--- Log opened Thu Oct 04 00:00:54 2018
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20181004 00:41:36<+wesdiscordbot> <ghype> i think thelians are the old vilkai, which were made by @Bitron . I guee you can find them in Ageless or  in  MiE - Millenium Era, i guess, correct me if I am wrong
20181004 00:44:22< hk238> right it was a misunderstanding, I thought the graphics for the MiE - Thelians faction were just taken from Vilkai, so I thought maybe I should look into the original faction and include them instead of the MiE version, but now that I found the forum thread, it seems that Bitron is also the author of MiE so I think it was rather that the faction was moved into that or renamed 
20181004 00:46:27< hk238> I was thinking about creating a probabilistic stealth system for no particular reason :d 
20181004 00:47:18< hk238> or that would be one of the applications of having defined a distance metric in terms of function, so you could then write a function that gives the probability per turn that a stealthed unit is revealed, for an example
20181004 00:48:49< hk238> I guess a central problem with that would be that the potential locations a unit can be in during a turn are numerous, and it's unclear which locations should be used for the stealth check then. Perhaps the first location at beginning of turn, or the position at the end of turn, or maybe the whole path at the end of turn, but it would be tricky  then I guess
20181004 00:50:16< hk238> other applications would be having abilities which have a different strength at different distances, and could also use separate functions for them. Does the effect decrease in proportion to the square of the distance, as an example? 
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20181004 01:35:42< hk238> hm looking at lua based chess modules on github, could try and make one of them to work on MP server :o
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20181004 03:32:39< hk238> hmm can an [effect] contain multiple effects? :o
20181004 03:33:28< hk238> I'm trying to write this ring to effect funtion for creepwars but most of these rings have multiple effects and so I'm wondering how I should start packaging them 
20181004 03:37:05< hk238> hmm it seems if there are multiple effects then should write a function that takes an array of effects or something
20181004 04:56:36< vn971> > has anyone written a LUA distance function?
20181004 04:56:36< vn971> I have. I'll reply a bit later, but I have both functions.
20181004 04:57:07< vn971> or better to say, I have the "real distance" function. The "hex distance" is provided by wesnoth API, if you manage to find it (I'll point to it later).
20181004 04:58:20< hk238> oh cool :D
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20181004 05:38:08< vn971> hk238: this is it, I think:
20181004 05:38:09< vn971> 	local function dist(x, y, vill_x, vill_y)
20181004 05:38:09< vn971> 		local dx = math.abs(x - vill_x)
20181004 05:38:09< vn971> 		local dy = math.abs(y - (x % 2) / 2 - vill_y + (vill_x % 2) / 2)
20181004 05:38:09< vn971> 		return dx * dx + dy * dy
20181004 05:38:09< vn971> 	end
20181004 05:38:30< vn971> it measures real distance between (x, y)  and (vill_x, vill_y)
20181004 05:39:17< vn971> or rather, it measures the quadrant of it, if I read my code correctly. Also I have no idea why I'm taking `math.abs`. Feel free to wipe it out.
20181004 05:40:35< vn971> so it should be   local function dist(x,y, a,b)  local dx=x-a;  local dy=y-(x%2)/2 - b+(a%2)/2;  return dx*dx+dy*dy;  end
20181004 05:41:19< vn971> hk238: the hex distance function is exposed in standard wesnoth API here:  https://wiki.wesnoth.org/LuaWML:Pathfinder#helper.distance_between
20181004 05:43:45< vn971> hk238: an array of effects is nice, until/unless you start needing real Lua functions to get the job. Like if, for example, applying some special ring should calculate something in Lua first, then give a calculated effect. But I guess 95% of possible effects can be pre-calculated and fit into the [effect] tag pretty nicely.
20181004 06:18:30< hk238> hi :d
20181004 06:19:19< hk238> is that really correct?
20181004 06:19:35< hk238> the formula 
20181004 06:20:51< vn971> hk238: should be. I had an add-on based on it and it worked smooth.
20181004 06:21:26< vn971> if the closest village to you was yours, you had a damage boost)
20181004 06:22:14< vn971> and by means of "science" you could progressively increase strength on enemy territory, up to a point that it reaches 100% and higher (attacking becomes beneficial).
20181004 06:22:44< hk238> I think that might not be correct but I got all these windows open and having trouble concentrating
20181004 06:23:03< vn971> close windows, install Linux!   (:D jk)
20181004 06:23:07< hk238> D:
20181004 06:24:01< hk238> hmm I guess it coudl be correct afterall sorry 
20181004 06:24:31< hk238> no I don't think so actually
20181004 06:24:49< hk238> the problem is the relative proportions of the x and y components
20181004 06:25:14< hk238> no wait it might still be correct
20181004 06:26:25< hk238> I think it's probably correct anyway :o
20181004 06:28:12< vn971> :D
20181004 06:28:59< hk238> ahh this is complicated :D
20181004 06:30:47< hk238> if you have a point at say (10,10) and then you consider the step to (11,10)
20181004 06:31:10< hk238> the distance to the the center of 11,10 is presumably the same, depending on the shape of the hexagon?! 
20181004 06:31:38< hk238> and you consider the distance to the center of the (10,9) which is one step north
20181004 06:32:01< vn971> hk238: hexes are assumed to be "perfect" (120deg each angle).  In real wesnoth graphics they aren't, but code assumes they are.
20181004 06:32:21< hk238> so if the length of the steps, to north, and to northeast is the same 
20181004 06:32:35< hk238> but it has an x and y component
20181004 06:32:50< hk238> so the x component per step has to be smaller than the y component to the direction north
20181004 06:33:07< hk238> so the problem is that I think x and y components to be scaled to proportions after all
20181004 06:33:43< hk238> I'm also playing afterlife and just finished drawing another minotaur :D About to get coffee and have a cigarette 
20181004 06:35:16< hk238> in otherwords 1 step on the x coordinates is less than 1 unit in terms of x axis, or a vector that's orthogonal to the y axis
20181004 06:35:36< hk238> and the actual distance on the x axis is cosine of the angle? Which is what?
20181004 06:36:19< hk238> 30 degrees?
20181004 06:37:50< hk238> so in radians it's cosine of 2*(1/12)*pi for the x component and the y component I guess is sine of the same 
20181004 06:38:00< vn971> hk238: yes, all three hexes should have identical distance between them:  https://pointsgame.net/vn971/temp/2018.10.04_09:36:03_bb44070.png
20181004 06:38:41< hk238> so in the direction that is between the northeast and southeast cell, if you consider that to be the direction of the x axis
20181004 06:39:05< hk238> then the step to northeast is smaller in terms of the x component, than the step north, which involves just a y component
20181004 06:39:43< vn971> hk238: hmmm... Maybe the code is wrong indeed. Gotta check, 1 min.
20181004 06:39:46< hk238> Although there's a possibility the formula ignores that due to the squaring so it might still get the distance right anyway brb
20181004 06:40:37< vn971> ok yes, the code is wrong. I dug up the other one that should be correct though:
20181004 06:41:26< vn971> This one is correct it seems:   function dist(x,y, a,b)  local dx=x-a;  local dy=y-(x%2)/2 - b+(a%2)/2;  return dx*dx*3/4+dy*dy;  end
20181004 06:41:45< vn971> it differs from previous by replacing  dx*dx  with  dx*dx*3/4
20181004 06:42:51< vn971> it gives distance "1" for all of the coordinate pairs from the screenshot above. I think it's correct now after all.
20181004 06:43:34< hk238> yeah :o 
20181004 06:45:49< hk238> yeah 
20181004 06:51:34< hk238> so the x component is difference in x coordinates multiplied with squareroot of 3 over 2
20181004 06:51:58< hk238> and if x is.. odd? then add 0.5 to the y component?
20181004 06:52:59< hk238> for an example distance between 10,10 and 19,17 would be 9 * 0.5 * √3  and the y component would be 7 + 0.5 ?
20181004 06:53:40< hk238> so with the distances as vectors can also calculate angles if there's any reason for that 
20181004 06:54:27< hk238> maybe some magical resistance buffing ability that increases arcane resistance in NE directions and fire resistance in NW directions in proportion to the angle with respect to north :D
20181004 06:57:04< hk238> would also make sense if there was some rotating magical spire that had an effect only to a certain direction
20181004 06:59:02< vn971> > and if x is.. odd? then add 0.5 to the y component?  -- yup.
20181004 06:59:14< vn971> > difference in x coordinates multiplied with squareroot of 3 over 2  -- yup
20181004 07:00:07< hk238> another thing I was thinking about would be the cyberpunk game like if you have these stealthing units, maybe an EMP grenade can disable stealthing devices within a certain distance in a probablistic fashion
20181004 07:00:17< hk238> :D
20181004 07:03:11< hk238> hmm any suggestions for cool abilities that minotaurs could have? :o
20181004 07:03:43< hk238> I was thinking about making this mace wielding minotaur stun, so that stunned units have no zoc (this is already done in other eras) but also reduce defense by 10 or 20 
20181004 07:04:21< hk238> maybe they could become enraged which would increase damage but lower defense and accuracy
20181004 07:04:22< hk238> :D
20181004 07:11:08< hk238> also need to come up with a name for this axe wielding minotaur 
20181004 07:11:37< hk238> I have 'minotaur fighter' 'minotaur crusher' and now this axe version.. ANd also the shepherd but I'm not sure if the shepherd fits into this faction could do a separate minotaur faction 
20181004 07:12:41< hk238> I'll just call it warrior for now
20181004 07:16:35< vn971> "enraging" is nice :)
20181004 07:24:02< hk238> can you define two different effects for one weapon special?
20181004 07:24:24< hk238> I decided to give this axe wielding minotaur weaponspecial "massive" which increases damage by +25% when attacking, and reduces CTH by 10% when defending 
20181004 07:24:52< hk238> i.e. https://pastebin.com/ywR7DpGQ
20181004 07:36:44< hk238> hmm actually I'll change the chance_to_hit effect to apply both on defense and offense :o
20181004 07:40:41< hk238> seems to work, great :D
20181004 07:42:03< vn971> I have no idea why would we need that BTW, but it could technically be possitle to write a "frenzy" weapon special that increases attacks while it successfully hits. For example, "frenzy 1" will hit until it misses one time. First miss = stop of attacking.
20181004 07:43:06< vn971> The closer your terrain defense to 0% is, the stronger this weapon will be. On 0% terrain defense it will basically hit forever until the unit dies.
20181004 07:43:58< vn971> So with classical terrain resistance, you could say that the difference between 100% and your terrain resistance is what matters (linearly).
20181004 07:44:20< vn971> Against "frenzy" weapons, the difference between your terrain def and 0% will be what matters.
20181004 07:54:37< hk238> a bit similar ability was written in the altered era ruleset 
20181004 07:55:01< hk238> it allows the attacker to make 1 extra attack, but not if all the attacks hit
20181004 07:55:09< hk238> so it kind of stabilizes the number of hits 
20181004 07:55:37< hk238> of course gameplay effect is very different but the idea of changing the number of attacks that go on in a way that is dependent on the number of hits is very similar
20181004 07:56:00< hk238> I think that would be an interesting ability 
20181004 07:56:10< hk238> could also go for a little moderated version of the same
20181004 07:56:29< hk238> like you have 2 base attacks, if they both hit, you get 1 extra attack
20181004 07:57:19< hk238> that's still 50% increase in number of attacks, which applies when you already have hit twice.. hmm on the other hand, there's the chance that 2 hits out of 2 is enough anyway
20181004 07:57:44< hk238> or maybe, you have 2 attacks, if at least one of them hits, you get one extra attack
20181004 07:58:48< hk238> which though is almsot the same as if you have 3 attacks, you lose the 3rd if you miss twice
20181004 07:59:44< hk238> overall though I like the frenzy type idea
20181004 08:00:10< hk238> btw if you have any other weapon special / abiltiy suggestions, I'd be interested.. since I'm kind of adding custom units to this "old era" thing now
20181004 08:01:08< hk238> although creepwars could do with some new stuff to buy too
20181004 08:01:08< hk238> :D
20181004 08:01:30< hk238> btw how do you filter for undead, magical, mechanical & the like?
20181004 08:04:08< hk238> btw what do you think about the following modification:
20181004 08:04:30< hk238> when unit attacks another unit, the type of the defending units terrain would affect the attackers defense?
20181004 08:04:55< hk238> for an example if you have swordman in a castle, next to a grassland, where an archer stands
20181004 08:05:13< hk238> so when the archer fires into the castle, great, there are fortifications behind which the swordsman can hide
20181004 08:05:16< hk238> but
20181004 08:05:25< hk238> when the swordsman comes out of the castle and attacks the archer with a sword
20181004 08:05:36< hk238> it doesn't make sense that the castle helps with that attack, because it's melee range
20181004 08:05:50< hk238> so with that in mind, I thought about the following method:
20181004 08:06:17< hk238> when a unit uses a melee attack on another unit, 2/3 of his defense is dependent on the defender's type of terrain 
20181004 08:06:47< vn971> > so it kind of stabilizes the number of hits  -- yes. The "frenzy" will, on the contrary, increase the diversion.
20181004 08:07:12< hk238> yeah it allows for extreme spiking to happen 
20181004 08:07:34< vn971> > btw how do you filter for undead, magical, mechanical & the like?  -- no idea, never done that TBH..
20181004 08:07:39< hk238> and the probability of successive hits being geometric 
20181004 08:08:25< hk238> like 0.9 , 0.81, 0.729 ... vs 0.5, 0.25 ,0.125
20181004 08:08:45< hk238> you have 6 times better chances of hitting 3 times in a row with 90% cth than you do with a 50% cth
20181004 08:09:13< hk238> while looking at juts the percentages, 90% chance to hit is only 80% better.. not 600% better 
20181004 08:09:57< hk238> but the probability of successive strikes increases the meaning of defense geometrically with that frenzy.. I mean literally, the chance is direct multiplication 
20181004 08:11:24< vn971> I haven't calculated exactly whether it's multiplication or what, but yeah, standing on 10% would be a disaster against frenzy.
20181004 08:11:50< hk238> yes and this phenomenon takes place constantly in wesnoth 
20181004 08:12:11< hk238> the average damage you take is different from the probability of successive strikes 
20181004 08:13:03< hk238> like if you're on 70% defense, and you're worried you might lose a unit if opponent gets 3/3, then your chances of losing the unit are only 2.7%
20181004 08:13:18< hk238> where as if you are on 60% defense, your chances of losing the unit due to 3/3 are 6.4%
20181004 08:13:38< hk238> so there's almost 250% chance to lose your unit on 60% terrain compared to 70% terrain in that case
20181004 08:16:04< vn971> yes. So basically it's not 60% and 70% to defend, but rather 40% and 30% to take a hit.
20181004 08:16:28< hk238> I guess it makes more sense to calculate damage rather than not damage
20181004 08:16:29< hk238> :D
20181004 08:16:29< vn971> or 70% against magic folk, which is why magic rocks.
20181004 08:17:26< vn971> so against "frenzy", it will be reverted. 70% and 60% are close by, but 10% is more than two times worse than 20%.
20181004 08:18:08< vn971> again, I didn't say wesnoth actually needs it :D  Just saying it's technically possible to implement such weapon.
20181004 08:18:40< hk238> I think a moderated version of that could be interesting such as getting an extra attack or two
20181004 08:18:53< hk238> another variant would be that if your opponent hits your unit, you get extra attacks
20181004 08:18:58< hk238> :D
20181004 08:19:07< vn971> hmm true :D
20181004 08:19:13< vn971> a berserker variaton
20181004 08:19:17< hk238> vengeance!
20181004 08:19:25< hk238> combine it with swarm. 8(
20181004 08:19:38< vn971> or alternatively, each successful hit adds one more strike but decreases CTH by 10%.
20181004 08:19:49< vn971> so it's guaranteed that you won't make 11 hits.
20181004 08:20:00< hk238> units strikes are increased by the number of strikes it was hit bybetween the end of your last turn and at the beginning of your new turn
20181004 08:20:14< hk238> oh that's an interesting possibility :d
20181004 08:20:49< hk238> speaking of which can you construct a special function that stabilizes at some % 
20181004 08:20:52< vn971> anyway, be wary hk238 :D  I'm just throwing crazy ideas on you -- which is not the same as implementing the crazines -- and then trying to balance it!!! )
20181004 08:21:16< vn971> (The latter would be multiple times harder.)
20181004 08:21:19< hk238> like if you hit ,you get a multiplicative increase in chance to hit
20181004 08:21:42< hk238> let's see
20181004 08:22:18< hk238> the chance to get 2 successive hits is your current cth squared, or current * next
20181004 08:22:40< hk238> well there's nothing in particular 
20181004 08:22:55< hk238> I guess it doesn't work like that in this case
20181004 08:23:09< hk238> coz of course you can just get a value close to 1, but doesn't make sense
20181004 08:24:22< hk238> riposte might be an interesting special, like, if your opponent misses, you get an extra attack, or extra damage or something
20181004 08:26:43< hk238> vn971 I like these ideas and I think I can also implement most abilities & weaponspecials after.... annoying everyone with persistent demands for assistance :D
20181004 08:30:33< hk238> I'm making these minotaur units, they all have a piercing charge attack in addition to regular weapon, the horns
20181004 08:30:53< hk238> was thinkign could create traits like "broken horn" which would decrease the charge attack's damage, but what should it grant in return? 
20181004 08:31:16< hk238> oh but maybe I could do a combination of a positive trait and a negative trait :d
20181004 08:31:32< hk238> well that's something to think about
20181004 08:31:51< hk238> now I'm going to implement this stun thing but I don't remember how to filter for undead, mechanical & the like
20181004 08:32:59< hk238> hmm I guess you filter trait
20181004 08:33:14< hk238> and might as well add dim to the list of traits....... :D
20181004 08:43:18< hk238> hmm turn end is probably an event?
20181004 08:44:45<+wesdiscordbot> <jyrkive> Yes, there is a turn end event.
20181004 08:50:21< hk238> yes sorry I juts realized that I can use the object duration and set it to turn end instead of going through this trouble of setting a variable nad then unsetting the effects at end of turn
20181004 08:51:36< hk238> can I use an object to modify a units defense by 10% or do I need to set a new defense for all terrains that's 10% higher? :o
20181004 08:53:22< hk238> guess I could store the unit's defense values and change them respectively but it seems troublesome to do it that way
20181004 08:54:52< hk238> hm 
20181004 08:55:18< hk238> it's probably easier to define an even that increases the attackers chance to hit than to change all the defense values :o
20181004 08:57:17< hk238> except how would I do that in an attack event? :o
20181004 08:59:11< hk238> looks like someone has done a similarish thing on the forums
20181004 09:00:52< hk238> well I'll get this done one way or another :D
20181004 09:03:49< hk238> oh attack key has parry and accuracy, that's pretty cool :D
20181004 09:04:25< hk238> although accuracy affects apparently only offensive strikes? But anyway nice
20181004 09:04:51< hk238> nevermind I failed to read 
20181004 09:04:52< hk238> :D
20181004 09:06:12< hk238> hm but since weapon has the accuracy tag... I could basically filter for the opponent and change accuracy? OH well this got complicated :D
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20181004 09:10:14< hk238> hmm although if I'd go through that then I might just as well construct an event that allows modifying defense in general, and not just in this particular case
20181004 09:11:30< vn971> > can I use an object to modify a units defense by 10%  -- you can just add an object that modifies it https://wiki.wesnoth.org/EffectWML  (look up for "defense")
20181004 09:11:53< hk238>  iwas looking at that but I understood that it requires modifying defense in each terrain by setting it?
20181004 09:12:27< vn971> by modifying it.  If you want to **set**, you'll also need  `replace=yes`
20181004 09:12:36< hk238> oh
20181004 09:13:00< vn971> though you'll probably have to list lots of terrains regardless...
20181004 09:13:01< hk238> I didn't get it when I read that.. 
20181004 09:13:02< hk238> :D
20181004 09:13:17< vn971> maybe not. IDK the [movetype] tag.
20181004 09:13:35< hk238> hm
20181004 09:14:05< hk238> well if it allows subtracting when replace=no I guess I'll just copypaste a typical movement 
20181004 09:16:03< hk238> https://pastebin.com/Sadshj3y
20181004 09:16:13< hk238> does this object look like it should work? I could test it in a moment too
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20181004 09:17:10< hk238> oh I got the negative wrong too.. darn :D
20181004 09:17:52< vn971> > I'll just copypaste a typical movement  -- yeah, I guess it should work.
20181004 09:18:32< vn971> yeah wesnoth is pretty tricky with all those "terrain resistances".. Takes a while to adapt, so to speak.
20181004 09:18:36< hk238> okay I think this ability is done, thanks vn971 would've probably taken me sometime otherwise :D
20181004 09:18:53< vn971> hk238: np ;)
20181004 09:19:33< hk238> hmm it would be possible to create an event handler which applies a dummy weaponspecial to an attack everytime someone attacks
20181004 09:20:03< hk238> and then you would just register a defense value modification with a filter 
20181004 09:20:37< hk238> or something like that but this works too so great.. I mean I hope it does
20181004 09:20:38< hk238> :D
20181004 09:26:08< hk238> okay the object works but the duration is apparently forever
20181004 09:26:23< hk238> "duration=turn_end" is this wrong? :D
20181004 09:27:20< hk238> I'll try "turn end" with those quotations marks as value
20181004 09:31:07< hk238> hmm actually no that's not correct.. the graphical overlay remains but the defense duration is correct
20181004 09:31:23< hk238> that's weird though
20181004 09:32:33< hk238> oh it's because I'm using replace instead of add
20181004 09:33:54< hk238> nope that wasn't it
20181004 09:34:00< hk238> hm
20181004 09:37:14< hk238> I guess I could create also an icon for this
20181004 09:37:34< hk238> but the duration doesn't seem to work correctly (so obviously I'm doing something wrong)
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20181004 12:03:41< zookeeper> duration isn't reliable for everything.
20181004 12:04:27< zookeeper> i don't know, but i find it quite possible that for example image_mods added with an object won't get removed when the object duration ends.
20181004 12:04:38< vn971> zookeeper: I think he's DC now.
20181004 12:05:15< vn971> zookeeper: though you're right indeed I think. Or at least image mods aren't deleted with `remove_object`.
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20181004 15:32:41< Ravana_> I did rewrite of hex recently, you can use those functions to change defense
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20181004 21:58:49< hk238> hi
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20181004 22:36:49< hk238> hmm thinking about maybe making a cyberpunk add-on inspired by Heindal's cyberpunk era/campaign
20181004 22:36:59< hk238> although it would be considerably arduous :o
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20181004 23:29:15<+wesdiscordbot> <ghype> can you share a link to that cyberpunk era?
--- Log closed Fri Oct 05 00:00:55 2018