--- Log opened Wed Oct 17 00:00:43 2018 20181017 00:51:14-!- celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel 20181017 04:49:08-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20181017 04:59:00-!- celmin|sleep [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20181017 06:41:35-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 07:21:53-!- vn971 [~vasya@94.158.103.15] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 10:23:14-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 12:18:52< hk238> vampire tree 20181017 12:18:57< hk238> will be included into the faction 20181017 12:19:00< hk238> :D 20181017 12:31:20< vn971> wow :D 20181017 12:31:34< vn971> scary though. 20181017 12:32:16< vn971> The most crazy faction in this regard are viruses though. Viruses, plague and the like :D 20181017 12:34:30-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 12:35:14-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away 20181017 13:34:06< hk238> which faction is that? 20181017 13:34:20< hk238> I was thinking about which kind of support units to include in the faction 20181017 13:34:28< hk238> and discovered that japan doesn't have any vampire myths 20181017 13:34:38< hk238> but they have a myth about vampire trees, called jubokko 20181017 13:35:04< hk238> it's something like, if a tree grows on a battlefield were many men have fallen, they'll drain blood with the roots and something like that 20181017 13:35:18< hk238> so I thought one of the support units unlocked by having a leader of the japanese vampire line would be a vampire tree 20181017 13:35:31< hk238> and it would have an ability that if a unit died in a hex adjacent to it, then it gains hitpoints 20181017 13:36:19< hk238> Dang I'm having trouble designing like I don't know what to do exactly also have trouble establishing somekind of working environment where it's nice to sketch what there will be 20181017 13:36:38< hk238> now shower... 20181017 14:09:51-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 15:59:41-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20181017 16:01:25-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 16:06:55< hk238> Anyone have any suggestions for unit titles? 20181017 16:07:01< vn971> I don't remember (the faction name). 20181017 16:09:38< hk238> 'attacker' doesn't sound like a good title 20181017 16:09:40< hk238> :D 20181017 16:09:45< hk238> just joking 20181017 16:10:02< hk238> I've named a third of the units so far 20181017 16:16:49< hk238> evoker? Advances into conjurer... Ah this is getting desperate 20181017 16:18:39< hk238> ''Sentry" is such a poor name 20181017 16:18:40< hk238> :D 20181017 16:18:53< hk238> I've no idea what to call the japanese line vampires 20181017 16:19:15<+wesdiscordbot> give them japanese names? 20181017 16:19:38-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20181017 16:19:48< hk238> possible, you have suggestions? 20181017 16:19:49< hk238> :D 20181017 16:20:22< hk238> Shõgun (female) , now your turn 20181017 16:20:33< hk238> sorry I'm just joking 20181017 16:20:50<+wesdiscordbot> '-' 20181017 16:21:01<+wesdiscordbot> some japanese demons are called oni 20181017 16:21:10< hk238> Oni-Woman 20181017 16:21:13< hk238> next 20181017 16:21:32< hk238> I should get serious again 20181017 16:21:44<+wesdiscordbot> Yōkai are the general ghosty supernatural creatures in japanese folklore 20181017 16:21:52<+wesdiscordbot> you can look them up and get ideas from there 20181017 16:21:59-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 16:22:13< hk238> The line is troubling because the higher level units are kind of like aristocrats, but the lower level units are commoners. I'm not sure what to call a level 2 unit that advances into some sort of a noble 20181017 16:22:43< hk238> I actually did that yesterday, looked up a wikipedia list of mythological creatures in japan. Discovered that japan doesn't have vampire myths (except the vampire tree called jubokko as mentioned earlier) 20181017 16:23:14< hk238> also the line with the victorian dress is called noble and advances into aristocrat - so that's already used otherwise it would be a candidate for this too 20181017 16:23:58< hk238> Could also copy White Wolf label 'antediluvian' since it's not actually coined by White Wolf but rather a biblical term meaning 'before the flood' as far as I understand 20181017 16:24:20< hk238> but that wouldn't fit the japanese line anyway.. 20181017 16:24:58<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazoku 20181017 16:25:06<+wesdiscordbot> v 20181017 16:25:07<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuge 20181017 16:25:29<+wesdiscordbot> you can probably work with those 20181017 16:27:22< hk238> thanks those look pretty interesting 20181017 16:28:18< hk238> I'm wondering though how a representative of those classes would be called? For an example it would be a reasonable progression that a member of civilian class would advance to the higher classes 20181017 16:28:55< hk238> Hanke -> Meika -> ( Seikage -> Sekke ) or ( Daijinke -> Seikage ) 20181017 16:29:13< hk238> but those seem to be nouns for the collective 20181017 16:29:20<+wesdiscordbot> yo, what are you guys up to? 20181017 16:29:44<+wesdiscordbot> I mean 20181017 16:29:56<+wesdiscordbot> Baron can also refer to a collective, it would just be barons 20181017 16:30:03<+wesdiscordbot> it's a title as well as a person 20181017 16:30:45< hk238> Oh I meant the ones on the Kuge page 20181017 16:31:43< hk238> I think the ones on the Kazoku page are nouns for single persons.. I guess they're also a possibility. I wonder what the feminine form is, since the japanese vampire line has only females currently :o 20181017 16:32:22< hk238> on the other hand the english words.. Baroness, Countess, Marquess are also possible 20181017 16:33:01< hk238> okay I found a nice page for this: I guess Marquess doesn't have a feminine form 20181017 16:33:09<+wesdiscordbot> so looking at the kanji the -ke is the last word referring to the class 20181017 16:33:10< hk238> copy paste failure 20181017 16:33:12<+wesdiscordbot> so you can probably remove that 20181017 16:33:12< hk238> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess 20181017 16:33:20<+wesdiscordbot> e.g. sek-ke becomes sek 20181017 16:33:27< hk238> on that wikipedia page, right hand side, has a nice list of all kinds of terms 20181017 16:33:34<+wesdiscordbot> well that's a bad example 20181017 16:33:39<+wesdiscordbot> sei-ga-ke can be sei-ga 20181017 16:34:44<+wesdiscordbot> anyway it might be easier to do it in english or ask a japanese person for help 20181017 16:35:24< hk238> yes thanks for the suggestion though 20181017 16:35:31<+wesdiscordbot> It's 1:35 AM in japan right now, so not a good time to ask Japanese people for help... 20181017 16:35:41< hk238> I wouldn't want to find out I called the level 4 royal vampire a "fork" 20181017 16:35:43< hk238> or something 20181017 16:35:55<+wesdiscordbot> wasn't suggesting now 20181017 16:36:08<+wesdiscordbot> just in general. 20181017 16:36:12< hk238> Do you live in Japan, jyrkive, or just otherwise aware of Japanese time? 20181017 16:36:20<+wesdiscordbot> china is 12 hours, japan is +1 20181017 16:36:31<+wesdiscordbot> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=time+in+tokyo 20181017 16:36:31<+wesdiscordbot> err relative to american eastern 20181017 16:36:42<+wesdiscordbot> and then it should be +6 and +7 for a lot of europe 20181017 16:36:50<+wesdiscordbot> Took just seconds to look it up, especially since I have DDG as my default search engine. 20181017 16:37:04< hk238> okay 20181017 16:37:46< hk238> I thought that might be the case because earlier you said you had done some work for the angry birds, and as far as I recall the company was purchased by a Japanese company, so I thought... Wouldn't be impossible if someone moved over there to work. Well that was unlikely. :D 20181017 16:38:46<+wesdiscordbot> You're mixing things up. Rovio wasn't ever purchased by a Japanese company. 20181017 16:38:49< hk238> I could just go with "Dame" -> "Baroness" -> "Countess" -> "Duchess" 20181017 16:38:58< hk238> that's possible.. 20181017 16:39:04< hk238> It was supercell that was purchased? 20181017 16:39:10<+wesdiscordbot> just be aware of the order in ranks 20181017 16:39:18<+wesdiscordbot> I don't remember which ones are technically higher than others 20181017 16:39:18<+wesdiscordbot> Supercell was. It was bought by SoftBank. They had to sell them, though. Supercell is now owned by Chinese company, Tencent. 20181017 16:39:29< hk238> oh 20181017 16:39:55< hk238> Although perhaps the Duchess could also be Empress 20181017 16:40:14< hk238> also the Baroness would still be wearing commoners clothing 20181017 16:40:32< hk238> level 2 could be 'Dame' -> "Countess" -> "Empress" 20181017 16:40:44< hk238> and level 1.. Oni-Woman 20181017 16:40:47< hk238> :D 20181017 16:40:52< hk238> I'll make some coffee,brb 20181017 16:42:30< hk238> oh well I guess I can also look up the translations for those terms and figure out what the japanese terms are in the feminine form 20181017 16:43:53< hk238> https://jisho.org/search/duchess 20181017 16:44:06< hk238> Noun 1. duchess potatoes​ 20181017 16:44:09< hk238> gotta be careful here :D 20181017 16:50:23< hk238> seems this one translates duchess as 'kotsuhi' and 'marquess' as 'kotsushiyaku' 20181017 16:50:32< hk238> although my hiragana & katakana reading is quite rusty :D 20181017 16:56:24< hk238> google translator gives romanization 20181017 16:58:19< hk238> 'Kõshaku fujin' for Duchess. But 'baroness' gives 'danshaku' and 'danshaku' was Baron on that Kazoku page so probably doesn't have the feminine form 20181017 16:58:28< hk238> on google translator 20181017 16:59:30< hk238> Fujin is the word for woman, lady 20181017 16:59:54< hk238> so Kõshaku is Duch and + Fujin for Duchess, so it's probably 'Danshaku fujin' similarly 20181017 17:00:14< hk238> but I'm not sure if that's a good title 20181017 17:01:02< hk238> *Duch - Duke 20181017 17:01:05< hk238> D: 20181017 17:02:03< hk238> https://pasteboard.co/HITAWZQ.png 20181017 17:02:07< hk238> any suggestion for this one? 20181017 17:02:54-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20181017 17:04:46-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 17:10:23< hk238> I'll have come up with better names but I'll call the japanese line units "Miss" "Dame" "Countess" and "Empress" for now, although I don't find that a good naming 20181017 17:13:50< Nobun> hk238: don't know if useful: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_empresses 20181017 17:15:03< hk238> it clears the terminology somewhat I think 20181017 17:17:22< hk238> coming up with names is difficult 20181017 17:21:35-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20181017 17:23:17-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 17:23:39< hk238> okay I have finally named the units.. in a horrible fashion 20181017 17:23:41< hk238> but they're named 20181017 17:25:01< hk238> I don't know how to use github 20181017 17:25:53< Nobun> hk238: for a very basic usage I can be helpful 20181017 17:26:03< hk238> okay 20181017 17:26:23< hk238> if I can upload these files to github then I can show the current situation of names more easily 20181017 17:27:03< hk238> github is so hard to use :D 20181017 17:27:36< Nobun> first of all you need a github account 20181017 17:28:55< hk238> I have an account.. And I created a repository 20181017 17:28:59< Nobun> ok 20181017 17:29:02< hk238> and I uploaded files 20181017 17:29:09< hk238> but now I want to delete them, and upload new files 20181017 17:29:40< hk238> it doesn't seem to have a filemanager interface that is very practical 20181017 17:32:36< hk238> nevermind.. It doesn't have a webfilemanager interface apparently 20181017 17:32:44< hk238> instead using commandline is necessary, it seems 20181017 17:34:34< Nobun> hk238: most important git commands are 20181017 17:35:00< Nobun> git add 20181017 17:35:16< Nobun> this is used to add new files but also MODIFIED files 20181017 17:35:41< Nobun> those file will be staged (ready to be committed) 20181017 17:36:04< hk238> this is like I'm using DOS again 20181017 17:36:05< hk238> :D 20181017 17:36:20< Nobun> yeah 20181017 17:36:21< hk238> nevermind I can upload these to an FTP so I dont have to learn all of that stuff 20181017 17:36:28< Nobun> git is a command line tool 20181017 17:36:47< Nobun> the advantage of git is to take track of all changes 20181017 17:37:24< Nobun> the counterside is that it can become painful to use for a non-basic usage 20181017 17:37:42< Nobun> at least for me that I am not a git expert (even if I use it) 20181017 17:38:09<+wesdiscordbot> There are also other version control systems which are usually used with GUI tools, such as Subversion and Mercurial. 20181017 17:38:30< hk238> http://www.anvianet.fi/382/vamp_faction/advancement_tree_2.png 20181017 17:38:40< hk238> I should learn that eventually but for now I uploaded on FTP 20181017 17:38:41<+wesdiscordbot> (Although GitHub only supports Git, so then you'd have to host the code elsewhere.) 20181017 17:38:44< hk238> there's the unit advancement tree 20181017 17:38:53< Nobun> yeah! probably there are also GUI for git. But I usually don't use GUIs 20181017 17:40:42< hk238> nevermind you can't view files on this FTP without direct link without creating some sort of index page 20181017 17:40:42<+wesdiscordbot> Personally I dislike Git. I have an open source project of mine in SourceForge so that I can use Subversion with it. 20181017 17:40:42< hk238> I like the look and feel of git, but it's hard to get started, it gives the impression you can do stuff via the webinterface, while it's really hard and impractical 20181017 17:40:42< hk238> and apparently you need to use some arcane language to describe your wishes in the terminal, or find some third party software 20181017 17:41:06< hk238> nobun anyway the unit line with 4 units are without names, the japanese vampire line.. so I'm trying to name them. And some others have bad names 20181017 17:41:27< hk238> jyrkive so can you recommend a GUI tool I could use with git? 20181017 17:41:31< hk238> subversion? 20181017 17:41:49<+wesdiscordbot> @jyrkive only used git and never svn. However I don't like too much sourceforge. I don't like how ADS are managed. 20181017 17:42:01<+wesdiscordbot> GitHub Desktop is a popular one. 20181017 17:42:02<+wesdiscordbot> https://desktop.github.com/ 20181017 17:42:09< hk238> okay thanks I'll try that 20181017 17:42:20< hk238> I have linux does that work? 20181017 17:42:30< hk238> it shows download for macOS or windows 20181017 17:43:09<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm, looks like it's not available for GNU/Linux. 😦 20181017 17:43:14<+wesdiscordbot> https://help.github.com/desktop/guides/getting-started-with-github-desktop/installing-github-desktop/ 20181017 17:43:20<+wesdiscordbot> "You can install GitHub Desktop on supported Microsoft Windows or OS X operating systems." 20181017 17:43:27< hk238> okay 20181017 17:43:53< Nobun> hk238: this is result google returned me when searching linux guis for linux: https://git-scm.com/download/gui/linux 20181017 17:45:10< hk238> https://github.com/FredrikNoren/ungit 20181017 17:45:12< hk238> that image says it all 20181017 17:45:13< hk238> :D 20181017 17:45:51< hk238> alright nobun I'll try and download something 20181017 17:46:24< Nobun> never tested none of them. As I said I use git from terminal (even if only with basic commands) 20181017 17:47:45< Ravana_> when you work with git alone, all commands you need are "git clone", "git commit -am", "git push" 20181017 17:48:20<+wesdiscordbot> for discord users: I think that the image is saying is this one and not the one showed at discord: https://xkcd.com/1597/ 20181017 17:49:35< Ravana_> you only need advanced git skills to work with others 20181017 17:49:42< Nobun> Ravana_: I use also git merge, git fetch. However I use git add + git commit and I don't use git commit -am alone 20181017 17:49:56< Ravana_> when you are alone, you have nothing to fetch/pull/merge 20181017 17:50:27< hk238> :D 20181017 17:50:32< Nobun> Ravana_: usually not, but sometimes I used them 20181017 17:50:44< hk238> okay so I have this repository, all the files are unnecessary 20181017 17:50:51< hk238> and then I have this folder 20181017 17:50:52<+wesdiscordbot> I use "git diff" heavily at work, including in a codebase I develop alone. 20181017 17:50:55< hk238> :D 20181017 17:51:02<+wesdiscordbot> Always want to double-check my changes before committing. 20181017 17:51:13< Nobun> however you got a point. Usually I used them to commit code I made by myself when sharing in another project 20181017 17:51:47< Ravana_> I use git status at work before pushing anything 20181017 17:51:55< Ravana_> diff I get from intellij already 20181017 17:51:57<+wesdiscordbot> @jyrkive yeah you are right. It is a nice habit 20181017 17:55:40< hk238> mm :p 20181017 17:59:21< hk238> I downloaded GitKraken let's see if this will lead to anything 20181017 18:00:51< hk238> so how can I connect this to the online repository? :p 20181017 18:02:03< hk238> okay I think I may get it slowly 20181017 18:02:03< hk238> :D 20181017 18:05:01< hk238> or not 20181017 18:05:56< hk238> I don't know how to use this either 20181017 18:05:59< hk238> ahhh :D 20181017 18:05:59< vn971> I use per-line adding to git via "git gui" and "gitk" a lot. 20181017 18:06:40< vn971> "git commit -am" is something I never do because I'm afraid of accidental changes I may have done in parallel to main task. 20181017 18:07:13< hk238> so I cloned the repository on my computer 20181017 18:07:15< hk238> then I deleted the files 20181017 18:07:23< hk238> and copied new files into the folder on my computer 20181017 18:07:28< hk238> then I tried the push command 20181017 18:07:32< hk238> but nothing seems to have happened 20181017 18:07:45<+wesdiscordbot> You need to commit first. 20181017 18:07:46< vn971> @jyrkive: yeah, double-checking as well. 20181017 18:07:49< hk238> do I need to use the GUI to make the changes or can I just somehow sync the folder? 20181017 18:07:55< hk238> okay 20181017 18:08:11<+wesdiscordbot> Whereas Subversion "merges and pushes" with one operation, in Git you need to do those steps separately. 20181017 18:08:15< vn971> hk238: personally, I use "git gui" to prepare a commit, and commit it. 20181017 18:08:20<+wesdiscordbot> *commits and pushes 20181017 18:10:15< hk238> hm 20181017 18:10:37< vn971> if anything, "git gui" is a real command, not a search term. Part of the official git package I think. 20181017 18:10:55< hk238> I have somehow staged the changes now 20181017 18:11:00< hk238> but that's not committing apparently? 20181017 18:11:05< vn971> hk238: that's cool, now commit 20181017 18:11:16< hk238> so how does that happen? 20181017 18:11:31< vn971> hk238: yes, you need to commit separately. And after committing, you need to push 👍 20181017 18:11:42< vn971> try "git commit" ? 20181017 18:11:59< vn971> I'm not sure, but I think it'll ask you to enter a commit message in a separate window. 20181017 18:12:06< vn971> I don't know because I use "git gui". 20181017 18:12:16< hk238> oh I need to write a message sorry 20181017 18:12:21< vn971> * I don't remember. Pretty sure it does tho. 20181017 18:12:33< vn971> np, take your time.) 20181017 18:12:36< hk238> okay it worked 20181017 18:12:41< hk238> I can do it now 20181017 18:12:46< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction 20181017 18:12:46< vn971> git push 20181017 18:12:50< hk238> so here's the repository 20181017 18:12:58< hk238> but it doesn't have any WML/Lua yet juts the images 20181017 18:13:12< hk238> and the imagefolder has the names 20181017 18:13:15< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction/tree/master/images 20181017 18:13:35< hk238> so out of lack of better names I named the japanese vampire line as "onna" "dame" "countess" "empress" 20181017 18:13:51< hk238> and I used the lowest level units title as part of the file names so that they grouped 20181017 18:14:02< hk238> like for an example https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction/blob/master/images/vampire_shaman.png 20181017 18:14:04< hk238> advances to 20181017 18:14:10< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction/blob/master/images/vampire_shaman_witch.png 20181017 18:14:27< hk238> but anyway this works now so I can upload them there 20181017 18:14:28< hk238> :D 20181017 18:14:33< vn971> pretty cool images to my tastes ;-) 20181017 18:14:52< hk238> I think the images are reasonably succesful.. but the names are not :D 20181017 18:14:58< hk238> thanks though :p 20181017 18:15:42< hk238> how do you embed graphics into the readme section on github? 20181017 18:18:57< vn971> hk238: you can put them anywhere in the git repo as well, and reference them as normal images 20181017 18:19:22< vn971> like if you want to use images/mage.jpg from README.md 20181017 18:19:55< vn971> then use just the text I wrote: images/mage.jpg If you want, alternatively, ./images/mage.jpg 20181017 18:20:07< hk238> just put that into the readme file? 20181017 18:20:37< vn971> hk238: ok 1 sec 20181017 18:21:09< vn971> hk238: this is the general reference (found by searching "markdown image") https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here/wiki/Markdown-Cheatsheet 20181017 18:21:24< vn971> hk238: there's a section on images: https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here/wiki/Markdown-Cheatsheet#images 20181017 18:21:40< vn971> hk238: and the actual solution: ![alt text](https://github.com/adam-p/markdown-here/raw/master/src/common/images/icon48.png "Logo Title Text 1") 20181017 18:22:11< vn971> This simple version should work I think: ![alt text](images/mage.jpg) 20181017 18:22:37< hk238> okay thanks I book marked the reference markdown 20181017 18:22:46< vn971> if you insert it in your README, people will see the image of images/mage.jpg in your repo) 20181017 18:23:26< hk238> ah yes thanks 20181017 18:25:15< hk238> okay I'll try and write a proper readme file but now afk for a bit 20181017 18:26:21< vn971> hk238: ah, one last thing I wanted to mention. As I feel, nobody (<10%) really reads git repos and README-s, even if you mention them in add-on description. So basically that's lost work if it's more than a very general description, to my tastes. 20181017 18:28:06< hk238> ah you may be right, I was also thinking that if I describe each unit in a structured manner in the readme file, it also gives me some design workflow, so there's some structure to what I want the units to be about and put that down on "paper" 20181017 18:28:18< hk238> also it should be pretty nice to read if I include the unit images alongside 20181017 18:28:20< hk238> anyway brb 20181017 18:32:14< vn971> hk238: yeah, I think this can be nice. Maybe github allows the wesnoth markup thing as well? (Forgot how it's called.) 20181017 18:32:41< vn971> hk238: "pango"! 20181017 18:35:58< vn971> apparently not, pango is probably not supported by github. 20181017 18:37:55-!- mattsc [~mattsc@wesnoth/developer/mattsc] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 18:38:15<+wesdiscordbot> Results of all 7 factions has been published. Good job me. 20181017 18:47:10< hk238> what results are you talking about Hejnewar? :p 20181017 18:47:54<+wesdiscordbot> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=48908&p=633877#p633877 20181017 18:49:56< hk238> :D 20181017 18:50:56< hk238> what does that predicted Win rate mean? :o 20181017 18:52:04<+wesdiscordbot> How often vs random given faction will win. 20181017 18:52:45< hk238> I'm reminded by a quote from Goethe by this, it was something along the lines of that.. That one should not look for the general in the individual, since the generic is a property of the whole, not of the individual 20181017 18:52:56< hk238> that's a really innacurate quote, but the idea is very similar 20181017 18:53:33< hk238> this reminds me of that because these statistics that are like sort of averages over the multitude of units, are some general truths 20181017 18:54:07< hk238> like the relationship between abstractions and their low level representations.. this is a similar kind of thing 20181017 18:54:35<+wesdiscordbot> In thread there are statistics posted from some matches (1k+). 20181017 18:54:45<+wesdiscordbot> I think i posted them in last post. 20181017 18:55:15<+wesdiscordbot> I'm pretty happy with results i need to say. 20181017 18:56:05< hk238> there's a lot of statistics here 20181017 18:57:06< hk238> if you're interested another way to represent these information would be an opposing strategies representation 20181017 18:57:28< hk238> So you could define this 'miniature' wesnoth game where are like the 6 sides 20181017 18:57:35<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah but there is small section that displays just that: Factions rating 20181017 18:57:49< hk238> and then you imagine for an example, undead's choice of skeleton 20181017 18:57:58< hk238> then you look at some other faction 20181017 18:58:02< hk238> and choose a unit 20181017 18:58:04< hk238> say troll 20181017 18:58:40< hk238> and then calculate similar values, like if skeleton is attacking the troll, what are the stats, if troll is attacking the skeleton, what are the stats.. since both units have only type of attack I guess it goes both ways in that example 20181017 18:58:54<+wesdiscordbot> Well its pretty easy to do. 20181017 18:59:12< hk238> then you could for an example determine what's the best response for the other player 20181017 18:59:39< hk238> so what's undead's best response to a troll.. and what's orcs best response to a skeleton 20181017 18:59:47< hk238> then you would have a map 20181017 19:00:21< hk238> like basically arrows connecting the list of units to the best response for the opponent 20181017 19:01:25<+wesdiscordbot> I kind do not want to do that or at least post that. 20181017 19:01:36< hk238> right sorry :o 20181017 19:02:23< hk238> what I mean is like 20181017 19:02:41< hk238> if you can calculate a score like that which goes both ways, if player 1 is attacking, or if player 2 is attacking 20181017 19:03:15< hk238> then you can basically represent the possible combination of strategies as a mapping of some sort 20181017 19:04:25< hk238> for an example let's say troll hp costs something like 3hp / 1 gold (excluding upkeep and regeneration ) 20181017 19:04:57< hk238> and skeleton hp costs something like 2.3hp / 1 gold 20181017 19:05:09< hk238> that provides weights for the hp 20181017 19:05:18< hk238> then you have troll dealing on offensive 20181017 19:05:47< hk238> I don't remember what it is 20181017 19:06:08< hk238> anyway 120% the base damage 20181017 19:06:30< hk238> so let's say th etroll damage was 6-2 I think it was 7-2 or 8-2 ..:... weird 20181017 19:07:07< hk238> 7-2 and 8-2 for strong trolls 20181017 19:07:53< hk238> well nevermind it gets complex 20181017 19:08:00< hk238> but there's all kinds of maps you can draw to represent these 20181017 19:08:09< hk238> so for an example if someone spends 50% gold on skeletons, 50% on darkadepts 20181017 19:08:15< hk238> and you have those vectors calculated 20181017 19:08:23< hk238> then you can take the average of those vectors 20181017 19:09:01<+wesdiscordbot> I already tried to do that when I was working on EoMa. (arrows best counters etc.) but at that time i did not use as much math. Its very time consuming and complicated. Reasults were ok but not as good as i did now. Ok, i can post that just give me a second. 20181017 19:09:02<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442775044590927873/502196348754329630/unknown.png 20181017 19:09:02< hk238> it won't accurately represent the complex interactions like, the player decisions that determine how much defense the units have, if the attacker can cover the ranged units melee units after attacking 20181017 19:09:48< hk238> but still it can represent the overall strategic advantages some combination of units has 20181017 19:09:52<+wesdiscordbot> I did some simmilar simulations of battle where i was tring to see how good lvl 3 an2 units are. 20181017 19:10:02< hk238> like for an example I was playing afterlife with elder 20181017 19:10:05< hk238> so he has the sky kingdom 20181017 19:10:08< hk238> he recruits a bunch of golems 20181017 19:10:10< hk238> I have the tharis 20181017 19:10:18< hk238> so well golems have -20% impact and resistance to pretty much everything 20181017 19:10:26< hk238> well I recruited mostly hydras 20181017 19:10:42< hk238> hydras have 10% impact resistance for the golems melee, and they deal impact damage which the golems don't resist very well 20181017 19:11:12< hk238> so if you have that kind of map, you can like look predict the primary counter to a unit, then you can look at what unit would you use against the counter 20181017 19:11:28<+wesdiscordbot> saurian toad spam best tactic :GWsetmyxPeepoEvil: 20181017 19:11:33< hk238> :D 20181017 19:12:04< Nobun> hk238: you mean changing AI in order to let it to recruit best unit? It seems pretty hard. Probably an AI programming (perhaps using lua) could be necessary 20181017 19:12:07<+wesdiscordbot> Hydras are overrated. 20181017 19:12:18< hk238> oh yeah nobun that's one possibility 20181017 19:12:23< hk238> actually for the AI it would be pretty easy 20181017 19:12:28<+wesdiscordbot> I think there is value to change that directly 20181017 19:12:40< hk238> coz the vectors naturally form a neural network since they connect the same way 20181017 19:13:24< hk238> you know (unit_1, unit_2) -> weight 20181017 19:13:34< hk238> in this case, weight can be score for how good the unit is 20181017 19:14:24<+wesdiscordbot> I could do counters, but its a) time consuming b) i would like players to not use that, especialy new players. 20181017 19:14:25< hk238> I mean you could do it by hand basically it doesn't even have to a selective algorithm 20181017 19:20:32< vn971> @BarsukEughen☭, would agree on that, at least partly. Toads are very strong, hard to deal with in Afterlife-like map (survivals, races). 20181017 19:20:33< hk238> I mean for the most simple version you'd have like faction 2's units as an input layer, and then you'd have faction 1's units as an outputlayer, and then you'd like say take the gold amount opponent has spent per unit, put that in the input, and see what units get the best score 20181017 19:21:04<+wesdiscordbot> toads are really nice, but i've seen some better units for afterlife, ehehe 20181017 19:21:06< hk238> of course it's just a very simple way of scoring the units it doesn't invole any complex conditions that way 20181017 19:22:05< hk238> I'll try and write this readme file now :o 20181017 19:22:08< vn971> @Hejnewar: well hydras can be good in afterlife in the regard that they are draining. Which can be good against living enemies, because enemies are scaled down by copying at first. 20181017 19:22:17< vn971> but not OP, no. 20181017 19:22:29<+wesdiscordbot> I just do not like the swarm part. 20181017 19:22:43<+wesdiscordbot> the most op things i've seen in afterlife so far are kamikadze 20181017 19:22:53< vn971> @Hejnewar: it can indeed weaken the situation a lot. 20181017 19:23:04<+wesdiscordbot> no matter what, they'll wipe out few enemy units and won't give any XP 20181017 19:23:10<+wesdiscordbot> plox nerf 20181017 19:23:19<+wesdiscordbot> Just disable. xd 20181017 19:23:21<+wesdiscordbot> :GWsetmyxPeepoWeird: 20181017 19:23:43< vn971> @BarsukEughen☭: only saw them once, and surprisingly, I think the kami side lost. Drakes are very good as well -- the ones that you buy as lvl2 right from start. Both marksman melee and ranged damage. 20181017 19:23:54<+wesdiscordbot> Swarm doesnt seem so bad on first glanece, but when you play with it it just feels bad. 20181017 19:24:11<+wesdiscordbot> kamikadze are extremely op lategame 20181017 19:24:20< vn971> @Hejnewar: yeah, swarm can be really bad. 20181017 19:24:28<+wesdiscordbot> once you get "defenders" up and at least five kamikadze units 20181017 19:25:04< vn971> BarsukEughen☭: yeah, the player used a different strategy. Something much more risky IIRC. Like having lots of kami-s from the start? Not sure. 20181017 19:25:29<+wesdiscordbot> this looks bad, since you'll most likely loose kamikadzez 20181017 19:25:35<+wesdiscordbot> Lets go ful kami 😄 20181017 19:25:51<+wesdiscordbot> ful kami masterrace :GWfroggyPepoThumb: 20181017 19:26:56<+wesdiscordbot> the elemental gates are really strong too 20181017 19:27:10<+wesdiscordbot> since they have no upkeep, you can spam them endlesslly 20181017 19:27:23<+wesdiscordbot> and there's always a lot of XP around 20181017 19:27:39<+wesdiscordbot> you can pump out ten air elementals out of all sudden in single turn 20181017 19:28:22<+wesdiscordbot> units which ignore ZOC are extremely OP in general 20181017 19:30:34<+wesdiscordbot> That is why in def they are rather poor stated for thier cost. 20181017 19:31:35<+wesdiscordbot> one fun bug i spotted is goblin caravans spawning units over to other side due to "spawn in circle" mechanics 20181017 19:31:43< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction 20181017 19:31:52< hk238> vn971 what do you think, did I get how the markup works? 20181017 19:31:52< hk238> :D 20181017 19:32:34<+wesdiscordbot> goblin caravans ? 20181017 19:32:50<+wesdiscordbot> ye 20181017 19:32:55<+wesdiscordbot> the golden era units 20181017 19:33:12<+wesdiscordbot> Ah i was still thinking about EoMa. 20181017 19:34:39<+wesdiscordbot> :GWfroggyPepoSmug: 20181017 19:35:07< hk238> eoma undead vs eoma dwarves officially ended in a draw.. we played with elder and the outcome was that there was no room to spawn more units and both lost :D 20181017 19:39:38< vn971> hk238: hmm.. If you wanted to inline images right into the page, you have to do it a tad differently. Like this: 20181017 19:39:38< vn971> ![vampire_noble](images/vampire_noble.png) 20181017 19:39:38< vn971> instead of: [vampire_noble]:[images/vampire_noble.png] 20181017 19:39:58< hk238> yes I'm finding out slowly 20181017 19:41:11< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction 20181017 19:41:14< hk238> a little better.. 20181017 19:41:15< hk238> :D 20181017 19:43:03< hk238> okay now it works.. yay 20181017 19:43:12< vn971> is better! 20181017 19:43:12< vn971> (Though then again, as I said, I don't really think people read git a lot..) 20181017 19:52:04< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction - updated 20181017 19:52:09< hk238> you're probably right 20181017 19:52:24< hk238> but this also helps with design so I can look at the page and think about things in a bit more organized fashion 20181017 19:53:00< hk238> also I'll get banned from github for making 50 commits with 0 programming involved (at this rate) 20181017 19:53:02< hk238> :D 20181017 19:54:05<+wesdiscordbot> eh 20181017 19:54:14< hk238> just joking :p 20181017 19:54:30<+wesdiscordbot> i had like 40 edits all about removing/adding same row of code 20181017 19:54:37<+wesdiscordbot> pretty sure not banned still 20181017 19:54:44<+wesdiscordbot> hehe 20181017 19:56:41-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20181017 19:59:07-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 20:04:46< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction 20181017 20:04:55< hk238> soon I got the units on the mainpage 20181017 20:04:59< hk238> then I can start filling in the details 20181017 20:05:09< hk238> and once I got some sort of sketch I can start making the WML files 20181017 20:09:28< hk238> hm 20181017 20:24:12< hk238> okay units are written into the readme 20181017 20:24:26< hk238> but this is just half the units since support units still need to be made 20181017 20:29:32< hk238> could include my cat as a unit 20181017 20:29:42<+wesdiscordbot> cat? 20181017 20:29:44< hk238> with the special feature that it won't necessarily move even if the player wants him to move 20181017 20:29:51< hk238> :D 20181017 20:29:58< hk238> not seriously 20181017 20:30:04< hk238> just a joke 20181017 20:30:12< hk238> he is stubborn 20181017 20:36:00< hk238> think the shaman -> witch line could have some arcane resistance 20181017 20:36:06< hk238> while other vampires would have arcane penalty 20181017 20:49:19< hk238> trying to draw a vampire tree........... this is weird 20181017 20:57:19< hk238> vampire cherry tree 20181017 20:59:18< hk238> creepy 20181017 21:00:14-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20181017 21:00:54< hk238> https://pasteboard.co/HIV9W9m.png 20181017 21:00:55< hk238> :D 20181017 21:01:04< hk238> I think it's a failure 20181017 21:01:15< hk238> looks like a bush and perspective is weird, it's kind of twisted too 20181017 21:01:31< hk238> I'll have to try again 20181017 21:02:26-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20181017 21:03:55< hk238> speaking of which one of my first programming projects was a tree generator with javascript :D it's pretty ugly 20181017 21:03:58< hk238> http://www.anvianet.fi/382/ 20181017 21:04:05< hk238> you can rotate it by dragging with mouse but it works poorly 20181017 21:11:58< hk238> by the way can you define movement type details directly in the unit files? 20181017 21:28:40< hk238> https://github.com/n832sv/wesnoth_vampire_faction a tiny bit of progress 20181017 21:35:41< hk238> however today I learned to use github (with some help from here) so that's great progress 20181017 21:35:42< hk238> :D 20181017 22:13:44-!- Nobun [~user@51.179.110.13] has quit [Quit: ronf] 20181017 22:20:42-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20181017 23:36:12-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] --- Log closed Thu Oct 18 00:00:44 2018