin|sleep> Just FTR, I have no intention of watching any videos today, so if you want to make a point, please say it instead. 20180903 05:41:48<+wesdiscordbot> just poiting it out as a good resource 20180903 05:42:01< celmin|sleep> That's the second time you've forgotten the N in point. 20180903 05:42:10<+wesdiscordbot> damn keyboard 20180903 05:42:16<+wesdiscordbot> πŸ˜› 20180903 05:42:17< celmin|sleep> Well anyway. 20180903 05:42:24< celmin|sleep> Mythology is fun. 20180903 05:42:28<+wesdiscordbot> indeed 20180903 05:42:34<+wesdiscordbot> very important to know 20180903 05:42:43< celmin|sleep> The most important, when you're a writer. 20180903 05:42:56< celmin|sleep> Full of things you never would've thought of. :P 20180903 05:42:57<+wesdiscordbot> Also important to know the history of religions 20180903 05:43:00<+wesdiscordbot> Modalists ("God is one person, but takes on three roles") and subordinationists ("Jesus is a little 'g' God, but not a big G God) have been outside the faith since the earliest Christian writings. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Clement, etc., all second century and earlier (the latter two are first century) explicitly affirm the modern conception of the Trinity in their writings. 20180903 05:43:41< celmin|sleep> The modern conception of the Trinity is self-contradictory though. 20180903 05:43:55< celmin|sleep> So IMO it's quite amazing that it became dominant. 20180903 05:44:10<+wesdiscordbot> When you understand things like, say, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism basically worshipping the same Abrahamic god, it does put some stuff into perspective. 20180903 05:44:30< celmin|sleep> It's the same but not the same. 20180903 05:44:32<+wesdiscordbot> For clarity the latter two people are technically either very late first or very early second century. 20180903 05:44:39< celmin|sleep> Much like Venus is Aphrodite but not Aphrodite. 20180903 05:44:47< celmin|sleep> And Jupiter is Zeus but not Zeus. 20180903 05:44:55< celmin|sleep> And Herms is Apollo but not Apollo. 20180903 05:44:59< celmin|sleep> ^Hermes 20180903 05:45:03< celmin|sleep> Wait. 20180903 05:45:06<+wesdiscordbot> You mean Mercury 20180903 05:45:08<+wesdiscordbot> ^ 20180903 05:45:09< celmin|sleep> I messed that last one up. 20180903 05:45:19< celmin|sleep> Mercury is Hermes but not Hermes, right? 20180903 05:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> Yes 20180903 05:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> I think so 20180903 05:45:34< celmin|sleep> I think the Romans would've identified Apollo with... Sol? 20180903 05:45:44< celmin|sleep> Just a guess there, not entirely sure, should look it up. 20180903 05:45:48<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180903 05:45:57<+wesdiscordbot> I don't even remember, sun deities are booooriing 20180903 05:46:01<+wesdiscordbot> The point I meant to make is that understanding the connections between religions means they aren't just "outside" forces 20180903 05:46:21< celmin|sleep> Basically all of this is the Romans doing with gods the exact same thing the Christians would later do with holidays. 20180903 05:47:21< celmin|sleep> Okay, according to Wikipedia, Apollo actually had the same name as a Greek and Roman god. 20180903 05:47:40< celmin|sleep> If there was a god named Sol he would've been identified with the Greek Titan Helios. 20180903 05:48:41<+wesdiscordbot> And if you understand history, the whole European "we're the master races, the rest of the world is savages" attitude is absolutely comical when you consider it was the East, such as the Byzantines, the Persians/Iranians, and the Arabs (post-conquest), that basically kept the light of Rome burning throughout the Dark Ages before the Renascence. 20180903 05:48:59< celmin|sleep> It was mostly the Moors in Europe. 20180903 05:49:12< celmin|sleep> Which were Islamic Arabs who conquered Spain? 20180903 05:49:30<+wesdiscordbot> Not sure 20180903 05:49:38<+wesdiscordbot> But it was definitely more than just that 20180903 05:49:47< celmin|sleep> Not sure if the Byzantines really count. 20180903 05:50:00<+wesdiscordbot> They do 20180903 05:50:01< celmin|sleep> More importantly, what's so special about the light of Rome? 20180903 05:50:14<+wesdiscordbot> Catholicism 20180903 05:51:07< celmin|sleep> At least two tyrannical regimes (plus the United States of America) have co-opted Rome's eagle though. 20180903 05:51:15< celmin|sleep> IIRC 20180903 05:51:28< celmin|sleep> So I'm not really sure what's so great about a light of Rome. 20180903 05:51:47<+wesdiscordbot> Nothing at all for you obviously 20180903 05:51:50<+wesdiscordbot> I suppose more specifically, they kept the knowledge of the ancient world alive. Ever consider (as I hadn't until recently) how the Romans had sewer systems, yet it took until the 19th century and people like John Snow to "rediscover" the greatness of sewers? πŸ˜› 20180903 05:52:00<+wesdiscordbot> But for the rest of the world Rome was pretty fucking important 20180903 05:52:13< celmin|sleep> Yeah, it's true that Romans had some advanced technology, such as central heating. 20180903 05:52:43<+wesdiscordbot> And then there's the ancient writings, such as Euclid 20180903 05:52:49< celmin|sleep> But how much of that was really kept alive? We still don't know how they made concrete. 20180903 05:53:11<+wesdiscordbot> are you guys basically historians? πŸ˜‚ 20180903 05:53:20< celmin|sleep> Haha 20180903 05:53:25<+wesdiscordbot> The Bronze Age collapse set civilization back centuries. We're lucky the fall of Rome wasn't complete, or else we might not be having this conversation today. 20180903 05:53:34< celmin|sleep> ...uhh 20180903 05:53:40< celmin|sleep> What? Bronze Age collapse? 20180903 05:53:45< celmin|sleep> Rome was post-Bronze Age. 20180903 05:53:56<+wesdiscordbot> Yes 20180903 05:54:14<+wesdiscordbot> I'm referring to a prior civilization-ending calamity 20180903 05:54:22< celmin|sleep> I have no idea what you're talking about then. 20180903 05:54:45< celmin|sleep> I mean it sounded like you were equating the fall of Rome to the Bronze Age collapse somehow. 20180903 05:55:45<+wesdiscordbot> I'm saying we might not be as advanced as we are today if Eastern Roman Empire and other empires and kingdoms in the east hadn't preserved much of its knowledge. 20180903 05:55:58< celmin|sleep> Eh, I dunno. That's really hard to predict. 20180903 05:56:09< celmin|sleep> It's not like Rome was the only advanced civilization out there. 20180903 05:56:38<+wesdiscordbot> think as far as advancements go, last 200 years have basically been exponential compared to everything else? 20180903 05:56:42<+wesdiscordbot> multiple advanced civilizations fell at the end of the bronze age. 20180903 05:57:09< celmin|sleep> Dunno, Yumi. 20180903 05:57:11< celmin|sleep> Maybe. 20180903 05:57:23<+wesdiscordbot> brbgotta check on car 20180903 05:57:25<+wesdiscordbot> 🀷 20180903 05:57:34< celmin|sleep> And I need to sleep so... 20180903 05:57:39< celmin|sleep> Good night. 20180903 05:57:44<+wesdiscordbot> πŸ’€ 20180903 06:09:19<+wesdiscordbot> If we didn't have this conversation today then we wouldnt care and we wouldnt think of it 20180903 06:09:43<+wesdiscordbot> a lot of mistakes have been made πŸ™ 20180903 06:10:07<+wesdiscordbot> We could colonize solar system today if certain things in history didnt happen 20180903 06:10:17<+wesdiscordbot> or did happen 20180903 06:10:50<+wesdiscordbot> I think you're too optimistic about that. 20180903 06:11:03<+wesdiscordbot> Going as far as Mars would take literally years. 20180903 06:11:30<+wesdiscordbot> And im saying we could reach pluto xD 😝😝😝😝 20180903 06:11:54<+wesdiscordbot> yeah I remain corrected lol xP 20180903 06:12:00<+wesdiscordbot> sorry im just really tired 20180903 06:12:13<+wesdiscordbot> and also upset because i tied in a dead winning chess position 20180903 06:12:19<+wesdiscordbot> It would be even psychologically extremely taxing for the astronauts when they have no one but each other for company for such a long time. 20180903 06:12:22<+wesdiscordbot> I should have fucking won this!!! 20180903 06:12:22<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/486055830672637972/image0.png 20180903 06:12:25<+wesdiscordbot> oh well xD 20180903 06:13:00<+wesdiscordbot> yeah true haha xD 20180903 06:13:32<+wesdiscordbot> Playing against a chess engine, I see (judging from the node count and speed figure at the top of the screen). 20180903 06:13:44<+wesdiscordbot> Oh sorry for the confusion, thats not what it was 20180903 06:13:52<+wesdiscordbot> I played in real life, otb game 20180903 06:14:01<+wesdiscordbot> i just replugged in all the moves into the computer to analyze it 20180903 06:14:13<+wesdiscordbot> after the game only of course πŸ˜πŸ˜‹ 20180903 06:18:37< zookeeper> all the other planets in the solar system seem like very sordid places to live in. 20180903 06:20:38<+wesdiscordbot> we built safe environments for us, sometimes on top of/in replacement of some of once most dangerous places to inhabit 20180903 06:21:33<+wesdiscordbot> I guess mostly the ocean 20180903 06:21:47<+wesdiscordbot> didn't the aztecs make a huge artificial land extension out of dirt? 20180903 06:21:55<+wesdiscordbot> on top of the ocean 20180903 06:22:53<+wesdiscordbot> oh yaaa artificial islands!!! 😘🀀 20180903 06:24:40<+wesdiscordbot> Other planets are a whole different story 20180903 06:25:13<+wesdiscordbot> Higher magnitude of technological advancement required 20180903 06:25:19<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. 20180903 06:25:24<+wesdiscordbot> We can't do it now. 20180903 06:25:46<+wesdiscordbot> The fun part of space travel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism_syndrome 20180903 06:25:55<+wesdiscordbot> But earlier i said that if some things in history happened or didnt happen then we could possibly colonize other planets by now 20180903 06:26:06<+wesdiscordbot> We have no way of knowing 20180903 06:26:31<+wesdiscordbot> It was a figure of speech 20180903 06:26:34<+wesdiscordbot> Because 20180903 06:26:46<+wesdiscordbot> of talks about how we wouldnt be talking on discord anymore if certain things happened 20180903 06:26:50<+wesdiscordbot> like rome falling more 20180903 06:27:02<+wesdiscordbot> we wouldnt care because we didnt have this in the first place 20180903 06:27:05< zookeeper> arguably, the asteroid belt would presumably provide a lot of good big rocks to hurl at earth, but that's about the only good reason i can think of for space colonization off the top of my head. 20180903 06:27:22<+wesdiscordbot> The world today is a cumulation of every single day that came before. That includes the disasters, the setbacks, and the failures alongside the successes and triumphs. 20180903 06:27:40<+wesdiscordbot> There's no way to know what the world would look like if Rome hadn't fallen, for example 20180903 06:27:42<+wesdiscordbot> 😊😊😊 yeah hehe :) 20180903 06:27:51<+wesdiscordbot> Fair!! ☺️ 20180903 06:28:14<+wesdiscordbot> Or whether the fall of the Byzantine empire too would have set us back further. 20180903 06:28:28<+wesdiscordbot> All we know is it would have been different. 20180903 06:29:14<+wesdiscordbot> Ooh reminds me, I had a question related; is it true that when mongols invaded China that they set china back 1000 years behind in technology? I was really skeptical about this 20180903 06:29:31<+wesdiscordbot> because remainings would have been around too 20180903 06:30:18<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know. 20180903 06:30:24<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not an expert on Chinese history. 20180903 06:30:38<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, thank you anyways of course! :) 20180903 06:32:56<+wesdiscordbot> And yes, it is true we wouldn't care about Discord if Discord were never invented. I meant what I said more in a "we might not even have the internet" way. 20180903 06:33:26<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, I think the internet is the biggest change ever made in human history 20180903 06:33:37<+wesdiscordbot> in regards to how it impacts human lifestyle 20180903 06:33:54<+wesdiscordbot> I think it's the discovery of electricity. 20180903 06:34:05<+wesdiscordbot> Also big! :) 20180903 06:34:16<+wesdiscordbot> And I fucking love nikola tesla he is so badass 20180903 06:34:36<+wesdiscordbot> I definitely agree with @Yumi that the past 200 years or so have been exponential in terms of advancement 20180903 06:35:19<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm the more concentrated people are the faster they resarch stuff is irl. 20180903 06:35:43<+wesdiscordbot> IMHO, what primarily led the human race to the modern age was the renaissance - when the power of the catholic church faded, and it was possible to conduct scientific research again. 20180903 06:36:04<+wesdiscordbot> Wouldn't that have been the Enlightenment? 20180903 06:36:25<+wesdiscordbot> The Church still had great power in the 16th century 20180903 06:36:27<+wesdiscordbot> didn't it? 20180903 06:37:20<+wesdiscordbot> both the enlightenment and renaissance did :) 20180903 06:37:25<+wesdiscordbot> Also, keep in mind the Church wasn't just purely anti-science 20180903 06:37:27<+wesdiscordbot> It did, at least in Poland. Not realy sure about western countries. 20180903 06:37:29<+wesdiscordbot> *lead to modern day 20180903 06:37:31<+wesdiscordbot> It'sa bit more complicated than that 20180903 06:38:01<+wesdiscordbot> Remember, the Church was just as much a political power as a religious one until relatively recently. 20180903 06:38:51<+wesdiscordbot> see also: the Papal States. 20180903 06:41:57<+wesdiscordbot> I think electricity allowed for a huge new franchise of inventions to occur, because it essentially lets you control organized energy 20180903 06:42:15<+wesdiscordbot> Guns!!! ❀️❀️❀️ 20180903 06:42:26<+wesdiscordbot> Technology is largely about energy. 20180903 06:42:30<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20180903 06:43:28<+wesdiscordbot> Even many technologies in science fiction would be theoretically possible, such as laser weapons or interstellar space travel. The main problem with them is that they require much more energy than we are capable of generating. 20180903 06:43:40<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20180903 06:44:17<+wesdiscordbot> Creating a wormhole, for example 20180903 06:44:26<+wesdiscordbot> i wonder about thorium reactors 20180903 06:44:57<+wesdiscordbot> laser weapons are already possible 20180903 06:45:04<+wesdiscordbot> Wormholes would also need some kind of antigravity to keep them open. At this point stable wormholes aren't even theoretically possible. 20180903 06:45:22<+wesdiscordbot> they also basically exist 20180903 06:45:23<+wesdiscordbot> :p 20180903 06:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> LFTR reactors; there was a project for it in 1940s onward I think maybe 1960s it was, and well what I heard is that one can generate energy enough to last over 1000 years 20180903 06:45:32<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi I know, but they aren't practical. They require too large batteries, or alternatively they need to be stationary. 20180903 06:46:05<+wesdiscordbot> @jyrkive isn't it negative mass, not antigravity? 20180903 06:46:19<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor includes advantages and disadvantages 20180903 06:46:20<+wesdiscordbot> I think if research groups really, really wanted to 20180903 06:46:35<+wesdiscordbot> they could make very efficient, mobile laser weapons 20180903 06:46:40<+wesdiscordbot> but most groups don't really want to do that 20180903 06:47:40< zookeeper> doesn't at least the US already have some laser weapons in service for anti-missile use or whatever? 20180903 06:47:58<+wesdiscordbot> probably 20180903 06:48:01-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20180903 06:48:18< zookeeper> i seem to recall that they are already a thing, and presumably practical in some limited usecases. 20180903 06:49:59<+wesdiscordbot> most likely the newest technology we don't know about yet :p 20180903 06:51:58<+wesdiscordbot> Does anybody know anything about thorium reactors 20180903 06:52:11<+wesdiscordbot> most/all of the people who made the first one are deceased 20180903 06:52:49<+wesdiscordbot> I do not 20180903 07:04:05<+wesdiscordbot> Lasers / mirrors wuold be great help when it comes to speeding up space ships. 20180903 07:04:45<+wesdiscordbot> How so? 20180903 07:05:03<+wesdiscordbot> Ion thrusters would be useful, but I don't really follow how lasers would help with speed. 20180903 07:07:00<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_Starshot or similar, I assume 20180903 07:08:00<+wesdiscordbot> If you shoot laster at space ship it would start gainging speed. Reflecting sunlight have exacly the same effect. It works simillarly to wind and sail. But reflected light must be heavly concentradetd to have simmilar effect. 20180903 07:08:28<+wesdiscordbot> in theory 20180903 07:08:39<+wesdiscordbot> but light's momentum is very miniscule 20180903 07:09:05<+wesdiscordbot> that's why you need a really big laser 20180903 07:09:07<+wesdiscordbot> πŸ˜› 20180903 07:09:08<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20180903 07:09:50<+wesdiscordbot> it's complicated, since a laser does indeed have much more focused energy than sunlight radiation 20180903 07:10:08<+wesdiscordbot> so you would need much, much less total energy to drive a ship using light 20180903 07:10:18<+wesdiscordbot> but you're still talking on the order of magnitude of a small star probably 20180903 07:10:34<+wesdiscordbot> good luck generating that much power on your own πŸ˜‚ 20180903 07:11:12<+wesdiscordbot> so we build a dyson sphere first then 20180903 07:11:28<+wesdiscordbot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TteoCHmXTc 20180903 07:11:45<+wesdiscordbot> Topic starts at about 9 minutes. 20180903 07:13:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 07:14:29<+wesdiscordbot> at that point 20180903 07:14:50<+wesdiscordbot> so I guess there's a couple problems 20180903 07:14:58-!- celmin|sleep [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20180903 07:15:18<+wesdiscordbot> light diffraction at long distances is a big issue, so you'll get exponentially less thrust unless you have a way to recollimate the laser beams 20180903 07:15:45<+wesdiscordbot> you need an insane amount of power to actually drive anything (is it even worth it to put that much power into sending a spaceship there?) 20180903 07:16:11<+wesdiscordbot> and if you sail into any kind of gas cloud, then I guess it's probably over for the ship 20180903 07:21:24< zookeeper> is it worth it to put even a fraction of that much power into sending a spaceship there? 20180903 07:22:57<+wesdiscordbot> dunno 20180903 07:23:26<+wesdiscordbot> should be on the order of TW which is mega absurd to me 20180903 07:23:48<+wesdiscordbot> TW at least 20180903 07:24:57<+wesdiscordbot> since for microscopic particle trapping people already use on the order of kW 20180903 07:25:28<+wesdiscordbot> so factor in mass of spaceship and speed it needs to go at and it's pretty crazy 20180903 07:26:35<+wesdiscordbot> AFAIK, the idea of using lasers is with an extremely small spaceship, too small to have a nuclear reactor or some other power source of its own. 20180903 07:26:50<+wesdiscordbot> Since making it small also allows it to be lightweight and need less energy. 20180903 07:27:12<+wesdiscordbot> If it's big enough, then ion thrusters are much more efficient. 20180903 07:29:55<+wesdiscordbot> well it's that theoretically you can get something to travel close to light speed 20180903 07:30:10<+wesdiscordbot> given enough energy 20180903 07:30:51<+wesdiscordbot> I never understand how speed can be limited to lightspeed only >.< 20180903 07:31:32-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 07:32:11<+wesdiscordbot> fundamental limit like Plancks constant 20180903 07:32:32<+wesdiscordbot> or absolute zero 20180903 07:33:09<+wesdiscordbot> I have trobule with imagining that speed cna be limited. I can imagine absolute 0 but cannot imagine ablosulte max 20180903 07:33:39<+wesdiscordbot> I guess it has something to do with very fundamental physics, we just take it as truth in class πŸ˜‚ 20180903 07:33:56<+wesdiscordbot> there is actually an absolute hot too 20180903 07:34:35<+wesdiscordbot> it's something theoretical and some kind of obscenely high temperature, but has been postulated 20180903 07:34:57<+wesdiscordbot> Universe is so limiting. 20180903 07:35:01<+wesdiscordbot> In short, it follows from the formula that gives how much energy is needed to reach any given target speed. 20180903 07:35:21<+wesdiscordbot> As the target speed approaches the speed of light, the required energy approaches infinity, without limit. 20180903 07:35:29<+wesdiscordbot> yes but why 20180903 07:35:38<+wesdiscordbot> To exceed the speed of light you'd need more than infinite energy. 20180903 07:35:45<+wesdiscordbot> If i have infinite energy could i surpass lightspeed? 20180903 07:36:04<+wesdiscordbot> infinite isn't a measurable quantity 20180903 07:36:08<+wesdiscordbot> But how anything could be more than infinite? 20180903 07:36:14<+wesdiscordbot> it's a limit 20180903 07:36:20<+wesdiscordbot> or the result of one 20180903 07:37:00<+wesdiscordbot> So if i had infinite could i surpass it? 20180903 07:37:05<+wesdiscordbot> one infinity can be larger than another infinity but regardless none of them are quantities 20180903 07:37:25<+wesdiscordbot> you cannot possess infinity of anything basically 20180903 07:38:33-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 07:39:07<+wesdiscordbot> This is just theory. But still i think that with infinite energy limit of lightspeed could be broken. >.< 20180903 07:39:41<+wesdiscordbot> If you insert infinity into the formula that produces the final speed, you divide by zero. 20180903 07:40:04<+wesdiscordbot> Eh... Reality is so horrible. 20180903 07:40:21<+wesdiscordbot> you probably want to study some physics if you think that :p 20180903 07:40:44<+wesdiscordbot> maybe in some other universe, but not according to what we know right now 20180903 07:41:36-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180903 07:44:23<+wesdiscordbot> I hope this (and whole phisics with it) will change. Nowdays phisic is too limiting for me. I alway want more and more... 20180903 08:09:04<+wesdiscordbot> The speed of light isn't really some special property only light has anyway. 20180903 08:09:11<+wesdiscordbot> Any massless particle will move at that speed 20180903 08:09:18<+wesdiscordbot> It's really the speed of causality 20180903 08:10:36<+wesdiscordbot> It's the maximum speed at which any two points of the universe can affect one another 20180903 08:11:40<+wesdiscordbot> According to the theory of relativity, not only particles but also information can't travel faster than the speed of light. 20180903 08:11:51<+wesdiscordbot> Indeed 20180903 08:12:03<+wesdiscordbot> However, unlike in the particle case, I haven't seen the reason behind that (and likely wouldn't understand it anyway). 20180903 08:17:46<+wesdiscordbot> Well, information is carried by some particle, it's not something totally different 20180903 08:17:58<+wesdiscordbot> is entanglement limited to light speed? 20180903 08:18:37<+wesdiscordbot> That's the weird thing, I don't think so? 20180903 08:18:44<+wesdiscordbot> No, it's not. 20180903 08:18:44<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement 20180903 08:18:55<+wesdiscordbot> no, but that's a good question 20180903 08:18:57<+wesdiscordbot> "The paradox is that a measurement made on either of the particles apparently collapses the state of the entire entangled systemβ€”and does so instantaneously, before any information about the measurement result could have been communicated to the other particle (assuming that information cannot travel faster than light) and hence assured the "proper" outcome of the measurement of the other part of the entangled pair." 20180903 08:19:07<+wesdiscordbot> like a good problem to sort out 20180903 08:19:52<+wesdiscordbot> It would be interesting if quantum physics eventually turned out to give us means for faster-than-light communication. 20180903 08:22:23<+wesdiscordbot> Probably it will. 20180903 08:23:13<+wesdiscordbot> @jyrkive ftr, here's a good video as to why the speed of causality must be finite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msVuCEs8Ydo 20180903 08:23:27<+wesdiscordbot> I doubt that, at least on a macroscopic scale 20180903 08:23:45<+wesdiscordbot> at the moment, apparently it can't because forcing an entangled particle to a certain state breaks the entanglement. 20180903 08:24:01<+wesdiscordbot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tafGL02EUOA 20180903 08:24:06<+wesdiscordbot> so you can't actually send information 20180903 08:24:10<+wesdiscordbot> (this is such a good channel) 20180903 08:24:20<+wesdiscordbot> just read what the particular particle and its counterpart(s) are 20180903 08:25:44<+wesdiscordbot> Soo... Cannto you have multipe particles and jus break the entangelment like in morse code? 20180903 08:26:38<+wesdiscordbot> entanglement really sounds less like any information is transferred, and more like their states are synchronized somehow. 20180903 08:27:09<+wesdiscordbot> the problem with entanglement is that to take advantage of the information you'd need to know beforehand what happened 20180903 08:27:16<+wesdiscordbot> so information has actually traveled 20180903 08:27:25<+wesdiscordbot> at normal speed 20180903 08:28:14<+wesdiscordbot> it is like, I give two people two boxes, one with a left shoe the other with a right shoe, then they travel at the opposite sides of the universe 20180903 08:28:20<+wesdiscordbot> and open the box 20180903 08:28:53<+wesdiscordbot> They'll instantly know what is in the other box which is so far away, but it' s not that information traveled faster than light 20180903 08:29:29<+wesdiscordbot> it's just that they knew at the beginning the setup of the 'experiment' 20180903 08:30:11<+wesdiscordbot> "spooky action at a distance" sounds like a misleading way to describe it, tbh 20180903 08:31:55-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@anguilla.debian.or.at] has quit [Changing host] 20180903 08:31:55-!- Rhonda [~rhonda@wesnoth/developer/rhonda] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 08:34:25<+wesdiscordbot> the point is, if you could decide whether you had a right or left shoe, then you could communicate 20180903 08:34:47<+wesdiscordbot> but it's not up to you, same is for particle observations. So there is no way to use it to communicate 20180903 08:34:55<+wesdiscordbot> @Vultraz I watched the first video you linked, and it fails to explain why the speed of information is limited to c. It just says so. 20180903 08:35:53<+wesdiscordbot> Are you asking why C is specifically C and not, say, C + 1? πŸ€” 20180903 08:36:06<+wesdiscordbot> No, I'm not. 20180903 08:36:25<+wesdiscordbot> I undertsnad that matter is limited to c, but not why information is. 20180903 08:36:37<+wesdiscordbot> ahhh.... 20180903 08:36:44<+wesdiscordbot> there's no information propagation without particles 20180903 08:36:57<+wesdiscordbot> information is encoded in something 20180903 08:37:01<+wesdiscordbot> I think that is true, yes. 20180903 08:38:52<+wesdiscordbot> Well, not exactly, I'd say, since I don't think that's a strict definition of "information" πŸ€” 20180903 08:41:07<+wesdiscordbot> Given there are things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_information_paradox , I think there's a pretty strict definition somewhere. 20180903 08:41:54<+wesdiscordbot> indeed 20180903 08:44:54<+wesdiscordbot> there probably refers to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory 20180903 08:45:33<+wesdiscordbot> information can be defined based on the states a particular system can have 20180903 08:45:54<+wesdiscordbot> hmmm... 20180903 08:46:36<+wesdiscordbot> but I'd say the intuitive meaning of information is enough for what we are discussing 20180903 08:46:51<+wesdiscordbot> let's just say that to say something we need some sort of Β΄ code' 20180903 08:47:28<+wesdiscordbot> instead of letters/sounds it could be the states of a quantum system 20180903 08:47:38<+wesdiscordbot> but still you need a system to carry it 20180903 08:48:32<+wesdiscordbot> tbh, I don't know enough about this to think of any explanation outside of saying that it seems that if information defines the state of a system, then wouldn't by definition any action one takes on the other be limited by C. 20180903 08:49:19<+wesdiscordbot> Certainly, jyrki is correct that exchange of information is limited by C 20180903 08:49:35<+wesdiscordbot> That's why we have the cosmic event horizon. 20180903 08:49:37<+wesdiscordbot> not by definition, by the limit on particles' speed 20180903 08:49:43<+wesdiscordbot> And an "observable universe" 20180903 08:50:01<+wesdiscordbot> We're not only discussing particles, tho. 20180903 08:50:20<+wesdiscordbot> Gravitational waves are not particles, for example 20180903 08:50:53<+wesdiscordbot> sure, although it's been theorized that also gravity has a particle vector 20180903 08:51:29<+wesdiscordbot> the 'graviton' 20180903 08:51:46<+wesdiscordbot> We have yet to observe it, though 20180903 08:52:18<+wesdiscordbot> As I understand it, gravity is simply the curvature of spacetime by mass. I don't really understand why a particle is needed. 20180903 08:52:34<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, there's a hole in the standard model, but maybe that's simply The Way Things Are 20180903 08:52:40<+wesdiscordbot> well, that's the attempt to reconcile QM and General relativity 20180903 08:53:19<+wesdiscordbot> "Apart from gravity, the three other known forces of nature are thought to be mediated by elementary particles: electromagnetism by the photon, the strong interaction by gluons, and the weak interaction by the W and Z bosons. All three of these forces appear to be accurately described by the standard model of particle physics. A hypothesis is that gravitational interactions are mediated by an as yet undiscovered elementary 20180903 08:53:19<+wesdiscordbot> particle, dubbed the graviton." 20180903 08:53:20<+wesdiscordbot> anyway, also gravity propagates at C speed 20180903 08:53:31<+wesdiscordbot> Sounds at least reasonable to me. 20180903 08:54:00<+wesdiscordbot> it does, but it is very hard to come up with a consistent theory, due to bad math problems 20180903 08:54:14<+wesdiscordbot> Indeed, when put that way it sounds reasonable. But it doesn't make sense if you consider Einstein's description of gravity (IMO) 20180903 08:54:17<+wesdiscordbot> don't know much about it, but it's all string theories are about 20180903 08:55:06<+wesdiscordbot> Einstein describes large scale behavior, this theory is supposed to explain it's small scale nature 20180903 08:55:18-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 08:55:28<+wesdiscordbot> but at small scales gravity is annoyingly weak 20180903 08:55:30<+wesdiscordbot> But what is that nature, exactly. 20180903 08:55:44<+wesdiscordbot> so experiments are out of questions, for the moment 20180903 08:55:54<+wesdiscordbot> well, we don't know 20180903 08:55:58<+wesdiscordbot> there are theories 20180903 08:56:06<+wesdiscordbot> that's the biggest problem of physics 20180903 08:56:15<+wesdiscordbot> together with dark matter, perhaps 20180903 08:56:33<+wesdiscordbot> We consider gravity a "pull down", but that's only because space is curved in a way that puts forward propagation pointing "down". 20180903 08:56:50<+wesdiscordbot> When it comes to dark matter, it has even been proposed that it doesn't actually exist at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics 20180903 08:57:22<+wesdiscordbot> yes, but MOND has all sort of problems of its own 20180903 08:57:25<+wesdiscordbot> We also say anything with mass has a gravitational pull, which makes sense, if we consider mass bends spacetime. Yet the fundamental particles of the standard model are massless. 20180903 08:57:41<+wesdiscordbot> How could a graviton both be massless and bend spacetime 20180903 08:57:44<+wesdiscordbot> the community is much more inclined in believing Dark Matter rather than MOND 20180903 08:58:00<+wesdiscordbot> it's energy that bends spacetime 20180903 08:58:07<+wesdiscordbot> not just mass 20180903 08:58:21<+wesdiscordbot> they're kinda the same thing, aren't they. 20180903 08:58:44<+wesdiscordbot> and anyway, graviton would be the carrier, but the massive particles would generate the attraction 20180903 08:58:55<+wesdiscordbot> like photon is chargeless, but carries EM force 20180903 08:59:32<+wesdiscordbot> mass is a form of energy, according to Albert 20180903 08:59:40<+wesdiscordbot> indeed. 20180903 09:00:52<+wesdiscordbot> and I thought it not that photons carry the EM force, but that photons are excitations in the EM field. 20180903 09:02:45<+wesdiscordbot> I guess you can see it both way 20180903 09:03:38<+wesdiscordbot> (are you a physicist, by chance? You seem knowledgeable on these things πŸ€” ) 20180903 09:05:19<+wesdiscordbot> I studied physics yes, and was in astro for a while, so I'm not precisely an expert of QM 20180903 09:06:57<+wesdiscordbot> Ah. My expertise is limited to watching all the PBS Spacetime videos 😬 20180903 09:07:02<+wesdiscordbot> (they're really good tho) 20180903 09:07:34<+wesdiscordbot> (really give some intuitions of the complex topics) 20180903 09:16:54-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20180903 10:06:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 11:14:58-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 11:31:31<+wesdiscordbot> Does someone here have a reddit account, so s/he can tell that person on reddit that the add-on is called Wesband (and is not ported I think?) 20180903 11:35:23<+wesdiscordbot> i do,but i'd rather not right now 20180903 11:40:23-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 11:40:29-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 11:42:08<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks, I responded to the thread. 20180903 12:29:01-!- sevu [~sevu@141.57.61.193] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 12:34:34-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 12:34:40-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 13:01:57-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 13:03:14-!- sevu [~sevu@141.57.61.193] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 13:20:19-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 13:28:06-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 13:28:46-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 13:29:08<+wesdiscordbot> I would have, but I was asleep when you asked that. 20180903 13:36:27< celticminstrel> BTW, infinite energy doesn't let you surpass light speed. It only lets you reach light speed. @Hejnewar 20180903 13:38:12<+wesdiscordbot> Well, once you are at that point, you'd need only very little additional energy to exceed it according to the equations. 20180903 13:39:33<+wesdiscordbot> That's one reason behind the hypothesis of tachyons - if a particle is moving faster-than-light as soon as it's formed, then slowing it down to the speed of light would also require infinite energy. So, a tachyon would forever move at FTL speeds. 20180903 13:40:35<+wesdiscordbot> I am convinced the limit of light is a lie 20180903 13:40:59<+wesdiscordbot> Physics teachers hate me 20180903 13:41:45< celticminstrel> Yeah, but tachyons have imaginary mass. 20180903 13:42:10< celticminstrel> Where imaginary means it's a multiple of the square root of -1. 20180903 13:42:48< celticminstrel> And a tachyon would likewise need infinite energy to reduce their speed to equal the speed of light. 20180903 13:43:06< celticminstrel> Oh wait, you said that part. 20180903 13:43:09< celticminstrel> <_< 20180903 13:43:39<+wesdiscordbot> Nice 20180903 13:43:44< celticminstrel> Hm? 20180903 13:44:46< celticminstrel> FTR, imaginary/complex mass is not something that has ever been observed or even theorized. 20180903 13:53:27-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 14:32:58-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180903 14:35:18<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> mukyuu 20180903 14:35:45<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> My first single player Skirmish battle (Den of Oni) turns out to be a _Rebel mirror_XD 20180903 14:48:00<+wesdiscordbot> You can't just magically declare C is somehow invalid without any proof >_< 20180903 14:52:38-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 15:07:17< celticminstrel> C? 20180903 15:09:40< celticminstrel> What the heck are you talking about @Vultraz 20180903 15:27:16<+wesdiscordbot> heey, i had an idea for an post-fall era orc faction. It basically goes as this: an Taskforce of mercenary engineers that mainly fights via building machines, for the highest bidder that can pay em. The faction would have reversed roles, crafty Goblins being the overseers bossing the dumb muscle Orc engineers about, the orcs themselves preferring short ranged combat over melee, also the Trolls being hold in high esteem as 20180903 15:27:16<+wesdiscordbot> they function as guides, using their connection to stone they are essential for finding their way in the subterranean realm. Reason for their absence is that they are descendants of the last orcs that desperately fled into deep underground, using tunneling machines they come to surface to fight when hired. 20180903 15:31:47< celticminstrel> I just want to say that there's no reason to keep the racial relations in a post-fall faction. 20180903 15:31:55< celticminstrel> That is, there's no reason orcs would continue working with trolls. 20180903 15:32:07< celticminstrel> Orcs might well end up working with some other race instead. 20180903 15:32:25< celticminstrel> Not to say that they can't continue working with trolls, but it might be more interesting if they didn't. 20180903 15:33:08 * celticminstrel also pokes @Vultraz again 20180903 15:33:22<+wesdiscordbot> what? 20180903 15:33:51<+wesdiscordbot> what is it 20180903 15:34:36< celticminstrel> What the heck were you talking about earlier 20180903 15:34:51<+wesdiscordbot> I....said? 20180903 15:35:22<+wesdiscordbot> the guy who randomly said "I am convinced the limit of light is a lie" 20180903 15:35:51< celticminstrel> Ahhh. I got extremely confused by the fact that you capitalized C. 20180903 15:35:57< celticminstrel> Because the speed of light is lower-case c. 20180903 15:36:08<+wesdiscordbot> really? 20180903 15:36:10<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180903 15:36:12<+wesdiscordbot> I did not realize this 20180903 15:36:12< celticminstrel> Mathematical variables and constants are case-sensitive. 20180903 15:36:29<+wesdiscordbot> C = coulomb 20180903 15:36:34< celticminstrel> In fact they're not just case-sensitive, they're also typeface-sensitive. 20180903 15:36:37<+wesdiscordbot> well now I know 😬 20180903 15:36:39<+wesdiscordbot> yup 20180903 15:36:45<+wesdiscordbot> thanks 20180903 15:36:54<+wesdiscordbot> it's actually quit annoying 20180903 15:36:57<+wesdiscordbot> quite 20180903 15:37:23<+wesdiscordbot> the same variable also means different things in different contexts 20180903 15:37:39<+wesdiscordbot> V = volume, voltage, normalized frequency 20180903 15:37:52< celticminstrel> Upper-case C as a variable usually means capacitance apparently. 20180903 15:37:58<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180903 15:38:15< celticminstrel> And upper-case C in an outline style means complex numbers. 20180903 15:38:26<+wesdiscordbot> yup yup 20180903 15:38:57< celticminstrel> I think maybe lowercase c in a script style means the cardinality of the real numbers... 20180903 15:39:13<+wesdiscordbot> I just wanted to say you can't just declare the speed of causality somehow invalid without something more than conviction 20180903 15:39:23< celticminstrel> Though that's often seen just in a normal typeface too. 20180903 15:39:31<+wesdiscordbot> right 20180903 15:39:39<+wesdiscordbot> there might be something to make it false 20180903 15:39:46<+wesdiscordbot> but there must be a basis for that declaration 20180903 15:39:52<+wesdiscordbot> indeed 20180903 15:40:00< celticminstrel> Indeed. 20180903 15:40:12<+wesdiscordbot> although sometimes in science, you do go by gut instinct 20180903 15:40:14<+wesdiscordbot> at the very least you'd need to cite some theory. 20180903 15:40:24< celticminstrel> Hypothesis 20180903 15:40:29< celticminstrel> Not theory 20180903 15:40:35< celticminstrel> If it's a theory that means it's poven. 20180903 15:40:46<+wesdiscordbot> I'm using "theory" in the colloquial sence 20180903 15:40:50< celticminstrel> Mehh. 20180903 15:41:30<+wesdiscordbot> but I suppose I should conform to the scientific meaning since we're talking science 20180903 15:41:44<+wesdiscordbot> I'm sure you also realize this but c is also the speed of light in vacuum 20180903 15:41:51<+wesdiscordbot> in media, things can travel faster than light 20180903 15:42:15<+wesdiscordbot> light always moves at c, it just takes a longer path through different materials. 20180903 15:42:29<+wesdiscordbot> it takes a longer optical path 20180903 15:42:33<+wesdiscordbot> so its actual velocity is slower 20180903 15:42:49<+wesdiscordbot> how does that figure 20180903 15:42:56<+wesdiscordbot> well I said something bad 20180903 15:43:26<+wesdiscordbot> basically what happens is light hits matter, it get absorbed and reemitted 20180903 15:43:58<+wesdiscordbot> so there's some slow down time in there that makes it travel slower 20180903 15:44:31<+wesdiscordbot> speed of light is c/n 20180903 15:44:35<+wesdiscordbot> n being the index of refraction 20180903 15:44:48<+wesdiscordbot> strictly speaking if you have a magnetic material, that will affect it too 20180903 15:45:09<+wesdiscordbot> certainly the photons are always traveling at c, tho, no? 20180903 15:45:18<+wesdiscordbot> nope 20180903 15:45:31<+wesdiscordbot> also idk what a photon really is 20180903 15:45:39<+wesdiscordbot> well that really makes no sense 20180903 15:45:48<+wesdiscordbot> massless particles have to travel at c 20180903 15:46:07<+wesdiscordbot> well photons aren't really particles 20180903 15:46:24<+wesdiscordbot> well they are 20180903 15:46:25<+wesdiscordbot> yes, wave/particle duality 20180903 15:46:26<+wesdiscordbot> I know 20180903 15:46:35<+wesdiscordbot> well 20180903 15:46:40<+wesdiscordbot> that's how you explain them 20180903 15:47:06<+wesdiscordbot> anyway 20180903 15:47:10<+wesdiscordbot> photons don't have any rest mass 20180903 15:47:12<+wesdiscordbot> they have mass when they move 20180903 15:47:26<+wesdiscordbot> that's why light has momentum 20180903 15:47:28<+wesdiscordbot> but they always move... 20180903 15:47:43<+wesdiscordbot> you can't "freeze" light unless you match its speed. 20180903 15:48:27<+wesdiscordbot> not sure what you're getting at O: 20180903 15:48:52<+wesdiscordbot> Are you perhaps referring to how massless components magically make up matter with mass? 20180903 15:49:04<+wesdiscordbot> no? 20180903 15:49:09<+wesdiscordbot> photons have mass when they move 20180903 15:49:14<+wesdiscordbot> is what I'm saying 20180903 15:49:22<+wesdiscordbot> matter hass mass 20180903 15:49:30<+wesdiscordbot> I have yet to hear this anywhere else 20180903 15:49:30<+wesdiscordbot> protons and electrons both have actual, measurable mass 20180903 15:49:38<+wesdiscordbot> about massful protons 20180903 15:49:46<+wesdiscordbot> they just have no rest mass 20180903 15:50:29<+wesdiscordbot> again, I have yet to hear that from anyone else. So I'll need some sources, pls. 20180903 15:50:35<+wesdiscordbot> perhaps I've misunderstood something 20180903 15:50:48<+wesdiscordbot> Note that for reasons above, such a rest frame does not exist for single photons, or rays of light moving in one direction. When two or more photons move in different directions, however, a center of mass frame (or "rest frame" if the system is bound) exists. Thus, the mass of a system of several photons moving in different directions is positive, which means that an invariant mass exists for this system even though it does not 20180903 15:50:49<+wesdiscordbot> exist for each photon. 20180903 15:50:51<+wesdiscordbot> maybe wikipedia can help you 20180903 15:51:28<+wesdiscordbot> Well that implies a single photon indeed has no mass 20180903 15:51:33<+wesdiscordbot> Says, actually 20180903 15:51:35<+wesdiscordbot> it says so 20180903 15:51:50<+wesdiscordbot> I mean 20180903 15:52:02<+wesdiscordbot> as soon as you put a photon into a system it has mass though... 20180903 15:52:11<+wesdiscordbot> what is going on here 20180903 15:52:23<+wesdiscordbot> some crazy physics 20180903 15:52:25<+wesdiscordbot> that's also true for quarks and electrons 20180903 15:52:25<+wesdiscordbot> science, apparently 20180903 15:52:39<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know about quarks 20180903 15:53:37<+wesdiscordbot> Is it not the Higgs field containing these massless particles that gives this "system" the mass you describe 20180903 15:53:44<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know 20180903 15:54:21<+wesdiscordbot> I'm in engineering, we don't do the super physics theory stuff 20180903 15:54:23<+wesdiscordbot> :p 20180903 15:54:47<+wesdiscordbot> since, well, technically we need to worry more about practical aspects of things 20180903 15:54:52<+wesdiscordbot> lemme ty to find the vid im thinking of 20180903 15:57:28<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSKzgpt4HBU 20180903 15:58:15<+wesdiscordbot> :run: 20180903 15:58:21-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 15:58:50<+wesdiscordbot> and this one (the followup) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguAN1_JouQ 20180903 15:59:52<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi so I think we might be actually referring to the same thing? 20180903 16:00:36<+wesdiscordbot> 🀷 20180903 16:22:50<+wesdiscordbot> #wesnothscience 20180903 16:23:22<+wesdiscordbot> we have so many people here who know many things about different subjects :p 20180903 16:26:02<+wesdiscordbot> I know stuff about wesnoth. 😁 20180903 16:32:23<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/486211866100498452/1520460233746.png 20180903 16:32:30<+wesdiscordbot> Opps sorry wrong discord 20180903 16:37:33-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180903 16:42:13<+wesdiscordbot> b_b 20180903 16:56:17-!- Soo_Slow [~Soo_Slow@95.167.31.232] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 17:01:43-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 17:07:12-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 17:07:18-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 17:21:39< celticminstrel> "in media, things can travel faster than light" - Yes and this gives rise to a fascinating phenomon - Cherenkov radiation, the light equivalent of a sonic boom. Yes the individual photons are technically still travelling at c, but each photon barely makes any distance before being absorbed by an atom, which then re-emits it, so the actual propagation of the light wave is slower than c. Also matching light speed doesn't freeze a photon. 20180903 17:22:57<+wesdiscordbot> yo 20180903 17:23:12< celticminstrel> "can't freeze light unless you match its speed" - I'm pretty sure that even if you were travelling at light speed you'd observe any photons around to be also travelling at light speed. 20180903 17:23:36<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, that's correct. 20180903 17:23:49< celticminstrel> So yeah, what @Vultraz said there is incorrect. 20180903 17:24:00< celticminstrel> You can't freeze light ever. 20180903 17:30:57<+wesdiscordbot> hmm, "Frozen Light" would make an cool artifact name than. 20180903 17:35:59< celticminstrel> Heh, true... 20180903 17:40:49<+wesdiscordbot> celmin is now both a physicist and a historian πŸ˜„ 20180903 17:44:25<+wesdiscordbot> an historian ? but of what ? 20180903 17:51:01< celticminstrel> Haha. 20180903 17:51:31-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 17:51:41< celticminstrel> If you're going that far, there's plenty of other titles you could add too, but really, none of them quite fit. 20180903 17:51:51< celticminstrel> In the sense of being a profession or whatever. 20180903 17:52:20< celticminstrel> eg linguist, musician 20180903 18:07:48-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180903 18:08:04-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 18:13:13-!- Soo_Slow [~Soo_Slow@95.167.31.232] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 18:13:57<+wesdiscordbot> How about being a celtic ministrel? 20180903 18:36:34< celticminstrel> Uh. Sure I guess? 20180903 18:36:52< celticminstrel> BTW there's only one I in minstrel 20180903 18:38:39<+wesdiscordbot> heh 20180903 18:38:46<+wesdiscordbot> what do you call a small minstrel πŸ˜„ 20180903 18:38:55<+wesdiscordbot> mini minstrel! 20180903 18:44:38-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 18:44:44-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 18:52:08< celticminstrel> ministrel sounds like a cross between a minstrel and a minister so I kina don't like it. 20180903 18:52:14< celticminstrel> ^kinda 20180903 19:10:33-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Polsaker 20180903 19:14:49-!- Polsaker [PjaoE3Ix2n@donger/wielder/Polsaker] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 19:39:24-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20180903 19:55:05<+wesdiscordbot> Oops. 20180903 20:16:23-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 20:30:09-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 20:30:15-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 20:50:17-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 20:51:52-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 20:55:10<+wesdiscordbot> iiii 20180903 20:56:32<+wesdiscordbot> What... 20180903 20:57:54<+wesdiscordbot> He's celticminstrel not celticministrel. 20180903 20:58:06-!- Jordys [~Jordys@154.68.5.46] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 20:58:16-!- Jordys [~Jordys@154.68.5.46] has quit [Client Quit] 20180903 20:58:37<+wesdiscordbot> And yes, celticministrel, I believe in your elaboration of the difference between minstrel and ministrel. 20180903 21:14:21-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 21:21:10-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20180903 21:41:09-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 21:48:39-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20180903 22:26:49<+wesdiscordbot> Celmin: well, from the perspective of a photon traveling at c, other photons would be relatively still compared to it. Also, photons do not experience time from their perspective, so that’s another way in which they’re β€œfrozen” 20180903 22:27:19<+wesdiscordbot> A massive observer can indeed never freeze light because freezing light implies reaching c whichnthen freezes your ability to observe 20180903 22:27:30<+wesdiscordbot> at anything less than c light is never frozen 20180903 22:27:42<+wesdiscordbot> And a massive observer cannot ever reach c since they have mass 20180903 22:27:45<+wesdiscordbot> You See? 20180903 22:28:06<+wesdiscordbot> si 20180903 22:30:15< celticminstrel> ... 20180903 22:30:23 * celticminstrel smacks ResExsention. 20180903 22:30:59< celticminstrel> @Vultraz You are incorrect. From the perspective of a photon travelling at c, other photons would still be travelling at c. 20180903 22:31:22< celticminstrel> I think it's quite misleading to say that photons don't experience time. 20180903 22:31:29< celticminstrel> It might be technically true, but... 20180903 22:33:12<+wesdiscordbot> I’ve heard it put that way 20180903 22:33:22< celticminstrel> But a photon still has a beginning and an end. 20180903 22:33:37< celticminstrel> It starts at some point in time and space and ends up at some other point in time and space. 20180903 22:33:39<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. But time won’t pass from the perspective of the photon 20180903 22:33:45<+wesdiscordbot> Information can never evolve 20180903 22:34:03<+wesdiscordbot> Since the information is frozen from its perspective and traveling at the same speed as it 20180903 22:35:17< celticminstrel> "travelling at the same speed" is, again, not a very good way to describe it. 20180903 22:35:47< celticminstrel> Like I said, from the photon's perspective, any other photon is travelling at c too. 20180903 22:36:13< celticminstrel> But maybe they're all travelling at c away, so the photon can't ever gain any new information. 20180903 22:43:48-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 22:43:55-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 22:48:25-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20180903 22:52:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 23:34:18-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20180903 23:39:19-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180903 23:39:25-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180903 23:49:34<+wesdiscordbot> What’s with all this nerd talk. I’m just here for the βš”οΈ and the πŸ’₯ 20180903 23:49:47<+wesdiscordbot> Kidding, it’s actually been neat reading all this 20180903 23:51:08< celticminstrel> :P 20180903 23:51:27<+wesdiscordbot> Quick question. What real-world 'dialect' is closest to that of the Elves? From what I can tell, [sorry if I am incorrect], the Dwarves seem closest to a scottish or irish, the orcs seem to have a broken-english, and the Wesnothians seem welsh-like. 20180903 23:51:47< celticminstrel> No idea. 20180903 23:52:26< celticminstrel> I guess maybe one of the "purer" American dialects? Like Canadian or Californian. 20180903 23:52:36<+wesdiscordbot> Ah. 20180903 23:52:56< celticminstrel> I say an American one only because IIUC they're actually closer to the English spoken at the time of colonization. 20180903 23:53:06<+wesdiscordbot> Alright. 20180903 23:53:13< celticminstrel> An English dialect like RP would probably serve just fine too, though. 20180903 23:53:27<+wesdiscordbot> Alright. 20180903 23:54:25< celticminstrel> This is just speculation FTR. I don't know of any specific intent or any strong reasons why it would be a given dialect. 20180903 23:54:41<+wesdiscordbot> I see. 20180903 23:56:08< celticminstrel> FTR, I'm pretty sure the dwarves are more Scottish than Irish (though Scottish is itself Irish-derived in a way). 20180903 23:56:16<+wesdiscordbot> Ah. 20180903 23:56:25<+wesdiscordbot> Imo, I think it would be interesting to have a campaign or two delve into the structure of the society of the Elves/Dwarves. We got two campagins on the Dwarves [SoF, THoT] and three on Elves [AOI, LoW, UtBS], and a few ones which co-feature Dwarves/Elves [HttT, NR], but none that too much go into the structure of the societies or how they are governed, really. It would be interesting to see if they're all united or if they 20180903 23:56:26<+wesdiscordbot> function as separate, independent tribes or clans. 20180903 23:56:58< celticminstrel> I don't get any impression of a single, united elven government. 20180903 23:57:27< celticminstrel> Though I think those of the two swathes of forest in the north region of Wesnoth, at least, are united? 20180903 23:57:45< celticminstrel> The first being where Konrad grows up and the second being where the council is held later in the campaign. 20180903 23:58:06< celticminstrel> But the southern elves in TSG, on the other hand, seem a lot less friendly towards humans. 20180903 23:58:21<+wesdiscordbot> The Lintanir and Athen [might be Aethen] forests? 20180903 23:58:34< celticminstrel> I guess that first forest isn't really north, it's more like west. 20180903 23:58:50<+wesdiscordbot> It's more south-westy. 20180903 23:58:58< celticminstrel> I'm not sure of the names, but I think Lintanir is indeed one of the ones in HTTT? But Aethen I thought was the one in TSG. --- Log closed Tue Sep 04 00:00:09 2018