--- Log opened Tue Sep 04 00:00:09 2018 --- Day changed Tue Sep 04 2018 20180904 00:00:09<+wesdiscordbot> Aethen is the one Konrad was raised in, with Galdrad and Chantal. Even without the campaign guide, we can tell this because the next scenario takes place in Blackwater Port. 20180904 00:00:43< celticminstrel> Really? Then what's the far south one in TSG? 20180904 00:01:37<+wesdiscordbot> That's the south part of Aethenwood. 20180904 00:02:41< celticminstrel> Hmmm. 20180904 00:02:45< celticminstrel> Well okay then? 20180904 00:02:52<+wesdiscordbot> The Aethenwood has two parts, both I believe to be called 'Aethenwood', one part south of the river Aethen, and one part north. 20180904 00:02:53<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/486325231716270080/Screenshot_2018-09-03_at_18.02.02.png 20180904 00:03:26<+wesdiscordbot> [Yes....I know the path is disconnected from Aldril to Blackwater, but that's because the maps don't 100% line up] 20180904 00:03:47< celticminstrel> Path? 20180904 00:03:55<+wesdiscordbot> Road, I mean. 20180904 00:04:01<+wesdiscordbot> The dotty paths. 20180904 00:04:10< celticminstrel> Oh in the image that I didn't look at, right. 20180904 00:05:15<+wesdiscordbot> The maps do mainly line up, but there's some parts like the road where they don't match up 100%. 20180904 00:05:27< celticminstrel> Was Blackwater Port involved in HTTT? 20180904 00:05:35<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, I believe so. 20180904 00:05:37< celticminstrel> I don't remember anymore. 20180904 00:05:48< celticminstrel> But I guess it could be where he set off before getting stranded on the Isle of the Damned? 20180904 00:05:51<+wesdiscordbot> Then the next scenarios were Isle of Anduin and Bay of Pearls. 20180904 00:06:00<+wesdiscordbot> That's after Bay of Pearls. 20180904 00:06:10< celticminstrel> Was that really Anduin? It sounds extremely unlikely. 20180904 00:06:19<+wesdiscordbot> It was, I believe so. 20180904 00:06:19<+wesdiscordbot> Not Hamel is correct. 20180904 00:06:31< celticminstrel> I thought Anduin was where the mage school was. 20180904 00:06:35<+wesdiscordbot> It is. 20180904 00:06:49< celticminstrel> But Konrad was stranded there and I don't remember a mage school? 20180904 00:06:56<+wesdiscordbot> He wasn't stranded there. 20180904 00:07:02<+wesdiscordbot> They had to free it, where you get the loyal mage Elrien. 20180904 00:07:03< celticminstrel> Right, that's what I thought. 20180904 00:07:06< celticminstrel> Hmm. 20180904 00:07:08<+wesdiscordbot> It's in Isle of the Damned where he gets stranded. 20180904 00:07:11< celticminstrel> I don't remember that at all. 20180904 00:07:19< celticminstrel> Right, I knew that part. 20180904 00:07:27< celticminstrel> Well, whatever. 20180904 00:07:41<+wesdiscordbot> It's right after Blackwater, where you get Haldiel, the first loyal unit in the campaign. 20180904 00:08:59<+wesdiscordbot> I think the only cities never seen in canon are Dan 'Tonk, Aldril, Borstep, Farzi, and Soradoc, as the others are roughly seen across the other campaigns. 20180904 00:45:21-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180904 00:45:28-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 01:04:38<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: well, imagine 2 photons travelling parallel in a vacuum. From the perspective of each photon, the other is stationary. 20180904 01:06:49<+wesdiscordbot> any other massless particle travelling in the same direction is also stationary 20180904 01:07:20<+wesdiscordbot> If the two were traveling away from another, how would the other know about it? 20180904 01:08:13<+wesdiscordbot> The information would take infinite time to propagate. As fast as whatever signal one photon had sent to the other moved, the other photon would be running away just as fast. 20180904 01:09:06<+wesdiscordbot> Meaning even if, from the perspective of that photon, it could "see" the incoming information, that information would appear stationary due to maintaining constant distance 20180904 01:09:43<+wesdiscordbot> Obviously, it cannot "see" anything 20180904 01:10:39<+wesdiscordbot> But you get the analogy. 20180904 01:23:42< celticminstrel> No, I'm pretty sure each of those photons would see the other moving at c. 20180904 01:24:16< celticminstrel> I mean, you sort of have a point in that they can't get new information about the other photon's position. 20180904 01:24:28< celticminstrel> But I don't think that's the same as seeing the other photon as stationary. 20180904 01:25:12< celticminstrel> If it could "see" the incoming information though I'm pretty sure it would see that photon moving at c. 20180904 01:25:24< celticminstrel> That's the entire point of the relativisitic principle. 20180904 01:25:31< celticminstrel> No matter how fast you're moving, light always moves at c. 20180904 01:25:59< celticminstrel> I'm not 100% sure if that breaks down if you two are moving at c, but without an argument based in the math I'd assume it still applies. 20180904 01:27:18< mattsc> Interesting … 20180904 01:27:22< celticminstrel> Your argument is based on relative speeds, however, which doesn't really work here. 20180904 01:27:42< celticminstrel> Because the relativistiv formula for relative speeds incorporates the speed of light. 20180904 01:27:46< celticminstrel> ^relativistic 20180904 01:27:49< celticminstrel> Hmm mattsc? 20180904 01:28:02< mattsc> Interesting discussion … 20180904 01:28:05< mattsc> This reminds me that I should really get going on that book titled “Relativity” that’s been next to my bed for quite some time now. 20180904 01:28:34< mattsc> It was written in 1920 by somebody called Albert, or something, so I figure it should be easy reading these days. 20180904 01:29:00< celticminstrel> XD 20180904 01:29:51<+wesdiscordbot> but it can't "see" the info 20180904 01:29:58< celticminstrel> Does that book cover general relativity? I think I read it and don't recall it doing so. 20180904 01:30:10<+wesdiscordbot> they can't actually "see" anything 20180904 01:30:11< mattsc> It does. 20180904 01:30:15<+wesdiscordbot> we know they're all moving at c 20180904 01:30:25<+wesdiscordbot> but that's it 20180904 01:30:35< celticminstrel> Being unable to receive information is, I think, not the same as observing things to be stationary. 20180904 01:31:48< mattsc> https://www.amazon.ca/Relativity-Special-General-Albert-Einstein/dp/1478396237?th=1&psc=1&source=googleshopping&locale=en-CA&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_45fb6w4j9j_e 20180904 01:32:24< mattsc> It’s been a _long_ time since I have last done anything with/about relativity. 20180904 01:32:27< celticminstrel> Maybe it's just that it doesn't cover the math behind general relativity in great detail. 20180904 01:32:41< celticminstrel> Or maybe it's that the modern formulation of general relativity has evolved a fair bit. 20180904 01:32:53< mattsc> Well, other than the general relativistic effects of the stars moving around the Galactic centre. 20180904 01:33:00< mattsc> But I didn’t calculate those myself. 20180904 01:33:57< mattsc> I think the book is more about the concepts, it has few equations in it. Which is why I am interested in it. 20180904 01:34:22< mattsc> Not because of the lack of equations, equations are fine, but those “old guys” really had a way of explaining the principles. 20180904 01:35:19< celticminstrel> Yeah, okay. 20180904 01:38:28<+wesdiscordbot> Evening all 20180904 01:38:55<+wesdiscordbot> Just getting into Wesnoth after all these years and found this place as well. 20180904 01:39:21< celticminstrel> Hi. 20180904 01:40:10<+wesdiscordbot> well, I know at least that photons experience no time 20180904 01:40:11<+wesdiscordbot> that I know is true 20180904 01:40:18<+wesdiscordbot> maybe I'm fuzzy on the explanation 20180904 01:41:16< celticminstrel> If a photon experiences no time, then from its perspective, isn't it a beam? 20180904 01:41:32< celticminstrel> Connecting its point and time of emission to its point and time of absorption. 20180904 01:42:24< celticminstrel> You can't have movement without time, right? So if it experiences no time, then it would also experience no movement, right? 20180904 01:46:34< celticminstrel> Mind you, I'm not sure you can even have experience without time... 20180904 02:08:45<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: I think the thing is it experiences no time from its perspective 20180904 02:08:56<+wesdiscordbot> obviously we know it propagates 20180904 02:09:32<+wesdiscordbot> But no internal clock of the photon would ever "tick" 20180904 02:09:38<+wesdiscordbot> It cannot 20180904 02:13:39<+wesdiscordbot> watch that vid i linked last night 20180904 02:15:32<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: this one https://youtu.be/GguAN1_JouQ 20180904 02:22:29<+wesdiscordbot> celmin: basically, it's saying that the confinement of massless particles by the Higgs field and other forces to produce, say, atoms, is what gives the atom its mass in the first place, and what allows the internal interactions that allow the the evolution of a system (an atom here), aka, time. 20180904 02:24:03<+wesdiscordbot> a sole photon traveling at light speed is not confined in a system that gives it mass and therefor, allows it to experience time. 20180904 02:25:42<+wesdiscordbot> Therefor, a massless particle like a photon experiences no time in the sense that there is no confined system to experience internal evolution 20180904 02:25:47<+wesdiscordbot> if I understand it correctly 20180904 02:25:57<+wesdiscordbot> I could be off-base 😬 20180904 02:31:30< celticminstrel> ... 20180904 02:31:51< celticminstrel> It almost sounds like you said the Higgs field is how time exists. 20180904 02:33:34<+wesdiscordbot> We need an actual physicist up in here >_> 20180904 02:33:59<+wesdiscordbot> Someone call Neil deGrasse Tyson 20180904 02:34:35<+wesdiscordbot> really, watch the vid tho 20180904 02:34:47<+wesdiscordbot> it does a better job of explaining things 20180904 02:42:43< celticminstrel> Was that also PBS Spacetime? 20180904 02:45:33<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180904 04:13:34<+wesdiscordbot> Per the theory of relativity, speeds are always relative to a reference frame. 20180904 04:13:49<+wesdiscordbot> The speed of light is c relative to any reference frame. 20180904 04:14:37<+wesdiscordbot> A stationary external observer, something moving to the same direction at c, or even something moving to the opposite direction at c. 20180904 04:16:05< celticminstrel> Right, so even if you have two photons travelling a parallel path, if you take one as a reference frame, the other is still travelling at c. 20180904 04:16:28<+wesdiscordbot> A thought experiment about it would be a spaceship moving forward at 300 000 km/s. If it fires a laser beam forward, from its PoV the laser beam is moving at 300 000 km/s relative to the spaceship; however, from the PoV of an external observer the laser beam is still moving at 300 000 km/s, not 600 000 km/s. 20180904 04:21:47< celticminstrel> IOW from the spaceship's perspective, the beam is moving away, but from the external observer's perspective, the two are maintaining a constant distance...? 20180904 04:23:07<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. 20180904 04:23:37< celticminstrel> Ah, looking at the formula, doesn't inserting c as the velocity yield a division by zero... 20180904 04:24:57<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, you can't just insert it. You need to use limits. 20180904 04:24:58<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_a_function 20180904 04:25:03< celticminstrel> Right, okay. 20180904 04:25:50< celticminstrel> So I guess the limit... converges? Or would it go to infinity... 20180904 04:27:36<+wesdiscordbot> something moving the same direction at the same speed as you is stationary relative to you, though 20180904 04:27:52<+wesdiscordbot> Speeds are not absolute. 20180904 04:28:04<+wesdiscordbot> They are always relative to a reference frame. 20180904 04:28:09<+wesdiscordbot> I know. c is agreed upon in all reference frames, though. 20180904 04:28:17< celticminstrel> @Vultraz - That's non-relativistic reasoning. 20180904 04:30:00<+wesdiscordbot> Ok, what if you consider 2 photons moving in a certain direction. One photon is n distance behind the other. They both move at c. The one behind will never overtake the other, correct? 20180904 04:30:10<+wesdiscordbot> That at least I think we can agree on 20180904 04:30:34< celticminstrel> No, I don't think we can agree on that? 20180904 04:30:54< celticminstrel> Of course, if you're watching from somewhere else, what you say is correct. 20180904 04:31:19< celticminstrel> If you're riding on the lead photon though... the one behind would have to catch up. 20180904 04:31:27<+wesdiscordbot> why? 20180904 04:31:37< celticminstrel> Because the speed of light is c in any reference frame. 20180904 04:31:44<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180904 04:31:46< celticminstrel> Even in a reference frame that is itself moving at c. 20180904 04:32:39< celticminstrel> No matter what, you can never, ever observe a photon travelling through the vaccuum at a speed other than c. 20180904 04:32:45<+wesdiscordbot> Things get quite complicated if the speed is exactly c. It's easier to think about the situation where it's, say, 99,9 % of c. 20180904 04:32:50< celticminstrel> Yeah. 20180904 04:32:55<+wesdiscordbot> but that implies you have an inertial reference frame. Relative to you, the photon is stationary, because you're both moving at c. You are not inertial. 20180904 04:33:05< celticminstrel> No, that's not how it works. 20180904 04:33:25< celticminstrel> How it works is: The speed of light is c relative to any reference frame. 20180904 04:33:30<+wesdiscordbot> If you're using the PoV of a particle that,s moving at 99,9 % of c, and there is a photon behind you, you'll observe the photon moving at c relative to you - not 0,01 % of c. 20180904 04:33:50<+wesdiscordbot> If you were in a highway going 60 behind a guy doing 60, you will never pass the front car. 20180904 04:33:58<+wesdiscordbot> on 20180904 04:34:06< celticminstrel> That's not a comparable situation. 20180904 04:34:14<+wesdiscordbot> The highway case works because it's not anywhere near the speed of light. 20180904 04:34:20< celticminstrel> Yeah, exactly. 20180904 04:34:47<+wesdiscordbot> In that case the equations of special relativity give practically the same result as the classic Newtonian equations. 20180904 04:34:52<+wesdiscordbot> It seems you're implying the second photon can pass the lead photon even though both are traveling at c. 20180904 04:34:59< celticminstrel> Yes. 20180904 04:35:15< celticminstrel> But only if you're observing from the reference frame of the lead photon. 20180904 04:35:33< celticminstrel> If you're in the reference frame of the second photon, the lead one would get ever further and further ahead. 20180904 04:35:38<+wesdiscordbot> Well, the exact speed of light is a special case. 20180904 04:35:46< celticminstrel> And from an external reference frame, they'd stay at a constant distance. 20180904 04:36:08<+wesdiscordbot> If your reference frame is moving that fast, time dilatation is so strong that time effectively disappears completely. 20180904 04:36:28<+wesdiscordbot> A photon cannot observe multiple instants of time. 20180904 04:36:33<+wesdiscordbot> it seems that we have become the wesnoth physics forum 20180904 04:36:35<+wesdiscordbot> I was saying earlier massless particles experience no time 20180904 04:36:46<+wesdiscordbot> Thus, from its PoV, there is no such thing as speeds of other particles. 20180904 04:36:52<+wesdiscordbot> Indeed 20180904 04:36:54<+wesdiscordbot> that is true 20180904 04:37:13<+wesdiscordbot> they cannot even observe those particles 20180904 04:37:30<+wesdiscordbot> That's why it's better to think about something that's moving at almost the speed of light because at that point things are still halfway normal. 20180904 04:38:08<+wesdiscordbot> ima watch this again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUuFg9Y9dY 20180904 04:42:13<+wesdiscordbot> hmmm... 20180904 04:43:32<+wesdiscordbot> well, ok, celmin is indeed correct that light always moves at c from any reference frame. That I'm not debating... 20180904 04:44:36<+wesdiscordbot> wonders how Vultraz would handle the concept of quantum states 20180904 04:44:52<+wesdiscordbot> I'm fine with quantum states 20180904 04:45:03<+wesdiscordbot> electrons being in 2 states at once? 20180904 04:46:31<+wesdiscordbot> "it would never register light moving ahead of it", this video says, in reference to a thought experiment of a car made of photons 20180904 04:47:09<+wesdiscordbot> And that's because such a car doesn't experience time at all. 20180904 04:47:12<+wesdiscordbot> but it also reiterate jyrki's point about infinite time dilation 20180904 04:47:32<+wesdiscordbot> Note that if it's any slower, then it continues to exp 20180904 04:47:48<+wesdiscordbot> yes, but at a snail's pace 20180904 04:48:03<+wesdiscordbot> "could travel billions of our years before a single second passed for it" 20180904 04:48:16<+wesdiscordbot> 🤔 maybe jyrki is a physicist 20180904 04:48:20<+wesdiscordbot> (referring to a particle almost at c) 20180904 04:48:25<+wesdiscordbot> I know this 20180904 04:48:42<+wesdiscordbot> Even if the car is moving at 99,9 % of c. 99,99999 % of c. 99,99999999999% of c. It doesn't matter how many nines you add, the light beam still appears to move at c relative to the car. 20180904 04:48:49<+wesdiscordbot> (though I wasn't thinking of the lack of time in terms of time dilation, more that information could never be exchanged) 20180904 04:48:59<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20180904 04:50:05<+wesdiscordbot> but if the car were moving at c, it would experience no time. 20180904 04:50:19<+wesdiscordbot> there would be no movement, because there would be no time for movement to happen 20180904 04:50:38 * celticminstrel zzzz 20180904 04:50:47-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] 20180904 04:50:57<+wesdiscordbot> therefor, I think celmin is wrong that from the reference frame of a photon another would overtake it. There's no time for that to happen :/ 20180904 04:51:10<+wesdiscordbot> or maybe I'm just thinking about this backwards 🤔 20180904 04:53:28<+wesdiscordbot> i dunno 20180904 04:55:15<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi as for quantum states, it's not really "being in two states at once", is it? It's more like "existing in a weird probability state where certain specific states are more likely than others to be the state of the electron at any given instant"? or do I have that wrong too 20180904 04:55:28<+wesdiscordbot> no 20180904 04:55:33<+wesdiscordbot> it exists in two states at once 20180904 04:55:38<+wesdiscordbot> and as soon as you try to measure it 20180904 04:55:51<+wesdiscordbot> then you have a probability of measuring one state or another 20180904 04:55:56<+wesdiscordbot> but before you measure it, it's in both at once 20180904 04:55:59<+wesdiscordbot> well, yes, the wave function collapses if you measure it 20180904 04:56:02<+wesdiscordbot> or several 20180904 04:56:13<+wesdiscordbot> I'm referring to when you're not measuring it 20180904 04:56:18<+wesdiscordbot> yup 20180904 04:56:20<+wesdiscordbot> then it's in several 20180904 04:56:24<+wesdiscordbot> I guess "at any given instant" isn't a good way to put it 20180904 04:56:53<+wesdiscordbot> wait 20180904 04:57:20<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi actually, isn't that probability the likelihood if it collapsing into a specific state when measured? 20180904 04:57:42<+wesdiscordbot> if you say psi = 0.8 psi1 + 0.2 psi2 20180904 04:57:52<+wesdiscordbot> then the likelihood that you measure psi1 is 0.8 20180904 04:57:59<+wesdiscordbot> and the likelihood thatyou measure psi2 is 0.2 20180904 04:58:07<+wesdiscordbot> however it is that specific combination of states if you don't measure it 20180904 04:58:14<+wesdiscordbot> right 20180904 04:58:17<+wesdiscordbot> i got it backwards 20180904 04:58:21<+wesdiscordbot> sorry 😬 20180904 04:58:33<+wesdiscordbot> honestly that makes sense. 20180904 04:58:34<+wesdiscordbot> so it's in 2 places at once 20180904 04:58:40<+wesdiscordbot> and it has 2 different energies at the same time 20180904 04:58:55<+wesdiscordbot> i mean that's just quantum mechanics for you 20180904 04:59:04<+wesdiscordbot> and whatever other quantities quantum defines, we didn't go beyond the first couple 20180904 04:59:19<+wesdiscordbot> so the point is 20180904 04:59:30<+wesdiscordbot> when you get to light speeds/quantum/whatever 20180904 04:59:38<+wesdiscordbot> ordinary reasoning with velocity/position/mass, etc. don't apply 20180904 04:59:45<+wesdiscordbot> this whole argument about light is more confusing 😛 20180904 05:00:20<+wesdiscordbot> i still don't understand what celmin meant when he said from the reference frame of one photon another would lap it. 20180904 05:00:32<+wesdiscordbot> as in, when you have two EM waves traveling in space, you can't think of them in the same way as you would regular objects 20180904 05:00:55<+wesdiscordbot> @Vultraz That case sounds like misunderstanding to me. 20180904 05:01:44<+wesdiscordbot> It's indeed the case for anything that's not moving at exactly the speed of light. But as you said, if you reach exactly the speed of light, then there is no such thing as velocities of other particles. 20180904 05:02:00<+wesdiscordbot> ok, that's what i thought 20180904 05:02:05<+wesdiscordbot> 👍 20180904 05:51:41<+wesdiscordbot> I can't access the site 20180904 05:51:44<+wesdiscordbot> Help 20180904 05:52:31<+wesdiscordbot> It's working fine here. 20180904 05:53:20<+wesdiscordbot> I can't access it on mobile 20180904 05:53:49<+wesdiscordbot> works fine for me too 20180904 05:54:27<+wesdiscordbot> My internet's not working on Chrome but it works on Discord 20180904 05:55:57<+wesdiscordbot> What do? 20180904 05:58:50<+wesdiscordbot> Rebooting the device may help. 20180904 06:05:35-!- vincent_c [~bip@vcheng.org] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 06:11:21<+wesdiscordbot> I just did and yet the problem remains 20180904 06:25:05<+wesdiscordbot> maybe your chrome has a problem then? 20180904 06:25:17<+wesdiscordbot> like needs an update or something 20180904 06:25:35<+wesdiscordbot> although that shouldn't prevent it from working 20180904 06:27:26-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 06:59:56<+wesdiscordbot> Hmmm... Looks like "time travel" into the future is possoble but into the past is not. I wonder how negative speeds would affect that assuming that they exist. (Just thinking about what would be this like.) 20180904 07:01:24-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 07:01:48-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 07:19:11-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20180904 07:20:11<+wesdiscordbot> I was also apparently mistaken about quarks and electrons not having mass... 🤔 20180904 07:20:46<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, they do have mass. 20180904 07:20:49<+wesdiscordbot> seems they do have mass from Higgs interactions 20180904 07:21:21<+wesdiscordbot> BTW, the more general term is leptons. That term refers to electrons, muons, tau particles, and their neutrinos. 20180904 07:21:50<+wesdiscordbot> I can never remember the labels of the standard model >_> 20180904 07:27:58-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180904 07:44:27-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 07:49:10-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20180904 08:32:52<+wesdiscordbot> @Hejnewar Technically we are always traveling to the future from the present. (I think?) 20180904 08:33:07<+wesdiscordbot> It's just that no-one is doing it faster than everybody else. 20180904 08:33:38<+wesdiscordbot> ...except astronauts. 20180904 08:35:00<+wesdiscordbot> Well if you are traveling with lightspeed you are traveling to the future reliative to our civilization. You will preety quickly get to year lats say 40873. 20180904 08:39:19<+wesdiscordbot> If I was travelling with c I'd probably stuck until the enery runs out. I'm sure that I need some massive calculations first so I stop where I want to stop and not at some random time and place. 20180904 08:39:47<+wesdiscordbot> And it's not that likely that people will be around at 40873. 20180904 08:40:25<+wesdiscordbot> Too mutch logic to little imagination. 20180904 08:58:45<+wesdiscordbot> in the grim darkness of 40k, there is only war 20180904 09:26:27-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180904 09:26:33-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 10:13:36<+wesdiscordbot> *energy 20180904 12:16:02-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 12:36:55-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish.] 20180904 14:08:11<+wesdiscordbot> In the grim darkness of the fourth first century, there is only undead vs undead matches 20180904 14:10:30<+wesdiscordbot> my sweet summer child 20180904 14:10:59<+wesdiscordbot> you (probably) have no idea what undead vs undead matches were like before Arcane was given to ghosts and adepts 20180904 14:11:07<+wesdiscordbot> it litterally never ended 20180904 14:11:29<+wesdiscordbot> perhaps fittingly - undead remnants, cursed to battle for all eternity, incapable of death 20180904 14:25:35-!- HeyCitizen_ [HeyCitizen@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/heycitizen] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20180904 14:26:49-!- HeyCitizen [~HeyCitize@sttrpq3809w-lp130-05-69-156-204-156.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 14:27:51<+wesdiscordbot> What were ghosts before? 20180904 14:28:23<+wesdiscordbot> Cold 20180904 14:28:41<+wesdiscordbot> http://zapicm.freeshell.org/1_02/Ghost.html 20180904 14:29:42<+wesdiscordbot> What do you think is the worst faction yo fight undead 20180904 14:29:53<+wesdiscordbot> all factions are supposed to be balanced 20180904 14:30:01<+wesdiscordbot> Ok 20180904 14:30:26<+wesdiscordbot> What do you think is the worst faction to fight undead my friend 20180904 14:30:33<+wesdiscordbot> after all that is the result of 10 years of balancing efforts 20180904 14:32:02<+wesdiscordbot> on a tiny map like isar, massed adepts are enormously theratening to drakes 20180904 14:32:08<+wesdiscordbot> but isar is not supposed to balanced anyway 20180904 15:24:14-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20180904 15:24:52-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 15:34:06<+wesdiscordbot> 9 players out of 10 will say drakes, but i feel more uncomfortable against them with orcs 20180904 15:45:36-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180904 16:24:06<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> that moment an Ulfserker thought it's a good idea to attack an entrenched Longbowman, and in the dust arises a Master Bowman XD 20180904 16:26:05<+wesdiscordbot> :bowman: 20180904 16:26:44<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> The more facepalmy part, tho, is that the Ulfserker attacks from shallow (I think? Lemme check the replay) 20180904 16:27:40-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 16:31:54<+wesdiscordbot> 🤷 20180904 16:32:39<+wesdiscordbot> trading an ulf for a longbowman would be fine in most cases, but if it was from full hp with those terrains, the ulf would probably lose 20180904 16:45:57-!- DasBrain [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 16:47:27-!- Johannes13 [~Johannes1@unaffiliated/johannes13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20180904 17:01:46<+wesdiscordbot> Especially so at daytime. 20180904 17:09:10-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20180904 17:34:56<+wesdiscordbot> hello 20180904 17:38:23<+wesdiscordbot> Hi 20180904 17:58:55-!- HeyCitizen [~HeyCitize@sttrpq3809w-lp130-05-69-156-204-156.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.1 - https://znc.in] 20180904 18:00:17-!- HeyCitizen [~HeyCitize@sttrpq3809w-lp130-05-69-156-204-156.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 18:20:40-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 18:22:16<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> @Yumi TBF it turns out to be a close call. 20180904 18:22:47<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> Dem terrains tho~ 20180904 18:23:01<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> Ulf @ shallow vs LB @ hills 20180904 18:23:18<+wesdiscordbot> <7636kei> (Freelands, with me on south and second) 20180904 18:58:58<+wesdiscordbot> attacking from shallow water with land units always feels bad for me 20180904 19:08:40<+wesdiscordbot> i do not get the odd choices the ai makes, like has Wose and a merman puts fish on wood tile and tree into water, when it had good defense opportunity within reach for both, and it makes sense to use Merman anyways to try finishing off the Naga opponent about to die that was also in water, instead trying it via putting the Wose into water. 20180904 19:10:03<+wesdiscordbot> naturally loses both units at next turn due to that odd placement. 20180904 19:10:17<+wesdiscordbot> where using it proper would allow both to live 20180904 19:15:41<+wesdiscordbot> I think if the ai thinks it has a good chance to kill your unit, it tries to do that and disregards its own defenses 20180904 19:15:55<+wesdiscordbot> it's certainly really bad about trying to minimize damage in most cases 20180904 19:24:09-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 19:26:13-!- gfgtdf [~chatzilla@x4dbc5edb.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 19:37:38< oldlaptop> doesn't really even take relative cost into consideration, does it? 20180904 19:38:57< oldlaptop> it's especially silly with ulfserkers, as far as I can see 20180904 19:43:28-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 19:55:59<+wesdiscordbot> Agreed. 20180904 19:58:24-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20180904 19:59:15<+wesdiscordbot> does Ai take Time of the Day into consideration, does it understand the alignment the units have when making its moves ? because it looks like it doesnt. 20180904 20:02:50< zookeeper> it understands the effects the current ToD has (just like any other combat modifiers), but it doesn't plan for the next turn. 20180904 20:04:31< zookeeper> or, in other words, if you were confident that it actually doesn't take current ToD into account at all and could demonstrate that somehow, i'm sure that'd be big news. 20180904 20:07:30<+wesdiscordbot> was simply asking because never witnessed loyalist AI retreating to safe defence at dusk when facing Northerners, it keeps pressing the attack and naturally loses in the night. 20180904 20:08:09<+wesdiscordbot> when the odds was clearly overwhelmingly stacked against loyalist 20180904 20:08:47<+wesdiscordbot> 'doesnt plan for the next turn' explains it actually 20180904 20:10:03< zookeeper> i'm pretty sure even the current AI is still particularly bad at retreating. retreating kind of requires it to think ahead past the current turn. it can abstain from attacking if it's parameters tell it that the available attack options are too costly, but it can't mount a good passive defense. 20180904 20:16:07-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 20:35:14-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20180904 20:46:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20180904 20:47:15<+wesdiscordbot> I wish there were more survivial maps 20180904 21:11:56<+wesdiscordbot> Woah 20180904 21:12:18<+wesdiscordbot> I haven't played this game in like 4 months 20180904 21:19:34<+wesdiscordbot> lol i havent played it for years 20180904 21:19:38<+wesdiscordbot> until recently that s 20180904 21:19:40<+wesdiscordbot> *is 20180904 21:40:03-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 21:41:38<+wesdiscordbot> I did a video on it like 4 months ago on my channel and it got 111 views so i decided I should play a game I like that does well more often, but playing this on mobile was hell 20180904 21:42:11<+wesdiscordbot> now that i have a windows laptop i cna actually play LotI the right way at good quality 20180904 21:44:53<+wesdiscordbot> I'm gonna record tonight with my friend and ill have it edited and posted on the 12th if i feel like i ahould do posts Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays 20180904 21:53:06-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180904 22:10:37-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 22:14:33-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20180904 22:18:44<+wesdiscordbot> Has anyone else noticed that the AI Lieutenant is notoriously bad at moving to another keep? In playing 2v2 with AI, it seems he'll never move from the starting keep to a keep that would be more tactical advantageous. Yet, at least some other AI leaders do. 20180904 22:30:26-!- louis94 [~~louis94@109.49-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20180904 22:36:21-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20180904 22:51:15<+wesdiscordbot> I think the AI sometimes does it, but I think when compared to most human players of Wesnoth, the AI isn't too good. 20180904 22:51:57<+wesdiscordbot> Which is usually why scenario makers usually set the AI with more starting gold and villages at the start to create more of a challenge. 20180904 22:53:45-!- kitsunenokenja [~kitsunech@68.91.220.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20180904 23:16:13< aeth> Once a human understands ToD and positioning they're better than the AI. 20180904 23:17:30<+wesdiscordbot> @Not Hamel: Of course, it's just bizarre because the unit I mentioned - the Lieutenant - seems to always make that terrible tactical decision, while other AI leaders move to a keep closer to the enemy for better recruiting. 20180904 23:17:44<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, alright. 20180904 23:17:49<+wesdiscordbot> Misinterpreted, sorry. 20180904 23:18:08<+wesdiscordbot> Well...that's rather interesting, I think I might test it out soon. 20180904 23:18:20<+wesdiscordbot> Playing against ai and playing against players needs different strategies. E.g. I'm fairly good at defeating the ai without losing units if I'm paying attention. Playing vs ai is mostly a matter of grinding it down without collapsing. Against players...not so much. 20180904 23:19:50<+wesdiscordbot> ^ 20180904 23:20:34<+wesdiscordbot> The AI tends to focus on single units, and when it goes on a 'raid' to kill a single unit, it usually places units in swamps, rivers, etc, just to get more hits in. 20180904 23:21:53<+wesdiscordbot> Then, the AI tends to spend most of its gold right away, leaving a debt crisis for it of sorts. 20180904 23:26:51<+wesdiscordbot> Agreed. 20180904 23:34:54<+wesdiscordbot> Which is why Player VS AI survivals tend to be tough at the start, but after you defeat the initial waves, the AI needs time to get out of the negative income they likely have. 20180904 23:36:08<+wesdiscordbot> Kinda like the last part of add-on scenario The Fall of Trent. The enemy leader starts with 800ish gold and sends lots of orcs right at you, but once you clear them away [with some difficulty], it's usually enough time to heal all your units for the final charge. 20180904 23:36:37<+wesdiscordbot> I mean 20180904 23:36:50<+wesdiscordbot> a lot of survivals use spawns though 20180904 23:40:20<+wesdiscordbot> @Crushmaster Is that with the default AI or the Experimental AI? 20180904 23:40:30<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, yeah, they do. 20180904 23:40:37<+wesdiscordbot> Forgot about those, sorry. 20180904 23:41:02< janebot> wesnoth: What are your favourite co op campaigns ? (by /u/Black_Bird_Cloud) https://redd.it/9d0y04 20180904 23:41:16<+wesdiscordbot> The default AI has no built-in mechanism for castle switching at all, so if it happens, it's essentially "accidental". On the other hand, the Experimental AI does have a castle_switching action. 20180904 23:41:32<+wesdiscordbot> Ones with spawns are fun, as they add to a sense of not knowing what's ahead, but some people do re-load after they know what the surprise is. 20180904 23:42:38<+wesdiscordbot> That's what I like about Bob's scenarios. They're not survivals, but they are hard scenarios which should take 2-4 hours to complete [BoL might take up to 6], and they use spawns. 20180904 23:50:58<+wesdiscordbot> @mattsc Default. 20180904 23:59:37<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, that's super interesting. Didn't know default didn't have it coded. --- Log closed Wed Sep 05 00:00:12 2018